Author Topic: The 2020 Election Thread  (Read 83964 times)

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Offline Stadler

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Re: The 2020 Election Thread
« Reply #3290 on: October 16, 2020, 10:21:24 AM »
Didn't watch the Trump one. Saw part of the end of Biden (I honestly had forgotten about it) but I liked what I saw.

When he started talking about being a president for everyone, not just the people who voted for him, but for everyone who didn't too, and wanting to bring people together and not be divisive, I was hoping Stads was watching.


I also liked when he was asked, if he loses what would it say about the American people? And his first response was that maybe a loss would mean that he was a lousy candidate.

I didn't watch.  I'm not as worried about Biden; he's made some moves that seem to contradict the "President for Everyone" pledge, but he's at least thrown a bone to the notion.   I'm most worried about almost every single other person that will be dragged in on his coattails.  For example, I don't get any sense of humility or pluralism in Kamala's responses.  She's still out to "gotcha" and "zing" her way to work each day.

This has Liz Warren as head of Treasury, and Susan Rice back in the mix.   No thanks.   This has Liz Warren and Stacey Abrams at Justice (even worse).

The only name mentioned that I trust to put nation ahead of party is Pete Buttigieg.   The rest are in my view a part of the reason we're where we are, not part of the solution.

Offline Stadler

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Re: The 2020 Election Thread
« Reply #3291 on: October 16, 2020, 10:58:52 AM »
I just learnt of how the journalist that hosted the debate confronted him about retwitting silly bullshit, reminding him that he's "the president and not someone's crazy uncle who can just retweet whatever", that was glorious  :lol

Because that's there job to Tweet how people should think.  :biggrin:


Posting this story here because it highlights aspects of our recent discussion. Opposition at all costs but with one person rising above and showing that humanity still matters. At this juncture, Feinstein's hug of Graham, with kind words, is what we need. And because of it, her peers want her OUT. I think this is what Stadler has been talking about. Break the mold. There is a price to pay though. Very few are willing to pay it. The Covid, maskless aspect of it is for another thread. Anyways, this gives me a grain of sand dose of hope.

https://nypost.com/2020/10/15/democrats-enraged-as-feinstein-graham-hug-romney-assures-barrett/

That's the thing though. When you, yourself, try to do something moral and show compassion for a fellow human, especially an enemy, your group will betray you and sometimes even sabotage you, if you stray from the pack or tribe. Some will follow you, and that's how different Tribes are formed.

Let's not lose the forest for the trees though; Democrats are ZERO different from Republicans in that they have seats to protect.  Let Diane Feinstein know that what she did was admirable and courageous.   Tweet out that Brian Fallon is a fear-mongering partisan divider with an agenda, and no interest in a civil, working democracy.  The next time you see something that is DIVISIVE, respond the same way you would if it was something RACIST.  We're all beside ourselves that Trump didn't disavow "Qnon", let's get offended when someone doesn't denounce party politics as usual.  Let's start to value tolerance of opposing political views* like we value tolerance of sexual orientation. 

It's just willpower and priorities, folks.  Nothing rocket science about it.  And, oddly, nothing POLITICAL about it.  This is just common human decency, in large part.

* We do not need to even include radical positions here; there are enough people in the range from Moderate Republican through Moderate Democrat to drive the plurality.  We can still take our principled stand over extremist positions - provided we're fair about what "extremist" really is - and still promote civility.

Offline Stadler

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Re: The 2020 Election Thread
« Reply #3292 on: October 16, 2020, 11:12:49 AM »
And I haven't even once used probably the biggest example of all of this:  COVID. 

There is an entire thread here - two of them, really - DEMANDING people do right for the common good by wearing masks and social distancing.   Some even go as far as "shaming and bullying" to get people to comply, because "people die".  Well, people are dying right now, in part, due to the divisiveness in this country.   Immigration.  Healthcare.  Foreign policy.   The "war" on drugs.   The "war" on poverty.   

If you're willing to tell someone you don't know and have never met before to "STFU and put a mask on", then you ought to find no reason not to say "STFU and stop with the party politics nonsense, and start being civil".   

Offline jingle.boy

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Re: The 2020 Election Thread
« Reply #3293 on: October 16, 2020, 11:33:21 AM »
If you're willing to tell someone you don't know and have never met before to "STFU and put a mask on", then you ought to find no reason not to say "STFU and stop with the party politics nonsense, and start being civil".

 :tup

It's just willpower and priorities, folks.  Nothing rocket science about it.  And, oddly, nothing POLITICAL about it.  This is just common human decency, in large part.

If you/I can become friends, and you/eric#s can reconcile, anything is possible!  :hug:
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Offline XeRocks81

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Re: The 2020 Election Thread
« Reply #3294 on: October 16, 2020, 11:38:29 AM »

* We do not need to even include radical positions here; there are enough people in the range from Moderate Republican through Moderate Democrat to drive the plurality.  We can still take our principled stand over extremist positions - provided we're fair about what "extremist" really is - and still promote civility.

how do you expect large populations of people to agree what extremist positions are?

Offline XeRocks81

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Re: The 2020 Election Thread
« Reply #3295 on: October 16, 2020, 11:42:07 AM »

If you're willing to tell someone you don't know and have never met before to "STFU and put a mask on", then you ought to find no reason not to say "STFU and stop with the party politics nonsense, and start being civil".

same thing, what you or I will define as party politics nonsense is worlds apart so expand that over a population of 325 million as you like to point out.

Offline lonestar

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Re: The 2020 Election Thread
« Reply #3296 on: October 16, 2020, 12:25:15 PM »
I wanted Feinstein out long before the hug, and have voted to that effect many times. Her and her hubby are as swampy as they get.

Offline Stadler

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Re: The 2020 Election Thread
« Reply #3297 on: October 16, 2020, 02:12:24 PM »
Xe, by talking like civil humans and not dealing with people that you disagree with as pariahs.  By not getting angry, offended, or put out if people don't accept - not tolerate, but accept - your point of view right out the gate.   I've very purposefully applied the identity politics agenda to this for a reason.   Increasingly, they are showing that many of the underlying beliefs and ideas that lead to "party affiliation" are less learned than inherit in us, so if you need rationalization, go with that.

At the very least, if one is genetically incapable of being civil to one with whom they disagree, at the very least make sure you understand the point of view fully before rejecting them as "deplorable".   We don't have to agree on ANYTHING at the end of the day; I just threw that in there lest anyone try to play the race card - "I'm not tolerating racists".  Okay, fine, don't agree but understand; just being tolerant of those non-racists that see the world in a different way, that prioritize the world in a different way, would be a huge start.   NO ONE other than Diane Feinstein and Lindsey Graham know the discussion that went into that hug, and yet millions are ready to cast her to the scrap heap as a result.  That runs afoul not only of a good portion of the Democratic Party Platform, but just basic human decency.

Offline TAC

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Re: The 2020 Election Thread
« Reply #3298 on: October 16, 2020, 02:27:33 PM »
The only name mentioned that I trust to put nation ahead of party is Pete Buttigieg.   

I agree and he was one of the main reasons I re-upped as a Dem so I could vote in the Primary. In fact I DID vote for him.


Let's just hope that taking one for the team the day before Super Tuesday was to solidify to remove Trump, and not to simply remove a sitting Republican.
would have thought the same thing but seeing the OP was TAC i immediately thought Maiden or DT related
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Offline Chino

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Re: The 2020 Election Thread
« Reply #3299 on: October 16, 2020, 06:44:43 PM »
I think Buttigieg is going to be around for a while. I hope so. I like the dude.

Offline lonestar

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Re: The 2020 Election Thread
« Reply #3300 on: October 18, 2020, 12:33:05 AM »
Barely a week after the kidnapping/murder plot of the governor is foiled, Donnie has his crowd at a Michigan rally chanting 'lock her up'. The guy is so fucking irresponsible, and he's gonna get someone killed with this shitbag divisive rhetoric, sooner rather than later too.

Governor Whitmer's response... "This is exactly the rhetoric that has put me, my family, and other government officials’ lives in danger while we try to save the lives of our fellow Americans. It needs to stop."

Offline Elite

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Re: The 2020 Election Thread
« Reply #3301 on: October 18, 2020, 02:39:32 AM »
The guy is a fucking disgrace for your country and he needs to be gone, sooner rather than later.
Hey dude slow the fuck down so we can finish together at the same time.  :biggrin:
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Offline MirrorMask

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Re: The 2020 Election Thread
« Reply #3302 on: October 18, 2020, 03:14:21 AM »
The guy is a fucking disgrace for your country and he needs to be gone, sooner rather than later.

TL;DR for the 95 pages of this thread.
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Offline Ben_Jamin

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Re: The 2020 Election Thread
« Reply #3303 on: October 18, 2020, 08:31:19 AM »
Barely a week after the kidnapping/murder plot of the governor is foiled, Donnie has his crowd at a Michigan rally chanting 'lock her up'. The guy is so fucking irresponsible, and he's gonna get someone killed with this shitbag divisive rhetoric, sooner rather than later too.

Governor Whitmer's response... "This is exactly the rhetoric that has put me, my family, and other government officials’ lives in danger while we try to save the lives of our fellow Americans. It needs to stop."

It's all related to this

https://www.bridgemi.com/michigan-government/third-michigans-covid-deaths-are-nursing-homes-who-blame

And

https://www.louderwithcrowder.com/amp/join-steven-crowder-at-the-michigan-state-capitol-2647782264?__twitter_impression=true
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Offline emtee

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Re: The 2020 Election Thread
« Reply #3304 on: October 18, 2020, 09:18:08 AM »
Not disagreeing about Trumps rhetoric but just for the sake of balance, Whitmer and her hubby pissed off a whole bunch of people on both sides of the isle just before Memorial Day. During her lockdown, where people with 2nd homes/vacation homes were prohibited to travel north to visit them, with loads of police on the interstates enforcing and turning people back home, her hubby called the marina where their boat was stored for winter and asked if the marina could get it unwrapped and put into the water. Oh yes, the Whitmer family planned on violating their own rules (of couse...laws and rules are for everyone else right?) and heading to their vacation home over the holiday. Typical politician leadership. She's as much of a tool as Trump.

https://www.detroitnews.com/story/news/politics/2020/05/25/purported-northern-michigan-boat-request-fuels-controversy-gretchen-whitmer/5254889002/
« Last Edit: October 18, 2020, 09:27:41 AM by emtee »

Offline XeRocks81

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Re: The 2020 Election Thread
« Reply #3305 on: October 18, 2020, 09:58:58 AM »
“as much of a tool as Trump” is overstating it imo, he plumbs new depths of awful every day.

Offline lonestar

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Re: The 2020 Election Thread
« Reply #3306 on: October 18, 2020, 10:16:37 AM »
Not disagreeing about Trumps rhetoric but just for the sake of balance, Whitmer and her hubby pissed off a whole bunch of people on both sides of the isle just before Memorial Day. During her lockdown, where people with 2nd homes/vacation homes were prohibited to travel north to visit them, with loads of police on the interstates enforcing and turning people back home, her hubby called the marina where their boat was stored for winter and asked if the marina could get it unwrapped and put into the water. Oh yes, the Whitmer family planned on violating their own rules (of couse...laws and rules are for everyone else right?) and heading to their vacation home over the holiday. Typical politician leadership. She's as much of a tool as Trump.

https://www.detroitnews.com/story/news/politics/2020/05/25/purported-northern-michigan-boat-request-fuels-controversy-gretchen-whitmer/5254889002/

There's shitty political shenanigans, and then there's fanning the flames after a kidnapping/murder plot. I mean Feinstein and her hubby Blum are about as close to political garbage and should see some level of persecution for what they did in the pre covid stock sale bullshit, but once we go into the realm of instigating violence against them, then we've already lost ourselves.

Offline Ben_Jamin

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Re: The 2020 Election Thread
« Reply #3307 on: October 18, 2020, 10:36:13 AM »
Not disagreeing about Trumps rhetoric but just for the sake of balance, Whitmer and her hubby pissed off a whole bunch of people on both sides of the isle just before Memorial Day. During her lockdown, where people with 2nd homes/vacation homes were prohibited to travel north to visit them, with loads of police on the interstates enforcing and turning people back home, her hubby called the marina where their boat was stored for winter and asked if the marina could get it unwrapped and put into the water. Oh yes, the Whitmer family planned on violating their own rules (of couse...laws and rules are for everyone else right?) and heading to their vacation home over the holiday. Typical politician leadership. She's as much of a tool as Trump.

https://www.detroitnews.com/story/news/politics/2020/05/25/purported-northern-michigan-boat-request-fuels-controversy-gretchen-whitmer/5254889002/

There's shitty political shenanigans, and then there's fanning the flames after a kidnapping/murder plot. I mean Feinstein and her hubby Blum are about as close to political garbage and should see some level of persecution for what they did in the pre covid stock sale bullshit, but once we go into the realm of instigating violence against them, then we've already lost ourselves.

People are just getting fed up with the politicians bullshit. It's escalated now where some are going to the extreme and targeting them. I'm not advocating for it, nor do I condone it. I just see the amount people can take being pushed by these politicians, playing with our lives, at the boiling point.

People's bullshit point has hit the limit. People are fed up, and aren't going to take it anymore. It explains a lot of reasons why tensions are high.

And why either way the election swings there's guaranteed commotion from the result. Which shows more about the state humanity is in.
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Offline jingle.boy

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Re: The 2020 Election Thread
« Reply #3308 on: October 18, 2020, 10:40:11 AM »
Not disagreeing about Trumps rhetoric but just for the sake of balance, Whitmer and her hubby pissed off a whole bunch of people on both sides of the isle just before Memorial Day. During her lockdown, where people with 2nd homes/vacation homes were prohibited to travel north to visit them, with loads of police on the interstates enforcing and turning people back home, her hubby called the marina where their boat was stored for winter and asked if the marina could get it unwrapped and put into the water. Oh yes, the Whitmer family planned on violating their own rules (of couse...laws and rules are for everyone else right?) and heading to their vacation home over the holiday. Typical politician leadership. She's as much of a tool as Trump.

https://www.detroitnews.com/story/news/politics/2020/05/25/purported-northern-michigan-boat-request-fuels-controversy-gretchen-whitmer/5254889002/

There's shitty political shenanigans, and then there's fanning the flames after a kidnapping/murder plot. I mean Feinstein and her hubby Blum are about as close to political garbage and should see some level of persecution for what they did in the pre covid stock sale bullshit, but once we go into the realm of instigating violence against them, then we've already lost ourselves.

People are just getting fed up with the politicians bullshit. It's escalated now where some are going to the extreme and targeting them. I'm not advocating for it, nor do I condone it. I just see the amount people can take being pushed by these politicians, playing with our lives, at the boiling point.

People's bullshit point has hit the limit. People are fed up, and aren't going to take it anymore. It explains a lot of reasons why tensions are high.

And why either way the election swings there's guaranteed commotion from the result. Which shows more about the state humanity is in.

Regardless... A) Kidnapping/murder is not even within the ball-park of acceptable response.  And B) POTUS encouraging it (action to be taken against other political colleagues) is reminiscent of the behaviour coming from tyrannical governments and authoritarians.

Politicians are the epitome of "do as I say, not as I do".  This is not new.
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Offline TAC

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Re: The 2020 Election Thread
« Reply #3309 on: October 18, 2020, 10:47:11 AM »
Correct Chad.

A plot against a sitting Governor and the POTUS acts like that.

Trump has to go and it can’t be soon enough.
« Last Edit: October 18, 2020, 02:15:02 PM by TAC »
would have thought the same thing but seeing the OP was TAC i immediately thought Maiden or DT related
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Offline lonestar

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Re: The 2020 Election Thread
« Reply #3310 on: October 18, 2020, 11:53:56 AM »
I'm very curious to see if he tries to spin this off, or if he just predictably double downs on it for the instant endorphin hit he gets off this shit. Also wondering how many fringe voters jump ship, he's got to be losing a few here and there with each fuck up. I mean I know the Trumpsters in my family are struggling to defend him at this point, and with a strong conservative majority in Scotus a guarantee, maybe they'll be more willing to with issues like abortion and LGBTQ rights off the table so to speak. There's really not much more anyone can do to effect change in that department from a hyper consrvative standing at this point, right?

Offline emtee

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Re: The 2020 Election Thread
« Reply #3311 on: October 19, 2020, 09:34:32 AM »
Whitmer strikes again. I don't see how this is coincidence. If she sent this...code, she is every bit as bad as Trump.

https://www.detroitnews.com/story/news/local/michigan/2020/10/18/whitmer-asks-trump-cool-it-says-hes-inciting-domestic-terrorism/3702262001/


8645. 86ing #45.

Offline Adami

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Re: The 2020 Election Thread
« Reply #3312 on: October 19, 2020, 09:48:08 AM »
As far as I can tell, 8645 just means you want Trump to be voted out in the next election.


How is that a bad thing?
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Offline El Barto

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Re: The 2020 Election Thread
« Reply #3313 on: October 19, 2020, 09:51:49 AM »
Yeah, I don't get it. Eighty-six means to bar, or to throw out. I suppose it could be used to refer to killing somebody, like if you're a mobster and you're looking for a euphemism, but really any term could be. Eighty-six is pretty well defined. What a fucking snowflake.
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Offline Stadler

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Re: The 2020 Election Thread
« Reply #3314 on: October 19, 2020, 09:58:21 AM »
“as much of a tool as Trump” is overstating it imo, he plumbs new depths of awful every day.

Just depends on what you prioritize as "awful". 

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Re: The 2020 Election Thread
« Reply #3315 on: October 19, 2020, 10:10:20 AM »
Yeah, I don't get it. Eighty-six means to bar, or to throw out. I suppose it could be used to refer to killing somebody, like if you're a mobster and you're looking for a euphemism, but really any term could be. Eighty-six is pretty well defined. What a fucking snowflake.

It's my understanding that it is most commonly used in the food service industry as "out of" something, but as I've only worked in the food service industry for about a week (I got hired as a bartender at a strip club out of college, before getting my first real job) I'm most aware of it as a common phrase here in the Northeast to also mean "to kill someone".  One theory has it that a grave would be dug 8 feet by 6 feet to accommodate a casket (wider to allow for the casket to be put in the hole).

Whether it rises to the level of Trump's nonsense is debatable at best, but as I noted in a conversation I had this morning with a colleague, why does it have to be so close as to engender the debate?  There are thousands of ways to signal discontent with Trump, why pick the one that MIGHT send the dog whistle that he's less than a human being not worthy of living?   

Or, if you're of the mindset that it's a sad coincidence, why have two standards?   Every "ok" sign or "moon with sunglasses" is now a "dog whistle for deep, violent racism, but somehow Democrats are immune from that?  My kid services helicopters for the U.S. Government, and I can't help thinking that there's someone somewhere that might deal him dirt because that TOO is now a sign for "white supremacy".   If intent doesn't matter, then intent doesn't matter, regardless.

Offline jingle.boy

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Re: The 2020 Election Thread
« Reply #3316 on: October 19, 2020, 10:28:42 AM »
Quote
"Whitmer is encouraging assassination attempts against President Trump just weeks after someone sent a Ricin-laced package to the White House," his campaign said on Twitter.

Why not just say "I'm rubber; you're glue.  Anything you say just bounces off me on to you."

It's my understanding that it is most commonly used in the food service industry as "out of" something, but as I've only worked in the food service industry for about a week (I got hired as a bartender at a strip club out of college, before getting my first real job) I'm most aware of it as a common phrase here in the Northeast to also mean "to kill someone".  One theory has it that a grave would be dug 8 feet by 6 feet to accommodate a casket (wider to allow for the casket to be put in the hole).

While that may be the origin of the phrase, I've heard it used largely in terms of 'kil'... as in the end/cancel/stop something.  Anything.  Origins of phrases aren't always meant to be limiting in their use - I mean, when someone is said to be 'shell-shocked', it's not because they were on the ground in the region of an air-raid.

This is beyond a stretch to turn this tchotchke into "encouraging assassination attempts"
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Re: The 2020 Election Thread
« Reply #3317 on: October 19, 2020, 10:40:43 AM »
Gotta say that 86 being a euphamism for a hit/assassination is entirely new to me. I've only ever heard it used in the food service industry context of getting rid of something.
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Offline Jaffa

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Re: The 2020 Election Thread
« Reply #3318 on: October 19, 2020, 11:29:24 AM »
Whether it rises to the level of Trump's nonsense is debatable at best, but as I noted in a conversation I had this morning with a colleague, why does it have to be so close as to engender the debate?  There are thousands of ways to signal discontent with Trump, why pick the one that MIGHT send the dog whistle that he's less than a human being not worthy of living?   

I would think the reason they went with '86' is that it is numerical, and therefore makes a nice simple slogan in combination with '45.' 

I also want to note that I really don't think 86 is used as a euphemism for murder as often as you might think.  A quick Google search tells me the Oxford English Dictionary defines eighty-six as 1. ejecting or barring someone from a restaurant or 2. rejecting, discarding, or canceling.  The Wikipedia article for the term focuses on these definitions as well.  Wikipedia does mention 'killing' exactly once - in a note about this specific incident between Whitmer and Trump - but up until that political note, it makes no reference to this usage.  Snopes has an article about the origin of the term, and it does mention killing, but only as a tertiary meaning: "the verbal shortform of ’86’ to mean ‘to dismiss or quash,’ ‘to bar entry or further service to,’ and even ‘to kill.’"  Even on urbandictionary.com, the top definition is "To remove, end usage, or take something out or away".  You have to go down to the tertiary definition of the third listing to get any mention of killing, and even then, it is noted to be a joking context: "3. To get rid of (usually in reference to a person, often a coworker...sometimes viewed jokingly as a euphimism for killing them)"

It also seems appropriate to note that '45' specifically refers to Trump's role as President, not his role as a human.  And given that we're a couple weeks away from Election Day, 'put an end to the 45th Presidency' seems like a pretty natural interpretation that is very much in line with the recognized definitions of the term.  Especially when you notice that some of the '8645' merchandise being sold extends the message to '864511320', to add the actual date of Election Day. 

This feels like a pretty transparent attempt by the Trump administration to deflect negative attention.  And it feels, at least to me, like an enormous reach.
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Offline Ben_Jamin

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Re: The 2020 Election Thread
« Reply #3319 on: October 19, 2020, 11:52:39 AM »
All this over a sticker....

She intentionally placed that sticker there obviously. All it did was stir the pot.
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Offline Stadler

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Re: The 2020 Election Thread
« Reply #3320 on: October 19, 2020, 12:08:26 PM »
Quote
"Whitmer is encouraging assassination attempts against President Trump just weeks after someone sent a Ricin-laced package to the White House," his campaign said on Twitter.

Why not just say "I'm rubber; you're glue.  Anything you say just bounces off me on to you."

It's my understanding that it is most commonly used in the food service industry as "out of" something, but as I've only worked in the food service industry for about a week (I got hired as a bartender at a strip club out of college, before getting my first real job) I'm most aware of it as a common phrase here in the Northeast to also mean "to kill someone".  One theory has it that a grave would be dug 8 feet by 6 feet to accommodate a casket (wider to allow for the casket to be put in the hole).

While that may be the origin of the phrase, I've heard it used largely in terms of 'kil'... as in the end/cancel/stop something.  Anything.  Origins of phrases aren't always meant to be limiting in their use - I mean, when someone is said to be 'shell-shocked', it's not because they were on the ground in the region of an air-raid.

This is beyond a stretch to turn this tchotchke into "encouraging assassination attempts"

I don't disagree with the first paragraph; I'm with you. But with respect to the second, I'm looking at this from a more existential point of view though.  It's not at all a stretch.  That was why the reference to the racist "dog whistles".   I've never ever heard of the "circle" being anything but a circle, but there you go.  Throw one up and social media pounds you for being a racist.  It IS a double standard, and it IS a matter of perception, and I guess it'd be more reassuring for me if more people recognized that.  Why is it so outlandish that when the foot is on the other shoe, that it's an issue? 

You'd think someone somewhere would get the memo that this is fucking ridiculous.  Maybe the concept of having a "cool quippy viral hashtag emoji whatever the hell" isn't worth it. 

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Re: The 2020 Election Thread
« Reply #3321 on: October 19, 2020, 12:19:11 PM »
Whether it rises to the level of Trump's nonsense is debatable at best, but as I noted in a conversation I had this morning with a colleague, why does it have to be so close as to engender the debate?  There are thousands of ways to signal discontent with Trump, why pick the one that MIGHT send the dog whistle that he's less than a human being not worthy of living?   

I would think the reason they went with '86' is that it is numerical, and therefore makes a nice simple slogan in combination with '45.' 

I also want to note that I really don't think 86 is used as a euphemism for murder as often as you might think.  A quick Google search tells me the Oxford English Dictionary defines eighty-six as 1. ejecting or barring someone from a restaurant or 2. rejecting, discarding, or canceling.  The Wikipedia article for the term focuses on these definitions as well.  Wikipedia does mention 'killing' exactly once - in a note about this specific incident between Whitmer and Trump - but up until that political note, it makes no reference to this usage.  Snopes has an article about the origin of the term, and it does mention killing, but only as a tertiary meaning: "the verbal shortform of ’86’ to mean ‘to dismiss or quash,’ ‘to bar entry or further service to,’ and even ‘to kill.’"  Even on urbandictionary.com, the top definition is "To remove, end usage, or take something out or away".  You have to go down to the tertiary definition of the third listing to get any mention of killing, and even then, it is noted to be a joking context: "3. To get rid of (usually in reference to a person, often a coworker...sometimes viewed jokingly as a euphimism for killing them)"

It also seems appropriate to note that '45' specifically refers to Trump's role as President, not his role as a human.  And given that we're a couple weeks away from Election Day, 'put an end to the 45th Presidency' seems like a pretty natural interpretation that is very much in line with the recognized definitions of the term.  Especially when you notice that some of the '8645' merchandise being sold extends the message to '864511320', to add the actual date of Election Day. 

This feels like a pretty transparent attempt by the Trump administration to deflect negative attention.  And it feels, at least to me, like an enormous reach.

You're 100% reasonable and logical in your analysis.   Maybe 1000%.   

BUT, you still made my point perfectly: THE INTENT DOESN'T MATTER.  Or at least it doesn't seem to matter when the arrows are flinging in the other direction.  So why is it so shocking and offensive that all of a sudden no one's listening to the intent discussion?

I'd be fine if there was a realization that we need different thinking - Okay, this is the way it's always been, but we realize this is wrong and Don you and your gang have to be the bigger man and put this behind us (kind of what I've been arguing for Biden over the past three pages) - but that's not what's happened.  This isn't exclusive to Trump or his organization. He's not doing anything that hasn't been done by others 1000 times.  And he's wrong to do so, no doubt, but is the vitriol against him a spark for all of us to do better, or just another way to pound on Trump and show how bad he is?  I get the sense it's the latter. 

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Re: The 2020 Election Thread
« Reply #3322 on: October 19, 2020, 12:32:53 PM »
The response to 8645 is a clear attempt at making a big issue out of what should be an inconsequential one.  Riling up a crowd with chants of "lock her up", is not a small issue - it's painting her to be the aggressor/criminal, when she was the victim of a violent/criminal plot.

I fail to comprehend how an 8645 tchotchke on her desk is on par with that.
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Offline Jaffa

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Re: The 2020 Election Thread
« Reply #3323 on: October 19, 2020, 12:47:01 PM »
Stadler, I'm not sure how to address your point without having a specific example to refer to.  Can you provide one?  If you can give me a specific case where you believe that Donald Trump did something totally innocuous and the other side painted it as sinister, I would love to examine it for comparison and contrast. 

I am interested in having the intent conversation.  And since you kindly described my analysis of this case as reasonable and logical, I would love to apply that same analysis to a counterexample.  Do you have one in mind? 
Sincerely,
Jaffa

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Re: The 2020 Election Thread
« Reply #3324 on: October 19, 2020, 12:54:57 PM »
Stads as far as the idea of it being a double standard, Trump doesn't get the benefit of the doubt because of his history of words and actions. You could take any one "dog whistle" incident of alleged racism towards black people and look at it in a vacuum and reasonably say "OK, maybe there's nothing wrong here besides a misunderstanding". But if I then say OK, now consider that this person was prosecuted by the DOJ for discriminatory practices as a housing landlord, he used to tell others how he didn't want black people counting his money when he was a casino owner, go over his whole history with the Central Park 5 (even after they were exonerated by DNA evidence), and briefly touch on the laundry list of other questionable incidents littering his history, then maybe presuming he didn't mean anything by it becomes less reasonable.
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