Author Topic: Singers using non-native accents  (Read 1834 times)

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Offline bosk1

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Singers using non-native accents
« on: February 20, 2019, 01:08:19 PM »
This topic came to mind because of the band Jinjer.  For those that don't know, they are a band from a small town in Ukraine.  I first became acquainted with them through the video for the song Pisces.  I have checked out some of their other songs since then as well, and I was struck by a couple of things about the vocals:
-When Tatiana Shmailyuk uses her clean voice, there is not only no trace of Ukrainian accent, but her accent actually sounds very American.  She also uses a lot of phrasing and little vocal accents that are reminiscent of American pop and R&B.
-The lyrics are very poetic and symbolic in almost all of their songs, and there is a lot of wordplay and poetic device that works really well in English.

In contrast, when I heard her and her bandmates talk in Interviews, I was struck by how thick their Ukrainian accents are when they just talk.  And given point #2 above, I was also struck by the fact that they (and especially Tatiana) have to speak very slowly, pausing often, to be able to phrase their (her) thoughts in English.

I understand that singing in English for non-native speakers in bands from other countries makes sense because the music is then more accessible to a wider audience around the world.  But as I thought about this band, it made me wonder why they and other bands from non-English speaking countries often (not always) will employ an American accent on the vocals.  Is it maybe in part because the U.S. was kind of the birthplace of modern rock and pop, and so there is a perception that that is the most accessible accent?  Other reasons?  Other thoughts?
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Offline Progmetty

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Re: Singers using non-native accents
« Reply #1 on: February 20, 2019, 01:38:34 PM »
Definitely more accessible IMO. But I find singing in one language while having an accent of another to be laughable, comedic. Rammstein is the prime example of that, they recorded a couple of tracks in English in the late 90's, trying to gain exposure outside of German-speaking audience and it was something they said they regretted on several occasions as it didn't work out at all, it just sounded hilarious. Til Lindemann, the vocalist, has the thickest German accent, he finally came around to seeing the humor in it and recorded an entire album in English and it was all funny and absurd lyrics for comedy and shock value.
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Offline bosk1

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Re: Singers using non-native accents
« Reply #2 on: February 20, 2019, 01:53:11 PM »
But I find singing in one language while having an accent of another to be laughable, comedic.
Well, I think it depends.  I get your Rammstein example.  But you can look at plenty of other bands where that is not the case.  Simone and Mark in Epica sing with a Dutch (I assume) accent.  Klaus in Scorpions sings with a German accent.  And on and on.  I don't think there is a "right" or "wrong."  It's just whatever the band thinks works for them. 

Going back to my original example with Jinjer, I am also curious why American English, as opposed to British English, which I would assume would be a more common set of English accents around Europe.  Again, I'm not judging one way or the other.  I'm just curious.  I wonder if that is just the primary accent they learned (maybe the schools in that part of Ukraine teach that way; maybe they were exposed to more U.S. television shows or music when growing up and learning English), or if it was a conscious decision to use that particular English accent for some reason, or what.  And not that I'm expecting anyone to necessarily have the definitive "right" answer.  Just an interesting curiosity.
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Offline Lonk

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Re: Singers using non-native accents
« Reply #3 on: February 20, 2019, 02:50:58 PM »
It has to do with exposure and also musical phrasing.

Singing voice with a British accent does not sound as smooth and continuous as an American accent (In pop and rock at least). much less with a non-English speaking accent.

It's similar in Spanish, where the singing Spanish voice is nothing like the speaking voice in terms of accents. I don't know much about other languages, but when I was studying French, it was similar where the singing french sounded clearer than speaking French.
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Offline MirrorMask

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Re: Singers using non-native accents
« Reply #4 on: February 20, 2019, 03:03:55 PM »
I have a hard time figuring out accents  :lol I mean, I can recognize a very marked english accent, or a strong american one, but if it's not super blatant, I don't really get the difference, and all those discussions about "oh this english actor sounds so bad trying to portray an american" are lost on me.

About music in a foreign language, I believe music can be a HUGE influence in learning it. Heck, I learnt english with music. Until I was just studying it at school, my grades were very average. Then I started to listen to foreign music (Bon Jovi and Guns n' Roses first, then I made my entrance in heavy metal with Iron Maiden) and my english knowledge skyrocketed, thanks to my trying to translate the lyrics of my favorite songs. Steve Harris taught me more than my school teacher about english.

And I guess that depending on which bands you listen, you kinda develop the singing accents of the ones you're most familiar with. Even though the american accent should be harder - by now I can't really tell the difference, but when I was still not good with the english language, I always had the hardest time trying to figure out what american singers were singing. Bon Jovi was always way harder to understand than Bruce Dickinson. Can't really tell if it was the same for speaking languages - I started to watch movies and TV series in original language way later.
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Re: Singers using non-native accents
« Reply #5 on: February 20, 2019, 03:16:12 PM »
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Offline Architeuthis

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Re: Singers using non-native accents
« Reply #6 on: February 20, 2019, 03:21:47 PM »
Nightwish is a great example. You can't hear the fin-ish accent near as much when singing. That goes for Tarja and Floor both.  The bass player sounds American when he sings too at times,  and the guy is bilingual.
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Re: Singers using non-native accents
« Reply #7 on: February 20, 2019, 03:23:09 PM »
Nightwish is a great example. You can't hear the fin-ish accent near as much when singing. That goes for Tarja and Floor both.  The bass player sounds American when he sings too at times,  and the guy is bilingual.

Huh? Definitely for Floor, Marco and Annete, but Tarja?

At least live, Tarja had a THICK accent. To the point where I almost can't listen to their live stuff with her because I am not convinced she has any idea what the words she has memorized mean.
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Offline Cool Chris

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Re: Singers using non-native accents
« Reply #8 on: February 20, 2019, 03:28:02 PM »
I am not convinced she has any idea what the words she has memorized mean.

 :lol
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Offline Architeuthis

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Re: Singers using non-native accents
« Reply #9 on: February 20, 2019, 03:30:07 PM »
Nightwish is a great example. You can't hear the fin-ish accent near as much when singing. That goes for Tarja and Floor both.  The bass player sounds American when he sings too at times,  and the guy is bilingual.

Huh? Definitely for Floor, Marco and Annete, but Tarja?

At least live, Tarja had a THICK accent. To the point where I almost can't listen to their live stuff with her because I am not convinced she has any idea what the words she has memorized mean.
You're right about Tarja. :lol
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Offline bosk1

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Re: Singers using non-native accents
« Reply #10 on: February 20, 2019, 03:44:28 PM »
Nightwish is a great example. You can't hear the fin-ish accent near as much when singing. That goes for Tarja and Floor both.

Well, Floor is Dutch, not Finnish, so I wouldn't expect her to sound Finnish when singing (or any other time).   :lol
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Offline pg1067

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Re: Singers using non-native accents
« Reply #11 on: February 20, 2019, 06:04:46 PM »
I'm not sure if this really addresses any of the questions asked, but when I first started listening to popular/rock music, it surprised me how little of the singers' accents came through.  I suppose it depends on the song, but I don't think you'd necessarily know that Bruce Dickinson and Rob Halford were British just by listening to them sing.

I'll note that just about everything I've heard was sung by U.S., Canadian, British and German singers.  Without thinking about it too hard, I think the only others I've heard have been Maltese/Swiss (Krokus), Italian (Lacuna Coil) and Dutch (Within Temptation, but only a couple songs).  Most British singers don't sound very British when singing, but the continental European singers typically have some tinge of their native accents (although not nearly as much as when they sing).
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Offline Stadler

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Re: Singers using non-native accents
« Reply #12 on: February 20, 2019, 06:18:55 PM »
British singers in particular "lose" their accent.   Bruce has gotten better (from the perspective of an American), but that first tour he was basically indecipherable in between songs, but the songs themselves?  Clear as a bell.  Lennon and McCartney both sounded "American" except when they put on the "affect".  Ozzy.   Jon Anderson.  Phil and Peter (except when they were playing a character in the song, ala "Battle..." or "Robbery, Assault, and Battery".  Honestly, I think even Klaus wasn't that bad (listen to "Still Loving You").  Even American singers with a regional accent - Mike Stipe, Debbie Harry, Don Henley, Billy Joel - lose it when singing.

This: http://www.todayifoundout.com/index.php/2013/08/why-british-singers-lose-their-accent-when-singing/ says there is science behind the phenomenon, and it has nothing to do with "America" or the singers' intent. 

Offline Stadler

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Re: Singers using non-native accents
« Reply #13 on: February 20, 2019, 06:21:05 PM »
Nightwish is a great example. You can't hear the fin-ish accent near as much when singing. That goes for Tarja and Floor both.  The bass player sounds American when he sings too at times,  and the guy is bilingual.

Huh? Definitely for Floor, Marco and Annete, but Tarja?

At least live, Tarja had a THICK accent. To the point where I almost can't listen to their live stuff with her because I am not convinced she has any idea what the words she has memorized mean.

Floor could sing me the classified ads and I'd be fine with it.

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Re: Singers using non-native accents
« Reply #14 on: February 20, 2019, 06:24:28 PM »
Nightwish is a great example. You can't hear the fin-ish accent near as much when singing. That goes for Tarja and Floor both.  The bass player sounds American when he sings too at times,  and the guy is bilingual.

Huh? Definitely for Floor, Marco and Annete, but Tarja?

At least live, Tarja had a THICK accent. To the point where I almost can't listen to their live stuff with her because I am not convinced she has any idea what the words she has memorized mean.

Floor could sing me the classified ads and I'd be fine with it.

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Offline Zook

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Re: Singers using non-native accents
« Reply #15 on: February 20, 2019, 06:42:31 PM »
brand new floor

Offline Ben_Jamin

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Re: Singers using non-native accents
« Reply #16 on: February 20, 2019, 08:23:38 PM »
I'd say the biggest one for me is Tarja. On studio releases her accent isn't noticeable. Live is a different story, its really thick especially during Ever Dream...She pronounces it like Eeev instead of a Ev.
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Offline Ninjabait

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Re: Singers using non-native accents
« Reply #17 on: February 20, 2019, 10:16:28 PM »
The main two reasons I'd say come down to influence and accessibility. The US is probably one of the largest exporters of music in the world and one of the biggest cultural centers in the world right now. So it's natural that a lot of that accent would be absorbed by people all over the world. And since English is currently the lingua franca of the world, it makes sense to adopt an accent and language to reach the most people. A fantastic example is 21 Savage, who is British but has an American "rapping accent" that's apparently so convincing that the Internet's entire reaction to ICE detaining him on an expired visa was "wait, he's British?"

But I think it's interesting that sometimes the accent can totally switch depending on which language they're singing in. The french singer Keren Ann definitely has a French accent when singing in French (wow what a shock), but it's not nearly as pronounced when she sings in English. Marco Hietala definitely has a thick Finnish accent when singing something like Taikatalvi, but it's not as pronounced on something like Wish I Had an Angel.

And it's interesting to see how many singers stick to their regional accent at all times. Zaher Zogarti's accent is thick whenever and wherever he sings. Lorde's New Zealand accent is noticeable to say the least. Hansi Kursch's accent is always in full German mode. Or Cardi B or Tarja Turunen or Steven Wilson. Georgji Makazaria's extremely thick Russian accent is played up as a selling point for Russkaja.

And certain genres and singing styles tend to push accents even further into the background. Opera, Broadway/musical theater, and harsh metal vocals tend to have their own "accents" which tend to blur the line between nationalities even further.

This is a really interesting topic tho and I'll have to look into this further when I get a chance.

Offline Indiscipline

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Re: Singers using non-native accents
« Reply #18 on: February 21, 2019, 05:18:14 AM »
From someone who had to face the battle for accent neutralisation professionally (I am continously required to sing in english but my parentage is half Italian and half Geordie i.e. the worst british accent on earth), the easy way always leads to American English (except when character and plot requirements say otherwise, obviously). After all at least 50% of everybody's music listening memory baggage is sung by American artists, and even the bulk of British artists we usually have based our listening habits on were strongly influenced by American sung music.

Anyway, even though the nature of singing phrasing can often be a sort of "accent concealer" by itself (the innaturally long vowels, the priority of musical accents over colloquial accents), native accent almost never really completely goes away. Said this, could someone please explain to me why Sting had to sing in that silly Jamaican accent during his whole Police career?

Offline ChuckSteak

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Re: Singers using non-native accents
« Reply #19 on: February 21, 2019, 09:45:50 AM »
Snake from Voivod  :hefdaddy

Offline Stadler

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Re: Singers using non-native accents
« Reply #20 on: February 21, 2019, 10:11:49 AM »
From someone who had to face the battle for accent neutralisation professionally (I am continously required to sing in english but my parentage is half Italian and half Geordie i.e. the worst british accent on earth), the easy way always leads to American English (except when character and plot requirements say otherwise, obviously). After all at least 50% of everybody's music listening memory baggage is sung by American artists, and even the bulk of British artists we usually have based our listening habits on were strongly influenced by American sung music.

Anyway, even though the nature of singing phrasing can often be a sort of "accent concealer" by itself (the innaturally long vowels, the priority of musical accents over colloquial accents), native accent almost never really completely goes away. Said this, could someone please explain to me why Sting had to sing in that silly Jamaican accent during his whole Police career?

Because he's cool, or because he has, as you said, the worst British accent on earth (to this day I can't understand a word that Brian Johnson says, and he's lived in America for the better part of two decades now). 

Offline Cool Chris

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Re: Singers using non-native accents
« Reply #21 on: February 21, 2019, 10:22:17 AM »
Because he's cool, or because he has, as you said, the worst British accent on earth (to this day I can't understand a word that Brian Johnson says, and he's lived in America for the better part of two decades now). 

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Offline Dedalus

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Re: Singers using non-native accents
« Reply #22 on: February 21, 2019, 10:25:19 AM »
I'm not European (Ukranian), but I'm South American. I don't know if it's the same with them, but here's a pressure for you to have the most American (not British) accent possible. And when you fail and speak English with your own accent, you're not good enough.

Really interesting topic!  :tup

Offline Ruba

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Re: Singers using non-native accents
« Reply #23 on: February 21, 2019, 11:43:23 AM »
This topic came to mind because of the band Jinjer.  For those that don't know, they are a band from a small town in Ukraine.  I first became acquainted with them through the video for the song Pisces.  I have checked out some of their other songs since then as well, and I was struck by a couple of things about the vocals:
-When Tatiana Shmailyuk uses her clean voice, there is not only no trace of Ukrainian accent, but her accent actually sounds very American.  She also uses a lot of phrasing and little vocal accents that are reminiscent of American pop and R&B.
-The lyrics are very poetic and symbolic in almost all of their songs, and there is a lot of wordplay and poetic device that works really well in English.

In contrast, when I heard her and her bandmates talk in Interviews, I was struck by how thick their Ukrainian accents are when they just talk.  And given point #2 above, I was also struck by the fact that they (and especially Tatiana) have to speak very slowly, pausing often, to be able to phrase their (her) thoughts in English.

When you're writing lyrics, you can rewrite and revise them as many times as you can. When you're being interviewed/having a conversation in your non-native language, you can't think very far ahead what you're going to say and your brain tries to work simultaneously in two languages and that might lead in pauses, "errmm"s and sometimes not being able to find the word you're looking for. So even if someone might be able to write excellent English, spoken language can be totally a different ballgame.

Offline MirrorMask

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Re: Singers using non-native accents
« Reply #24 on: February 21, 2019, 11:46:29 AM »
So even if someone might be able to write excellent English, spoken language can be totally a different ballgame.

Same here - for starters, I write in english way, way more often than I actually speak it, and I have a bad habit of speaking too fast that doesn't go away when I switch to the english language, so all my good knowledge of english fails me when I speak  :facepalm: (Well, it's not that I suck, I remember for example receiving a compliment from a tourist I helped with directions, "you have a very good english"... but I don't speak as good as I could)
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Offline millahh

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Re: Singers using non-native accents
« Reply #25 on: February 21, 2019, 12:59:40 PM »
Going the opposite direction of most examples here, there's the dude from Green Day, who is from California but sings with a fake British accent.
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Offline Lowdz

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Re: Singers using non-native accents
« Reply #26 on: February 21, 2019, 02:41:47 PM »
I would imagine that the singer’s influences would play a part; who they grew up emulating, the songs they were singing.

Offline Ninjabait

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Re: Singers using non-native accents
« Reply #27 on: February 21, 2019, 05:50:47 PM »
So even if someone might be able to write excellent English, spoken language can be totally a different ballgame.

Yes, absolutely this. I'm currently learning French and Russian in school and my speaking ability is abysmal, but I'm almost at the point where I could probably watch and understand an entire french movie without subtitles (on a good day), and my reading and writing abilities are almost at level with English (because of all those grammar classes I've taken). Russian is brutally hard for me to speak correctly and my oral comprehension isn't really that great either (but getting better recently), even though I can read at like a...uh, 3rd grade level and write at like a...5th grade level. Because Russian vocab is brutal. I've been studying french intensively for about 3 years with a massive gap in between year 1 and 2, and russian intensively for about 2.

If someone has just been mostly learning a second language through media and are still primarily using their native tongue in their day-to-day life, I can imagine they'd have a few difficulties speaking it. Especially for a language as bizarre and difficult as English

Offline Stadler

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Re: Singers using non-native accents
« Reply #28 on: February 21, 2019, 07:40:51 PM »
Going the opposite direction of most examples here, there's the dude from Green Day, who is from California but sings with a fake British accent.

Yeah, but he's not really singing.  ;)

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Re: Singers using non-native accents
« Reply #29 on: February 23, 2019, 01:08:15 AM »
Nightwish is a great example. You can't hear the fin-ish accent near as much when singing. That goes for Tarja and Floor both.  The bass player sounds American when he sings too at times,  and the guy is bilingual.

Huh? Definitely for Floor, Marco and Annete, but Tarja?

At least live, Tarja had a THICK accent. To the point where I almost can't listen to their live stuff with her because I am not convinced she has any idea what the words she has memorized mean.
You're right about Tarja. :lol
Yeah, just listen to Elvenpath where she sings about "mighty swerds" :P
When you're writing lyrics, you can rewrite and revise them as many times as you can. When you're being interviewed/having a conversation in your non-native language, you can't think very far ahead what you're going to say and your brain tries to work simultaneously in two languages and that might lead in pauses, "errmm"s and sometimes not being able to find the word you're looking for. So even if someone might be able to write excellent English, spoken language can be totally a different ballgame.
And of course in the studio you can do multiple vocal takes and perfect your pronunciation, but in a spontaneous conversation you may not pay as much attention to it, resulting in your accent coming across stronger.

I found a blog post by Tracy Lipp, who has worked as an English coach for Finnish artists such as Lordi, in which he discusses the way your native language can affect your phrasing: https://www.tracylipp.com/Blog/Entries/2009/5/18_Its_all_about_the_feeling.html
Quote
When phrasing there are two key things I’ve found so far in dealing with Finns, Russians, Estonians and Latvians - They pronounce vowels and consonants with equal importance and and they don’t usually understand when to close a diphthong.  In case you don’t know, a diphthong is a vowel sound made by combining two vowel sounds  I’m not going to spend the time on the right phonetic notations.  If you really need more info just follow this link.

Let’s take the case of the Finns singing in english.  In finnish, double consonants and vowels are actually pronounced.  The double vowels aren’t very impactful when singing in english but the consonants change everything.  This is kinda hard to explain without getting into music theory and notation but I’ll give it a stab.  A word like “Kukka” gets pronounced Kuk-ka.  Since you’re pronouncing both of the Ks this adds time to the word.  In both singing and speaking Finnish you need to do this, because taking the extra K away actually changes the meaning of the word.  I’ve noticed that some translations into Finnish actually have to change the melody slightly to accommodate these things.

So when Finns sing a word like “cannot” they end up applying equal time to the vowels and consonants.  It sounds a little odd in my American ear, and at first I couldn’t understand what was wrong.  I didn’t hear anything actually mispronounced.  Eventually I realized that the “a” sound was too short, while the “n” sounds was too long.  When I sing the word, the n is audible but not overly emphasized.  The Finn (Russian, Estonian, Etc.) spends too much time on the n and throws the phrasing off.

As an English major and native Finnish speaker myself, another little thing I've noticed is that since in Finnish the stress in each word is always on the first syllable, sometimes Finnish singers apply this to singing in English as well, which leads to some awkward phrasing. As an example, listen to how Tony Kakko sings "abandoned" at 2:21 here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SPA0G4j1U6s A native English speaker would be more likely to start the word on the last beat of the previous measure and sing it more like "abaaandoooned", putting more emphasis on the latter 2 syllables.

Offline Lethean

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Re: Singers using non-native accents
« Reply #30 on: February 23, 2019, 09:49:33 AM »
I think a lot of singers actually do have accents, but we don't think about it that much when listening because we're listening to the flow of the song.  If I think about the Beatles and really focus in on the accent, I don't think it sounds "American."  That doesn't mean I'd know it was British if I didn't already, but it doesn't necessarily sound American either.

In most cases of accents from non native English singers, I'm fine with it, and even like it.  Maybe it helps to give their voice a more distinct character.

Offline WildRanger

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Re: Singers using non-native accents
« Reply #31 on: February 23, 2019, 11:35:58 AM »
Mikael Akerfeldt from Opeth and Serj Tankian from S.O.A.D.