Were We Spoiled by Portnoy's Overplaying?

[Zook]

Ever since Mangini took over the drums, he's been compared and ridiculed for his style of playing. I myself have said I prefer Portnoy because his drumming has personality and liveliness. Mangini's playing is more precise and subdued, labeling him a drum machine by many. Watching the YouTube Portnoy-wannabe drummer and seeing him add MP's signature fills where there weren't any before made me realize just how much Portnoy did overplay. I mean, I love it, but I believe that style is really what is missing from newer Dream Theater, and I wonder if that is what fans are really clamoring for when they cry, "bring Portnoy back" and "Portnoy was the soul of DT" or whatever.

I'm glad they finally let MM write with them though. The difference is huge.

[Samsara]

I'm not sure "spoiled" is the right word. Portnoy had his own thing going, and MM is a completely different type of drummer (to my non-musician ears). I think the big factor is that Dream Theater plays to a click with Mangini, which means the shows are a little more precise, and less energetic (subjectively). Whereas with Portnoy, they were a lot looser, and that added to the energy level.

It's just a preference thing. I "prefer" MP's style and DT's live vibe with him, but I don't dislike Mangini and the band now either. It's just different.

[Architeuthis]

They're both great drummers and I love both era's of DT. 😎

[Ben_Jamin]

Portnoy also did tend to not play the drums as they are recorded on the album.

That's where I thought he got lazy in the later years of DT.

Also, it's why im glad they got Mangini know his TS and Groove.

[Progmetty]

I'm happier with Mangini's drumming. MP never bothered me and I loved his live vibe but I never really missed him when he left. To me DT is JP & JR, their work got me into DT and I think they're the only irreplaceable members, for my taste.

[Ben_Jamin]

I'm happier with Mangini's drumming. MP never bothered me and I loved his live vibe but I never really missed him when he left. To me DT is JP & JR, their work got me into DT and I think they're the only irreplaceable members, for my taste.

DT will always be JP and JM for me.

[Zook]

They're both great drummers and I love both era's of DT. 😎

No argument there, and this certainly isn't an MP vs MM thread.

[lovethedrake]

I prefer Portnoy... the kits he used just allowed for way more dynamics and he was very creative player. 

Mangini does some things that make me go "whoah" but I prefer the style of Portnoy.

Both are great but I do think we have lost a little of the songwriting power with Portnoy's departure.    Although I like the musical style and direction they have taken with DT, TA, and D/T way more than the 4 preceding albums so maybe it was just a change that needed to be made.

[KevShmev]

Portnoy also did tend to not play the drums as they are recorded on the album.

Whatever personal issues they may or may not have aside, I suspect that is a big reason why John Myung is reportedly happier now with Mangini.  Given how much he practices, I am sure it was maddening for Myung to have his partner in the rhythm section go off script on a regular basis live.

[Ben_Jamin]

I prefer Portnoy... the kits he used just allowed for way more dynamics and he was very creative player. 

Mangini does some things that make me go "whoah" but I prefer the style of Portnoy.

Both are great but I do think we have lost a little of the songwriting power with Portnoy's departure.    Although I like the musical style and direction they have taken with DT, TA, and D/T way more than the 4 preceding albums so maybe it was just a change that needed to be made.

Of course...MP had the personality

I love Mangini due to his personality and how he finally got to have his dream drum placements.

[Ben_Jamin]

Portnoy also did tend to not play the drums as they are recorded on the album.

Whatever personal issues they may or may not have aside, I suspect that is a big reason why John Myung is reportedly happier now with Mangini.  Given how much he practices, I am sure it was maddening for Myung to have his partner in the rhythm section go off script on a regular basis live.

I agree...I bet Myung likes to jam his heart out to, but its hard when the drummer keeps doing unexpected things.

[Zook]

Honestly I never really noticed him playing that differently live. Was this something he did just at non filmed shows?

[Progmetty]

Portnoy also did tend to not play the drums as they are recorded on the album.

Whatever personal issues they may or may not have aside, I suspect that is a big reason why John Myung is reportedly happier now with Mangini.  Given how much he practices, I am sure it was maddening for Myung to have his partner in the rhythm section go off script on a regular basis live.

I agree...I bet Myung likes to jam his heart out to, but its hard when the drummer keeps doing unexpected things.

An old Egyptian bass player from a popular Jazz band once told me "My biggest enemy is a drummer who thinks he needs to be creative"

[jayvee3]

As drummers, I liked both, but prefer MM. I can just flat out hear the precision and talent in what he does. Whether or not it’s true, as I’m no drummer, I kinda get this feel that MM could play anything MP can come up with no issue, but I’m not sure MP could do what MM can. To me, D/T is something that highlights just how off the charts MM’s talent is...

[wolfking]

I honestly have never cared.  MM is the drummer now and the band seem happy to finish their careers with him, and I have no problem with him.  I loved Portnoy too, but really makes no difference to me at all.  It's the music and the songs I care about.  I mean it's been almost 10 years and I can't believe people still carry on about it. (not you Zook, I know which angle you are coming from.)

[Evai]

I wonder if Petrucci secretly hated the Finally Free outro

[porcacultor]

Honestly I never really noticed him playing that differently live. Was this something he did just at non filmed shows?

I have an example, though it's more nitpicky and doesn't truly affect the flow of the song: compare the studio version and the Live at Budokan versions of the intro to As I Am. There's a clear development in the drum fill patterns in the studio version and, in the live version, MP plays the 4th and final fill third, inventing something else for the fourth and final fill live.

It doesn't change much, but it's just a recorded example of how he would go off-script at times if you were curious.

[gzarruk]

Portnoy also did tend to not play the drums as they are recorded on the album.

Whatever personal issues they may or may not have aside, I suspect that is a big reason why John Myung is reportedly happier now with Mangini.  Given how much he practices, I am sure it was maddening for Myung to have his partner in the rhythm section go off script on a regular basis live.

This. Something that really stood out to me were the amazing bass and drum parts in DT12, like JM and Mike took special time crafting their parts together, just listen to the solo sections on TLG and STR, or THAT part after the slow break in IT. The new album has a very tight rhythmic section too. As a bassist and drummer myself, these things speak tons to me about the great musical chemistry between Mike and John.

As good as a drummer Portnoy is, he's more of the "look at me" kind instead of a "let's groove out butts of" kind.

[DT2003]

Honestly I never really noticed him playing that differently live. Was this something he did just at non filmed shows?

I never noticed if either. In fact I thought he was very true to the original and if anything added a bit extra. Definitely never thought he was lazy in the least bit though.

[SystematicThought]

I have an example, though it's more nitpicky and doesn't truly affect the flow of the song: compare the studio version and the Live at Budokan versions of the intro to As I Am. There's a clear development in the drum fill patterns in the studio version and, in the live version, MP plays the 4th and final fill third, inventing something else for the fourth and final fill live.

It doesn't change much, but it's just a recorded example of how he would go off-script at times if you were curious.

I seem to remember MP saying that it was an honest mistake on his part and he didn't mean to flip those parts around. He knew he screwed up

[Dedalus]

Well, yes. Not in a bizarre way like the Portnoy-boy but in a certain sense yes.

I like him less today than I ever did. I don't know, people change.
I give an example with another musician: Brann Dailor.
I'm sure I've already uttered the phrase "I love Mastodon and the drummer is my favorite band member". Ten years later I found myself thinking, "Wow, Brann, can you play less?" 

Anyway, different musicians.

[erwinrafael]

Mike Portnoy is one of the best composers of drum parts ever. My all-time favorite drumming album is AWAKE, because MP's drum composition skills there were immaculate. No wasted hits whatsoever. He assigns drum parts that are distinct and fit for every section. MP may have fallen under my radar because of the flash of Metropolis Pt. 1, but boy, does MP know how to write drum parts. It stayed that way up to FII. Peruvian Skies and Trial of Tears has those signature "distinct drum part for every section" style of composition.

Later on, though, MP became enamored with the flash. It first hit me with that snare fill in Fatal Tragedy (you know what I'm talking about). It's like my first experience of MP really trying to call attention to himself instead of playing for the song. Of course, there's the Finally Free outro.

By the time SDOIT came out, I am already getting distracted by a lot of MP's "look-at-me" drumming. The hi-hats in Misunderstood. MP's drum exhibition during Jordan's solo in Blind Faith. First time I heard it, I was going, "Damn it, Mike, I am focusing on what Jordan's doing!"

But the fans love the flash. When asked to name favorite MP drum parts, many fans point to the flash. The air-drummable stuff. The TDOE, the Finally Free, Blind Faith, TGD, HTF flashy stuff. Nobody points to Awake. MP still produced a lot of composition gems, like the SDOIT song, and 8VM. There are songs that balanced composition and flash, like Stream of Consciousness.  But I guess MP wants to give what the fans want, so he just drummed to the air-drumming crowd, and he lost me by the time Systematic Chaos came out. I remember many fans going gaga over his drumming in the final third of TCoT, and I freaking can not understand why such drumming that's competing with JP's guitar was fawned over. I mean, listen to how Mangini supported JP in the AWE outro.

[nobloodyname]

I have an example, though it's more nitpicky and doesn't truly affect the flow of the song: compare the studio version and the Live at Budokan versions of the intro to As I Am. There's a clear development in the drum fill patterns in the studio version and, in the live version, MP plays the 4th and final fill third, inventing something else for the fourth and final fill live.

It doesn't change much, but it's just a recorded example of how he would go off-script at times if you were curious.

I seem to remember MP saying that it was an honest mistake on his part and he didn't mean to flip those parts around. He knew he screwed up

It's in the commentary track on the Budokan drumcam DVD. He says something like, "man, it's a massive show, and I mess up the intro!".

[nobloodyname]

Mike Portnoy is one of the best composers of drum parts ever.

Hell is definitely freezing over today, folks!

[Öxölklöfför]

Mike Portnoy is one of the best composers of drum parts ever. My all-time favorite drumming album is AWAKE, because MP's drum composition skills there were immaculate. No wasted hits whatsoever. He assigns drum parts that are distinct and fit for every section. MP may have fallen under my radar because of the flash of Metropolis Pt. 1, but boy, does MP know how to write drum parts. It stayed that way up to FII. Peruvian Skies and Trial of Tears has those signature "distinct drum part for every section" style of composition.

Later on, though, MP became enamored with the flash. It first hit me with that snare fill in Fatal Tragedy (you know what I'm talking about). It's like my first experience of MP really trying to call attention to himself instead of playing for the song. Of course, there's the Finally Free outro.

By the time SDOIT came out, I am already getting distracted by a lot of MP's "look-at-me" drumming. The hi-hats in Misunderstood. MP's drum exhibition during Jordan's solo in Blind Faith. First time I heard it, I was going, "Damn it, Mike, I am focusing on what Jordan's doing!"

But the fans love the flash. When asked to name favorite MP drum parts, many fans point to the flash. The air-drummable stuff. The TDOE, the Finally Free, Blind Faith, TGD, HTF flashy stuff. Nobody points to Awake. MP still produced a lot of composition gems, like the SDOIT song, and 8VM. There are songs that balanced composition and flash, like Stream of Consciousness.  But I guess MP wants to give what the fans want, so he just drummed to the air-drumming crowd, and he lost me by the time Systematic Chaos came out. I remember many fans going gaga over his drumming in the final third of TCoT, and I freaking can not understand why such drumming that's competing with JP's guitar was fawned over. I mean, listen to how Mangini supported JP in the AWE outro.

Very well put! Maybe I wouldn't agree on "ever", but he has indeed composed some very fitting drum parts in the earlier days, and it kind of went downhill after (and somewhat during) SFAM. My favourite drum part by MP is the one in the bridge in TTT ("The unbroken spirit..."). Very creative.

[erwinrafael]

Mike Portnoy is one of the best composers of drum parts ever.

Hell is definitely freezing over today, folks!

Exhibit A of a perfect drum composition: The Mirror

Exhibit B: Peruvian Skies

Exhibit C: Trial of Tears

[MirrorMask]

I never had a problem with the Finally Free outro, as an album closer, it's quite bombastic and dramatic.

[nobloodyname]

Mike Portnoy is one of the best composers of drum parts ever.

Hell is definitely freezing over today, folks!

Exhibit A of a perfect drum composition: The Mirror

Exhibit B: Peruvian Skies

Exhibit C: Trial of Tears

Oh, I absolutely agree with you

I'm just not sure I've ever heard you say anything positive about Portnoy's playing before

[majo]

Def prefer MP.
MM is most boring (musically) DT member to date imho...

[erwinrafael]

Mike Portnoy is one of the best composers of drum parts ever.

Hell is definitely freezing over today, folks!

Exhibit A of a perfect drum composition: The Mirror

Exhibit B: Peruvian Skies

Exhibit C: Trial of Tears

Oh, I absolutely agree with you

I'm just not sure I've ever heard you say anything positive about Portnoy's playing before

Well, it depends on who is this MP we are talking about.

[porcacultor]

I have an example, though it's more nitpicky and doesn't truly affect the flow of the song: compare the studio version and the Live at Budokan versions of the intro to As I Am. There's a clear development in the drum fill patterns in the studio version and, in the live version, MP plays the 4th and final fill third, inventing something else for the fourth and final fill live.

It doesn't change much, but it's just a recorded example of how he would go off-script at times if you were curious.

I seem to remember MP saying that it was an honest mistake on his part and he didn't mean to flip those parts around. He knew he screwed up

It's in the commentary track on the Budokan drumcam DVD. He says something like, "man, it's a massive show, and I mess up the intro!".

Appreciate the correction!

[KevShmev]

Mike Portnoy is one of the best composers of drum parts ever. My all-time favorite drumming album is AWAKE, because MP's drum composition skills there were immaculate. No wasted hits whatsoever. He assigns drum parts that are distinct and fit for every section. MP may have fallen under my radar because of the flash of Metropolis Pt. 1, but boy, does MP know how to write drum parts. It stayed that way up to FII. Peruvian Skies and Trial of Tears has those signature "distinct drum part for every section" style of composition.

Later on, though, MP became enamored with the flash. It first hit me with that snare fill in Fatal Tragedy (you know what I'm talking about). It's like my first experience of MP really trying to call attention to himself instead of playing for the song. Of course, there's the Finally Free outro.

By the time SDOIT came out, I am already getting distracted by a lot of MP's "look-at-me" drumming. The hi-hats in Misunderstood. MP's drum exhibition during Jordan's solo in Blind Faith. First time I heard it, I was going, "Damn it, Mike, I am focusing on what Jordan's doing!"

But the fans love the flash. When asked to name favorite MP drum parts, many fans point to the flash. The air-drummable stuff. The TDOE, the Finally Free, Blind Faith, TGD, HTF flashy stuff. Nobody points to Awake. MP still produced a lot of composition gems, like the SDOIT song, and 8VM. There are songs that balanced composition and flash, like Stream of Consciousness.  But I guess MP wants to give what the fans want, so he just drummed to the air-drumming crowd, and he lost me by the time Systematic Chaos came out. I remember many fans going gaga over his drumming in the final third of TCoT, and I freaking can not understand why such drumming that's competing with JP's guitar was fawned over. I mean, listen to how Mangini supported JP in the AWE outro.

I don't have a problem with that at all.  It adds a cool backdrop to the solo.  And sometimes that kind of stuff can enhance the solo section. I think of that crazy unison solo in In the Name of God...you know the one.   Had Portnoy and Myung played that straight, I am not sure I would dig that part that much, but what Myung and Portnoy are doing there makes it 50 times better.  And then there are times where just playing it straight under a solo is the way to go, like how Mangini plays it during the outro solo in A New Beginning.

Speaking of In the Name of God, you mentioned favorite Portnoy drum parts, and one of my favorites of his is right after that unison section.  It ends, they bust back into the main riff, JP does that note alone for a split second, and then when the full band comes back in, the way Portnoy attacks his snare with extreme aggression is pretty bad ass. 

[rumborak]

But the fans love the flash. When asked to name favorite MP drum parts, many fans point to the flash. [...] Nobody points to Awake.

Maybe in your circle of friends, but in mine the opening of 6:00 is traded as one of *the* MP moments.

Speaking of which, I got the impression the opening of PBD was in a similar vein to the 6:00 opening, but it also shows the difference between MP and MM.

[Lonk]

Since we are talking about our MP favorite moments. I became a DT fan during the SC album, and the first time I payed attention to the drums and said "WOW" was during the guitar solo for Constant Motion, and that is still my favorite MP drum. That guitar solo is not that interesting, and without MP doing what he does I think it that section would have been as bad as the solo for TDEN.

Some of my other favorite parts are the intro for Lines in the Sand, Never Enough, The outro for Finally Free, Actually a lot of FII.

I have yet to have a favorite Studio MM moment, but I certainly been awe at some of his live performances.

[rumborak]

Actually a lot of FII.

LITS, 4:08-4:30. Absolutely unbelievable.