Author Topic: 'ISIS brides' returning home - the case of Shamima Begum  (Read 1021 times)

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Offline XJDenton

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Re: 'ISIS brides' returning home - the case of Shamima Begum
« Reply #35 on: February 27, 2019, 10:58:51 AM »
My opinion as a Brit:

1. I don't think a country should be able to revoke citizenship under any circumstances. That leads down a slope too slippery for me.
2. The girl was 15 when she left, which means that she was likely either in her tweens or early teens when she was started to be groomed. Lets not pretend her decision to join iSIS was made by a rational adult, as opposed to a manipulated child.
3. Regardless of your feelings on her, her baby is innocent in this whole mess, and to willfully abandon them is pretty abhorrent.

Offline KevShmev

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Re: 'ISIS brides' returning home - the case of Shamima Begum
« Reply #36 on: March 03, 2019, 06:51:50 AM »
My opinion as a Brit:

1. I don't think a country should be able to revoke citizenship under any circumstances. That leads down a slope too slippery for me.
2. The girl was 15 when she left, which means that she was likely either in her tweens or early teens when she was started to be groomed. Lets not pretend her decision to join iSIS was made by a rational adult, as opposed to a manipulated child.
3. Regardless of your feelings on her, her baby is innocent in this whole mess, and to willfully abandon them is pretty abhorrent.

No one is abandoning her baby.  The baby's mother abandoned her country when she decided to become a traitor.  If this baby grows up and wonders, "Why aren't I an American citizen?", he/she need only look at Mom to figure out why.

Offline XJDenton

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Re: 'ISIS brides' returning home - the case of Shamima Begum
« Reply #37 on: March 03, 2019, 07:08:04 AM »
Nope. That baby had right to British Citizenship right up until the point it was stripped (most likely illegally) from her mother, which means its current predicament is entirely the choice of the British Government. Unless you feel children should be punished for the actions of their parents then I don't see how this can be viewed as anything other than a thoroughly immoral action.

Offline KevShmev

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Re: 'ISIS brides' returning home - the case of Shamima Begum
« Reply #38 on: March 03, 2019, 07:36:40 AM »
You know what's immoral?  Being a traitor and abandoning your country, so don't ask me to feel sorry for this traitor or anyone in her family who ends up being impacted by the decision SHE made.

Offline XJDenton

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Re: 'ISIS brides' returning home - the case of Shamima Begum
« Reply #39 on: March 03, 2019, 07:39:38 AM »
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You know what's immoral?  Being a traitor and abandoning your country,

Says man who lives in country founded by traitors who abandoned the united kingdom. :p

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so don't ask me to feel sorry for this traitor or anyone in her family who ends up being impacted by the decision SHE made.

Ah, so you do feel children should be punished for the actions of their parents. Okay.

Offline KevShmev

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Re: 'ISIS brides' returning home - the case of Shamima Begum
« Reply #40 on: March 03, 2019, 07:41:27 AM »
I didn't say that, but feel free to put words in the mouths of others if it makes you feel better.

Offline XJDenton

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Re: 'ISIS brides' returning home - the case of Shamima Begum
« Reply #41 on: March 03, 2019, 07:46:56 AM »
Fair enough, lets just say then you have complete ambivalence to children being punished for the actions of their parents, so long as said parents are sufficiently traitorous.

Offline KevShmev

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Re: 'ISIS brides' returning home - the case of Shamima Begum
« Reply #42 on: March 03, 2019, 07:51:48 AM »
Let's just say that I am not comfortable letting a traitor back in the country they betrayed.  Yes, it is sad and unfortunate for the child and any other family member who is affected, but this is 100% on the mother.  Actions have consequences, and when the child is one day old to understand what is going on and asks why he/she is not a citizen of their home country, perhaps the mother will have the guts to be honest and say, "Well, honey, you see, a long time ago, Mommy betrayed her homeland and aligned herself with a group of modern-day Nazis, and that is why they won't let us come back."

Offline XJDenton

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Re: 'ISIS brides' returning home - the case of Shamima Begum
« Reply #43 on: March 03, 2019, 07:58:46 AM »
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this is 100% on the mother.

Her actions are. The response isn't.

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Actions have consequences

And said consequences are enforced by the government. They have the choice in how to deal with the problem. They chose a thoroughly immoral one.

Offline KevShmev

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Re: 'ISIS brides' returning home - the case of Shamima Begum
« Reply #44 on: March 03, 2019, 08:03:41 AM »
It seems like you think the mother should be given a pass for being a traitor simply because she has a child.


Offline XJDenton

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Re: 'ISIS brides' returning home - the case of Shamima Begum
« Reply #45 on: March 03, 2019, 08:07:33 AM »
No. I think she should return, be tried in court, and jailed/rehabilitated if found guilty, like all other accused criminals, including many other "traitors" who have been treated in such way in the past. Removal of citizenship bypasses due process.

Offline KevShmev

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Re: 'ISIS brides' returning home - the case of Shamima Begum
« Reply #46 on: March 03, 2019, 08:09:56 AM »
No. I think she should return, be tried in court, and jailed/rehabilitated if found guilty, like all other accused criminals, including many other "traitors" who have been treated in such way in the past. Removal of citizenship bypasses due process.

But wait, isn't that immoral as well?  Cause the baby is then ripped away from her mother, when the latter is found guilty and put in prison for a long time.  Seems immoral to separate a baby from the mother, right?  Or are you arbitrarily deciding what is immoral and what is not?


Offline XJDenton

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Re: 'ISIS brides' returning home - the case of Shamima Begum
« Reply #47 on: March 03, 2019, 08:17:15 AM »
But wait, isn't that immoral as well?

No. The baby has a far better chance in either foster care, the care of family members, or in extreme circumstances, being adopted than it does living with its "Nazi-like" (your words, not mine) mother in a warzone.

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Cause the baby is then ripped away from her mother, when the latter is found guilty and put in prison for a long time.  Seems immoral to separate a baby from the mother, right?

Not if the mother is, as you previously described, basically on par with a Nazi and would therefore present both an existential and real physical risk to the child. Depriving a child of a parental figure is immoral, but there are plenty of other options other than the biological mother who could provide such a parental figure.

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Or are you arbitrarily deciding what is immoral and what is not?

No, my morality is fairly internally consistent. You might disagree with the axioms I am using, but it is in no way arbitrary. These positions are not plucked out of thin air.

Offline Dave_Manchester

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Re: 'ISIS brides' returning home - the case of Shamima Begum
« Reply #48 on: March 03, 2019, 09:20:41 AM »
when the child is one day old to understand what is going on and asks why he/she is not a citizen of their home country, perhaps the mother will have the guts to be honest and say, "Well, honey, you see, a long time ago, Mommy betrayed her homeland and aligned herself with a group of modern-day Nazis, and that is why they won't let us come back."

A likelier reply will be along the lines of "The imperialist infidels cast us out and that's why you will soon join your father in the jihad".

As I said earlier I completely understand and share the revulsion for what these people have been fighting for. But calmer heads (at a government level I mean) need to recognise that at some point, somebody is going to have to find a more far-sighted solution than "Fuck 'em". All of these men, women and children who are currently in detention centres in Syria are not going to suddenly drop dead. They are going to end up being somebody's problem, whether it's Syria, Iraq, Germany, Holland, the UK or the USA. Somebody has to take responsibility. We're talking many thousands of people who need to be accounted for. They need to be treated humanely (if we want to call ourselves better than ISIS) and brought to justice. More than anything, we need to know where the fuck they are in the world. Combating terrorist organisations and the conditions that create them is an immense task with no simple solution, but it's sickening to me that the British government has washed its hands of her (and hundreds like her). When the next guy gets lost in the system only to reappear a couple of years later and kill 23 people at a pop concert (Salman Abedi, the Manchester bomber), can I expect the Home Secretary to give a reasonable explanation of why he didn't bring them home and put them on trial when he had the chance? Governments move heaven and earth to pursue criminals who have fled the country - why are we not doing it with these people when we already know exactly where they are??

As for the case of Shamima Begum, the BBC found her husband and interviewed him.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-47431249

He's currently being held in a Kurdish detention centre (any guesses on who is having to pick up the bill for that? Does anyone care, so long as it's not us?), separate from his wife (it's being reported that she has now disappeared with her baby. Well done, Britain). Basically he's saying that he regrets his decision to join ISIS (I'd ask him whether his regret occurred before or after he "attended the stoning of a woman for fornication") and that he wants to return to the Netherlands with his wife and baby and start a new life after he's served his prison sentence. Which isn't going to happen, but these people are not known for their realistic view of things.

All I will say is that if 2 years from now the next I hear of Shamima Begum is that she's somehow made her way to Europe and blown herself up in a street market, I want the Home Secretary put on trial.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2019, 09:56:44 AM by Dave_Manchester »
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Offline Dave_Manchester

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Re: 'ISIS brides' returning home - the case of Shamima Begum
« Reply #49 on: March 03, 2019, 10:19:08 AM »
By the way I was reading an article by Pari Ibrahim (Yazidi campaigner) which made me realise that I'm guilty in my topic headline of (as she calls it) reducing these women to their roles as wives of terrorists, when in fact they are every bit as responsible for the genocide as their husbands. She takes issue with the term "ISIS brides" as lessening their complicity in the torture and murder of the Yazidi people, making them appear almost to be innocent bystanders. It's a point well taken. I'm not going to change the headline but it's something that I wanted to make note of.
"As democracy is perfected, the office of President represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their hearts' desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron" - H.L.Mencken, 26th July 1920.

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Offline Cool Chris

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Re: 'ISIS brides' returning home - the case of Shamima Begum
« Reply #50 on: March 04, 2019, 07:34:17 PM »
Regarding the US gal, govt officials found a loophole in her whole citizenship issue, that of course works in their favor.

Also: "Muthana, now 24, was a college student when she traveled to Syria more than four years ago to join ISIS -- eventually marrying three fighters and calling for the killing of Americans on Twitter."

Three marriages in 4 years?
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Offline Adami

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Re: 'ISIS brides' returning home - the case of Shamima Begum
« Reply #51 on: March 04, 2019, 08:13:43 PM »

Three marriages in 4 years?


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Offline Dave_Manchester

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Re: 'ISIS brides' returning home - the case of Shamima Begum
« Reply #52 on: March 05, 2019, 06:31:59 AM »
Regarding the US gal, govt officials found a loophole in her whole citizenship issue, that of course works in their favor.

Where have you seen that? The info I found yesterday seems to be the opposite; a judge ruled against the motion to fast-track her case, finding that she was in no danger of "immediate harm" in the Syrian camp and so wasn't entitled to have her citizenship case expedited. Which loophole have you read about?

As for the 3 marriages in 4 years, that's likely the result of terrorists having a pleasingly short life span relative to other demographics, and I don't imagine the Hoda Muthanas of the world go through the same grieving process as the rest of us. When you're a broodmare for the jihad you marry the next guy while the old one's still gurgling out his death rattle.

If I were a betting man I'd say that Muthana's family will get nowhere with their appeal to have her brought home. The issue of "immediate harm" (what it seems to come down to) doesn't apply to her any more than it does to anyone else in those camps, at least as far as I can see (not knowing anything about her actual personal situation there; which incidentally puts me on a par with the US government). I suspect somewhere in downtown DC a fly on the wall of the State Department just flew home to Mrs Fly and told her "The plan is to wait long enough for her to die of disease or malnutrition. Good for our Syrian brethren I suppose".
"As democracy is perfected, the office of President represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their hearts' desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron" - H.L.Mencken, 26th July 1920.

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Offline Dave_Manchester

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Re: 'ISIS brides' returning home - the case of Shamima Begum
« Reply #53 on: March 05, 2019, 08:14:21 AM »
Oh wait, sorry Chris, I misread your post, you said it rules in "their" favour, as in the government. I misread it as "their" favour as in the woman's family.
« Last Edit: March 05, 2019, 12:52:00 PM by Dave_Manchester »
"As democracy is perfected, the office of President represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their hearts' desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron" - H.L.Mencken, 26th July 1920.

"China has total respect for Donald Trump and for Donald Trump's very very large brain" - American President Donald Trump, September 26th 2018.

Offline XJDenton

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Re: 'ISIS brides' returning home - the case of Shamima Begum
« Reply #54 on: March 08, 2019, 12:51:52 PM »

Offline Dave_Manchester

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Re: 'ISIS brides' returning home - the case of Shamima Begum
« Reply #55 on: March 08, 2019, 01:59:24 PM »
Her child died.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-47500387

One down, one to go, and then the British government can return to its smug superiority complex over how 'shithole regimes' treat their own citizens.
"As democracy is perfected, the office of President represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their hearts' desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron" - H.L.Mencken, 26th July 1920.

"China has total respect for Donald Trump and for Donald Trump's very very large brain" - American President Donald Trump, September 26th 2018.