Do you think it was disrespectful of DT to play A Change of Seasons last tour?

[gzarruk]

My issue with TBOT is that I think the lyrics are just plain bad

Agree 100% He wanted the lyrics to be SO personal, they ended up being a bit cheesy and not too easy to connect with unless you're part of MP's family.

I kinda wish DT played it at least once, though, because they're the kind of band that plays most, if not all, their songs live and this is one of the few that have never seen the light of day on a live setting (the other two being Raw Dog and Surrender to Reason). Also, there's THAT solo 

Other than that, there's no real reason to play TBOT.

[MirrorMask]

I kinda wish DT played it at least once, though, because they're the kind of band that plays most, if not all, their songs live and this is one of the few that have never seen the light of day on a live setting (the other two being Raw Dog and Surrender to Reason).

I'm quite confident Surrender to Reason will be played in the next tour. They always said they'd play the remaining songs off the self titled in future tours, and at the first chance they played Behind the Veil, and at the second chance (obviously The Astonishing tour wasn't) they played The Bigger Picture. We can't be sure until the tour starts but I assume they'll play it.

[gzarruk]

I kinda wish DT played it at least once, though, because they're the kind of band that plays most, if not all, their songs live and this is one of the few that have never seen the light of day on a live setting (the other two being Raw Dog and Surrender to Reason).

I'm quite confident Surrender to Reason will be played in the next tour. They always said they'd play the remaining songs off the self titled in future tours, and at the first chance they played Behind the Veil, and at the second chance (obviously The Astonishing tour wasn't) they played The Bigger Picture. We can't be sure until the tour starts but I assume they'll play it.

Hoping they play it on the upcoming tour!

[Pax]

No, but it was disrespectful for DT not to even respond to invitation to play with MP at his 50th birthday.

[Anguyen92]

^^ Maybe they declined it privately.  Not all responses to invites made on Social Media/Interviews/etc. has to be made publicly.

[Pax]

^^ Maybe they declined it privately.  Not all responses to invites made on Social Media/Interviews/etc. has to be made publicly.

correct me if I'm wrong, but if I remember correctly, MP himself said that they haven't responded

[Samsara]

^^ Maybe they declined it privately.  Not all responses to invites made on Social Media/Interviews/etc. has to be made publicly.

correct me if I'm wrong, but if I remember correctly, MP himself said that they haven't responded

But therein could be the problem. MP had to publicly say that. Everything with MP always ends up out loud. Love the dude as a drummer, and like that he's a fellow fan and collector of music. But sometimes, the best course of action is to just ZIP IT. 

[KevShmev]

^^ Maybe they declined it privately.  Not all responses to invites made on Social Media/Interviews/etc. has to be made publicly.

correct me if I'm wrong, but if I remember correctly, MP himself said that they haven't responded

Boo freaking hoo.

Maybe they were too busy laughing at the idea of a 50-year old man throwing himself a birthday party at a concert.

[pg1067]

^^ Maybe they declined it privately.  Not all responses to invites made on Social Media/Interviews/etc. has to be made publicly.

correct me if I'm wrong, but if I remember correctly, MP himself said that they haven't responded

This article says DT "declined" the invite and quotes MP as saying "they turned it down."  http://loudwire.com/mike-portnoy-clarifies-dream-theater-invite-50th-birthday-bash/  In this article, MP described it as an "open invitation" that he doubted the band would accept.  https://www.loudersound.com/news/mike-portnoy-invites-dream-theater-to-50th-birthday-bash

Maybe there are other articles that are out there that say other things, but I couldn't find anything that indicated the band didn't respond.  Moreover, if, as appears to be the case, the "invitation" was made simply by way of published interviews -- as opposed to a direct invitation -- that's not really something that requires a response.  The more appropriate way to extend an invitation would be for MP's management to contact DT's management or for MP to call or text JP and/or JR (and, for all I know, those things actually happened, but I couldn't find anything public about that).

[KevShmev]

^^ Maybe they declined it privately.  Not all responses to invites made on Social Media/Interviews/etc. has to be made publicly.

correct me if I'm wrong, but if I remember correctly, MP himself said that they haven't responded

This article says DT "declined" the invite and quotes MP as saying "they turned it down."  http://loudwire.com/mike-portnoy-clarifies-dream-theater-invite-50th-birthday-bash/  In this article, MP described it as an "open invitation" that he doubted the band would accept.  https://www.loudersound.com/news/mike-portnoy-invites-dream-theater-to-50th-birthday-bash

Maybe there are other articles that are out there that say other things, but I couldn't find anything that indicated the band didn't respond.  Moreover, if, as appears to be the case, the "invitation" was made simply by way of published interviews -- as opposed to a direct invitation -- that's not really something that requires a response.  The more appropriate way to extend an invitation would be for MP's management to contact DT's management or for MP to call or text JP and/or JR (and, for all I know, those things actually happened, but I couldn't find anything public about that).

DT should have publicly replied and said, "Unfortunately, the band as a whole will be unable to attend, but James La Brie has some free time on his calendar, and we would be more than happy to send him as the band's representative. Sound good??"

[Cool Chris]

The more appropriate way to extend an invitation would be for MP's management to contact DT's management or for MP to call or text JP and/or JR....

Sad that we are at the point now where actually contacting someone directly is the least considered option? And by directly I mean dialing numbers on a phone and calling them, or sending a message to their text/email directly, not via the public sphere of twittfacegram.

[Adami]

The more appropriate way to extend an invitation would be for MP's management to contact DT's management or for MP to call or text JP and/or JR....

Sad that we are at the point now where actually contacting someone directly is the least considered option? And by directly I mean dialing numbers on a phone and calling them, or sending a message to their text/email directly, not via the public sphere of twittfacegram.

Well, to say hi and stuff, yes. But to set up potential gigs? The guys don't do that. Management and so forth does that.

[Cool Chris]

Sure, Celebs have their "people" talk to each other, but I would think after the initial invite was made personally, then their "people" could work out the logistics.

[Adami]

Sure, Celebs have their "people" talk to each other, but I would think after the initial invite was made personally, then their "people" could work out the logistics.

Possibly. But at this point in their careers, I honestly doubt the members of DT have....anything at all....to do with those kinds of things. He could have called them, and then immediately told to contact the management, as DT have no say in the matter.

[Cool Chris]

I agree with you. "Might you be interested in doing this?" "Maybe, let's have our people discuss the deets." "Perfect!"

It was not at all disrespectful for them to not participate. If the only "invite" was an "open invitation" mentioned in an interview, there is nothing wrong with not replying.

[PetFish]

No, but it was disrespectful for DT not to even respond to invitation to play with MP at his 50th birthday.

Le *sigh*.

[pg1067]

The more appropriate way to extend an invitation would be for MP's management to contact DT's management or for MP to call or text JP and/or JR....

Sad that we are at the point now where actually contacting someone directly is the least considered option? And by directly I mean dialing numbers on a phone and calling them, or sending a message to their text/email directly, not via the public sphere of twittfacegram.

Well, to say hi and stuff, yes. But to set up potential gigs? The guys don't do that. Management and so forth does that.

When it's Bobby Joe Rapguy who wants to "feat." Lil' Jane on his new song, then that would typically be done through management.  When it's folks with an existing relationship, then the initial "are you interested" contact should be direct, with management being looped in to coordinate details if there is interest:  "Hey John, are you guys interested?"  "Hey Mike, I talked with the other guys, and we're in!"  "Great.  I'll have my guy contact your guy to work out the details."

[mikeyd23]

Maybe they were too busy laughing at the idea of a 50-year old man throwing himself a birthday party at a concert.

  Underrated and overlooked awesome comment on the matter. Well done Kev.

[KevShmev]

Maybe they were too busy laughing at the idea of a 50-year old man throwing himself a birthday party at a concert.

  Underrated and overlooked awesome comment on the matter. Well done Kev.

 

[JiM-Xtreme]

In answer to the OP, no I do not think it was disrespectful of DT for reasons explained plenty of times in this thread already, most succinctly by bosk at the beginning.

But I'll tell you what I did find odd. The decision to play "The Shattered Fortress" as the second song on the Along for the Ride tour.

Why? Well, firstly, given that it was written as the conclusion of the "Twelve Step Suite" and very obviously a "big finale" type of song, to me it seemed a very strange setlisting choice to put it so close to the beginning without any of the other songs in the suite preceding it. But also, and perhaps more significantly, that song was really all about MP overcoming his personal struggles, and he had made it clear for years that the eventual plan was for them to perform these songs together live as one continuous piece. We all knew that. So, for the rest of the band to introduce that particular song to their live repertiore at the time they did, completely out of context, with no involvement of MP and thereby ruling out the possibility of performing it for the first time with him behind the kit (even as a one-off performance as a special guest), is a creative decision that I did not understand at the time and still don't, to be honest.

Yes, I completely understand and agree that just like ACoS, it is a Dream Theater song and I'm not by any means trying to suggest that performing it without MP was inappropriate. I certainly wouldn't go as far as to say it was disrespectful. They are free to perform these songs as and when they wish. I'm just saying I found it odd. It almost gave the impression that they wanted to make a point that as far as they were concerned, no song was "off-limits" anymore without MP in the band, a point further emphasised by the first live performance of Space-Dye Vest. And if that was indeed their reasoning, I wouldn't go as far as to say that they were wrong to do so. It just doesn't really make sense to me.

[MirrorMask]

I don't think they really thought half of the things you posted in compiling the setlist. You make all valid points, but most realistically, they played it "just because". It was time to compile a new setlist, they wanted to offer some difference from the back catalogue, The Shattered Fortress had not been played live yet, so they thought "hey, what not".

As for placing it second in the set.... unusual, but it's not so entirely out of this world to slap a, for lack of a better word, "epic" as a second song. They already had Breaking All Illusions as set closer and the second slot is a good place as any. When I saw them at a festival they played the 11 minutes long Beyond this Life as second song.

Again, I understand your points, but I'd be surprised if the discussion about playing The Shattered Fortress was longer than "Hey, we haven't played The Shattered Fortress yet, how about we do it?" "Ok,cool".

[KevShmev]

Plus, the first set of that tour featured three songs over 10 minutes, and it is always better to space them out if you can.

[TheLordOfTheStrings]

Okay, I'm gonna say this because apparently it needs to be said. ANY AND EVERY DREAM THEATER SONG IS FAIR GAME FOR DREAM THEATER TO PLAY LIVE. It doesn't matter who wrote the lyrics. The fact is this - I promise you Mike Portnoy did not write the music for ACOS, TSF, or any Dream Theater song, therefore he has no "claim" to any DT song in that way whether or not he wrote the lyrics. I know someone's gonna say "but he helped produce bla bla bla" but helping to arrange parts that someone else wrote into a song isn't writing a song. Honestly I mean no disrespect to MP (or to drummers in general because obviously a lot of drummers do more than just drum - MM submitted riffs for D/T for example) but there's a reason why it's so easy for him to be in so many bands - frankly, it's because he's playing drums therefore he doesn't write the music in the way that JP, Neal Morse, Steve Morse, Bumblefoot, Ritchie Kotzen, etc do. I promise you that if MP was a guitar player, he would not be in a quarter of the amount of bands he's in. It's easier to find beats/patterns/etc to other people's riffs/parts/songs than it is to write riffs/parts/songs.

[Dedalus]

Okay, I'm gonna say this because apparently it needs to be said. ANY AND EVERY DREAM THEATER SONG IS FAIR GAME FOR DREAM THEATER TO PLAY LIVE. It doesn't matter who wrote the lyrics. The fact is this - I promise you Mike Portnoy did not write the music for ACOS, TSF, or any Dream Theater song, therefore he has no "claim" to any DT song in that way whether or not he wrote the lyrics. I know someone's gonna say "but he helped produce bla bla bla" but helping to arrange parts that someone else wrote into a song isn't writing a song. Honestly I mean no disrespect to MP (or to drummers in general because obviously a lot of drummers do more than just drum - MM submitted riffs for D/T for example) but there's a reason why it's so easy for him to be in so many bands - frankly, it's because he's playing drums therefore he doesn't write the music in the way that JP, Neal Morse, Steve Morse, Bumblefoot, Ritchie Kotzen, etc do. I promise you that if MP was a guitar player, he would not be in a quarter of the amount of bands he's in. It's easier to find beats/patterns/etc to other people's riffs/parts/songs than it is to write riffs/parts/songs.

The last time I've said something like this, I was almost lynched. 

People have never wondered why, among so many bands and projects, there is no solo career? No solo album?

[porcacultor]

Okay, I'm gonna say this because apparently it needs to be said. ANY AND EVERY DREAM THEATER SONG IS FAIR GAME FOR DREAM THEATER TO PLAY LIVE. It doesn't matter who wrote the lyrics. The fact is this - I promise you Mike Portnoy did not write the music for ACOS, TSF, or any Dream Theater song, therefore he has no "claim" to any DT song in that way whether or not he wrote the lyrics. I know someone's gonna say "but he helped produce bla bla bla" but helping to arrange parts that someone else wrote into a song isn't writing a song. Honestly I mean no disrespect to MP (or to drummers in general because obviously a lot of drummers do more than just drum - MM submitted riffs for D/T for example) but there's a reason why it's so easy for him to be in so many bands - frankly, it's because he's playing drums therefore he doesn't write the music in the way that JP, Neal Morse, Steve Morse, Bumblefoot, Ritchie Kotzen, etc do. I promise you that if MP was a guitar player, he would not be in a quarter of the amount of bands he's in. It's easier to find beats/patterns/etc to other people's riffs/parts/songs than it is to write riffs/parts/songs.

The last time I've said something like this, I was almost lynched. 

People have never wondered why, among so many bands and projects, there is no solo career? No solo album?

I was actually thinking about this the other day. It went something like this:



Before this gets read the wrong way, I'm honestly a big Portnoy fan. If anything, I'd love for him to write his own riffs and for us to have more music directly made by him, as opposed to him having someone else taking the writing lead. That's just not his MO, and really there's nothing wrong with that (though it is a fact that can be invoked in a discussion such as the one in this topic). I just thought the meme would be funny and now sucked all the fun out of it. Thank god for the tiny text.

[ChuckSteak]

Hmmm do you think it is disrespectful they played Space-Dye Vest?

[gzarruk]

Okay, I'm gonna say this because apparently it needs to be said. ANY AND EVERY DREAM THEATER SONG IS FAIR GAME FOR DREAM THEATER TO PLAY LIVE. It doesn't matter who wrote the lyrics. The fact is this - I promise you Mike Portnoy did not write the music for ACOS, TSF, or any Dream Theater song, therefore he has no "claim" to any DT song in that way whether or not he wrote the lyrics. I know someone's gonna say "but he helped produce bla bla bla" but helping to arrange parts that someone else wrote into a song isn't writing a song. Honestly I mean no disrespect to MP (or to drummers in general because obviously a lot of drummers do more than just drum - MM submitted riffs for D/T for example) but there's a reason why it's so easy for him to be in so many bands - frankly, it's because he's playing drums therefore he doesn't write the music in the way that JP, Neal Morse, Steve Morse, Bumblefoot, Ritchie Kotzen, etc do. I promise you that if MP was a guitar player, he would not be in a quarter of the amount of bands he's in. It's easier to find beats/patterns/etc to other people's riffs/parts/songs than it is to write riffs/parts/songs.

Bingo

[MirrorMask]

Hmmm do you think it is disrespectful they played Space-Dye Vest?

No, also because I assume Kevin Moore never cared what DT did with "his" song.

It was MP who never wanted to play it live, and it was MP who said "If we had known Kevin was leaving the band, we would have not included it on the album". Kevin Moore never really said anything about DT at all since he left, but I don't think he ever said "I hope they never play the song live", nor "I wish I had told them sooner that I was leaving so that they wouldn't use my song on the album".

That's completely different from MP saying "I wrote this song for my father, I can't bring myself emotionally to play it live, and I sure hope DT or anyone else never plays it without me".

[ChuckSteak]

Keeping quiet or not, if someone is not in the band anymore their opinion/wishes don't count. Even if you write the song and the lyrics all by yourself, you are still in the context of a band, it becomes part of it. Your fellow members play your melodies and sing your lyrics, but the song is the band's song. So I don't understand MP whining.

[JiM-Xtreme]

I think these matters are best assessed on a case-by-case basis. OK, so it might be "fair game" for Dream Theater to perform any previously recorded "Dream Theater" song, regardless of who contributed what to it and whether or not those members are still in the band. But that doesn't mean it wouldn't be weird, awkward or uncomfortable on some level if the current line-up decided to debut The Best Of Times live without MP's involvement or knowledge, for reasons that have already been addressed in this thread.

On the other hand, in the case of Space-Dye Vest, I think there's a strong chance that Kevin had already made up his mind that he was leaving the band whilst it was being recorded. So that tells me he had no problems with it being considered a "Dream Theater" song rather than a Kevin Moore song or Chroma Key song in the future. And therein, I think, lies the difference between those two examples.

With that said, I completely understand MP's reasoning for not wanting to play Space-Dye Vest live and I'm pretty sure it had nothing to do with Kevin's own feelings on the matter. I think it was more the case that it wasn't really representative of the five guys on stage who would have been performing it. It may have also had something to do with the fact that for several years, MP was quite bitter about Kevin's abrupt departure and apparent desire to sever all association with Dream Theater.