2019 NFL Thread v. Chiefs are Champs, Missouri rules the sports world

[El Barto]

Brett Favre wishes he was Tom Brady. 

So do the Vikings.

[Dublagent66]

 

[Stadler]

Yet it wasnt with Tom Brady.  That's why with the contract coming up it seems plausible that their greesing the skids.

A lot of the owners, including Jerry, were very vocal about the fact that they didn't want Brady suspended for exactly the reason Kev suggests. The dude's ratings gold. Sticking it to Kraft was just more important, apparently. In reality it probably didn't hurt all that much as people still tuned in to see how a Bradyless NE would fare, most likely hoping to see them crash and burn. KC won't have that advantage. Besides, I think the Chiefs are kind of the NFL darlings right now. Everybody wants to see them score 100 points a game (and give up 99) and the league knows the value of that.

My company has a fairly large complex just west of Kansas City, and I was with a contingent from there this past week.  They are positively giddy about this season.   I kept my counsel, as I'm not that guy that likes stepping on butterfly wings, but they believe they are in line for a Lombardi Trophy.

[KevShmev]

My company has a fairly large complex just west of Kansas City, and I was with a contingent from there this past week.  They are positively giddy about this season.   I kept my counsel, as I'm not that guy that likes stepping on butterfly wings, but they believe they are in line for a Lombardi Trophy.

I think most would agree that they are one of the top contenders this year.  Heck, they were thisclose to making the Super Bowl last season, despite having a putrid defense.  I know you think Andy Reid is crap and that he can't win the big game, but he certainly can; it's just a matter of if he does.

[TAC]

I heard the Chiefs new slogan for the season is..."If the Blues can do it..."

[KevShmev]

Not that I am a Chiefs fan, but I am sure that I, like many others, would enjoy seeing the Chiefs bully the Patriots and knock them out, similar to what the Blues did to the Bruins...

[King Postwhore]

Yeah but again we'll see Andy Reid choke on a large sub while calling offensive plays.

My evil Belichick smirk will drive you nuts.

[El Barto]

We'll see. Patriots D will be slightly improved this year. KC's will be a question mark. What we saw last year was when the game mattered Tom Brady dismantled them like they were nothing. Maybe Spagnulo will be the guy to prevent that, but not too many DCs have been able to pull it off. Nevertheless, we've still got a Reid-coached team which means questionable game calls and a [relative] lack of discipline. It takes luck to beat NE with those qualities.

Though it's already started out to be an incredibly lucky season for KC thus far.

[TAC]

Not that I am a Chiefs fan, but I am sure that I, like many others, would enjoy seeing the Chiefs bully the Patriots and knock them out, similar to what the Blues did to the Bruins...

The Blues didn't bully the Bruins, nor do I believe the Bruins bullied the Canucks in 2011, which is the narrative around here. The margins in both series were very small. It's a game of inches, and that's all it is.

[King Postwhore]

Tim.  Come on man.  Both is true. 

[TAC]

Tim.  Come on man.  Both is true.

I don't believe either. The Bruins in 2011 and the Blues in 2019 were the "more physical" team, but neither loser was "bullied".
Two shots two inches to the left or right on Binnington in the 1st period and the Cup is in Boston. I love how these narratives take on a life of their own.

[King Postwhore]

When the other team allows it, it is.  It's mirror image but on the other side.

[TAC]

When the other team allows it, it is.  It's mirror image but on the other side.

I agree with that.

[Stadler]

KC isn't nearly as far from a Super Bowl as, say, Dallas, but they aren't as close as they think they are.   For a guy like Mahomes to carry that team on his back - which is what they will require to win the Super Bowl - he needs to be a Lawrence Taylor, or a Tom Brady.   He's not that.   With a week to prepare and the season on the line, my money is on the solid TEAM organization, and that's not now and never has been an Andy Reid team.   Plus as the years go on, the monkey gets heavier.  That's not helping.

Anything can happen - any given Sunday - but as a general rule...

(And I would be remiss if I didn't note that as much as I like the Bruins as a team, they are not the Patriots.)

[El Barto]

KC isn't nearly as far from a Super Bowl as, say, Dallas, but they aren't as close as they think they are.   For a guy like Mahomes to carry that team on his back - which is what they will require to win the Super Bowl - he needs to be a Lawrence Taylor, or a Tom Brady.   He's not that.   With a week to prepare and the season on the line, my money is on the solid TEAM organization, and that's not now and never has been an Andy Reid team.   Plus as the years go on, the monkey gets heavier.  That's not helping.

Related to this discussion I watched the highlights of the Div championship game last night. Something that jumped out at me was a difference in the two teams' demeanors. NE, as is customary, plays with a workmanlike attitude. They're not above celebrating, but they know when to celebrate. The Chiefs would act as if a good play just won them the game. Converting a 3rd and 9 is a big deal, but it's only one of a great many big deals. Especially when you're in the first half and your'e down 14. You need a lot more. This isn't a big thing in the grand scheme of things, but it's indicative of a very different mindset which isn't really conducive to winning titles, and it is the sort of thing I expect Andy Reid to not get. Is it Marv Lewis bad? Certainly not. Does it matter? Yep. To be fair, in a rematch I suspect they'll have a very different attitude. I'd expect much greater focus. It still reflects on Andy Reid just not really getting a lot of the details, and those details add up.

[Stadler]

It's the same problem with Cam Newton (though he's worse), and I still remember something Steve Young said after a Thursday Night game:  "He doesn't know what he needs to do to be a winner" or something to that effect.  It's not just about lifting weights or hitting that 40 in 4.2.  I think Andy falls into that category.

At least in football, there are far more examples of the smart, detail oriented team defeating the team of pure athletes than there are examples the other way around. 

[KevShmev]

It's still funny to read those posts knowing that if Dee Ford hadn't jumped offsides, the Chiefs win the AGCCG and possibly the Super Bowl, but I am sure Andy Reid's lack of attention to detail is why Ford jumped offsides, right?

[TAC]

It's still funny to read those posts knowing that if Dee Ford hadn't jumped offsides, the Chiefs win the AGCCG and possibly the Super Bowl, but I am sure Andy Reid's lack of attention to detail is why Ford jumped offsides, right?

[El Barto]

So if a KC player hadn't cost them the game KC would have won. What an insightful thing to say.

Moreover, his screwup was exactly the sort of thing I'm on about. The dude lined up a foot over the damn line. Even Romo laughed at him.    Coaching a disciplined team is kind of important. It's sometimes the difference between winning and losing.

[KevShmev]

Players make mistakes. It happens. And that one was a game-changing one. Not sure why anyone would take issue with it, although I get that some Patriots fans, after six titles, still rage on the inside at the idea of anyone not genuflecting to them.

[King Postwhore]

All I can say is people say the Pats are lucky.  Happens too many times to be luck.

[El Barto]

Players make mistakes. It happens. And that one was a game-changing one. Not sure why anyone would take issue with it, although I get that some Patriots fans, after six titles, still rage on the inside at the idea of anyone not genuflecting to them.

Nah. All I've done is point out that one of Andy's flaws (as well as a ton of other coaches) is that they don't emphasize discipline and avoiding mental mistakes. While there's obviously some overlap, the Patriots still make plenty of penalties, you see well coached teams doing things that other teams don't. Playing all the way to the whistle. Treating every ball as live until it's conclusively not. Getting ready for the next play rather than celebrating the last one. Keeping an eye on their teammates.

[TheCountOfNYC]

Players make mistakes. It happens. And that one was a game-changing one. Not sure why anyone would take issue with it, although I get that some Patriots fans, after six titles, still rage on the inside at the idea of anyone not genuflecting to them.

Nah. All I've done is point out that one of Andy's flaws (as well as a ton of other coaches) is that they don't emphasize discipline and avoiding mental mistakes. While there's obviously some overlap, the Patriots still make plenty of penalties, you see well coached teams doing things that other teams don't. Playing all the way to the whistle. Treating every ball as live until it's conclusively not. Getting ready for the next play rather than celebrating the last one. Keeping an eye on their teammates.

This.

Heads up I’m about to compliment the Patriots. Savor it. I promise it won’t happen again for a long time.

This is the biggest reason why New England has won six Super Bowls, nine AFC titles, sixteen division titles, and only missed the playoffs three times under Bill Belechick’s watch. They haven’t always been the most talented team, but they are always the most well prepared and well disciplined team on the field. You have to be nearly perfect to beat them, and even then you still might end up losing by a field goal.

[King Postwhore]

I'm playing Powerball 

[TAC]

[KevShmev]

Players make mistakes. It happens. And that one was a game-changing one. Not sure why anyone would take issue with it, although I get that some Patriots fans, after six titles, still rage on the inside at the idea of anyone not genuflecting to them.

Nah. All I've done is point out that one of Andy's flaws (as well as a ton of other coaches) is that they don't emphasize discipline and avoiding mental mistakes. While there's obviously some overlap, the Patriots still make plenty of penalties, you see well coached teams doing things that other teams don't. Playing all the way to the whistle. Treating every ball as live until it's conclusively not. Getting ready for the next play rather than celebrating the last one. Keeping an eye on their teammates.

All true.  Cowherd talked the other day about how the gap between Belichick and the 2nd best coach (whomever that might be) is wide.  I still remember Eric Mangini talking a year or two about how Patriots are not allowed to stretch for the goal line if they are getting tackled (unless it's a 4th down or last second play or something), as you risk getting stripped of the ball.  And if you did it, you were getting benched.  Protect the ball, go down and someone else will score on the next play.  Little stuff like that is why the Patriots are always so disciplined. 

[El Barto]

I've generally considered Pete Carroll number two on the list by a somewhat wide margin, but there's just as big a gap between him and Belichick. For as much shit as he took for the superbowl interception, that he was able make that decision in an absolute pressure-cooker situation with the clock beating him down was pretty remarkable, and not something I think most coaches would have gotten. IMO, where they really lost the game was, ironically, a breakdown of discipline. They actually had a top flight D and NE stuck in a terrible position, and they let Brady draw them offside. That was worse than the play call, and it's something that NE would never have let happen. Still, the dude's an excellent thinker, and he always finds a way to make do with what he's got, which seems to be less and less each year.

Payton probably has to be number 3, and then there's another big gap.

[Stadler]

I've generally considered Pete Carroll number two on the list by a somewhat wide margin, but there's just as big a gap between him and Belichick. For as much shit as he took for the superbowl interception, that he was able make that decision in an absolute pressure-cooker situation with the clock beating him down was pretty remarkable, and not something I think most coaches would have gotten. IMO, where they really lost the game was, ironically, a breakdown of discipline. They actually had a top flight D and NE stuck in a terrible position, and they let Brady draw them offside. That was worse than the play call, and it's something that NE would never have let happen. Still, the dude's an excellent thinker, and he always finds a way to make do with what he's got, which seems to be less and less each year.

Payton probably has to be number 3, and then there's another big gap.

I don't have a better pick for number 3, but for some reason I'm surprised you put Payton at 3.  Though I suppose that's probably the best indicator of the size of the gap, because Payton is closer to Reid than Belichick when talking about the tings we're talking about (discipline, etc.).  I think it's partly on Payton that his team basically collapsed after the missed pass interference call last year.   That's partly the coach's job to help keep the focus. 

As for the Patriots/Chiefs, I understand the "Dee Ford" line of thinking, and it's tactically correct, but strategically flawed.   First, that's not an "official's judgment" call.  It's a dead ball foul, in the sense that he was lined up that way prior to the snap, and can move if need be to reset his position.   It's on the Chief's.  Second, IF you are going to play "what if" (which I'm not a huge fan of; we can "what if" David Tyree didn't have a huge melon head too), you have to go whole hog:  why were they in that position to begin with? The greatest offense in the history of the NFL, MLB, NASL and the NBA combined didn't score one point in the entire first quarter.  If I was more "superstitious", I might even say that Belichick got into Dee Ford's head; the offense wasn't going to win this game, the DEFENSE was, and they knew it.   And, guess what, I'm superstitious enough to say that.   

Plus, in the next game, the Patriots did the exact same thing; they faced a high flying offense, and made them play a different game (which they tried, and couldn't do).   I think any other coach, and Dee Ford could have lined up in the parking lot and it wouldn't have changed the outcome one bit, but Belichick got his team in a position to win.  You can contrast that with Reid all day long and it won't be pretty.   (I've already gave you two examples including the Reid-coached best offense in the universe going scoreless for 30 minutes in their biggest game over the last 25 years at least). 

[KevShmev]

That's great, but every single coach in the NFL is going to come up way short compared to Belichick, so not sure exactly why that analogy is needed other than finding another way to take a shot at a coach nearly everyone considers one of the NFL's best.

[El Barto]

That's great, but every single coach in the NFL is going to come up way short compared to Belichick, so not sure exactly why that analogy is needed other than finding another way to take a shot at a coach nearly everyone considers one of the NFL's best.

I don't reckon you were responding to me, but for my part I'm questioning that early everyone should consider Reid one of the NFL's best. As I see it some of his flaws have been huge components in costing them some big games.  Several of which were against NE.

In any case, I think it does just illustrate how big the gap is between Belichick and everybody else. While that's not fair to everybody else, it is what it is. He demonstrates what's possible, and others get criticized for not being able to do it.

[Stadler]

That's great, but every single coach in the NFL is going to come up way short compared to Belichick, so not sure exactly why that analogy is needed other than finding another way to take a shot at a coach nearly everyone considers one of the NFL's best.

I don't reckon you were responding to me, but for my part I'm questioning that early everyone should consider Reid one of the NFL's best. As I see it some of his flaws have been huge components in costing them some big games.  Several of which were against NE.

In any case, I think it does just illustrate how big the gap is between Belichick and everybody else. While that's not fair to everybody else, it is what it is. He demonstrates what's possible, and others get criticized for not being able to do it.

Yeah.  What he said. 

Ask someone in Philly if they consider him "one of the NFL's best".   Thirty years from now, given that nothing radically changes, he will not be in that pantheon. 

[TAC]

Payton probably has to be number 3, and then there's another big gap.

Payton is way overrated. I posted my research last year on that.

Not including last year's 13-3 record and trip to the NFC CG...

In the 11 years (he was suspended for a 12th year) that he and his HOF QB have been together:
The have averaged a 9-7 season
Have had 4 losing seasons plus one 8-8 season
Have been to ONE SB
Had been to TWO NFC CGs (1-1 record)
Missed the playoffs FIVE times.




If he's really the third best coach, then the coaching in the league blows. Which it does, obviously. I blame the owners, honestly, more than I blame the coaches.

[KevShmev]

Yeah, I agree with that.  Payton is a good head coach, but only one Super Bowl appearance in nearly 15 seasons with a top 10 all-time QB doesn't exactly scream greatness, and I hold last year's NFCCG loss against him; he lost his cool following the non-call and his team followed him right along.

Barto, I hear what you are saying, but I will put it this way: I cannot think of 5 current NFL head coaches that I would say are better than Andy Reid.  His track record over nearly 20 years speaks for itself.

[TAC]

Andy Reid has 2 SB rings if there is no Belichick.

Andy Reid is a whipping boy in these parts, but I think it's unfair.

[El Barto]

Yeah, I agree with that.  Payton is a good head coach, but only one Super Bowl appearance in nearly 15 seasons with a top 10 all-time QB doesn't exactly scream greatness, and I hold last year's NFCCG loss against him; he lost his cool following the non-call and his team followed him right along.

Barto, I hear what you are saying, but I will put it this way: I cannot think of 5 current NFL head coaches that I would say are better than Andy Reid.  His track record over nearly 20 years speaks for itself.

Don't take this as me arguing with you. Reid as a top 6 QB doesn't bother me at all. This whole thing started because I said he was a liability with regards to beating out NE this year, because he is. His overall record isn't any better than Payton's, and he has a losing record in the playoffs, as opposed to Payton. Dude's had a lot of very good teams, nine playoff spots in the NFC-E isn't an easy thing to do. Nor is five more in the A-W but he has nothing to show for it. And in some of those cases it's directly attributable to him.