Author Topic: The 2020 Election Thread  (Read 144372 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Chino

  • Be excellent to each other.
  • DT.net Veteran
  • ****
  • Posts: 23448
  • Gender: Male
Re: The 2020 Election Thread
« Reply #175 on: February 19, 2019, 09:06:02 AM »
She better fucking not.

Offline gmillerdrake

  • Proud Father.....Blessed Husband
  • DTF.org Member
  • *
  • Posts: 15804
  • Gender: Male
  • 1 Timothy 2:5
Re: The 2020 Election Thread
« Reply #176 on: February 19, 2019, 09:24:16 AM »
Man, I really wish Bernie didn't throw himself into this thing.

I personally don't think that lightning can strike twice for him....especially seeing how the field is shaping up for the Dems. Plus, they can all forget about the nomination the second Joe Biden announces he's running. He's the only Dem that can and will beat Trump. The rest of them will not be able to escape the positions they've taken on the issues....and Trump will beat any of them in an election. Biden is the only shot out there at the moment for the Dems
Without Faith.....Without Hope.....There can be No Peace of Mind

Offline Adami

  • Moderator of awesomeness
  • *
  • Posts: 32125
Re: The 2020 Election Thread
« Reply #177 on: February 19, 2019, 09:48:55 AM »
Man, I really wish Bernie didn't throw himself into this thing.

Me too. Looks like 4 more years of Trump.
fanticide.bandcamp.com

Offline Stadler

  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 28089
  • Gender: Male
  • Pointing out the "unfunny" since 2017!
Re: The 2020 Election Thread
« Reply #178 on: February 19, 2019, 10:01:00 AM »
Man, I really wish Bernie didn't throw himself into this thing.

I personally don't think that lightning can strike twice for him....especially seeing how the field is shaping up for the Dems. Plus, they can all forget about the nomination the second Joe Biden announces he's running. He's the only Dem that can and will beat Trump. The rest of them will not be able to escape the positions they've taken on the issues....and Trump will beat any of them in an election. Biden is the only shot out there at the moment for the Dems

I've said that too, and even went so far as to say I'd vote for Lyin' Joe (you can bet the plagiarism to-do will rear it's ugly head against Trump), but I'm rethinking that.  I think if anything, the last three and a half years have shown you can't really beat Trump at his own game at this point.  Trump's game is not one you can play halfway, or to put it another way, you can't eat the cake and have it too. 

The only one that will beat Trump at this point is Trump himself. 

Offline gmillerdrake

  • Proud Father.....Blessed Husband
  • DTF.org Member
  • *
  • Posts: 15804
  • Gender: Male
  • 1 Timothy 2:5
Re: The 2020 Election Thread
« Reply #179 on: February 19, 2019, 10:07:10 AM »
Man, I really wish Bernie didn't throw himself into this thing.

I personally don't think that lightning can strike twice for him....especially seeing how the field is shaping up for the Dems. Plus, they can all forget about the nomination the second Joe Biden announces he's running. He's the only Dem that can and will beat Trump. The rest of them will not be able to escape the positions they've taken on the issues....and Trump will beat any of them in an election. Biden is the only shot out there at the moment for the Dems

I've said that too, and even went so far as to say I'd vote for Lyin' Joe (you can bet the plagiarism to-do will rear it's ugly head against Trump), but I'm rethinking that.  I think if anything, the last three and a half years have shown you can't really beat Trump at his own game at this point.  Trump's game is not one you can play halfway, or to put it another way, you can't eat the cake and have it too. 

The only one that will beat Trump at this point is Trump himself.

If the economy/unemployment/employment/consumer confidence etc etc numbers stay the way they are and/or continue to increase it won't matter who it is. Trump will win. Shut down...no shut down.....wall....no wall....etc etc yadda yadds......those type of things really don't matter when it comes to if people are making money and feeling good. You can say 'it won't last' or 'it's artificial'....or whatever.....which is true to an extent. There will always be a 'correction' to be had or a downturn.....it can't go on forever. But Trump doesn't need that to happen. All he'd need to guarantee a second term is for this economy to stay like it is for another two years....which, it looks like it might. Especially if/when there is a new China trade deal.

I just don't think we're going to see a 'center' candidate anytime soon. The Dems are hanging out on the left and Trump is sitting on the right. Biden was as close to center as they'd get but even he'd be pressured to move left now.
Without Faith.....Without Hope.....There can be No Peace of Mind

Offline Cool Chris

  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 10440
  • Gender: Male
  • Inglourious Basstard
Re: The 2020 Election Thread
« Reply #180 on: February 19, 2019, 10:29:48 AM »
Is there a point where the Rs will realize they are losing control of Trump (as if they ever had any) and will offer up a more "Party-Approved" candidate?
"Nostalgia is just the ability to forget the things that sucked" - Nelson DeMille, 'Up Country'

Offline Stadler

  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 28089
  • Gender: Male
  • Pointing out the "unfunny" since 2017!
Re: The 2020 Election Thread
« Reply #181 on: February 19, 2019, 10:43:23 AM »
Is there a point where the Rs will realize they are losing control of Trump (as if they ever had any) and will offer up a more "Party-Approved" candidate?

To what end?   Forget about what I think SHOULD happen (and what might or might not be good for the Republic) but in a practical sense, given the way that ALL politicians of both parties are incredibly tactical, why would they do that?   It would essentially be conceding the next election and that's untenable (and, in a real sense, an abdication of responsibility). 

Offline El Barto

  • Rascal Atheistic Pig
  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 25654
  • Bad Craziness
Re: The 2020 Election Thread
« Reply #182 on: February 19, 2019, 10:44:41 AM »
Is there a point where the Rs will realize they are losing control of Trump (as if they ever had any) and will offer up a more "Party-Approved" candidate?
Christ, I hope so. Kasich is the most likely option, and he seems alright.

Man, I really wish Bernie didn't throw himself into this thing.
Bernie does have one advantage, though. He can get votes from the rank and file democrats, the lunatic fringe democrats, and probably a handful of moderates who just can't fathom 4 more years of retard rule. Bernie's far more palatable than any of the joke candidates theyr'e putting out. Biden is obviously the best choice, but the loonies on the left will never vote for him. He's a white male and that's enough for them. He'd still fair better than Bernie, though.
Argument, the presentation of reasonable views, never makes headway against conviction, and conviction takes no part in argument because it knows.
E.F. Benson

Offline El Barto

  • Rascal Atheistic Pig
  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 25654
  • Bad Craziness
Re: The 2020 Election Thread
« Reply #183 on: February 19, 2019, 10:47:56 AM »
Is there a point where the Rs will realize they are losing control of Trump (as if they ever had any) and will offer up a more "Party-Approved" candidate?

To what end?   Forget about what I think SHOULD happen (and what might or might not be good for the Republic) but in a practical sense, given the way that ALL politicians of both parties are incredibly tactical, why would they do that?   It would essentially be conceding the next election and that's untenable (and, in a real sense, an abdication of responsibility).
Two reasons. First, if the democrats nominate Biden I think Kasich would stand a better chance of defeating him. Second, Trump's destructive and most republicans know it. Just because he's on your side doesn't mean he's helpful.
Argument, the presentation of reasonable views, never makes headway against conviction, and conviction takes no part in argument because it knows.
E.F. Benson

Offline Stadler

  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 28089
  • Gender: Male
  • Pointing out the "unfunny" since 2017!
Re: The 2020 Election Thread
« Reply #184 on: February 19, 2019, 11:14:36 AM »
Is there a point where the Rs will realize they are losing control of Trump (as if they ever had any) and will offer up a more "Party-Approved" candidate?

To what end?   Forget about what I think SHOULD happen (and what might or might not be good for the Republic) but in a practical sense, given the way that ALL politicians of both parties are incredibly tactical, why would they do that?   It would essentially be conceding the next election and that's untenable (and, in a real sense, an abdication of responsibility).
Two reasons. First, if the democrats nominate Biden I think Kasich would stand a better chance of defeating him. Second, Trump's destructive and most republicans know it. Just because he's on your side doesn't mean he's helpful.

I suppose; but we can list things/people that are "destructive" and yet they were retained as long as they were winning.   Rex Ryan.   Richie Sambora (or, if you will, Ace and Peter).   Any of a 100 maniac actors in big movie franchises.   I'm being funny, but you get my point. 

Offline El Barto

  • Rascal Atheistic Pig
  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 25654
  • Bad Craziness
Re: The 2020 Election Thread
« Reply #185 on: February 19, 2019, 11:56:56 AM »
Is there a point where the Rs will realize they are losing control of Trump (as if they ever had any) and will offer up a more "Party-Approved" candidate?

To what end?   Forget about what I think SHOULD happen (and what might or might not be good for the Republic) but in a practical sense, given the way that ALL politicians of both parties are incredibly tactical, why would they do that?   It would essentially be conceding the next election and that's untenable (and, in a real sense, an abdication of responsibility).
Two reasons. First, if the democrats nominate Biden I think Kasich would stand a better chance of defeating him. Second, Trump's destructive and most republicans know it. Just because he's on your side doesn't mean he's helpful.

I suppose; but we can list things/people that are "destructive" and yet they were retained as long as they were winning.   Rex Ryan.   Richie Sambora (or, if you will, Ace and Peter).   Any of a 100 maniac actors in big movie franchises.   I'm being funny, but you get my point.
I was thinking more along the lines of Aquib Talib. There comes a time when the liabilities outweigh the benefits. And Trump isn't even close to being Talib quality.
Argument, the presentation of reasonable views, never makes headway against conviction, and conviction takes no part in argument because it knows.
E.F. Benson

Offline Cool Chris

  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 10440
  • Gender: Male
  • Inglourious Basstard
Re: The 2020 Election Thread
« Reply #186 on: February 19, 2019, 12:09:45 PM »
Is Aquib Talib that Anti-Semitic Congresswoman out of Minnesota?

I kid.

But yours was the point I was trying to make. The Rs know Trump is just renting space at 1600 Pennsylvania. Unlike him, they have the burden of needing to look beyond 2020 (or 2024).
"Nostalgia is just the ability to forget the things that sucked" - Nelson DeMille, 'Up Country'

Offline Stadler

  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 28089
  • Gender: Male
  • Pointing out the "unfunny" since 2017!
Re: The 2020 Election Thread
« Reply #187 on: February 19, 2019, 12:39:54 PM »
Is there a point where the Rs will realize they are losing control of Trump (as if they ever had any) and will offer up a more "Party-Approved" candidate?

To what end?   Forget about what I think SHOULD happen (and what might or might not be good for the Republic) but in a practical sense, given the way that ALL politicians of both parties are incredibly tactical, why would they do that?   It would essentially be conceding the next election and that's untenable (and, in a real sense, an abdication of responsibility).
Two reasons. First, if the democrats nominate Biden I think Kasich would stand a better chance of defeating him. Second, Trump's destructive and most republicans know it. Just because he's on your side doesn't mean he's helpful.

I suppose; but we can list things/people that are "destructive" and yet they were retained as long as they were winning.   Rex Ryan.   Richie Sambora (or, if you will, Ace and Peter).   Any of a 100 maniac actors in big movie franchises.   I'm being funny, but you get my point.
I was thinking more along the lines of Aquib Talib. There comes a time when the liabilities outweigh the benefits. And Trump isn't even close to being Talib quality.

I don't disagree, and certainly, I believe we're well past that (though you also know that we were well past that before 2016, but I digress to the horse lying in the street).   But that also goes to point that you are more optimistic in this context than I am; if Trump doesn't make you learn your lesson, who will?  The Dems haven't learned (doubling or even tripling down on the identity politics platform basis).   

Offline El Barto

  • Rascal Atheistic Pig
  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 25654
  • Bad Craziness
Re: The 2020 Election Thread
« Reply #188 on: February 19, 2019, 12:55:48 PM »
Going back to Bernie for a bit, does any sane person actually think he could accomplish any of the nonsense he prattles on about? Trump can't even muster support for a wall that everybody has supported at one point or another. So we worry that Bernie is going to turn us into Venezuela in four years? I think an awful lot of what he proposes is silly, but it's all stuff I know won't happen anyway. I also think he's one of the few people in DC with a functioning sense of ethics, and I'd weight that very highly when choosing a candidate. I'd certainly prefer Biden, simply because he'd set reasonable goals that actually make sense. In a pinch I'd vote for the impotent Bernie, though. He cares and he's not a lying, childish shitbag.
Argument, the presentation of reasonable views, never makes headway against conviction, and conviction takes no part in argument because it knows.
E.F. Benson

Offline Stadler

  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 28089
  • Gender: Male
  • Pointing out the "unfunny" since 2017!
Re: The 2020 Election Thread
« Reply #189 on: February 19, 2019, 01:03:09 PM »
That's not a bad strategy, actually, and while I've never taken that with regards to an entire candidate, I have taken it with respect to certain issues (you and I talked about that concept when discussing Supreme Court justices a while back, and it's nominally my stance with respect to identity politics and voting Republican, at least pre-Trump).   

Offline KevShmev

  • EZBoard Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 34526
  • Gender: Male
Re: The 2020 Election Thread
« Reply #190 on: February 19, 2019, 06:11:50 PM »
If Bernie can make student loan forgiveness happen, I am on board.  :biggrin:

Offline kaos2900

  • Posts: 2841
  • Gender: Male
Re: The 2020 Election Thread
« Reply #191 on: February 20, 2019, 12:27:10 PM »
If Bernie can make student loan forgiveness happen, I am on board.  :biggrin:

I guess I don't understand this. I get college is expensive but why should debt just be magically removed. I paid my school off. My wife paid her school off. Do we get refunds?

Offline Cool Chris

  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 10440
  • Gender: Male
  • Inglourious Basstard
Re: The 2020 Election Thread
« Reply #192 on: February 20, 2019, 12:36:40 PM »
So a gal who just wanted some ranch has provided us with the most amazing campaign clip in the history of politics.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GYZTeRmFvMs
"Nostalgia is just the ability to forget the things that sucked" - Nelson DeMille, 'Up Country'

Offline Chino

  • Be excellent to each other.
  • DT.net Veteran
  • ****
  • Posts: 23448
  • Gender: Male
Re: The 2020 Election Thread
« Reply #193 on: February 20, 2019, 12:39:04 PM »
If Bernie can make student loan forgiveness happen, I am on board.  :biggrin:

I guess I don't understand this. I get college is expensive but why should debt just be magically removed. I paid my school off. My wife paid her school off. Do we get refunds?

The same reason Ford didn't get a government bailout and other US manufacturers did. Desperate times call for desperate measures. A massive portion of my generation's has life on hold because of their loans. 30 year olds are still struggling to afford a single bedroom apartment, let alone thinking of starting a family and buying houses.

If there isn't a bailout, something needs to be done about the interest rates. I was able to get a loan for my house at a 3.25% interest rate. There's no reason why student loans should be upwards of 10%.
« Last Edit: February 20, 2019, 12:48:34 PM by Chino »

Offline cramx3

  • Chillest of the chill
  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 27759
  • Gender: Male
    • The Home of cramx3
Re: The 2020 Election Thread
« Reply #194 on: February 20, 2019, 12:43:12 PM »
Student loans at 20%?  Who's taking these loans out?  I recall mine being around 3-5%, I dont really remember and was just talking about this with my gf who's loans are at 3.5%. 

I should also add, now that I am in my mid 30s, I don't really know anyone at my age who is hampered by student loans anymore other than a couple of my doctor friends who have significant debt, but also make enough that it isn't a problem to make their payments (so I don't think the loans are holding them back essentially).

Offline Chino

  • Be excellent to each other.
  • DT.net Veteran
  • ****
  • Posts: 23448
  • Gender: Male
Re: The 2020 Election Thread
« Reply #195 on: February 20, 2019, 12:48:15 PM »
Student loans at 20%?  Who's taking these loans out?  I recall mine being around 3-5%, I dont really remember and was just talking about this with my gf who's loans are at 3.5%. 

I should also add, now that I am in my mid 30s, I don't really know anyone at my age who is hampered by student loans anymore other than a couple of my doctor friends who have significant debt, but also make enough that it isn't a problem to make their payments (so I don't think the loans are holding them back essentially).

 :lol Fat fingered that. I meant to type "10%"

Offline Cool Chris

  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 10440
  • Gender: Male
  • Inglourious Basstard
Re: The 2020 Election Thread
« Reply #196 on: February 20, 2019, 01:03:24 PM »
If there isn't a bailout, something needs to be done about the interest rates. I was able to get a loan for my house at a 3.25% interest rate. There's no reason why student loans should be upwards of 10%.

Lending on real estate and lending on education have the same levels risk. I know you can't break down the particulars such as the LTV of a student loan like you can a house, but they aren't the same.

I was fortunate to not be saddled with student debt, but I also think contracts should be honored (sorry for channeling Stadler here) in order to maintain some integrity to the system. The whole college system in the US needs to be blown up and started over, but this isn't the way to do it.
"Nostalgia is just the ability to forget the things that sucked" - Nelson DeMille, 'Up Country'

Offline Stadler

  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 28089
  • Gender: Male
  • Pointing out the "unfunny" since 2017!
Re: The 2020 Election Thread
« Reply #197 on: February 20, 2019, 01:26:10 PM »
I'm usually on board with Chino on most things, but not this one.  I think Chris has it right on the nose.   You'll never get an unsecured loan again if this happens like Bernie wants it to. Who would do that?  You can put your money in better vehicles that are either secured or have a better return. 


Offline cramx3

  • Chillest of the chill
  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 27759
  • Gender: Male
    • The Home of cramx3
Re: The 2020 Election Thread
« Reply #198 on: February 20, 2019, 01:33:05 PM »
Yea, you can't just wipe personal responsibility IMO.  But the system is pretty bad right now, I'm not sure how to fix it besides telling people that if you aren't going into a money making major, don't go to college.  I feel like that's just where we are at right now because it's not affordable if you aren't going to position yourself to have a good career to pay back that loan. 

Offline Chino

  • Be excellent to each other.
  • DT.net Veteran
  • ****
  • Posts: 23448
  • Gender: Male
Re: The 2020 Election Thread
« Reply #199 on: February 20, 2019, 01:51:28 PM »
Just to clarify, I'm not looking to outright clear everyone's student loan debt, though I would like to see it addressed. I've already mentioned the interest rates, and I think that'd be a good start. I think it'd also be cool if the government maybe did some sort of matching program to incentivize people to pay them off now rather than just sit on them hoping for a bailout. Rather than completely bailing someone out, match their payment or something on a payment-by-payment basis. If you put $300 toward your loan one month, the government matches it.
 

I understand the whole personal responsibility argument, I really do. I believe in it for just about everything, but we aren't talking about just a handful of people here, and the financial stability of an entire generation is legitimately at risk. I mean, there's currently something like 44 million people with student loan debt to the tune of something like 1.4T dollars. That's not a fluke. That was the systematic targeting of naive young people with no real life experience for financial gain. I can't buy a fucking beer but someone will let me borrow $120K just out of high school? I understand that more due diligence could have been done in regards to their majors, and no, they don't need a monthly Pandora or Spotify subscription, but I think it's pretty clear that this is a problem and a situation that goes much deeper than people just not wanting to be responsible and prioritizing avocados over financial stability. 

By the way, I say this as someone with no student loan debt of any kind. So if you're thinking I'm saying these things because I too want some kind of handout or assistance, you are mistaken.
« Last Edit: February 20, 2019, 02:18:47 PM by Chino »

Offline cramx3

  • Chillest of the chill
  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 27759
  • Gender: Male
    • The Home of cramx3
Re: The 2020 Election Thread
« Reply #200 on: February 20, 2019, 01:58:10 PM »
I believe people are preying on those students taking out loans too, and I think it's the schools themselves personally in a way, they make lots of money these schools.  The rise in tuition is kind of insane to me over the course of say the last 20 years.  Some of this is on society, from my youth, it was engrained in me that I need to go to not only go to college, but I NEED to go to the best college to succeed.  And I think that's just flat out wrong.  Is it worth it to take a $150k loan to work a 40k job?  Where as I can get a 35k job without the college and loan?  I really do think high schools should havea required class on money management, things like loans and calculating interest in real life purchases that most of us will make in our lives, like a car loan, student loans, and mortgages.  I felt very unprepared for this even coming out of college but I learned and dealt with it, but not everyone is able to figure things out on their own and that's where I feel like people get preyed upon.  Oh you NEED that arts degree, and you NEED it at that private school.  BS

Offline El Barto

  • Rascal Atheistic Pig
  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 25654
  • Bad Craziness
Re: The 2020 Election Thread
« Reply #201 on: February 20, 2019, 02:14:21 PM »
Yeah, schools are a big part of the problem. As are predatory lenders, who often times go hand in hand. I think it's something that could be addressed, but the discussion often collapses with simply "you agreed to it, deal with it." We don't need to drop that idea, but we do need to navigate it a little better than we're currently willing.
Argument, the presentation of reasonable views, never makes headway against conviction, and conviction takes no part in argument because it knows.
E.F. Benson

Offline cramx3

  • Chillest of the chill
  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 27759
  • Gender: Male
    • The Home of cramx3
Re: The 2020 Election Thread
« Reply #202 on: February 20, 2019, 02:48:43 PM »
Yea, I'm pretty big on "you agreed so your problem" but that doesnt mean we cant improve. Predatory loans and tuition inflation seem to me spots to improve and we can still have a system of "you agreed so your problem" but that still leaves us with the opposite extreme of "wipe all student debt" and I do think we should stop talking about making that an unrealistic reality. It reminds me of voting for our class treasurer in 7th grade who promises to remove the fees from the vending machines in the cafeteria. Sounds great and got the votes to win but just doesnt make financial sense and therefore never happens.

Offline Cool Chris

  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 10440
  • Gender: Male
  • Inglourious Basstard
Re: The 2020 Election Thread
« Reply #203 on: February 20, 2019, 02:51:43 PM »
I was pleasantly surprised to hear Gillibrand (I believe it was her) say something to the tune of "Yeah, I'd like to give every student free tuition to a four-year college, but that just doesn't make sense financially." Can't remember the last time I heard a politician say those last 6 words.
"Nostalgia is just the ability to forget the things that sucked" - Nelson DeMille, 'Up Country'

Offline El Barto

  • Rascal Atheistic Pig
  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 25654
  • Bad Craziness
Re: The 2020 Election Thread
« Reply #204 on: February 20, 2019, 04:59:20 PM »
I was pleasantly surprised to hear Gillibrand (I believe it was her) say something to the tune of "Yeah, I'd like to give every student free tuition to a four-year college, but that just doesn't make sense financially." Can't remember the last time I heard a politician say those last 6 words.
Not at the rates schooling costs nowadays it doesn't, but that should be part of the problem we address. Same with healthcare. If it were affordable there woulnd't be such a stink about who pays for it.

Also, two years is enough. Or a trade school.
Argument, the presentation of reasonable views, never makes headway against conviction, and conviction takes no part in argument because it knows.
E.F. Benson

Offline Cool Chris

  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 10440
  • Gender: Male
  • Inglourious Basstard
Re: The 2020 Election Thread
« Reply #205 on: February 20, 2019, 05:06:57 PM »
Had this conversation with a friend the other day.... I said people who go to college should get in and finish as fast as they can. It minimizes their expenses and gets them in the workforce sooner. If you want to be a brain surgeon, take the classes that are going to make you the best brain surgeon you can be, and don't get bogged down with studying 12th century Greek architecture. He said that everyone should get a well-rounded education, and that the Greek architecture class will made that doc a more educated and thus better person and employee.

On an anecdotal note, I entered college with the intention of studying engineering. I determined it wasn't for me (or rather my D average did). Setting myself up a specific path, only taking classes that align with that path, and then flaming out left me in a bad state.

Yes trade schools are and should always been an option. As long as we have toilets we're gonna need people to fix them. Or, as you and the good judge have oft said "The world needs ditch diggers too."
"Nostalgia is just the ability to forget the things that sucked" - Nelson DeMille, 'Up Country'

Offline El Barto

  • Rascal Atheistic Pig
  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 25654
  • Bad Craziness
Re: The 2020 Election Thread
« Reply #206 on: February 20, 2019, 05:24:36 PM »
Funny you mention the world needing toilets. When I was including trade-schools I was thinking about something I heard on NPR about the rise in apprenticeships. Plumbing has always been a learn as you go thing. Pretty sure electricians still use that model, as well. There's a lot to be said for that and trying to expand it to other areas. It seems to me that there are plenty of professions where paying somebody to gain real, practical experience would benefit everybody. Maye you decide that plumbing isn't for you and flame out, but you've learned that without blowing a fortune on college and somebody got the use of your assistance while you figured it out.
Argument, the presentation of reasonable views, never makes headway against conviction, and conviction takes no part in argument because it knows.
E.F. Benson

Offline Cool Chris

  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 10440
  • Gender: Male
  • Inglourious Basstard
Re: The 2020 Election Thread
« Reply #207 on: February 20, 2019, 05:31:57 PM »
Don't know if there is a rise in apprenticeships. Seems like they've been going strong for a while - maybe it's a regional thing. I explored that option briefly but ended up doing a different route. I did see value in the model as you described though. Spend time in the classroom learning and working in the field with a journeyman. You gain skills, don't go broke, they impart their knowledge, send apprentices out on jobs with a journeyman to do the scut work at a lower wage, which saves the customer money.
"Nostalgia is just the ability to forget the things that sucked" - Nelson DeMille, 'Up Country'

Offline El Barto

  • Rascal Atheistic Pig
  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 25654
  • Bad Craziness
Re: The 2020 Election Thread
« Reply #208 on: February 20, 2019, 06:46:43 PM »
The rise came from trying to expand it to other fields. Nursing was one, as I recall.
Argument, the presentation of reasonable views, never makes headway against conviction, and conviction takes no part in argument because it knows.
E.F. Benson

Offline Chino

  • Be excellent to each other.
  • DT.net Veteran
  • ****
  • Posts: 23448
  • Gender: Male
Re: The 2020 Election Thread
« Reply #209 on: February 21, 2019, 06:20:58 AM »
I was pleasantly surprised to hear Gillibrand (I believe it was her) say something to the tune of "Yeah, I'd like to give every student free tuition to a four-year college, but that just doesn't make sense financially." Can't remember the last time I heard a politician say those last 6 words.
Not at the rates schooling costs nowadays it doesn't, but that should be part of the problem we address. Same with healthcare. If it were affordable there woulnd't be such a stink about who pays for it.

Also, two years is enough. Or a trade school.

This. College needs an overhaul, and employers need to get their heads out of their asses when it comes to hiring people. We no longer live in a world where just general knowledge in a lot of areas is useful. We need specialization, not jack of all trades people.

1) The amount of bullshit I had to take in college cost me a fortune and wasted my time. I had to take PE in college. Really? Anthropology was my favorite course, but I didn't need it to write technical specs to be consumed by IT dudes in India. Chemistry and Biology, both classroom and lab, useless. 3 years of Spanish, fucking useless. Two history classes, useless. Intro to fiction, useless. I could have gotten everything needed for my major in two years and instead it took almost 5 because of useless filler.

2) Employer's current obsession with people having masters degrees bothers me too. I work with so many 40+ year old people with families and children who are taking on $60K+ in student loans, AT THE AGE OF 40, to get a masters degree because they can no longer climb the ranks in corporate without one. If a person has been in the industry for 20+ years, a masters degree isn't going to make them any more qualified for a higher position. I'm all for taking certification and training classes, but you don't need to go back to school entirely. It seems insane to me. My boss went back to Georgetown for his masters 7 years ago at the age of 41. $120K in loans! He's got 3 kids between the ages of 9 and 12, and he saddled himself with that burden. He's still got $$90K to pay off. It's stupid and I hate it.