Author Topic: The 2020 Election Thread  (Read 144394 times)

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Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: The 2020 Election Thread
« Reply #5390 on: November 19, 2020, 12:55:14 PM »
Of course there's a difference. Persuading somebody to vote is one thing. If it's done by outside interests it's a problem. If it's done by internal interests then it's democracy. That's not what's going on now, though. The mechanical version being harped on right now has no basis in the minds of people. According to Trump (well, since he's refusing to describing his delusions to us, I have to assume) votes were switched from R to D. And they were done so with the complicity of the state and local governments. We can still have confidence in the system even though we know that 1000 Russians in a warehouse somewhere are spreading disinformation. We absolutely cannot have confidence in a system if we're convinced that the government is determining the outcome with disregard to the actual votes. After all, if Trump's bullshit was true, wouldn't it be time to rise up and storm the gates?

Quote
Quote
Meddling in 2016, no rigging in 2016, and a Republican winning.
Meddling in 2020, no rigging in 2020, and a Democrat winning.
But the democrats weren't insisting that it was rigged, with zero evidence to support their claim. The republicans are, and they're not complaining about undue influence. You have to recognize that one side was correct in both assessments, and one side is completely wrong on the same two assessments.

I read your post three times - both sections - and it took me a moment to figure out why it was so unsettling to me:  you're painting with a narrow enough brush to make the point, but a broad enough brush to brook argument, and that makes it hard if not impossible to reply without seeming to just be argumentative.
He's painting with an accurate brush.  I'm not sure why that's so hard to admit.
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Offline El Barto

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Re: The 2020 Election Thread
« Reply #5391 on: November 19, 2020, 12:56:25 PM »
Of course there's a difference. Persuading somebody to vote is one thing. If it's done by outside interests it's a problem. If it's done by internal interests then it's democracy. That's not what's going on now, though. The mechanical version being harped on right now has no basis in the minds of people. According to Trump (well, since he's refusing to describing his delusions to us, I have to assume) votes were switched from R to D. And they were done so with the complicity of the state and local governments. We can still have confidence in the system even though we know that 1000 Russians in a warehouse somewhere are spreading disinformation. We absolutely cannot have confidence in a system if we're convinced that the government is determining the outcome with disregard to the actual votes. After all, if Trump's bullshit was true, wouldn't it be time to rise up and storm the gates?

Quote
Quote
Meddling in 2016, no rigging in 2016, and a Republican winning.
Meddling in 2020, no rigging in 2020, and a Democrat winning.
But the democrats weren't insisting that it was rigged, with zero evidence to support their claim. The republicans are, and they're not complaining about undue influence. You have to recognize that one side was correct in both assessments, and one side is completely wrong on the same two assessments.

I read your post three times - both sections - and it took me a moment to figure out why it was so unsettling to me:  you're painting with a narrow enough brush to make the point, but a broad enough brush to brook argument, and that makes it hard if not impossible to reply without seeming to just be argumentative.
I don't quite follow, but if my post was disingenuous I apologize. Not really devoting a whole lot of bandwidth to all of this.
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Offline ariich

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Re: The 2020 Election Thread
« Reply #5392 on: November 19, 2020, 01:03:44 PM »
It's a pretty established tactic that Russia tries to influence elections in western democracies through social media, disinformation, etc. I don't think it's even in question that this applies to recent US elections is it?

But influencing and even manipulating people on how to vote is a completely different thing to fraud/stealing votes. I'm not sure what the issue is with making that distinction.

Offline Ben_Jamin

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Re: The 2020 Election Thread
« Reply #5393 on: November 19, 2020, 01:39:52 PM »
It's a pretty established tactic that Russia tries to influence elections in western democracies through social media, disinformation, etc. I don't think it's even in question that this applies to recent US elections is it?

But influencing and even manipulating people on how to vote is a completely different thing to fraud/stealing votes. I'm not sure what the issue is with making that distinction.


But this definition of Fraud is pretty close to Manipulation...

Quote
specifically : intentional perversion of truth in order to induce another to part with something of value or to surrender a legal right

So voter fraud is, Someone corrupting the truth in order to manipulate my vote? Am I understanding it correctly?

Isn't that Manipulation of votes.

at what point does the Influence become Manipulation?
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Offline Adami

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Re: The 2020 Election Thread
« Reply #5394 on: November 19, 2020, 01:47:27 PM »
So voter fraud is, Someone corrupting the truth in order to manipulate my vote? Am I understanding it correctly?


No.
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Offline Ben_Jamin

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Re: The 2020 Election Thread
« Reply #5395 on: November 19, 2020, 02:01:05 PM »
So voter fraud is, Someone corrupting the truth in order to manipulate my vote? Am I understanding it correctly?


No.


Edit: I looked at found that there are two different types of Frauds....Voter Fraud and Election Fraud. So, there is a big difference between the two. Are we talking about Voter Fraud, Election Fraud, or both?

It doesn't look like Voter Fraud is going on at all. Election Fraud on the other hand, is something for the courts to determine, as they have more factual evidence than we do. And we all know how the media can manipulate.



The only reason Trump isn't conceding seems to be to let the system play out. Conceding became "Tradition" (there's that word) only after 1896 " as a simple courtesy, with a telegram that William Jennings Bryan sent to his opponent, William McKinley, two days after the election of 1896." And Legally he doesn't have to.

What is happening is People are getting upset that Trump doesn't want to be Moral enough to concede, and he doesn't have to if he wants to. That's the thing, he doesn't have to, and is not bound by the law to do so.
« Last Edit: November 19, 2020, 02:17:23 PM by Ben_Jamin »
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Offline Stadler

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Re: The 2020 Election Thread
« Reply #5396 on: November 19, 2020, 02:21:46 PM »
Of course there's a difference. Persuading somebody to vote is one thing. If it's done by outside interests it's a problem. If it's done by internal interests then it's democracy. That's not what's going on now, though. The mechanical version being harped on right now has no basis in the minds of people. According to Trump (well, since he's refusing to describing his delusions to us, I have to assume) votes were switched from R to D. And they were done so with the complicity of the state and local governments. We can still have confidence in the system even though we know that 1000 Russians in a warehouse somewhere are spreading disinformation. We absolutely cannot have confidence in a system if we're convinced that the government is determining the outcome with disregard to the actual votes. After all, if Trump's bullshit was true, wouldn't it be time to rise up and storm the gates?

Quote
Quote
Meddling in 2016, no rigging in 2016, and a Republican winning.
Meddling in 2020, no rigging in 2020, and a Democrat winning.
But the democrats weren't insisting that it was rigged, with zero evidence to support their claim. The republicans are, and they're not complaining about undue influence. You have to recognize that one side was correct in both assessments, and one side is completely wrong on the same two assessments.

I read your post three times - both sections - and it took me a moment to figure out why it was so unsettling to me:  you're painting with a narrow enough brush to make the point, but a broad enough brush to brook argument, and that makes it hard if not impossible to reply without seeming to just be argumentative.
I don't quite follow, but if my post was disingenuous I apologize. Not really devoting a whole lot of bandwidth to all of this.

No need to apologize and I wasn't suggesting that; it was actually my apology in advance so I didn't just sound like I was picking nits to pick nits.  We can drop it if you like.

Offline Stadler

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Re: The 2020 Election Thread
« Reply #5397 on: November 19, 2020, 02:23:41 PM »
Of course there's a difference. Persuading somebody to vote is one thing. If it's done by outside interests it's a problem. If it's done by internal interests then it's democracy. That's not what's going on now, though. The mechanical version being harped on right now has no basis in the minds of people. According to Trump (well, since he's refusing to describing his delusions to us, I have to assume) votes were switched from R to D. And they were done so with the complicity of the state and local governments. We can still have confidence in the system even though we know that 1000 Russians in a warehouse somewhere are spreading disinformation. We absolutely cannot have confidence in a system if we're convinced that the government is determining the outcome with disregard to the actual votes. After all, if Trump's bullshit was true, wouldn't it be time to rise up and storm the gates?

Quote
Quote
Meddling in 2016, no rigging in 2016, and a Republican winning.
Meddling in 2020, no rigging in 2020, and a Democrat winning.
But the democrats weren't insisting that it was rigged, with zero evidence to support their claim. The republicans are, and they're not complaining about undue influence. You have to recognize that one side was correct in both assessments, and one side is completely wrong on the same two assessments.

I read your post three times - both sections - and it took me a moment to figure out why it was so unsettling to me:  you're painting with a narrow enough brush to make the point, but a broad enough brush to brook argument, and that makes it hard if not impossible to reply without seeming to just be argumentative.
He's painting with an accurate brush.  I'm not sure why that's so hard to admit.

I'd admit it if I agreed with it.  I took great pains to say Bart wasn't wrong, but it was incomplete. 

Offline Stadler

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Re: The 2020 Election Thread
« Reply #5398 on: November 19, 2020, 02:32:33 PM »
It's a pretty established tactic that Russia tries to influence elections in western democracies through social media, disinformation, etc. I don't think it's even in question that this applies to recent US elections is it?

But influencing and even manipulating people on how to vote is a completely different thing to fraud/stealing votes. I'm not sure what the issue is with making that distinction.

They've been doing it here for over 60 years.  It's nothing new.   And I'm not sure how you stop it, frankly (I'm not talking about the hacking, I'm talking about the propaganda).   

As for the distinction, I have no problem with the distinction, except when it serves as a tautology.   They ARE different, at least in kind.  But if you're worried about democracy - about the "of the people, by the people, for the people", that distinction might be one without a difference.   It just seems that time and time again the lines are drawn and the distinctions made based on "Republicans bad, Democrats good", and it's frustrating as well as illogical (and I'm not alluding to any one poster here; I'm speaking generally).   

Offline Jaffa

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Re: The 2020 Election Thread
« Reply #5399 on: November 19, 2020, 02:49:45 PM »
As for the distinction, I have no problem with the distinction, except when it serves as a tautology.   They ARE different, at least in kind.  But if you're worried about democracy - about the "of the people, by the people, for the people", that distinction might be one without a difference.   

You kind of lose me here.  If you don't mind, I'd like to take a moment to try to explain why I think the distinction is material.  I'm hoping you can clarify why it wouldn't be. 

As far as I know, there really aren't any laws governing which criteria people are allowed to use when making a decision about who to vote for.  Voters will make that decision based on any number of factors, including specific issues, general party preferences, character assessments, and the influence of their family and friends (and, as the case may be, foreign operatives).  Regardless of the criteria, we count all the votes, because they all fall under the umbrella of the right to vote.  If Russian disinformation propaganda influences a significant number of voters, that is alarming and problematic, but we still count the votes.  If I work for an extremely liberally biased company and their views influence my vote, you still count my vote. 

On the other hand, if I vote for the Republican and someone just decided to count it as a vote for the Democrat, they are directly subverting my vote and, by extension, my right to vote.  My vote is not counted.

In one case, my voice is heard.  In the other, it is silenced.  This, to me, constitutes a material difference that is very relevant to the question of Democracy.  It's the difference between misleading the perception of the people and subverting the will of the people. 
Sincerely,
Jaffa

Offline ariich

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Re: The 2020 Election Thread
« Reply #5400 on: November 19, 2020, 02:53:02 PM »
As for the distinction, I have no problem with the distinction, except when it serves as a tautology.   They ARE different, at least in kind.  But if you're worried about democracy - about the "of the people, by the people, for the people", that distinction might be one without a difference.   

You kind of lose me here.  If you don't mind, I'd like to take a moment to try to explain why I think the distinction is material.  I'm hoping you can clarify why it wouldn't be. 

As far as I know, there really aren't any laws governing which criteria people are allowed to use when making a decision about who to vote for.  Voters will make that decision based on any number of factors, including specific issues, general party preferences, character assessments, and the influence of their family and friends (and, as the case may be, foreign operatives).  Regardless of the criteria, we count all the votes, because they all fall under the umbrella of the right to vote.  If Russian disinformation propaganda influences a significant number of voters, that is alarming and problematic, but we still count the votes.  If I work for an extremely liberally biased company and their views influence my vote, you still count my vote. 

On the other hand, if I vote for the Republican and someone just decided to count it as a vote for the Democrat, they are directly subverting my vote and, by extension, my right to vote.  My vote is not counted.

In one case, my voice is heard.  In the other, it is silenced.  This, to me, constitutes a material difference that is very relevant to the question of Democracy.  It's the difference between misleading the perception of the people and subverting the will of the people. 
If Stadler is arguing that both are bad and neither is much worse than the other, then I'm sort of on board with that. Misinformation, lies etc may not have as direct an impact but they're also much harder to protect against. 

Offline Jaffa

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Re: The 2020 Election Thread
« Reply #5401 on: November 19, 2020, 03:01:26 PM »
If Stadler is arguing that both are bad and neither is much worse than the other, then I'm sort of on board with that. Misinformation, lies etc may not have as direct an impact but they're also much harder to protect against.

Fair.  I'm not sure I totally agree, but it's not a hill I would fight on.  For my part, I wasn't trying to examine whether the actions were 'bad' , I was trying to examine whether they constitute fraud, and whether they represent of subversion of the democratic process.  If the main point was that both are problematic, I have no dispute.

EDIT: To put it another way, a democracy where everyone is horribly wrong and misinformed is still a democracy.  By contrast, a system where people vote and their votes are not counted is fundamentally not a democracy, but instead an illusion of one. 
« Last Edit: November 19, 2020, 03:07:06 PM by Jaffa »
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Offline emtee

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Re: The 2020 Election Thread
« Reply #5402 on: November 19, 2020, 03:19:09 PM »
For crying out loud,  Trump, will you please do us all a favor and give up. You lost!

Dude is inviting the 2 Reps from MI  (Detroit) to the White House. It's OVER!

Offline Ben_Jamin

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Re: The 2020 Election Thread
« Reply #5403 on: November 19, 2020, 03:21:07 PM »
If Stadler is arguing that both are bad and neither is much worse than the other, then I'm sort of on board with that. Misinformation, lies etc may not have as direct an impact but they're also much harder to protect against.

Fair.  I'm not sure I totally agree, but it's not a hill I would fight on.  For my part, I wasn't trying to examine whether the actions were 'bad', I was trying to examine whether they constitute fraud, and whether they represent of subversion of the democratic process.

EDIT: To put it another way, a democracy where everyone is horribly wrong and misinformed is still a democracy.  By contrast, a system where people vote and their votes are not counted is fundamentally not a democracy, but instead an illusion of one.

That's how I thought Democracy works.

 
It's a pretty established tactic that Russia tries to influence elections in western democracies through social media, disinformation, etc. I don't think it's even in question that this applies to recent US elections is it?

But influencing and even manipulating people on how to vote is a completely different thing to fraud/stealing votes. I'm not sure what the issue is with making that distinction.

They've been doing it here for over 60 years.  It's nothing new.   And I'm not sure how you stop it, frankly (I'm not talking about the hacking, I'm talking about the propaganda).   


The only way I can see kind of helping to stop that Propaganda is trying to get people to not be influenced, or manipulated, into it. A way I would suggest is getting people to look at all things and come to a conclusion on their own, after doing their own research and in turn convince themselves, and making sure, that is what you want to truly believe and feel is the right choice, in this case the candidate for president.

Also, NO ONE should feel bad for voting for whomever they choose to vote for. And if you don't want to vote because you feel none of the candidates are to your liking, you have the right to choose not to vote. It's still a vote, in you are choosing to express your reason for not voting, in silence. It begs to ask the question, why aren't those people voting? What can be done to have them vote and consider the importance of a vote? They shouldn't be shunned either because they chose to voice their vote by not voting.


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Offline Ben_Jamin

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Re: The 2020 Election Thread
« Reply #5404 on: November 19, 2020, 03:34:48 PM »
For crying out loud,  Trump, will you please do us all a favor and give up. You lost!

Dude is inviting the 2 Reps from MI  (Detroit) to the White House. It's OVER!

It looks like, to me, he isn't because he is letting the system play out. We haven't had that happen since 1896 as every candidate/sitting president that has lost the general election had conceded. And therefore didn't have the need to truly make sure those votes were factual, and faithfully true. As they didn't bother appealing those results.

Trump did, and now, we are going through a legal checking of the process of the election, making sure every vote was truly, legally cast. They may find some things that were missed before.

If we are certain some form of fraud has occurred locally, this is what is being investigated. That's the system playing out. You won't have that if Trump were to concede, and this is what is actually needed for trust in the system. Let the system play out itself, to get an understanding of what is wrong with the system.

I am only saying this because Trump doesn't have to concede, and everyone is all butthurt because he isn't, but he doesn't have to, and is not legally bound to do so. So I am just at people like... :corn
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Re: The 2020 Election Thread
« Reply #5405 on: November 19, 2020, 03:41:30 PM »
What you've said is largely correct; but there are crucial details missing.  Trump - or his team - HAS said what SOME of the problems are - there are a couple - he's just not given evidence for all or even most of them.

When your "team" is quoting My Cousin Vinnie to get his point across, I think the argument has lost whatever merits it may have once had.

And for the record, I get the PA Sec of State issue.  That's a valid beef.  If one is allowed to arbitrarily and singularly move the date by which votes are accepted (albeit for a seemingly just cause/reason), that's a problem.  And as you (Bill) state, what's to stop someone from bringing a date for other nefarious reasons in the future.  You've won me over on that topic and legal challenge.  My issue is that Trump isn't doing it with the intent of holding the integrity election process - anyone who claims it is can buy some land I have for a great price in Florida (really, I do).  There aren't enough of these segregated votes to change the outcome.  If it were only about the integrity of the election, Trump could still acknowledge defeat while pursuing that case.

Right now, nothing Trump is doing is for the good of the nation / defending the Constitution - as he took an oath (like the good Christian he is  ::)) to do.
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Offline Stadler

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Re: The 2020 Election Thread
« Reply #5406 on: November 19, 2020, 06:06:28 PM »
As for the distinction, I have no problem with the distinction, except when it serves as a tautology.   They ARE different, at least in kind.  But if you're worried about democracy - about the "of the people, by the people, for the people", that distinction might be one without a difference.   

You kind of lose me here.  If you don't mind, I'd like to take a moment to try to explain why I think the distinction is material.  I'm hoping you can clarify why it wouldn't be. 

As far as I know, there really aren't any laws governing which criteria people are allowed to use when making a decision about who to vote for.  Voters will make that decision based on any number of factors, including specific issues, general party preferences, character assessments, and the influence of their family and friends (and, as the case may be, foreign operatives).  Regardless of the criteria, we count all the votes, because they all fall under the umbrella of the right to vote.  If Russian disinformation propaganda influences a significant number of voters, that is alarming and problematic, but we still count the votes.  If I work for an extremely liberally biased company and their views influence my vote, you still count my vote. 

On the other hand, if I vote for the Republican and someone just decided to count it as a vote for the Democrat, they are directly subverting my vote and, by extension, my right to vote.  My vote is not counted.

In one case, my voice is heard.  In the other, it is silenced.  This, to me, constitutes a material difference that is very relevant to the question of Democracy.  It's the difference between misleading the perception of the people and subverting the will of the people.

I wouldn't argue with that.  Not a bit.  Bart made a distinction though, between misleading perception from WITHIN and from WITHOUT.  I'm not sure I see the difference IN A DEMOCRACY - our freedoms are inalienable; it's a philosophical question whether those fundamental rights stop at our borders - but I honored his distinction. 

And there's the little problem that we've made that disinformation an issue over the last four years.  There are many - and I can't say I argue with them, other than the logistic and philosophical problems I've noted here - that feel that it's "bad" if Russian floods our social media with propaganda favoring one candidate over another.  The "why" is crucial - we have some information that their favoritism for Trump was to sow the exact discord that we're reaping as we speak; that's bad - but in theory there's nothing de facto bad about another country having a preference.  After all, don't you think the EU had a preference between Joe Biden and Don Trump?   Various countries can have aligning objectives. 

Offline Jaffa

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Re: The 2020 Election Thread
« Reply #5407 on: November 19, 2020, 06:18:33 PM »
I wouldn't argue with that.  Not a bit.  Bart made a distinction though, between misleading perception from WITHIN and from WITHOUT.  I'm not sure I see the difference IN A DEMOCRACY - our freedoms are inalienable; it's a philosophical question whether those fundamental rights stop at our borders - but I honored his distinction. 

Oh, I see.  I think I got my threads mixed up and got confused about which distinction you were addressing.  My apologies for the confusion! 
Sincerely,
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Offline Stadler

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Re: The 2020 Election Thread
« Reply #5408 on: November 19, 2020, 06:19:57 PM »
If Stadler is arguing that both are bad and neither is much worse than the other, then I'm sort of on board with that. Misinformation, lies etc may not have as direct an impact but they're also much harder to protect against.

Fair.  I'm not sure I totally agree, but it's not a hill I would fight on.  For my part, I wasn't trying to examine whether the actions were 'bad' , I was trying to examine whether they constitute fraud, and whether they represent of subversion of the democratic process.  If the main point was that both are problematic, I have no dispute.

EDIT: To put it another way, a democracy where everyone is horribly wrong and misinformed is still a democracy.  By contrast, a system where people vote and their votes are not counted is fundamentally not a democracy, but instead an illusion of one.

But again, we've seemed to distinguish between being horribly wrong and misinformed "organically" and being so because of foreign influence.    I'm not sure I've landed on a position on this yet, but my gut says there's no difference.  That may be my bias seeing through, since I see some of the agenda of the farther left to be just as misinformed in it's own way, but misinformation leads to bad decisions regardless of where it comes from.

Offline Adami

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Re: The 2020 Election Thread
« Reply #5409 on: November 19, 2020, 06:28:30 PM »
Looks like George recount confirmed a Biden win. AP has finally called it for Biden.
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Offline Stadler

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Re: The 2020 Election Thread
« Reply #5410 on: November 19, 2020, 06:30:41 PM »
For crying out loud,  Trump, will you please do us all a favor and give up. You lost!

Dude is inviting the 2 Reps from MI  (Detroit) to the White House. It's OVER!

Three Republican representatives have been trying to introduce legislation to impeach Whitmer; thankfully the remainder of the Republican caucus in that state has rejected that out of hand.  She's definitely pushing the boundaries of "Executive power", but I'm not sure I disagree with that related to COVID.  My governor has been doing the same thing, and he's been doing a bang-up job, no complaints. 

Georgia has certified for Biden. It's over, Johnny, it's over.  I also understand that many in the Administration is low key helping start the transition (though that was a passing comment from a field reporter on CNN so I don't know how reliable it is). 

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Re: The 2020 Election Thread
« Reply #5411 on: November 19, 2020, 06:32:03 PM »
What you've said is largely correct; but there are crucial details missing.  Trump - or his team - HAS said what SOME of the problems are - there are a couple - he's just not given evidence for all or even most of them.

When your "team" is quoting My Cousin Vinnie to get his point across, I think the argument has lost whatever merits it may have once had.

And for the record, I get the PA Sec of State issue.  That's a valid beef.  If one is allowed to arbitrarily and singularly move the date by which votes are accepted (albeit for a seemingly just cause/reason), that's a problem.  And as you (Bill) state, what's to stop someone from bringing a date for other nefarious reasons in the future.  You've won me over on that topic and legal challenge.  My issue is that Trump isn't doing it with the intent of holding the integrity election process - anyone who claims it is can buy some land I have for a great price in Florida (really, I do).  There aren't enough of these segregated votes to change the outcome.  If it were only about the integrity of the election, Trump could still acknowledge defeat while pursuing that case.

Right now, nothing Trump is doing is for the good of the nation / defending the Constitution - as he took an oath (like the good Christian he is  ::)) to do.

About that land....   ;) :)

I'm kidding.  Sort of.  PM me.  :)

Offline ariich

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Re: The 2020 Election Thread
« Reply #5412 on: November 20, 2020, 12:01:47 AM »
The GOP's official twitter feed is now repeating Trump's lies: https://twitter.com/GOP/status/1329490975266398210

This isn't just a Trump problem, the party itself is complicit.

Offline XJDenton

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Re: The 2020 Election Thread
« Reply #5413 on: November 20, 2020, 04:30:41 AM »
Locked this thread as it was well over the size limit we usually aim for. New thread here:

https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=55904.new#new
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