Author Topic: Abortion  (Read 4511 times)

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Offline Phoenix87x

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Abortion
« on: January 30, 2019, 04:40:41 PM »

Offline Adami

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Re: Abortion
« Reply #1 on: January 30, 2019, 04:49:01 PM »
I just browsed the bill, so maybe I'm wrong here, but it doesn't allow blanket abortion til the time of birth.

It allows it for 24 weeks, or up til the time of birth if the mother's life is at risk.


That is very different than abortion til birth.
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Offline lordxizor

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Re: Abortion
« Reply #2 on: January 30, 2019, 05:53:50 PM »
It allows it for 24 weeks, or up til the time of birth if the mother's life is at risk.
Personally, I think this sounds reasonable.

I'm a guy who falls into the "I would never get an abortion, but I think it should be legal for those who choose to get one" camp. Of course, I can't get one since I'm a man, but you get my meaning. In an ideal world there would be no need for them, but I'm a realist. As much as I hate the thought of unborn babies not getting a chance at life, I think there are more than enough people in the world and I don't want unwanted babies to be forced on unwilling parents.

Offline Chino

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Re: Abortion
« Reply #3 on: January 31, 2019, 05:49:44 AM »
Abortion is a necessary evil. I don't particularly like it. If Victoria got pregnant, I'd do everything I could to convince her to not have one. I also really hate the defense "it's a woman's body, it's her decision". Well, not really. The thing she's aborting has a different and completely unique genome. It is a person, regardless of stage. If you're going to abort your child, at least call a spade a spade. Don't sugar coat it as "a woman's body" like she's deciding whether or not to get a breast reduction or botox injections. At least admit you're making the conscious decision to terminate the life of another human being early.

Also, the 24 week thing means nothing to me. A good friend of mine and his wife had been trying to conceive for almost 5 years. Two years ago they used in vitro fertilization (his sperm) and she ended up getting pregnant with twins. At 20 weeks in, she thought she was having a heart attack and was rushed to the hospital. Turns out she was in labor. The first one came out dead, and the second one died minutes after coming out. My friend held both of them in his hands. They had faces and hands with fingers. They were given names. They received death certificates. They were cremated. Those were people a full month before that 24 week cutoff.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2019, 06:42:41 AM by Chino »

Offline TAC

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Re: Abortion
« Reply #4 on: January 31, 2019, 06:37:15 AM »
Abortion is a necessary evil. I don't particularly like it. If Victoria got pregnant, I'd do everything I could to convince her to not have one. I also really hate the defense "it's a woman's body, it's her decision", well, not really. The thing she's aborting has a different and completely unique genome. It is a person, regardless of stage. If you're going to abort your child, at least call a spade a spade. Don't sugar coat it as "a woman's body" like she's deciding whether or not to get a breast reduction or botox injections. At least admit you're making the conscious decision to terminate the life of another human being early.

That's an interesting take. I like it.
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Offline Stadler

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Re: Abortion
« Reply #5 on: January 31, 2019, 06:45:41 AM »
Abortion is a necessary evil. I don't particularly like it. If Victoria got pregnant, I'd do everything I could to convince her to not have one. I also really hate the defense "it's a woman's body, it's her decision", well, not really. The thing she's aborting has a different and completely unique genome. It is a person, regardless of stage. If you're going to abort your child, at least call a spade a spade. Don't sugar coat it as "a woman's body" like she's deciding whether or not to get a breast reduction or botox injections. At least admit you're making the conscious decision to terminate the life of another human being early.

That's an interesting take. I like it.

As do I.

Offline gmillerdrake

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Re: Abortion
« Reply #6 on: January 31, 2019, 07:41:25 AM »
Also, the 24 week thing means nothing to me.

You and me both.

My nephew Maximus was born at 23 weeks 3 days:




He turns 6 in March:









I think abortion as a form of birth control is absolutely wrong.....and unfortunately the majority of abortions are just that. 'I' don't want to be pregnant or have a kid. Not life threatening situations for mother or child or incest or whatever.....simple, I don't want a kid. That's where you lose me on the issue. I'm compassionate and understanding to the health risk side (both mother and child) but when you're having your second and third abortion because you keep getting knocked up....seems to me the surgery you need is a tubal ligation not an abortion.
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Offline Chino

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Re: Abortion
« Reply #7 on: January 31, 2019, 07:47:53 AM »
Damn. Do you know what Maximus' weight was when he was born?

Offline gmillerdrake

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Re: Abortion
« Reply #8 on: January 31, 2019, 07:52:23 AM »
Damn. Do you know what Maximus' weight was when he was born?

He was 1 lb 5 oz.



The NICU Nurses Started calling him 'Mighty Max' as he kept battling and getting stronger

   
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Offline El Barto

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Re: Abortion
« Reply #9 on: January 31, 2019, 08:17:15 AM »
At the same time you've got blue states seeking to allow late term abortions, you've got red states passing "fetal heartbeat" bills that effectively ban abortions after 6 weeks. That means abortions are prohibited before ~50% or so women will even know they done been knocked up. Those who do will have a very narrow window to work within, and I suspect a subsequent bill will mandate a 2 week period of reading bedtime stories to your unborn fetus, pretty much shutting them down, as well.

We seem to have something of an arms race going on.
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Offline gmillerdrake

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Re: Abortion
« Reply #10 on: January 31, 2019, 08:39:37 AM »
Well this guy wants to allow the mom and doctor to be able to talk about if she wants the baby or not AFTER it's been born. So now the mothers 'feelings' are being evaluated as well....not just if it's a physical threat but after you have the baby....how are you feeling 'mentally'.

This type of idea is insane and a perfect example of if you move the needle just a hair at the 'start point' by the time you get 200 yards down range you're off by a foot.

https://freebeacon.com/issues/northman-on-40-week-abortion-bill-infant-would-be-delivered-and-then-a-discussion-would-ensue-between-the-physicians-and-the-mother/




I suspect a subsequent bill will mandate a 2 week period of reading bedtime stories to your unborn fetus, pretty much shutting them down, as well.

I know you were just being cute to make a point with this statement but there should be some period of education for the women prior to her deciding to having the procedure. I thought about posting pics and vids that explain the abortion procedure....especially the ones that happen after 24 weeks but you guys are all grown ups and know what happens. It's brutal.
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Offline Ruba

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Re: Abortion
« Reply #11 on: January 31, 2019, 08:59:33 AM »
One thing to keep in mind about abortions is that they will be performed, whether they are legal or not. If they are illegal or made very difficult to get, women might have to travel elsewhere to get abortions or in worst case scenario, get a "back alley"-abortion, which are significantly more dangerous and might end the woman's life as well. Even if you hate the idea of "babies being killed", it is better that abortions are performed by health care professionals in hospitals.
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Offline bosk1

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Re: Abortion
« Reply #12 on: January 31, 2019, 09:05:37 AM »
Home invasion robberies are going to happen.  That being the case, we are better off as a society if home invasion robberies are performed legally, by highly trained experts who are more efficient at it. 
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Offline El Barto

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Re: Abortion
« Reply #13 on: January 31, 2019, 09:06:58 AM »
Well this guy wants to allow the mom and doctor to be able to talk about if she wants the baby or not AFTER it's been born. So now the mothers 'feelings' are being evaluated as well....not just if it's a physical threat but after you have the baby....how are you feeling 'mentally'.

This type of idea is insane and a perfect example of if you move the needle just a hair at the 'start point' by the time you get 200 yards down range you're off by a foot.

https://freebeacon.com/issues/northman-on-40-week-abortion-bill-infant-would-be-delivered-and-then-a-discussion-would-ensue-between-the-physicians-and-the-mother/

Quote
Attempts to extrapolate these comments otherwise is in bad faith and underscores exactly why the governor believes physicians and women, not legislators, should make these difficult and deeply personal medical decisions,
Yep. He's creating an highly unrealistic scenario to make a point. Also, AFAIK abortion doctors don't deliver children. Obstetricians do. You're going to run into a massive problem with medical ethics at that point.

And you can ridicule "feelings" all you like, but of course they're a key factor in all decisions that we make.


Quote
I know you were just being cute to make a point with this statement but there should be some period of education for the women prior to her deciding to having the procedure. I thought about posting pics and vids that explain the abortion procedure....especially the ones that happen after 24 weeks but you guys are all grown ups and know what happens. It's brutal.
I'd say it's about 50/50 cute and serious. The 1A gets kind of glossed over when it comes to abortion (the pro-life side, that is), leading to all manner of oddball stuff, clearly intended to humanize the foetus.
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Offline gmillerdrake

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Re: Abortion
« Reply #14 on: January 31, 2019, 09:14:36 AM »
And you can ridicule "feelings" all you like, but of course they're a key factor in all decisions that we make.

I understand that completely. But, I don't know how a woman/mother who just went through a delivery (presumably) medicated and also naturally jacked full of the bodies own hormones that are released in childbirth....can be expected to make a clear choice? And, if they wait until she's 'sober minded'....that baby has now been alive for what.....three minutes.....five, ten....half hour...hour? There's no circumstance in the world where then she can say 'I don't want it' and it's OK to kill that person. None.

Quote
I know you were just being cute to make a point with this statement but there should be some period of education for the women prior to her deciding to having the procedure. I thought about posting pics and vids that explain the abortion procedure....especially the ones that happen after 24 weeks but you guys are all grown ups and know what happens. It's brutal.
I'd say it's about 50/50 cute and serious. The 1A gets kind of glossed over when it comes to abortion (the pro-life side, that is), leading to all manner of oddball stuff, clearly intended to humanize the foetus.

And thus there is the crux of the issue. One camp sees it as a 'foetus'.....another a 'person'. And both sides can dig in and defend their perspective with a strong fight. I'm sure you know what side I'd defend and certainly don't see the evidence offered as 'oddball stuff'...ESPECIALLY in the instances of after 24 weeks.
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Offline Stadler

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Re: Abortion
« Reply #15 on: January 31, 2019, 09:23:51 AM »
One thing to keep in mind about abortions is that they will be performed, whether they are legal or not. If they are illegal or made very difficult to get, women might have to travel elsewhere to get abortions or in worst case scenario, get a "back alley"-abortion, which are significantly more dangerous and might end the woman's life as well. Even if you hate the idea of "babies being killed", it is better that abortions are performed by health care professionals in hospitals.

Jealous husbands are going to kill their whore wife's lovers whether it's illegal or not, so we should just allow that to happen. 

EDIT:  Ninja'd by Bosk. 

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Re: Abortion
« Reply #16 on: January 31, 2019, 09:42:45 AM »
So you're comparing abortion to a selfish crime just like robberies and passion driver murders? and do you realistically think there could ever be a moment when robberies or murders become socially acceptable?

Just to make an example, I'm sure back in the days when the debate about voting rights for women was rampant, there must have been people saying "Well, if we give voting rights to women what's next? allowing our dogs to vote?" no, obviously dogs will never ever be allowed to vote. And murders will never, ever be justified, even if it'a a crime of passion. So I don't see the reason or the need to consider abortion aking to robbery or murder.

As people already posted it's silly and irresponsable to use abortion as a late anti pregnancy measure, but it is a right that should be granted for any variety of medical and psychological reasons (victims of rape getting pregnant for example), and yes, it's absolutely and totally necessary to regulate it.
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Offline bosk1

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Re: Abortion
« Reply #17 on: January 31, 2019, 09:52:01 AM »
So you're comparing abortion to a selfish crime just like robberies and passion driver murders?

No.  Because that would be off topic.  But it is an apt comparison in many aspects, so if you'd like to, go for it.

...and do you realistically think there could ever be a moment when ... murders become socially acceptable?

They already are.  That's what this thread is about.
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Online MirrorMask

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Re: Abortion
« Reply #18 on: January 31, 2019, 10:00:04 AM »
Maybe not the best source for the defition, but Wikipedia states "Murder is the unlawful killing of another human without justification or valid excuse, especially the unlawful killing of another human being with malice aforethought."

Interrupting a pregnancy in its early stages because of fatal complications for the mother or not wanting to keep the result of a rape does not seem to me to fall in that category. Calling abortion a murder is a gross oversimplification.

Also, don't think that - stupid and irresponsable people aforementioned who consider it a more invasive day-after pill - women who decide to get an abortion do it like they do a haircut.... it's something they'll carry the memory of forever, don't assume it's something they do joyfully or without emotional scars that will last a lifetime.
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Offline Stadler

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Re: Abortion
« Reply #19 on: January 31, 2019, 10:14:36 AM »
So you're comparing abortion to a selfish crime just like robberies and passion driver murders? and do you realistically think there could ever be a moment when robberies or murders become socially acceptable?

Just to make an example, I'm sure back in the days when the debate about voting rights for women was rampant, there must have been people saying "Well, if we give voting rights to women what's next? allowing our dogs to vote?" no, obviously dogs will never ever be allowed to vote. And murders will never, ever be justified, even if it'a a crime of passion. So I don't see the reason or the need to consider abortion aking to robbery or murder.

Well, point of fact, "murder" (in quotes because murder is a specific crime dependent on jurisdiction; I'm referring to the general idea of "unlawfully killing another human being with intent") is often and regularly justified.  I think the idea here is not to "equate" certain acts, but rather to say that if you're going to make that distinction, then the legal justification requires more than just "common sense" rationality.  I am adamantly, FIERCELY pro-choice, but I also believe Chino is right as rain. It is what it is, and we ought to face that if we're going to have an intelligent informed discussion about it.  We have an interesting and curious tendency as humans to delude ourselves with our language.   

EDIT:  Again ninja'd by Bosk.  Dammit.

Quote
As people already posted it's silly and irresponsable to use abortion as a late anti pregnancy measure, but it is a right that should be granted for any variety of medical and psychological reasons (victims of rape getting pregnant for example), and yes, it's absolutely and totally necessary to regulate it.

No argument.  I think the subject here, though is in those vast grey areas that don't neatly fit into the categories you listed above.  I've told the story before; my daughter was "diagnosed" with Down's syndrome during pregnancy and we were "offered" the option of abortion.  It would clearly have been for "medical reasons" and would have absolutely been my wife's choice (meaning, all perfectly legal and reasonable).  That girl will be turning 18 on Saturday, in June will be graduating with honors from one of the top five high schools in the COUNTRY, and already has a free ride (via merit scholarships) to three of the four schools she's heard back from so far.  I don't say that to argue that the "medical reasons" aren't valid, or that my wife shouldn't have had the choice back then, but to say that this stuff is not as simple as words like "should" and "right" imply. 

If we're really as interested in the health and well-being of our mothers as we say, we need to be prepared for that discussion of "well, uh, we were wrong about that diagnosis of Down's".  Or, conversely, be prepared to accept that the abortion was done because of the "medical reason" that the dad turned out to be a cheating piece of shit that has no intention of supporting this kid.

Offline Grappler

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Re: Abortion
« Reply #20 on: January 31, 2019, 10:23:14 AM »
Also, don't think that - stupid and irresponsable people aforementioned who consider it a more invasive day-after pill - women who decide to get an abortion do it like they do a haircut.... it's something they'll carry the memory of forever, don't assume it's something they do joyfully or without emotional scars that will last a lifetime.

This is definitely true, and I can't stand when people think that women have abortions on a whim.  15 years ago, I had a friend that got pregnant.  She asked me what I thought - I gave her my advice and I"m sure I was one of many she asked.  Based on the entire situation of her pregnancy, she chose to have an abortion.  The next time I hung out with her and she told me about it, I could see the pain in her eyes.  Women don't choose this as a non-nonchalant option.  It is a life-altering decision that they make, and they should have that right to make it. 

My college friend's wife had an abortion.  They conceived and during the pregnancy, they learned that the fetus did not have a brain.  It had zero chance of survival at birth.  But it still had a fetal heartbeat.  Should a family be forced to carry a baby to term when they know that the baby will die immediately upon being born because someone else thinks that it's wrong to *kill* a fetus.    There are way too many variables in the human gestation to fully outlaw abortions. 

For me, regardless of the end result of the procedure, I really dislike the fact that the government needs to legislate whether or not a person can choose to undergo a medical procedure.  I think that's a slippery slope.

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Re: Abortion
« Reply #21 on: January 31, 2019, 10:32:39 AM »
It is a bit sad to me that there is such strong reaction to the welfare of these unborn children, yet there are millions of actual children suffering for a variety of reasons..... reasons that could easily be mitigated by society if we really cared.  I get the feeling people want to fight for the unborn child, but once youíre born, hey you are on your own.
Not saying all are like that , but is really does seem that way sometimes.

As far as my personal views, as am pro- choice.  But I can certainly empathize with how pro- lifers feel
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Offline Harmony

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Re: Abortion
« Reply #22 on: January 31, 2019, 10:40:48 AM »
I know, I know.....tldr.  But a worthy read IMO.  I know there will be a lot of defensiveness after I post this.  That's ok.  Expected.  Just ask yourself why you might feel defensive is all that I ask before commenting.

Author:  Gabrielle Blair; link at the bottom

Iím a mother of six, and a Mormon. I have a good understanding of arguments surrounding abortion, religious and otherwise. I've been listening to men grandstand about women's reproductive rights, and I'm convinced men actually have zero interest in stopping abortion. Here's whyÖ

If you want to stop abortion, you need to prevent unwanted pregnancies. And men are 100% responsible for unwanted pregnancies. No for real, they are. Perhaps you are thinking: IT TAKES TWO! And yes, it does take two for _intentional_ pregnancies.

But ALL unwanted pregnancies are caused by the irresponsible ejaculations of men. Period. Donít believe me? Let me walk you through it. Letís start with this: women can only get pregnant about 2 days each month. And thatís for a limited number of years.

That makes 24 days a year a women might get pregnant. But men can _cause_ pregnancy 365 days a year. In fact, if youíre a man who ejaculates multiple times a day, you could cause multiple pregnancies daily. In theory a man could cause 1000+ unwanted pregnancies in just one year.

And though their sperm gets crappier as they age, men can cause unwanted pregnancies from puberty till death. So just starting with basic biology + the calendar itís easy to see men are the issue here.

But what about birth control? If a woman doesnít want to risk an unwanted pregnancy, why wouldnít she just use birth control? If a women can manage to figure out how to get an abortion, surely she can get birth control, right? Great questions.

Modern birth control is possibly the greatest invention of the last century, and I am very grateful for it. Itís also brutal. The side effects for many women are ridiculously harmful. So ridiculous, that when an oral contraception for men was created, it wasnít approvedÖ

Ö because of the side effects. And the list of side effects was about 1/3 as long as the known side effects for women's oral contraception.

Thereís a lot to be unpacked just in that story, but Iíll simply point out (in case you didnít know) that as a society, we really donít mind if women suffer, physically or mentally, as long as it makes things easier for men.

But good news, Men: Even with the horrible side effects, women are still very willing to use birth control. Unfortunately itís harder to get than it should be. Birth control options for women require a doctorís appointment and a prescription. Itís not free, and often not cheap.
In fact there are many people trying to make it more expensive by fighting to make sure insurance companies refuse to cover it. Oral contraceptives for women canít be acquired easily, or at the last minute. And they don't work instantly.

If weíre talking about the pill, it requires consistent daily use and doesnít leave much room for mistakes, forgetfulness, or unexpected disruptions to daily schedules. And again, the side effects can be brutal. IíM STILL GRATEFUL FOR IT PLEASE DONíT TAKE IT AWAY.

Iím just saying women's birth control isnít simple or easy. In contrast, letís look at birth control for men, meaning condoms. Condoms are readily available at all hours, inexpensive, convenient, and donít require a prescription. Theyíre effective, and work on demand, instantly.

Men can keep them stocked up just in case, so theyíre always prepared. Amazing! They are so much easier than birth control options for women. As a bonus, in general, women love when men use condoms. They keep us from getting STDs, they donít lessen our pleasure during sexÖ

Ö or prevent us from climaxing. And the best part? Clean up is so much easier ó no waddling to the toilet as your smile drips down our legs. So why in the world are there ever unwanted pregnancies? Why don't men just use condoms every time they have sex? Seems so simple, right?

Oh. I remember. Men _donít_ love condoms. In fact, men frequently pressure women to have sex without a condom. And itís not unheard of for men to remove the condom during sex, without the womenís permission or knowledge. (Pro-tip: That's assault.)

Why would men want to have sex without a condom? Good question. Apparently itís because for the minutes they are penetrating their partner, having no condom on gives the experience more pleasure.

SoÖ there are men willing to risk getting a woman pregnant ó which means literally risking her life, her health, her social status, her relationships, and her career, so that they can experience a few minutes of _slightly_ more pleasure? Is that for real? Yes. Yes it is.

What are we talking about here pleasure-wise? If thereís a pleasure scale, with pain beginning at zero and going down into the negatives, a back-scratch falling at 5, and an orgasm without a condom being a 10, where would sex _with_ a condom fall? Like a 7 or 8?

So itís not like sex with a condom is _not_ pleasurable, itís just not _as_ pleasurable. An 8 instead of a 10. Let me emphasize that again: Men regularly choose to put women at massive risk by having non-condom sex, in order to experience a few minutes of slightly more pleasure.

Now keep in mind, for the truly condom-averse, men also have a non-condom, always-ready birth control built right in, called the pull out. Itís not perfect, and it's a favorite joke, but it is also 96% effective.

So surely, we can expect men who arenít wearing a condom to at least pull out every time they have sex, right?

Nope.

And why not?

Well, again, apparently itís _slightly_ more pleasurable to climax inside a vagina than, say, on their partnerís stomach. So men are willing to risk the life, health and well-being of women, in order to experience a tiny bit more pleasure for like 5 seconds during orgasm.

Itís mind-boggling and disturbing when you realize thatís the choice men are making. And honestly, Iím not as mad as I should be about this, because weíve trained men from birth that their pleasure is of utmost importance in the world. (And to dis-associate sex and pregnancy.)

While weíre here, letís talk a bit more about pleasure and biology. Did you know that a man CAN'T get a woman pregnant without having an orgasm? Which means that we can conclude getting a woman pregnant is a pleasurable act for men.

But did you further know that men CAN get a woman pregnant without HER feeling any pleasure at all? In fact, itís totally possible for a man to impregnate a woman even while causing her excruciating pain, trauma or horror.

In contrast, a woman can have non-stop orgasms with or without a partner and never once get herself pregnant. A womanís orgasm has literally nothing to do with pregnancy or fertility ó her clitoris exists not for creating new babies, but simply for pleasure.

No matter how many orgasms she has, they wonít make her pregnant. Pregnancies can only happen when men have an orgasm. Unwanted pregnancies can only happen when men orgasm irresponsibly.

What this means is a women can be the sluttliest slut in the entire world who loves having orgasms all day long and all night long and she will never find herself with an unwanted pregnancy unless a man shows up and ejaculates irresponsibly.

Women enjoying sex does not equal unwanted pregnancy and abortion. Men enjoying sex and having irresponsible ejaculations is what causes unwanted pregnancies and abortion.

Letís talk more about responsibility. Men often donít know, and donít ask, and donít think to ask, if theyíve caused a pregnancy. They may never think of it, or associate sex with making babies at all. Why? Because there are 0 consequences for men who cause unwanted pregnancies.

If the woman decides to have an abortion, the man may never know he caused an unwanted pregnancy with his irresponsible ejaculation.

If the woman decides to have the baby, or put the baby up for adoption, the man may never know he caused an unwanted pregnancy with his irresponsible ejaculation, or that thereís now a child walking around with 50% of his DNA.

If the woman does tell him that he caused an unwanted pregnancy and that sheís having the baby, the closest thing to a consequence for him, is that he may need to pay child support. But our current child support system is well-known to be a joke.

61% of men (or women) who are legally required to pay it, simply donít. With little or no repercussions. Their credit isnít even affected. So, many men keep going as is, causing unwanted pregnancies with irresponsible ejaculations and never giving it thought.

When the topic of abortion comes up, men might think: Abortion is horrible; women should not have abortions. And never once consider the man who CAUSED the unwanted pregnancy. If youíre not holding men responsible for unwanted pregnancies, then you are wasting your time.

Stop protesting at clinics. Stop shaming women. Stop trying to overturn abortion laws. If you actually care about reducing or eliminating the number of abortions in our country, simply HOLD MEN RESPONSIBLE FOR THEIR ACTIONS.

What would that look like? What if there was a real and immediate consequence for men who cause an unwanted pregnancy? What kind of consequence would make sense? Should it be as harsh, painful, nauseating, scarring, expensive, risky, and life-alteringÖ

Ö as forcing a woman to go through a 9-month unwanted pregnancy?

In my experience, men really like their testicles. If irresponsible ejaculations were putting their balls at risk, they would stop being irresponsible. Does castration seem like a cruel and unusual punishment? Definitely.

But is it worse than forcing 500,000 women a year to puke daily for months, gain 40 pounds, and then rip their bodies apart in childbirth? Is a handful of castrations worse than women dying during forced pregnancy & childbirth?

Put a castration law on the books, implement the law, let the media tell the story, and in 3 months or less, tada! abortions will have virtually disappeared. Can you picture it? No more abortions in less than 3 months, without ever trying to outlaw them. Amazing.

For those of you who consider abortion to be murder, wouldnít you be on board with having a handful of men castrated, if it prevented 500,000 murders each year?

And if not, is that because you actually care more about policing womenís bodies, morality, and sexuality, than you do about reducing or eliminating abortions? (Thatís a rhetorical question.)

Hey, you can even have the men who will be castrated bank their sperm before it happens ó just in case they want to responsibly have kids some day.

Canít wrap your head around a physical punishment for men? Even though you seem to be more than fine with physical punishments for women? Okay. Then how about this prevention idea: At the onset of puberty, all males in the U.S. could be required by law to get a vasectomy.

Vasectomies are very safe, totally reversible, and about as invasive as an doctor's exam for a woman getting a birth control prescription. There is some soreness afterwards for about 24 hours, but thatís pretty much it for side effects.

(So much better than The Pill, which is taken by millions of women in our country, the side effects of which are well known and can be brutal.)

If/when the male becomes a responsible adult, and perhaps finds a mate, if they want to have a baby, the vasectomy can be reversed, and then redone once the childbearing stage is over. And each male can bank their sperm before the vasectomy, just in case.

It's not that wild of an idea. 80% of males in the U.S. are circumcised, most as babies. And that's not reversible.

Donít like my ideas? Thatís fine. Iím sure there are better ones. Go ahead and suggest your own ideas. My point is that itís nonsense to focus on women if youíre trying to get rid of abortions. Abortion is the ďcureĒ for an unwanted pregnancy.

If you want to stop abortions, you need to prevent the ďdisease" - meaning, unwanted pregnancies. And the only way to do that, is by focusing on men, because: MEN CAUSE 100% OF UNWANTED PREGNANCIES. Or. IRRESPONSIBLE EJACULATIONS BY MEN CAUSE 100% OF UNWANTED PREGNANCIES.

If youíre a man, what would the consequence need to be for you to never again ejaculate irresponsibly? Would it be money related? Maybe a loss of rights or freedoms? Physical pain?

Ask yourselves: What would it take for you to value the life of your sexual partner more than your own temporary pleasure or convenience?

Are you someone who learns better with analogies? Letís try this one: Think of another great pleasure in life, letís say food. Think of your favorite meal, dessert, or drink.

What if you found out that every time you indulge in that favorite food you risked causing great physical and mental pain for someone you know intimately. You might not cause any pain, but itís a real risk.

Well, youíd probably be sad, but never indulge in that food again, right? Not worth the risk!

And then, what if you further found out, there was a simple thing you could do before you ate that favorite food, and it would eliminate the risk of causing pain to someone else. Which is great news!

BUT the simple thing you need to do makes the experience of eating the food slightly less pleasurable. To be clear, it would still be VERY pleasurable, but slightly less so. Like maybe you have to eat the food with a fork or spoon that you donít particularly like.

Would you be willing to do that simple thing, and eliminate the risk of causing pain to someone you know intimately, every single time you ate your favorite food?

OF COURSE YOU WOULD.

Condoms (or even pulling out) is that simple thing. Donít put women at risk. Donít choose to maximize your own pleasure if it risks causing women pain.

Men mostly run our government. Men mostly make the laws. And men could eliminate abortions in 3 months or less without ever touching an abortion law or evening mentioning women.

In summary: STOP TRYING TO CONTROL WOMEN'S BODIES AND SEXUALITY. UNWANTED PREGNANCIES ARE CAUSED BY MEN.

The end.

https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1040363431893725184.html

Offline gmillerdrake

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Re: Abortion
« Reply #23 on: January 31, 2019, 10:43:02 AM »
Interrupting a pregnancy in its early stages because of fatal complications for the mother or not wanting to keep the result of a rape does not seem to me to fall in that category.

When compared to the number of abortions that have been performed legally to date.....60 million plus.....the percentage of them performed for the reasons you stated is extremely low. Fact is abortion is largely a form or extension of birth control plain and simple.

The debate can carry on all day long and forever but to pollute the conversation with 'saving the moms life' or instances of incest or rape is intentionally trying to take away from the fact that 95% plus of these abortions are simply birth control.

I don't think you'd find many people who would argue against allowing an abortion if the mother was gravely threatened by carrying or delivering a baby....or if she'd been raped....or if the baby was going to have a horrific experience. But those aren't the instances that dominate the overwhelming majority of abortions.
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Re: Abortion
« Reply #24 on: January 31, 2019, 10:44:02 AM »
Maybe not the best source for the defition, but Wikipedia states "Murder is the unlawful killing of another human without justification or valid excuse, especially the unlawful killing of another human being with malice aforethought."

Interrupting a pregnancy in its early stages because of fatal complications for the mother or not wanting to keep the result of a rape does not seem to me to fall in that category. Calling abortion a murder is a gross oversimplification.

Also, don't think that - stupid and irresponsable people aforementioned who consider it a more invasive day-after pill - women who decide to get an abortion do it like they do a haircut.... it's something they'll carry the memory of forever, don't assume it's something they do joyfully or without emotional scars that will last a lifetime.
I agree with everything you've said in this thread. Comparing abortion to murder is insulting to all the medical professionals who perform them, and as you said, it's not like women go "Whoops, I got pregnant! Oh well, no biggie - let's just abort the fetus!" A while ago I read a newspaper article where women talked about their abortion experiences, and it was not light reading.

Another point worth considering is that no form of contraception works in 100% of the cases, and it's not always the couple's fault if it fails. Should we punish (I apologize for not coming up with a more appropriate word here) them if, say, the woman's IUD is not perfectly in place and she gets pregnant? I believe every child deserves to be wanted (not saying every unwanted baby should've been aborted!).

Having said all that, I believe 24 weeks is a bit too much (unless the mother is in danger), given that there are examples - such as Gary's nephew - of children who were born before that point and continue to live healthily. I personally would only limit it to the point where you can be totally sure that the fetus would not survive outside the womb, which I suppose would be somewhere around 20 weeks, given that the most premature surviving baby was born after 21 weeks and 4 days according to news reports.

Offline gmillerdrake

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Re: Abortion
« Reply #25 on: January 31, 2019, 10:47:12 AM »
I know, I know.....tldr.  But a worthy read IMO.  I know there will be a lot of defensiveness after I post this.  That's ok.  Expected.  Just ask yourself why you might feel defensive is all that I ask before commenting.

Worthy? Ha ha..Not at all. The article should have ended at 'it takes two to tango'. That's it. If you're having underaged (or not) unprotected sex....when you can't afford to become a parent....that's it....both parties are responsible. Period. This 'article' if you can call it that does nothing more than try to place blame and take blame away....which is a common occurrence in today's society. "Ain't my fault....it's his/hers"
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Re: Abortion
« Reply #26 on: January 31, 2019, 11:10:55 AM »
And you can ridicule "feelings" all you like, but of course they're a key factor in all decisions that we make.

I understand that completely. But, I don't know how a woman/mother who just went through a delivery (presumably) medicated and also naturally jacked full of the bodies own hormones that are released in childbirth....can be expected to make a clear choice? And, if they wait until she's 'sober minded'....that baby has now been alive for what.....three minutes.....five, ten....half hour...hour? There's no circumstance in the world where then she can say 'I don't want it' and it's OK to kill that person. None.
Again, you're using a made up scenario that will never happen. Joseph Mengele is neither alive nor an obstetrician. But since you do seem to be concerned that a woman immediately post-partum ins't capable of making a rational decision, are you willing to extend that sympathy to the dumb, terrified girl who squirts a kid out in the women's room at Arby's and drives off into the sunset?


Quote
Quote
I know you were just being cute to make a point with this statement but there should be some period of education for the women prior to her deciding to having the procedure. I thought about posting pics and vids that explain the abortion procedure....especially the ones that happen after 24 weeks but you guys are all grown ups and know what happens. It's brutal.
I'd say it's about 50/50 cute and serious. The 1A gets kind of glossed over when it comes to abortion (the pro-life side, that is), leading to all manner of oddball stuff, clearly intended to humanize the foetus.

And thus there is the crux of the issue. One camp sees it as a 'foetus'.....another a 'person'. And both sides can dig in and defend their perspective with a strong fight. I'm sure you know what side I'd defend and certainly don't see the evidence offered as 'oddball stuff'...ESPECIALLY in the instances of after 24 weeks.
Oddball didn't refer to the legitimacy of either sides argument, but rather the weird laws we're willing to enact.
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Re: Abortion
« Reply #27 on: January 31, 2019, 11:11:55 AM »
I know, I know.....tldr.  But a worthy read IMO.  I know there will be a lot of defensiveness after I post this.  That's ok.  Expected.  Just ask yourself why you might feel defensive is all that I ask before commenting.

Worthy? Ha ha..Not at all. The article should have ended at 'it takes two to tango'. That's it. If you're having underaged (or not) unprotected sex....when you can't afford to become a parent....that's it....both parties are responsible. Period. This 'article' if you can call it that does nothing more than try to place blame and take blame away....which is a common occurrence in today's society. "Ain't my fault....it's his/hers"

I'd go one further; there are threads here with post after post about "#MeToo" and where I can't even complement a woman's selection of wardrobe without making her "uncomfortable" and creating a "hostile environment" - and potentially facing consequences for same, including loss of job, and even jail time -  and now, somehow, I'm 100% - not 95, not 99, not even 99.9999% but 100% - responsible for her pregnancy?   So what, "consent" is situational AND contextual, not just in time but in scope too? "I consent to fuck you, but I do not consent to any resulting pregnancy, whether real or imagined, healthy or not, carried to term or aborted, still born or miscarried"?    And don't get me started on the relative subjectivity of "pleasure" (point of scientific fact: the male orgasm and the Mal ejaculation are NOT the same thing; they can and do happen independently.)

Yeah, there are some worthy thoughts in there but the premise is faulty enough (coupled with the snarky judgmental writing style) that it undermines what few nuggets are there.

(To be fair, I believe that "pregnancies" are joint and several, meaning we're BOTH "100% responsible" for the resulting pregnancy.  The rights and obligations may be different, but welcome to the real world.  If we're both consenting adults, we're both responsible for our actions.)

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Re: Abortion
« Reply #28 on: January 31, 2019, 11:17:15 AM »
So you're comparing abortion to a selfish crime just like robberies and passion driver murders?

No.  Because that would be off topic.  But it is an apt comparison in many aspects, so if you'd like to, go for it.
Not an apt comparison. It relies on your subjective opinion that abortion is tantamount to a home invasion robbery. An act that is necessarily harmful and destructive which serves no beneficial purpose. Many of us would disagree with that assessment. From my perspective it would be taking an act that can be safe and beneficial for any number of reasons and forcing an unsafe alternative. Nobody here is going to move you from that particular assessment, and that's fine, but you don't get to use it as a cornerstone in an analogy.
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Offline gmillerdrake

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Re: Abortion
« Reply #29 on: January 31, 2019, 11:24:35 AM »
are you willing to extend that sympathy to the dumb, terrified girl who squirts a kid out in the women's room at Arby's and drives off into the sunset?

Absolutely. I don't think anything in my posting history would say otherwise? It's tough To imagine what type of thought process and all that has happened in their life to convince them that leaving a newborn to die is the 'right' thing to do. In my mind that's a whole other conversation because that would start to point back to the state of our culture....it's just a broader conversation that 'she' was just scared and didn't know what to do or 'she' was a heartless evil wench and wanted to get rid of the baby so it wouldn't affect her life.
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Re: Abortion
« Reply #30 on: January 31, 2019, 11:34:06 AM »
are you willing to extend that sympathy to the dumb, terrified girl who squirts a kid out in the women's room at Arby's and drives off into the sunset?

Absolutely. I don't think anything in my posting history would say otherwise? It's tough To imagine what type of thought process and all that has happened in their life to convince them that leaving a newborn to die is the 'right' thing to do. In my mind that's a whole other conversation because that would start to point back to the state of our culture....it's just a broader conversation that 'she' was just scared and didn't know what to do or 'she' was a heartless evil wench and wanted to get rid of the baby so it wouldn't affect her life.
Fair enough. And I'm not sure of anything in your posting history, either. You've just expressed a very harsh opinion towards the punishment criminals, and she'd qualify, and not so much concern for the circumstances that led to their criminality. I was just curious as to your boundaries. There is no shortage of people who'd call for her summary execution. "What kind of inhuman monster could ever do such a thing!"
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Re: Abortion
« Reply #31 on: January 31, 2019, 11:35:24 AM »
I'll just add to conversation with a real-life scenario. My sister has had at least 3 and maybe 4 abortions. All as a result of being irresponsible sexually. She also has 3 living children all with different fathers whom only 1 is (barely) in the picture. There is no defense for her actions and she has essentially destroyed the family through her bad choices. Is she fucked up mentally for killing 3 of her other kids? Probably, but I've never seen a single ounce of proof showing she is remorseful for her choices. I agree with Gary that the vast majority of abortions are related to being a form of birth control.

I 100% agree that an abortion should be attainable if there is a risk to the mother's life.  That is her choice on whether or not she want to risk her life for the life of her child.  That being said I also 100% agree that soon as conception occurs there is a living human being. So use what ever word you want to defend the woman's right to have the choice, you are still killing the baby. Is it murder, based on the law of the land no. But, abortion is killing a baby. Period.

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Re: Abortion
« Reply #32 on: January 31, 2019, 11:46:57 AM »
Home invasion robberies are going to happen.  That being the case, we are better off as a society if home invasion robberies are performed legally, by highly trained experts who are more efficient at it.

I do get your point. But I will stand by my stance: legal abortions are safer than illegal ones. And that's what matter to me. Of course I am not thrilled about the idea of ending a life of a foetus (hardly anyone is), but if there is a valid reason for it, fine by me. But I agree that abortion is by no means a form of birth control, like gmillerdrake put it.
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Offline gmillerdrake

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Re: Abortion
« Reply #33 on: January 31, 2019, 11:47:38 AM »
You've just expressed a very harsh opinion towards the punishment criminals, and she'd qualify, and not so much concern for the circumstances that led to their criminality. I was just curious as to your boundaries. There is no shortage of people who'd call for her summary execution. "What kind of inhuman monster could ever do such a thing!"

True....especially when it comes to hurting kids I tend to let emotion get the best of me and suggest a quick and definite penalty. But....in the case of these kids/women abandoning newborns to die.....there's just seems to be something SO unnatural about that act that you have to wonder 'how and why'....like above it just being a 'normal' act of murder. Maybe some instances are just simple evil....but I don't think that's the prevalent reason. Maybe my judgement is off by saying I think there's just a natural instinct for women to want to nurture and love that kid having watched my wife for the past 12 years be a mother....I just wonder what would trump that instinct and lead one to abandon it and the child?   

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Re: Abortion
« Reply #34 on: January 31, 2019, 12:05:14 PM »
Quote
As people already posted it's silly and irresponsable to use abortion as a late anti pregnancy measure, but it is a right that should be granted for any variety of medical and psychological reasons (victims of rape getting pregnant for example), and yes, it's absolutely and totally necessary to regulate it.

No argument.  I think the subject here, though is in those vast grey areas that don't neatly fit into the categories you listed above.  I've told the story before; my daughter was "diagnosed" with Down's syndrome during pregnancy and we were "offered" the option of abortion.  It would clearly have been for "medical reasons" and would have absolutely been my wife's choice (meaning, all perfectly legal and reasonable).  That girl will be turning 18 on Saturday, in June will be graduating with honors from one of the top five high schools in the COUNTRY, and already has a free ride (via merit scholarships) to three of the four schools she's heard back from so far.  I don't say that to argue that the "medical reasons" aren't valid, or that my wife shouldn't have had the choice back then, but to say that this stuff is not as simple as words like "should" and "right" imply. 

If we're really as interested in the health and well-being of our mothers as we say, we need to be prepared for that discussion of "well, uh, we were wrong about that diagnosis of Down's".  Or, conversely, be prepared to accept that the abortion was done because of the "medical reason" that the dad turned out to be a cheating piece of shit that has no intention of supporting this kid.

This I find somewhat problematic. Unless we are talking about some condition that makes it rather certain the baby will not survive childbirth or might die soon after, should a doctor really offer a choice of abortion? Since people with for example Down's or cerebral palsy can after live a long, healthy and happy life. I find it dehumanizing and it also reminds me of the concept of "designer babies". You can correct me if you think I'm wrong, but I feel most parents will love their children the same even though they might be born with a medical condition.

And of course, happy birthday to your daughter.
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