Author Topic: Were We Spoiled by Portnoy's Overplaying?  (Read 9601 times)

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Offline erwinrafael

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Re: Were We Spoiled by Portnoy's Overplaying?
« Reply #70 on: March 03, 2019, 08:20:19 AM »
To me Hell’s Kitchen does it. Every single hit counts in that song. That MP at his best IMO.

Yes, great part. Also the beginning of Misunderstood. MP from the start was a big part of why I got in DT. Then things changed. Maybe he just hit a wall. Maybe he was so burnt out on being the voice and "leader" of DT that he put the drumming on the back burner. It was like he was bored with just being the drummer where I thought he did an amazing job for a long time.

The beginning of Misunderstood? That play your hi hats activrely while the others are playing somber music kind of drumming?

Offline KevShmev

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Re: Were We Spoiled by Portnoy's Overplaying?
« Reply #71 on: March 03, 2019, 08:22:52 AM »
I agree about Hell's Kitchen and Misunderstood.  Portnoy's playing in both of those songs is tremendous and very tasteful.

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Re: Were We Spoiled by Portnoy's Overplaying?
« Reply #72 on: March 03, 2019, 09:42:30 AM »
People have mentioned ‘Blind Faith’ as an example of over playing.....for me.....Blind Faith is the pinnacle of MP’s playing. It’s the ‘perfect song’ if you want to showcase his drumming capability and style. I think his drumming in that song is PERFECT.....perfectly compliments every section of music and it’s utterly beautiful, powerful and virtuosic. Blind Faith remains a top 5 DT song of all time, because they all are on point in that song.
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Offline Dream Team

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Re: Were We Spoiled by Portnoy's Overplaying?
« Reply #73 on: March 03, 2019, 09:57:43 AM »
People have mentioned ‘Blind Faith’ as an example of over playing.....for me.....Blind Faith is the pinnacle of MP’s playing. It’s the ‘perfect song’ if you want to showcase his drumming capability and style. I think his drumming in that song is PERFECT.....perfectly compliments every section of music and it’s utterly beautiful, powerful and virtuosic. Blind Faith remains a top 5 DT song of all time, because they all are on point in that song.

YES. People who want minimalist, understated drumming in prog are listening to the wrong genre.

Offline bill1971

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Re: Were We Spoiled by Portnoy's Overplaying?
« Reply #74 on: March 03, 2019, 12:55:38 PM »
To me Hell’s Kitchen does it. Every single hit counts in that song. That MP at his best IMO.

Yes, great part. Also the beginning of Misunderstood. MP from the start was a big part of why I got in DT. Then things changed. Maybe he just hit a wall. Maybe he was so burnt out on being the voice and "leader" of DT that he put the drumming on the back burner. It was like he was bored with just being the drummer where I thought he did an amazing job for a long time.

The beginning of Misunderstood? That play your hi hats activrely while the others are playing somber music kind of drumming?

Yes. There are more than just high hats though. It's very tasteful I think. I'm more of a Mangini fan than a Portnoy fan but I have to give credit where credit is due.

Offline lucidlydreaming

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Re: Were We Spoiled by Portnoy's Overplaying?
« Reply #75 on: March 03, 2019, 06:02:22 PM »
I just re-listened to Misunderstood and I feel like those octobans in the beginning don't belong there.  But that's just me. 

Offline FlyingBIZKIT

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Re: Were We Spoiled by Portnoy's Overplaying?
« Reply #76 on: March 03, 2019, 06:06:54 PM »
I just re-listened to Misunderstood and I feel like those octobans in the beginning don't belong there.  But that's just me.

Octobans always belong.. listen to how tasty they sound!

Offline erwinrafael

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Re: Were We Spoiled by Portnoy's Overplaying?
« Reply #77 on: March 03, 2019, 07:23:59 PM »
I just re-listened to Misunderstood and I feel like those octobans in the beginning don't belong there.  But that's just me.

Not just you.

Offline Volante99

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Re: Were We Spoiled by Portnoy's Overplaying?
« Reply #78 on: March 03, 2019, 08:48:34 PM »
People have mentioned ‘Blind Faith’ as an example of over playing.....for me.....Blind Faith is the pinnacle of MP’s playing. It’s the ‘perfect song’ if you want to showcase his drumming capability and style. I think his drumming in that song is PERFECT.....perfectly compliments every section of music and it’s utterly beautiful, powerful and virtuosic. Blind Faith remains a top 5 DT song of all time, because they all are on point in that song.

Agreed, great playing by Portnoy here. He really drives the song here and elevates it. It’s over the top, no doubt, but so is the everything else in that song! Portnoy pretty much crushed everything from SDOIT through 8VM in my book.

Offline bill1971

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Re: Were We Spoiled by Portnoy's Overplaying?
« Reply #79 on: March 03, 2019, 08:51:45 PM »
I just re-listened to Misunderstood and I feel like those octobans in the beginning don't belong there.  But that's just me.

I like them. What doesn't belong there is the entire end of the song.

Offline erwinrafael

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Re: Were We Spoiled by Portnoy's Overplaying?
« Reply #80 on: March 03, 2019, 10:06:41 PM »
I just re-listened to Misunderstood and I feel like those octobans in the beginning don't belong there.  But that's just me.

I like them. What doesn't belong there is the entire end of the song.

But it's the end of the song that musically made sense compared to the octobans given what the narrative of the song.

People have mentioned ‘Blind Faith’ as an example of over playing.....for me.....Blind Faith is the pinnacle of MP’s playing. It’s the ‘perfect song’ if you want to showcase his drumming capability and style. I think his drumming in that song is PERFECT.....perfectly compliments every section of music and it’s utterly beautiful, powerful and virtuosic. Blind Faith remains a top 5 DT song of all time, because they all are on point in that song.

Agreed, great playing by Portnoy here. He really drives the song here and elevates it. It’s over the top, no doubt, but so is the everything else in that song! Portnoy pretty much crushed everything from SDOIT through 8VM in my book.

Over the top to the point that one doesn't notice Jordan's solo unless you focus on it. And that is not the point of the rhythm section.

Offline 1neeto

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Re: Were We Spoiled by Portnoy's Overplaying?
« Reply #81 on: March 03, 2019, 11:10:12 PM »
As for overplaying I’m the finally free outro, I think it’s right there at the line of being almost too much when putting the whole album into context. It brings this uncertain tension that seems to go nowhere because of the fade out, but it sets the listener perfectly for what happens next. You can picture Nicholas just getting home and relaxing, but you as a listener are not relaxed because of that unresolved tension from the outro. Maybe the drumming it’s a bit too much, but the desired effect is reached quite perfectly.

Now the last minute of About To Crash from 6DOIT, he could’ve chilled with the double kicks. It adds nothing to JP’s melodic soloing. Or maybe that’s part of the “inner turbulence”.

Offline gzarruk

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Re: Were We Spoiled by Portnoy's Overplaying?
« Reply #82 on: March 04, 2019, 05:20:53 AM »
Now the last minute of About To Crash from 6DOIT, he could’ve chilled with the double kicks. It adds nothing to JP’s melodic soloing. Or maybe that’s part of the “inner turbulence”.

That’s a cool way of seeing it, and it actually makes sense, but everything makes sense if we start over analyzing like that :lol
It sounds like, "ruk, ruk, ruk, ruk, ruk." Instead of the more pleasing kick drum sound of, "gzarruk, gzarruk, gzarruk, gzarruk."

Offline darkshade

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Re: Were We Spoiled by Portnoy's Overplaying?
« Reply #83 on: March 04, 2019, 09:52:22 AM »
Warning: rant ahead. Decided to put on DT12 yesterday, and it still doesn't excite me like other DT albums do. I know all the tunes at this point, I've warmed up to the first few tracks, but the rest is just OK or samey, but decent metal tunes. I really don't like the closing epic, it's not well put together, but it has a lot of cool parts. It's a heavy riffy song that has these two sections of music in the middle that do not belong, with a nice secret ending which should have been longer. It is a big red flag that Portnoy was the master arranger in the music. Even now with DOT, and I like the new album, there are still these moments of technicality for the sake of it, or crazy time signatures everywhere, without regard to how it affects the flow of the song. Same with ADTOE which I also enjoy. It's why I don't think Planet X is super amazing, at least a full album of them, it's all head music with a dash of jazz thrown in. I still also hear moments in DOT where it's like "oh that's a thing they do now" whether it's chord progression choices, or whatnot.

It has nothing to do with 'influences on their sleeves' as we still get that during the Mangini era. I think MP was the filter and arranger, and I still think nothing released since BC&SL is "great". All IMO of course. There's been some good tunes for sure, but I think I still would have been fine with a 5-6 year break instead of getting the last 4 albums, even as I still am in the honeymoon phase of the new album. Imagine the band came back last year with all the ideas they came up with over the past 9 years (all the raw material from ADTOE-DT12-TA-DOT mixed with ideas MP would have, and I don't think he'd be as much about bringing in extreme metal or U2 influences at this point) to make a massive album that would probably have competed with I&W or Six Degrees but with MP on drums. I think the one individual album would be better than the combined forces of the last 4 albums.

The thing with Mangini is he's a tech-metal drummer whereas MP is a prog-rock/metal drummer who had more creative control over the music than just about any other drummer I can think of, and I think that changes a lot of aspects of Dream Theater that I always thought were more unique to the band than other bands out there, prog, rock, metal, or otherwise. Losing Kevin Moore was tough on the band's sound, because he had a styles you don't find in keyboardists post-early 90s, but early Rudess was great. I think after 8vm they just all went through the motions, though. That, and trying to be 'current' messed up their sound. I would have rather the band totally reinvent their sound instead of pushing for the modern metal sound they went for on SC, or the "return to roots" style of the last few albums, which I don't think is accurate anyway as the music now is darker, more brooding. Sure they've brought in lighter, more melodic, major key stuff back on recent albums, but at best it reminds me of that kind of stuff from Six Degrees, not I&W or Awake. But I want the band to be progressive. They don't have to reinvent the wheel or anything, but the last few albums seem"regressive" or just a mix-and-match of what they had been doing with Portnoy on the last couple of albums with him. The Astonishing wasn't this, we can talk further on that if you want. Anyway, I ranted too long, no time to edit.

Offline KevShmev

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Re: Were We Spoiled by Portnoy's Overplaying?
« Reply #84 on: March 04, 2019, 10:07:46 AM »
Over the top to the point that one doesn't notice Jordan's solo unless you focus on it. And that is not the point of the rhythm section.

Speak for yourself. I had to go back and listen to that part to see what Portnoy was doing underneath JR's solo.

And you are aware that the entire band is almost always doing all kinds of cool things during solo sections, right?  That has been their M.O. since the first album.  Look, I know you are a Mangini guy, and maybe you think the drummer should always do what Mangini did at the end of A New Beginning (play it straight, which worked very well in that instance), but solo sections with Dream Theater have almost always been "band solos," even if one guy takes the lead at one point or another.  They are rarely a band where one guy solos and the rest just play along quietly in the background.

Offline Kyo

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Re: Were We Spoiled by Portnoy's Overplaying?
« Reply #85 on: March 04, 2019, 10:38:58 AM »
It's a heavy riffy song that has these two sections of music in the middle that do not belong, with a nice secret ending which should have been longer. It is a big red flag that Portnoy was the master arranger in the music.

First, Portnoy-era DT had plenty of epics that seemed stitched together from unrelated sections. In fact I recall this being a major recurring point of criticism in their later years. It's weird that I've now seen a couple of people bring up Illumination Theory as a negative example for DT's arranging abilities without Portnoy when it's pretty much an outlier in their post-Portnoy discography. They've written 62 songs since Portnoy left and I can only think of two where I've seen that point brought up (PBD being the other), so it hardly seems like a big, recurring problem with their arranging these days.
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Offline Trav86

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Re: Were We Spoiled by Portnoy's Overplaying?
« Reply #86 on: March 04, 2019, 10:45:49 AM »
I agree that Portnoy started overplaying, especially compared to how Mangini approaches the songs.  However I think the mix makes it worse.  The drums are mixed SO LOUD on the Petrucci-Portnoy produced albums.  It cracks me up when people complain about the Mangini albums having the drums mixed too low.  I think we got used to the loud drums on the Portnoy albums, because the drums sit perfectly in the mix on the last few albums.
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Re: Were We Spoiled by Portnoy's Overplaying?
« Reply #87 on: March 04, 2019, 11:01:39 AM »
but solo sections with Dream Theater have almost always been "band solos," even if one guy takes the lead at one point or another.  They are rarely a band where one guy solos and the rest just play along quietly in the background.

This.
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Offline Volante99

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Re: Were We Spoiled by Portnoy's Overplaying?
« Reply #88 on: March 04, 2019, 11:04:29 AM »

The thing with Mangini is he's a tech-metal drummer...

Careful implying that Mangini isn’t a master of literally everything around here lol.

I tried to make a similar point months ago that just maybe prog isn’t Mangini’s “natural habitat” and it was not well received. I still maintain if you want to hear the best Mangini, check out his stints with Annihilator or Extreme.

Offline Thoughtspart3

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Re: Were We Spoiled by Portnoy's Overplaying?
« Reply #89 on: March 04, 2019, 07:55:50 PM »
Ironically, it was MP's overplaying that really struck me when I was first introduced to DT.  I thought, "This drummer is just as much an important part of the band as the other guys."  I felt like MP was speaking through his drums and was not just in the background.  It impressed me that he was out front sometimes and making the drums a focal point.  I overall miss that. 

However, D/T is a BIG improvement. The drums feel like they step out more often and even take the lead sometimes. MP being one of the lead composers really made a difference in the past for the drums.  Giving MM a part in the writing process this time definitely payed off. 

I think after TOT MP was getting tired in general and that is why his playing lacked the dynamics it used to have. He is still capable but needed some new inspiration.   

Offline erwinrafael

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Re: Were We Spoiled by Portnoy's Overplaying?
« Reply #90 on: March 05, 2019, 09:58:49 AM »
Over the top to the point that one doesn't notice Jordan's solo unless you focus on it. And that is not the point of the rhythm section.

Speak for yourself. I had to go back and listen to that part to see what Portnoy was doing underneath JR's solo.

And you are aware that the entire band is almost always doing all kinds of cool things during solo sections, right?  That has been their M.O. since the first album.  Look, I know you are a Mangini guy, and maybe you think the drummer should always do what Mangini did at the end of A New Beginning (play it straight, which worked very well in that instance), but solo sections with Dream Theater have almost always been "band solos," even if one guy takes the lead at one point or another.  They are rarely a band where one guy solos and the rest just play along quietly in the background.

Why would I think that every drummer should always do what Mangini did at the end of ANB? That's not even representative of how Mangini typically drums when another guy is soloing. The outro of S2n is a better example of how he drums under a JR solo. Or R137 of how he drums under a JP solo.

I can not take seriously the comment that JR's keys solo is more noticeable than all those MP hits from 6:54 of 7:30 of Blind Faith. Actually even extending up to 8:22, I can not imagine how somebody would honestly say that MP is not upstaging JR in that portion of the song.

And I am not even comparing MP to MM when I had that reaction. I was comparing this to how MP set the standard on how to drum well without upstaging the keyboard solo with how he drummed underneath KM in Scarred. Or best example yet, how he drummed underneath DS in Trial of Tears. Really, listen to those three keyboard solos and tell me honestly that MP did not overdrum Blind Faith relative to the other songs. Heck, let's even include the JR keyboard solo in the Medicate portion of Octavarium, and it would even pale compared to how he drummed Blind Faith. Which is a sad thing because I think Blind Faith has JR's best key solo in DT.


The thing with Mangini is he's a tech-metal drummer...

Careful implying that Mangini isn’t a master of literally everything around here lol.

I tried to make a similar point months ago that just maybe prog isn’t Mangini’s “natural habitat” and it was not well received. I still maintain if you want to hear the best Mangini, check out his stints with Annihilator or Extreme.

I almost agreed because Mangini is a monster in the Annihilator records.

But his best individual song drumming performance outside DT is Egg Zooming by Mike Keneally, a prog song which made him a legend among drummers when it was released in 1998. That's prog, not tech/metal.

Then his best full album drumming performance outside DT is Into The Great Divide, which feature drumming gems like Challenge Accepted and my favorite Under A Starry Sky. Prog not metal.

And he also did a full album of Rush covers that was well-received.

So I don't think Mangini is a tech-metal drummer. His drumming in S2n should already be enough evidence for DT fans that he is much more than that.

Offline KevShmev

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Re: Were We Spoiled by Portnoy's Overplaying?
« Reply #91 on: March 05, 2019, 10:12:03 AM »
Over the top to the point that one doesn't notice Jordan's solo unless you focus on it. And that is not the point of the rhythm section.

Speak for yourself. I had to go back and listen to that part to see what Portnoy was doing underneath JR's solo.

And you are aware that the entire band is almost always doing all kinds of cool things during solo sections, right?  That has been their M.O. since the first album.  Look, I know you are a Mangini guy, and maybe you think the drummer should always do what Mangini did at the end of A New Beginning (play it straight, which worked very well in that instance), but solo sections with Dream Theater have almost always been "band solos," even if one guy takes the lead at one point or another.  They are rarely a band where one guy solos and the rest just play along quietly in the background.

Why would I think that every drummer should always do what Mangini did at the end of ANB? That's not even representative of how Mangini typically drums when another guy is soloing. The outro of S2n is a better example of how he drums under a JR solo. Or R137 of how he drums under a JP solo.

I can not take seriously the comment that JR's keys solo is more noticeable than all those MP hits from 6:54 of 7:30 of Blind Faith. Actually even extending up to 8:22, I can not imagine how somebody would honestly say that MP is not upstaging JR in that portion of the song.

And I am not even comparing MP to MM when I had that reaction. I was comparing this to how MP set the standard on how to drum well without upstaging the keyboard solo with how he drummed underneath KM in Scarred. Or best example yet, how he drummed underneath DS in Trial of Tears. Really, listen to those three keyboard solos and tell me honestly that MP did not overdrum Blind Faith relative to the other songs. Heck, let's even include the JR keyboard solo in the Medicate portion of Octavarium, and it would even pale compared to how he drummed Blind Faith. Which is a sad thing because I think Blind Faith has JR's best key solo in DT.

Portnoy did not over drum the keyboard solo in Blind Faith relative to the other songs.  Honestly.

Offline Rammstein

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Re: Were We Spoiled by Portnoy's Overplaying?
« Reply #92 on: March 05, 2019, 10:24:13 AM »
I just re-listened to Misunderstood and I feel like those octobans in the beginning don't belong there.  But that's just me.

Octobans always belong.. listen to how tasty they sound!

Oh yeah baby! Octobans are the weed of sound, you can't overdose  :lol

no seriously, listen to the longer fills at the end of Instrumedly at Budokan. Thats MP. I really love MM as well, but his octobans sound shitty in comparison, very roomy and not tasty. Hard to describe. I love his sound (not specially the octobans) on D/T though

Offline erwinrafael

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Re: Were We Spoiled by Portnoy's Overplaying?
« Reply #93 on: March 05, 2019, 10:27:44 AM »
Octobans sounded great on Barstool Warrior intro. :)

Offline bosk1

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Re: Were We Spoiled by Portnoy's Overplaying?
« Reply #94 on: March 05, 2019, 10:38:44 AM »
I can not take seriously the comment that JR's keys solo is more noticeable than all those MP hits from 6:54 of 7:30 of Blind Faith. Actually even extending up to 8:22, I can not imagine how somebody would honestly say that MP is not upstaging JR in that portion of the song.

Six Degrees has been my favorite DT album pretty much since release, and I have NEVER felt like MP's drumming upstaged JR in that portion of the song.  The thought never entered my mind.  And listening to it again to make sure I wasn't missing something, I still feel that way.  He breaks into a completely different groove right at the beginning, which is really cool.  But it doesn't upstage the keyboards at all.  It creates some really cool texture underneath that instrumental part of the song.  Sorry you disagree.  But your opinion isn't anywhere close to being universally "correct." 
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Offline lovethedrake

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Re: Were We Spoiled by Portnoy's Overplaying?
« Reply #95 on: March 05, 2019, 11:44:21 AM »
Love Portnoy's drumming on SDOIT and Blind Faith...   upstaging?  This is DT!     

I want all of the guys doing as much technical shit as they can at all times while still keeping good melodies!   


Offline Dream Team

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Re: Were We Spoiled by Portnoy's Overplaying?
« Reply #96 on: March 05, 2019, 12:33:24 PM »
It's a heavy riffy song that has these two sections of music in the middle that do not belong, with a nice secret ending which should have been longer. It is a big red flag that Portnoy was the master arranger in the music.

First, Portnoy-era DT had plenty of epics that seemed stitched together from unrelated sections. In fact I recall this being a major recurring point of criticism in their later years. It's weird that I've now seen a couple of people bring up Illumination Theory as a negative example for DT's arranging abilities without Portnoy when it's pretty much an outlier in their post-Portnoy discography. They've written 62 songs since Portnoy left and I can only think of two where I've seen that point brought up (PBD being the other), so it hardly seems like a big, recurring problem with their arranging these days.

Nailed it.

Offline Zook

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Re: Were We Spoiled by Portnoy's Overplaying?
« Reply #97 on: March 05, 2019, 12:54:39 PM »
Ironically, it was MP's overplaying that really struck me when I was first introduced to DT.  I thought, "This drummer is just as much an important part of the band as the other guys."  I felt like MP was speaking through his drums and was not just in the background.  It impressed me that he was out front sometimes and making the drums a focal point.  I overall miss that. 

However, D/T is a BIG improvement. The drums feel like they step out more often and even take the lead sometimes. MP being one of the lead composers really made a difference in the past for the drums.  Giving MM a part in the writing process this time definitely payed off. 

I think after TOT MP was getting tired in general and that is why his playing lacked the dynamics it used to have. He is still capable but needed some new inspiration.   

Agreed.

Offline darkshade

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Re: Were We Spoiled by Portnoy's Overplaying?
« Reply #98 on: March 05, 2019, 06:45:45 PM »
I would think the only epic would be A Nightmare to Remember sounds stitched together at a couple moments in the second half (guitar/keys solo onward). ACOS and Octavarium aside, nothing wrong with those two epics, the other epics like SDOIT and ITPOE and TCOT all have sections that sound like they belong, or follow a cohesive trajectory. As I said, the individual sections of IT are great, but the ambient and orchestral sections seem thrown in just to make it a longer song. I don't feel like I'm missing anything either, as I like the individual sections for what they are. I think IT would have benefited greatly if the band sat on it for a little while.

Offline Dream Team

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Re: Were We Spoiled by Portnoy's Overplaying?
« Reply #99 on: March 05, 2019, 08:04:46 PM »
ACOS is my fave DT song but I often see criticism of the disjointed sections. Seems like you’re cherry picking.

Offline darkshade

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Re: Were We Spoiled by Portnoy's Overplaying?
« Reply #100 on: March 05, 2019, 09:30:36 PM »
ACOS is my fave DT song but I often see criticism of the disjointed sections. Seems like you’re cherry picking.

It all has purpose though, and is a much better written composition that IT.
ACOS is a tough nut to crack, but nothing feels out of place, no matter how disjointed it sounds. Jordan adding his circus music part live is out of place.

Offline Dedalus

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Re: Were We Spoiled by Portnoy's Overplaying?
« Reply #101 on: March 06, 2019, 01:44:12 AM »
I think MP was the filter and arranger.

Where did he put his filter on BCSL days? Or in SoA?

About disjointed long epics:

For me it works like this:

I like the epic = "very well composed. It flows naturally".

I don't like the epic = "Disjointed".

If you look for lack of cohesion, you will find it.


As I said, the individual sections of IT are great, but the ambient and orchestral sections seem thrown in just to make it a longer song.

Well, yes. But, IMO it is the same on TCOT.





Offline erwinrafael

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Re: Were We Spoiled by Portnoy's Overplaying?
« Reply #102 on: March 06, 2019, 02:26:54 AM »
Illumination Theory has a very logical structure.

Offline Kyo

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Re: Were We Spoiled by Portnoy's Overplaying?
« Reply #103 on: March 06, 2019, 04:04:57 AM »
There are a lot of aspects that make for a well-structured epic:
1. Is there an overall arc to the song or is it just thrown together cool bits?
2. Are the transitions between the sections good?
3. Do the various sections share musical material in a meaningful way?
4. Do the lyrics match the development of the music?
5. Do the lyrics form a coherent whole or are they thrown together from various bits?

Everyone's favorite Octavarium barely even tries when it comes to point 5. Six Degrees hardly fares better. That's what's bound to happen if you just write lots of music first and then split lyricist duties among a number of people with just a very broad theme to link them. A Nightmare to Remember fails hilariously when it comes to point 4. The Ministry of Lost Souls isn't any better, though it is less amusing in its mismatch. Many of DT's epics don't do particularly well when it comes to point 3 (A Change of Seasons, In the Presence of Enemies, The Count of Tuscany, Illumination Theory...).

Compared to (IMO) true masterpieces like Spock's Beard's At the End of the Day or Andromeda's Veil of Illumination it is obvious that DT tend to throw their epics together pretty quickly from unrelated material rather than develop some core material into something bigger. I often like the results anyway, but let's not pretend this approach is the pinnacle of songwriting.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2019, 04:09:59 AM by Kyo »
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Offline bosk1

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Re: Were We Spoiled by Portnoy's Overplaying?
« Reply #104 on: March 06, 2019, 08:29:05 AM »
There are a lot of aspects that make for a well-structured epic:
1. Is there an overall arc to the song or is it just thrown together cool bits?
2. Are the transitions between the sections good?
3. Do the various sections share musical material in a meaningful way?
4. Do the lyrics match the development of the music?
5. Do the lyrics form a coherent whole or are they thrown together from various bits?

^I agree with this.  It's not an exhaustive list.  But in terms of listing a lot of the key factors, I think you nailed it.

And this:
Everyone's favorite Octavarium barely even tries when it comes to point 5. Six Degrees hardly fares better. That's what's bound to happen if you just write lots of music first and then split lyricist duties among a number of people with just a very broad theme to link them. A Nightmare to Remember fails hilariously when it comes to point 4. The Ministry of Lost Souls isn't any better, though it is less amusing in its mismatch. Many of DT's epics don't do particularly well when it comes to point 3 (A Change of Seasons, In the Presence of Enemies, The Count of Tuscany, Illumination Theory...).

After starting off your post so strong, I'm not sure how you arrived at most of those conclusions.   :dunno:  But, hey, opinions.  :lol
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