Author Topic: Abortion  (Read 4346 times)

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Offline El Barto

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Re: Abortion
« Reply #105 on: February 04, 2019, 10:07:14 AM »
Private schools? Most public schools in Texas are abstinence only with predictable results.

It's an inexact method, but you gotta start somewhere.
We did start somewhere. There was sensible sex-ed in Texas during my education years. Then we moved into the land of make-believe.
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Re: Abortion
« Reply #106 on: February 04, 2019, 10:11:00 AM »
Then we moved into the land of make-believe.

California?  :biggrin:
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Offline El Barto

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Re: Abortion
« Reply #107 on: February 04, 2019, 10:33:02 AM »
Then we moved into the land of make-believe.

California?  :biggrin:
They're beating the holy crap out of both of our states.  :lol  They're ranked 16th in teen pregnancy, which is kind of impressive given their size, population, and demographics. Texas has actually improved to 45th.
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Re: Abortion
« Reply #108 on: February 04, 2019, 01:32:20 PM »
I don't think it's been mentioned yet in this thread, but to reduce abortion rates, the best thing to do is have good education about birth control and easy access to it. Of course, the same people who are the most anti-abortion also tend to be anti-birth control and anti-sex-ed.

I've said for 15 years now that sex ed should be required for all four years of high school.  In public schools of course, as you cannot enforce that in private schools (many of which would just preach abstinence anyway).

My oldest is 12 and he has a sex education class right now in Middle School. I'm totally fine/happy about that. My wife and I have had really good conversations with him about sex/girls. I really think you can't talk to your kids enough about this stuff. This isn't a 'one and done' conversation by any means.

And, our Young Adult Pastor at Church has started a series with the 'older' kids as well. Obviously his approach is a little different....but the crux of his approach is about respecting yourself and others and trying to instill 'worth' to both the boys and girls.

But let's not kid ourselves here; nothing is absolute.  We DID have sex ed in high school, and rather in depth at that.   Having said that, we had a girl that "graduated" (I say in quotes, because I don't know that she graduated) with two children with two different fathers.   Oh well.   

Offline Chino

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Re: Abortion
« Reply #109 on: February 04, 2019, 01:45:28 PM »
I don't think it's been mentioned yet in this thread, but to reduce abortion rates, the best thing to do is have good education about birth control and easy access to it. Of course, the same people who are the most anti-abortion also tend to be anti-birth control and anti-sex-ed.

I've said for 15 years now that sex ed should be required for all four years of high school.  In public schools of course, as you cannot enforce that in private schools (many of which would just preach abstinence anyway).

My oldest is 12 and he has a sex education class right now in Middle School. I'm totally fine/happy about that. My wife and I have had really good conversations with him about sex/girls. I really think you can't talk to your kids enough about this stuff. This isn't a 'one and done' conversation by any means.

And, our Young Adult Pastor at Church has started a series with the 'older' kids as well. Obviously his approach is a little different....but the crux of his approach is about respecting yourself and others and trying to instill 'worth' to both the boys and girls.

But let's not kid ourselves here; nothing is absolute.  We DID have sex ed in high school, and rather in depth at that.   Having said that, we had a girl that "graduated" (I say in quotes, because I don't know that she graduated) with two children with two different fathers.   Oh well.

I went to a catholic school where we had 8 weeks of sex ed in 5th grade. We basically spent 8 weeks (one thirty minute session per week) learning that women have eggs and men have sperm. We learned on the last day that the penis had to be in the vagina to make a baby. There was no talk about "sex" in any real capacity. STDs were never mentioned. Sexual abuse was ignored completely. Sex never came up again in school until my junior year health class in high school. 

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Re: Abortion
« Reply #110 on: February 04, 2019, 01:50:11 PM »
I don't think it's been mentioned yet in this thread, but to reduce abortion rates, the best thing to do is have good education about birth control and easy access to it. Of course, the same people who are the most anti-abortion also tend to be anti-birth control and anti-sex-ed.

I've said for 15 years now that sex ed should be required for all four years of high school.  In public schools of course, as you cannot enforce that in private schools (many of which would just preach abstinence anyway).

My oldest is 12 and he has a sex education class right now in Middle School. I'm totally fine/happy about that. My wife and I have had really good conversations with him about sex/girls. I really think you can't talk to your kids enough about this stuff. This isn't a 'one and done' conversation by any means.

And, our Young Adult Pastor at Church has started a series with the 'older' kids as well. Obviously his approach is a little different....but the crux of his approach is about respecting yourself and others and trying to instill 'worth' to both the boys and girls.

But let's not kid ourselves here; nothing is absolute.  We DID have sex ed in high school, and rather in depth at that.   Having said that, we had a girl that "graduated" (I say in quotes, because I don't know that she graduated) with two children with two different fathers.   Oh well.

No. as for my case.....I don't think my wife and I are living in la la land and believe that this isn't an issue that needs to be constantly addressed. Let's be realistic.....our culture is so over sexualized and permissive right now. All you see everywhere is that it's 'ok' to do 'whatever'....."be you man"......it's your life.....satisfy your needs and wants. I'm not demonizing sex or anything....it's a wonderful thing.

But in our case with our sons we're really trying to help them grasp and understand that yes....you're going to see this all over....your going to have friends that will probably end up doing it.....your going to have those same desires......but our largest goal is to help them establish the respect for themselves and their bodies/feelings......and respect for women and their bodies/feelings. I can tell  you right now (not proudly) but given the circumstances in which I found myself having been exposed to pornography and abuse at a very young age.....I grew up looking at women as an object. It wasn't well into my mid to late 20's that I even began to consider that there was more to a woman than just what she could do for me. That's horrible to admit and even as I typed it ......sounds awful.

My wish and goal is for me to help my sons combat that objectification of women and help them realize everyone has worth and deserves to be respected and that they need to keep that in consideration. I think if they can have that groundwork it'd help them in the inevitable struggle and pressure their going to face when it comes to sex at a young age.

Like I said in my earlier post.....that conversation is not a one and done. It'll be ever evolving as they age but it's one I'm committed to because I'd love for them to be able to appreciate a truly beautiful woman without their immediate thought being 'boy I'd like to  :censored the  :censored out of her and  :censored it in her  :censored :censored'   
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Offline Cool Chris

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Re: Abortion
« Reply #111 on: February 04, 2019, 01:57:36 PM »
I went to a catholic school where we had 8 weeks of sex ed in 5th grade. We basically spent 8 weeks (one thirty minute session per week) learning that women have eggs and men have sperm. We learned on the last day that the penis had to be in the vagina to make a baby. There was no talk about "sex" in any real capacity. STDs were never mentioned. Sexual abuse was ignored completely. Sex never came up again in school until my junior year health class in high school. 

I've said this before but I went to a Jesuit high school and we had an extensive section of our freshman year health class - that every student had to take - devoted sex ed, that included every facet of what I believe sex ed should cover.
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Offline El Barto

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Re: Abortion
« Reply #112 on: February 04, 2019, 02:18:24 PM »
Like I said in my earlier post.....that conversation is not a one and done. It'll be ever evolving as they age but it's one I'm committed to because I'd love for them to be able to appreciate a truly beautiful woman without their immediate thought being 'boy I'd like to  :censored the  :censored out of her and  :censored it in her  :censored :censored'

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tW510JMwU8w
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Re: Abortion
« Reply #113 on: February 04, 2019, 02:22:16 PM »
I don't think it's been mentioned yet in this thread, but to reduce abortion rates, the best thing to do is have good education about birth control and easy access to it. Of course, the same people who are the most anti-abortion also tend to be anti-birth control and anti-sex-ed.

I've said for 15 years now that sex ed should be required for all four years of high school.  In public schools of course, as you cannot enforce that in private schools (many of which would just preach abstinence anyway).

My oldest is 12 and he has a sex education class right now in Middle School. I'm totally fine/happy about that. My wife and I have had really good conversations with him about sex/girls. I really think you can't talk to your kids enough about this stuff. This isn't a 'one and done' conversation by any means.

And, our Young Adult Pastor at Church has started a series with the 'older' kids as well. Obviously his approach is a little different....but the crux of his approach is about respecting yourself and others and trying to instill 'worth' to both the boys and girls.

But let's not kid ourselves here; nothing is absolute.  We DID have sex ed in high school, and rather in depth at that.   Having said that, we had a girl that "graduated" (I say in quotes, because I don't know that she graduated) with two children with two different fathers.   Oh well.

No. as for my case.....I don't think my wife and I are living in la la land and believe that this isn't an issue that needs to be constantly addressed. Let's be realistic.....our culture is so over sexualized and permissive right now. All you see everywhere is that it's 'ok' to do 'whatever'....."be you man"......it's your life.....satisfy your needs and wants. I'm not demonizing sex or anything....it's a wonderful thing.

But in our case with our sons we're really trying to help them grasp and understand that yes....you're going to see this all over....your going to have friends that will probably end up doing it.....your going to have those same desires......but our largest goal is to help them establish the respect for themselves and their bodies/feelings......and respect for women and their bodies/feelings. I can tell  you right now (not proudly) but given the circumstances in which I found myself having been exposed to pornography and abuse at a very young age.....I grew up looking at women as an object. It wasn't well into my mid to late 20's that I even began to consider that there was more to a woman than just what she could do for me. That's horrible to admit and even as I typed it ......sounds awful.

My wish and goal is for me to help my sons combat that objectification of women and help them realize everyone has worth and deserves to be respected and that they need to keep that in consideration. I think if they can have that groundwork it'd help them in the inevitable struggle and pressure their going to face when it comes to sex at a young age.

Like I said in my earlier post.....that conversation is not a one and done. It'll be ever evolving as they age but it's one I'm committed to because I'd love for them to be able to appreciate a truly beautiful woman without their immediate thought being 'boy I'd like to  :censored the  :censored out of her and  :censored it in her  :censored :censored'

I love that, and as a father of a daughter, I appreciate that very, very much.  Most of my discussions (and by "my" I mean me, my wife and ex-wife, her mom) are not about the mechanics of sex; that much my kid knows.  It's about the psychology of sex.   That sending texts of your boobies is a short term win and a long term, never ending loss.   That life doesn't have "do-overs", and while there are few mistakes that you can't overcome in some fashion, there are many many mistakes that you can't erase completely negate their consequences.

I firmly believe that there are just some things in this life that you cannot really know until you experience it.  I call it the "hot stove theory"; there are just some times you have to touch the stove to know what it's like.  (You just pray that your kid doesn't burn themselves too badly in doing so).   I had a luxury of going to a large state school for college; I was a virgin when I went, and it was in some respects like a kid in a candy store.  But there was a lot of consent going around, and it was a relatively healthy experience.   Same with substances.  But I didn't have to worry about fentanyl, or Snapchat, or worrying that photos of my c*** were going to be spread all over the internet.   

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Re: Abortion
« Reply #114 on: February 04, 2019, 03:13:09 PM »
Like I said in my earlier post.....that conversation is not a one and done. It'll be ever evolving as they age but it's one I'm committed to because I'd love for them to be able to appreciate a truly beautiful woman without their immediate thought being 'boy I'd like to  :censored the  :censored out of her and  :censored it in her  :censored :censored'

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tW510JMwU8w

 :rollin
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Offline El Barto

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Re: Abortion
« Reply #115 on: March 21, 2019, 09:42:55 PM »
So things are progressing exactly as I said they would. Mississippi officially has a "fetal heartbeat bill" now which will prohibit abortions right around the time a woman might figure out that she's pregnant. Six to eight weeks is generally when a woman pieces it all together. Six to seven weeks is around the point when a doctor will go to prison for performing the procedure. Knock off a few days to allow the local Christians to shame you and at best a woman might have 3 days to figure out she's pregnant and start the process.

The common refrain I've heard from the republicans is that RvW isn't ever going to go away. It's lost on me because I've always known that. It'll just get danced around. An injunction will be in place almost immediately. Trump will bash it as the work of Obama-judges in league with the baby-killing liberals. It'll take a while to get to the SCOTUS. When it does it will have 3-5 justices staunchly defending the idea that a right is still a right even if it doesn't actually apply to anybody.
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Re: Abortion
« Reply #116 on: March 21, 2019, 09:53:31 PM »
Just saw that news and generally agree with your sentiments. Kinda like how the right to own a firearm is eroding away. Each side gets a victory. The only losers are all of us.
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Re: Abortion
« Reply #117 on: May 15, 2019, 01:28:15 PM »
Note to self: never step foot in the state of Alabama again.

What a freaking joke.

Offline El Barto

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Re: Abortion
« Reply #118 on: May 15, 2019, 01:49:27 PM »
Note to self: never step foot in the state of Alabama again.

What a freaking joke.
Yeah, I've already planned on visiting the rocket museum in August, but I'll definitely be making it a point to not spend any money in their backwards-ass state. Meaningless in the grand scheme of things, but it means something to me.
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Re: Abortion
« Reply #119 on: May 15, 2019, 02:50:22 PM »
Note to self: never step foot in the state of Alabama again.

What a freaking joke.

Unless there are any girls there you hate. Then you can just knock them up and let them be forced to deal with it.
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Re: Abortion
« Reply #120 on: May 15, 2019, 02:51:11 PM »
Note to self: never step foot in the state of Alabama again.

What a freaking joke.
Yeah, I've already planned on visiting the rocket museum in August, but I'll definitely be making it a point to not spend any money in their backwards-ass state. Meaningless in the grand scheme of things, but it means something to me.

A shame, too, because that rocket museum kicks ass.  FYI, I still have my security badge somewhere from the facility; I was PM on a project to remediate one of the cooling ponds (where they sent the cooling water from the testing of the Saturn-model of rockets).

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Re: Abortion
« Reply #121 on: May 15, 2019, 03:00:51 PM »
Note to self: never step foot in the state of Alabama again.

What a freaking joke.

I can't really think of much of a reason to go there anyway.  I was considering it a couple years ago when I was in Atlanta to one evening drive out there just to say I visited the state, essentially a check mark on a map really.  And opted to check out a cool restaurant in Atlanta instead and can't say I regretted it.

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Re: Abortion
« Reply #122 on: May 15, 2019, 03:16:45 PM »
I saw a picture of the people that passed up that law: all white old men. Without exception.

It's like if a group of people who make a vow of celibacy and never marry and never have sex would try to dictate moral, if not actual, laws about sex. Dunno, members of a religion or something, I'm pulling examples out of thin air, that would never happen for real.
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Offline Dave_Manchester

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Re: Abortion
« Reply #123 on: May 15, 2019, 03:20:57 PM »
On an entirely separate subject, I can't wait for the Republican Party to invade Iran and liberate the free world from those backwards-assed fundamentalist whack jobs who want to impose their archaic religious morality upon the rest of us.

Interesting case this one though. There was a lengthy article on the BBC asking "why now?", concerning the Supreme Court, Roe, all that jazz. The writer seemed to think this was more of a gesture that didn't stand much of a chance of actually becoming law, whether the appeals process brings it to the SCOTUS or not (has Kavanaugh been the partisan Attila many feared? He seems to have been siding with the liberal wing on some issues here and there, such as the recent antitrust lawsuit against Apple). We'll see I guess.
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Offline El Barto

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Re: Abortion
« Reply #124 on: May 15, 2019, 03:32:18 PM »
Note to self: never step foot in the state of Alabama again.

What a freaking joke.
Yeah, I've already planned on visiting the rocket museum in August, but I'll definitely be making it a point to not spend any money in their backwards-ass state. Meaningless in the grand scheme of things, but it means something to me.

A shame, too, because that rocket museum kicks ass.  FYI, I still have my security badge somewhere from the facility; I was PM on a project to remediate one of the cooling ponds (where they sent the cooling water from the testing of the Saturn-model of rockets).
Oh, I'm still going to the museum. I'm just gonna make sure nobody in that state makes any money from me.
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Offline Dave_Manchester

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Re: Abortion
« Reply #125 on: May 15, 2019, 03:37:06 PM »
Note to self: never step foot in the state of Alabama again.

What a freaking joke.

I can't really think of much of a reason to go there anyway.  I was considering it a couple years ago when I was in Atlanta to one evening drive out there just to say I visited the state, essentially a check mark on a map really.  And opted to check out a cool restaurant in Atlanta instead and can't say I regretted it.

A couple of the boys here (Barto, Stadler, 311) know that it's my number 1 bucket list item to take a long trip through the American 'heartland' one day (don't know if that's the correct term, but I mean places like Montana, Kentucky, Idaho, Alabama, Wyoming, Missouri, Nebraska, Kansas, Iowa...). Places that aren't the traditional tourist spots (I've been to the east and west coasts of the US). Chat to the people, feel the life there, get a sense of a side of America that we (foreigners) always never see in movies or news broadcasts but which in my mind are closer to the 'real' soul of the country. Maybe it's only a romantic idealisation but the prospect of driving past an endless cornfield in Nebraska watching the towns roll by excites me far more than Manhattan or LA, great though those places are too. 

(sorry for the off-topic post)
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Offline El Barto

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Re: Abortion
« Reply #126 on: May 15, 2019, 03:38:24 PM »
On an entirely separate subject, I can't wait for the Republican Party to invade Iran and liberate the free world from those backwards-assed fundamentalist whack jobs who want to impose their archaic religious morality upon the rest of us.

Interesting case this one though. There was a lengthy article on the BBC asking "why now?", concerning the Supreme Court, Roe, all that jazz. The writer seemed to think this was more of a gesture that didn't stand much of a chance of actually becoming law, whether the appeals process brings it to the SCOTUS or not (has Kavanaugh been the partisan Attila many feared? He seems to have been siding with the liberal wing on some issues here and there, such as the recent antitrust lawsuit against Apple). We'll see I guess.
Kavanaugh is still a wildcard. Because of him and Roberts there's really no way of knowing which way this will fall. Seven of the votes are likely cast in stone at this point.

And as I mentioned in the SCOTUS thread, Kavanaugh really hates government overreach. He won't be a centrist, but he'll certainly side with the liberals in certain matters. At some point he's very likely to burn Trump the ground, which will lead to one of the all time great tweetstorms.
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Offline El Barto

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Re: Abortion
« Reply #127 on: May 15, 2019, 03:46:14 PM »
Note to self: never step foot in the state of Alabama again.

What a freaking joke.

I can't really think of much of a reason to go there anyway.  I was considering it a couple years ago when I was in Atlanta to one evening drive out there just to say I visited the state, essentially a check mark on a map really.  And opted to check out a cool restaurant in Atlanta instead and can't say I regretted it.

A couple of the boys here (Barto, Stadler, 311) know that it's my number 1 bucket list item to take a long trip through the American 'heartland' one day (don't know if that's the correct term, but I mean places like Montana, Kentucky, Idaho, Alabama, Wyoming, Missouri, Nebraska, Kansas, Iowa...). Places that aren't the traditional tourist spots (I've been to the east and west coasts of the US). Chat to the people, feel the life there, get a sense of a side of America that we (foreigners) always never see in movies or news broadcasts but which in my mind are closer to the 'real' soul of the country. Maybe it's only a romantic idealisation but driving past an endless cornfield in Nebraska watching the towns roll by excites me far more than Manhattan or LA, great though those places are too. 

(sorry for the off-topic post)
Some of it's quite scenic. Some of it's just depressing. I dug Wyoming far more than I thought I would, and South Dakota is wonderful. I honestly found Kentucky/Tennessee fairly boring. The rivers are the only thing that make it at all interesting. When you do it take the audiobook of Huckleberry Finn. That bit of nostalgia goes along way to making Tennessee not suck balls.
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Re: Abortion
« Reply #128 on: May 15, 2019, 03:58:47 PM »
I think driving through the heartland is an awesome idea, but I feel like Alabama is not a must see place though.  I went to Wyoming one day while off on a business trip in Denver and thought that state not only smelled bad but was so uninteresting, but I'm sure there's cooler spots.  The drive through cornfields is only interesting for 5 minutes too.  I feel like from my own experience, the best place for road trips and beautiful scenery is probably on the pacific north west.  Mountains, forests, rivers, just beautiful.  I am working on my next trip, Salt Lake City to Las Vegas via some national parks in Utah.  I think that might be very scenic too, but I can't comment until I do it.  Places like Alabama never make my list of states that I want to visit other than to just say I've been there.

Offline XJDenton

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Re: Abortion
« Reply #129 on: May 15, 2019, 04:50:54 PM »
I think i'll hold off visiting Alabama until it has joined the 20th century.

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Re: Abortion
« Reply #130 on: May 15, 2019, 06:10:59 PM »
Note to self: never step foot in the state of Alabama again.

What a freaking joke.

Well Kev......our State is fixing to pass our own version of the ‘heartbeat’ bill.
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Re: Abortion
« Reply #131 on: May 15, 2019, 06:12:24 PM »
Note to self: never step foot in the state of Alabama again.

What a freaking joke.

Well Kev......our State is fixing to pass our own version of the ‘heartbeat’ bill.

Oh come on!!

I know some people there who will not be happy about that.
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Re: Abortion
« Reply #132 on: May 15, 2019, 06:41:17 PM »
Jeez guys, Handmaid’s Tale is a good show and all but this live action re-enactment is getting a little much.

Online Stadler

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Re: Abortion
« Reply #133 on: May 16, 2019, 07:52:06 AM »
I saw a picture of the people that passed up that law: all white old men. Without exception.

It's like if a group of people who make a vow of celibacy and never marry and never have sex would try to dictate moral, if not actual, laws about sex. Dunno, members of a religion or something, I'm pulling examples out of thin air, that would never happen for real.

Not entirely accurate.  A version of that bill was originally proposed by a woman, and the current governor that signed the bill into law is, as I understand it, a woman. 

The law is bad enough as it stands; we don't have to pile on to make it more than it is.

Offline KevShmev

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Re: Abortion
« Reply #134 on: May 16, 2019, 07:54:58 AM »
Note to self: never step foot in the state of Alabama again.

What a freaking joke.

Well Kev......our State is fixing to pass our own version of the ‘heartbeat’ bill.

I can't imagine it will be anything close to as reprehensible as the one Alabama just passed.

Offline El Barto

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Re: Abortion
« Reply #135 on: May 16, 2019, 08:27:07 AM »
Note to self: never step foot in the state of Alabama again.

What a freaking joke.

Well Kev......our State is fixing to pass our own version of the ‘heartbeat’ bill.

I can't imagine it will be anything close to as reprehensible as the one Alabama just passed.
What's the difference? The practical upshot is the same either way. The only real difference I can see is that the other Southern/Midwestern states are trying to be subtle about it, and Bama is being blunt and obvious about its intent.
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Re: Abortion
« Reply #136 on: May 16, 2019, 08:36:58 AM »
"Why now"?  This is almost entirely political, and entirely to make a statement. A "flexing of muscles" if you will.  For better or worse (although it's the process as intended, I think it's ultimately "for worse") the courts have literally become a court - in the sporting venue sense of the word - because the legislatures have become incapable of bipartisan compromise, and courts provide, in the form of a concise decision with a final judgment, a Twitter-ready finiteness. 

For anyone watching, and anyone interested in the real interplay between the three branches of government, the ironies here are almost dizzying.  Adam Schiff and Jerry Nadler are beating the (also political) drums of "monarchy" and "dictatorship" against Trump - because these are buzzwords/code words that will land with their "base" - and asserting the "power" of Congress to provide oversight, and yet, in cases like Alabama, are almost completely abdicating their responsibility to effectively lead their constituents by deferring to the courts. 

I'm becoming more and more, day-by-day, convinced that both sides are going to be deeply disappointed by this process as it unfolds.   I don't literally mean it will be a "compromise", but I do know that there are several competing legal and political concerns at play, and they don't all lead to the same place ideologically.  The Alabama law is almost certainly not going to stand as written. I think even the proponents in state know that.  The question is whether the right to privacy is going to continue to control (which is the essence of Roe, at heart).    Having said that, abortion in Alabama - or anywhere else - is not going to be available from conception to birth, with no restrictions or no regulations.   

I think also, it's important to note that this is not going to happen in the next few weeks or months.   The stunning lack of "civics" knowledge is far more concerning to me than the substantive concepts at issue here.   The law passed, but it has to go into effect.  A woman who is pregnant and is denied an abortion under this new law.  She has to sue (and yes, timing is at issue here).  She has to win ON CONSTITUTIONAL GROUNDS and the state has to appeal (or she has to lose on constitutional grounds and she appeals).  The appellate court has to weigh in.  If the original case is in state court, the STATE Supreme Court has to weigh in.  At that point, the "loser" - assuming we're still talking about CONSTITUTIONAL ISSUES - prepares a writ of certiori, which is effectively a request for the U.S. Supreme Court to hear the case.   They can "grant certiori (or "cert")" and hear the case, or they can "deny certiori (or "cert")" and let the final ruling stand.   

It should be noted that the Supreme Court generally takes about 1% of the cases offered to it, and a denial of certiori has NO precedential meaning (in other words, if, for example, the Alabama State Supreme Court upholds the denial of an abortion, for whatever reason, and the U.S. Supreme Court decides not to hear the appeal, that DOES NOT mean that the U.S. Supreme Court agrees with the law, or believes that the lower court reached the correct decision on the merits of the case.

Why is all this important?   Because it's going to take TIME.  And in that time, we're going to get a master class of what Dr. Phil calls "outrageous overshadowing".    The Alabama law is so restrictive, that if, say, Missouri passes one that is objectively very restrictive, but subjectively not nearly as restrictive as Alabama, it may end up escaping scrutiny.  Vice versa, EVERY law with a restriction on abortion in it is going to be thrown into the "Alabama Jambalaya" by pro-choice advocates, and so the debate is going to rage for quite some time now.     

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Re: Abortion
« Reply #137 on: May 16, 2019, 08:37:52 AM »
Note to self: never step foot in the state of Alabama again.

What a freaking joke.

Well Kev......our State is fixing to pass our own version of the ‘heartbeat’ bill.

I can't imagine it will be anything close to as reprehensible as the one Alabama just passed.

The proper terminology is "deplorable". 

Offline KevShmev

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Re: Abortion
« Reply #138 on: May 16, 2019, 08:45:02 AM »
Note to self: never step foot in the state of Alabama again.

What a freaking joke.

Well Kev......our State is fixing to pass our own version of the ‘heartbeat’ bill.

I can't imagine it will be anything close to as reprehensible as the one Alabama just passed.
What's the difference? The practical upshot is the same either way. The only real difference I can see is that the other Southern/Midwestern states are trying to be subtle about it, and Bama is being blunt and obvious about its intent.

I guess time will tell, but I am not blowing smoke when I say that this kind of BS has me ready to vote for Democrats across the board in every election for the foreseeable future.  I hate the rhetoric from the left about this topic as well, but passing these laws is deplorable (happy, Stadler? :P ).

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Re: Abortion
« Reply #139 on: May 16, 2019, 09:00:18 AM »
"Why now"?  This is almost entirely political, and entirely to make a statement. A "flexing of muscles" if you will.  For better or worse (although it's the process as intended, I think it's ultimately "for worse") the courts have literally become a court - in the sporting venue sense of the word - because the legislatures have become incapable of bipartisan compromise, and courts provide, in the form of a concise decision with a final judgment, a Twitter-ready finiteness. 

For anyone watching, and anyone interested in the real interplay between the three branches of government, the ironies here are almost dizzying.  Adam Schiff and Jerry Nadler are beating the (also political) drums of "monarchy" and "dictatorship" against Trump - because these are buzzwords/code words that will land with their "base" - and asserting the "power" of Congress to provide oversight, and yet, in cases like Alabama, are almost completely abdicating their responsibility to effectively lead their constituents by deferring to the courts. 

I'm becoming more and more, day-by-day, convinced that both sides are going to be deeply disappointed by this process as it unfolds.   I don't literally mean it will be a "compromise", but I do know that there are several competing legal and political concerns at play, and they don't all lead to the same place ideologically.  The Alabama law is almost certainly not going to stand as written. I think even the proponents in state know that.  The question is whether the right to privacy is going to continue to control (which is the essence of Roe, at heart).    Having said that, abortion in Alabama - or anywhere else - is not going to be available from conception to birth, with no restrictions or no regulations.   

I think also, it's important to note that this is not going to happen in the next few weeks or months.   The stunning lack of "civics" knowledge is far more concerning to me than the substantive concepts at issue here.   The law passed, but it has to go into effect.  A woman who is pregnant and is denied an abortion under this new law.  She has to sue (and yes, timing is at issue here).  She has to win ON CONSTITUTIONAL GROUNDS and the state has to appeal (or she has to lose on constitutional grounds and she appeals).  The appellate court has to weigh in.  If the original case is in state court, the STATE Supreme Court has to weigh in.  At that point, the "loser" - assuming we're still talking about CONSTITUTIONAL ISSUES - prepares a writ of certiori, which is effectively a request for the U.S. Supreme Court to hear the case.   They can "grant certiori (or "cert")" and hear the case, or they can "deny certiori (or "cert")" and let the final ruling stand.   

It should be noted that the Supreme Court generally takes about 1% of the cases offered to it, and a denial of certiori has NO precedential meaning (in other words, if, for example, the Alabama State Supreme Court upholds the denial of an abortion, for whatever reason, and the U.S. Supreme Court decides not to hear the appeal, that DOES NOT mean that the U.S. Supreme Court agrees with the law, or believes that the lower court reached the correct decision on the merits of the case.

Why is all this important?   Because it's going to take TIME.  And in that time, we're going to get a master class of what Dr. Phil calls "outrageous overshadowing".    The Alabama law is so restrictive, that if, say, Missouri passes one that is objectively very restrictive, but subjectively not nearly as restrictive as Alabama, it may end up escaping scrutiny.  Vice versa, EVERY law with a restriction on abortion in it is going to be thrown into the "Alabama Jambalaya" by pro-choice advocates, and so the debate is going to rage for quite some time now.     
You're overlooking another possibility. There are other "less restrictive" bans already winding through he courts. It's possible that by the time Bama's case reaches the SCOTUS, and we know that it will, it will be rendered moot one way or the other.

And the why now should concern you. It's happening now because a great number of republicans think that Trump's SCOTUS appointments means that they can pass any ultra-conservative legislation they please. This shows both a fundamental lack of understanding in the nature of the court, and a great deal of faith that Trump is essentially a tyrant.
Argument, the presentation of reasonable views, never makes headway against conviction, and conviction takes no part in argument because it knows.
E.F. Benson