Author Topic: The 2020 Election Thread  (Read 144373 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Chino

  • Be excellent to each other.
  • DT.net Veteran
  • ****
  • Posts: 23448
  • Gender: Male
Re: The 2020 Election Thread
« Reply #105 on: January 07, 2019, 11:47:20 AM »
The way she reminds me of trump is how she uses social media in a way that politicians haven't before.  Not that they use it the same way, but that they are connecting to their followers in a way that we haven't really seen before.  Trump does it in a way that makes you hate social media and she's doing it in a way that gives you a more insightful view of how she's doing things (I think at least, I don't follow her but from the things I've read).

Call me the "old man", but both make me hate social media, because both are using it to short-circuit the hard work that the recipient of the information needs to do to have it be substantive.   Both are presenting their views in soundbite format, with no depth, no substance, and no opportunity for any reasoned debate.

[Serious] Have you followed her on social media? I don't mean that in the sense that you've read articles on websites where they might talk about something she posted, but I mean actually follow her?

I don't like everything about the gal, but she's handling social media better (not perfect) than any other politician I know of right now . I actually really like her "stories" on Instagram. She'll post clips of her walking into a conference room or what she's reading on a train and include a brief write up along the lines of "Today at 10:15 we're meeting to discuss __________ and the feasibility of doing ___________. Later in the day I will be meeting with _______ to discuss how to move forward on _________.   

Even if I don't agree with her stance, something about her presence on social media is actually really refreshing for me. At least in the interim she's being very transparent and lets me as a tax payer see what my money is being spent on. You can see that she's out about in DC all day, working with her constituents, and trying her best to let the voters know that their vote didn't go to waste.

Her use of social media should be the standard. 

Offline cramx3

  • Chillest of the chill
  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 27759
  • Gender: Male
    • The Home of cramx3
Re: The 2020 Election Thread
« Reply #106 on: January 07, 2019, 11:47:27 AM »
The way she reminds me of trump is how she uses social media in a way that politicians haven't before.  Not that they use it the same way, but that they are connecting to their followers in a way that we haven't really seen before.  Trump does it in a way that makes you hate social media and she's doing it in a way that gives you a more insightful view of how she's doing things (I think at least, I don't follow her but from the things I've read).

Call me the "old man", but both make me hate social media, because both are using it to short-circuit the hard work that the recipient of the information needs to do to have it be substantive.   Both are presenting their views in soundbite format, with no depth, no substance, and no opportunity for any reasoned debate.   

Well I used the word "insightful" for a reason, and every politician uses social media for thier own views but I think she's using at least in a way that gives you a feeling or learning more about the process at least and not just her views. 

I haven't looked into her views or anything to know much about her, but while I can say I am sure I will disagree with a lot of it, I do get the sense that at least she's doing it the right way and she is the future of what our politicians could look like so her doing it the right way is a big plus in my book and maybe that's her only plus in my book, I don't know, but I read a lot of positive things about her as a person and I respect that at least.  If it rubs off onto our future politicians, regardless of views, that's a good thing in my mind.

Offline Adami

  • Moderator of awesomeness
  • *
  • Posts: 32125
Re: The 2020 Election Thread
« Reply #107 on: January 07, 2019, 11:52:53 AM »
https://nypost.com/2019/01/04/ocasio-cortez-proposes-massive-tax-hike-on-the-wealthy/

Love it.  Awesome.   Welcome to four more years of Donald Trump. Unlike most, I don't think she's an idiot; I think she's pretty smart, just not on economics.  This is more an indication of someone simply being drunk on national power and celebrity.   "Hey someone is listening to me!  I'm going to say something interesting to keep them listening!"

Someone ask Mick Jagger, Jimmy Page, Elton John, Brian May, etc. how that worked for Britain.   NYC certainly loved it, as did France.

I don't think she's an idiot either. That being said I disagree with 99.9% of everything she said and she scares me for some reason. I really see no difference between her and trump other than age and gender. Both say stupid shit not supported by facts.

I bet Ocasio hasn't openly bragged about sexually assaulting other humanbeings, or opened universities to scam people out of money, or set up a bogus cancer charity to funnel money to other shell companies, or used property in NYC to launder money for the Russian mob.

That's the problem with our black/white, all/nothing thinking. If they're not amazing and saintly, then they're no different than Trump. We have no sense of degrees anymore. Even on here, people like Old Man Stads have shunned the idea of degrees being important. Bad is bad. Good is good. All or nothing.


Edit: That was a little hyperbolic, and I'm aware of the irony in what I said.
fanticide.bandcamp.com

Offline El Barto

  • Rascal Atheistic Pig
  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 25654
  • Bad Craziness
Re: The 2020 Election Thread
« Reply #108 on: January 07, 2019, 12:10:44 PM »
I see a major difference between Trump and AOC. She's still young enough to be idealistic. At her core I think she really wants to help people, even if she's misguided about how to do it. Trump cares about himself and nothing else. While some of his hare-brained notions might trickle down to benefit others, that's usually the result of it being directed at him, or an effort to embiggen his own ego. The one criticism I haven't heard about AOC is that she's only doing this for herself. I can't fathom that there's anybody alive, even his family, that could say he's doing it for anybody but himself.

As for which is better, I suppose it's up to the individual to figure out if a generally altruistic youngster is better than a self-serving old man.
Argument, the presentation of reasonable views, never makes headway against conviction, and conviction takes no part in argument because it knows.
E.F. Benson

Offline gmillerdrake

  • Proud Father.....Blessed Husband
  • DTF.org Member
  • *
  • Posts: 15804
  • Gender: Male
  • 1 Timothy 2:5
Re: The 2020 Election Thread
« Reply #109 on: January 07, 2019, 12:22:17 PM »
I see a major difference between Trump and AOC. She's still young enough to be idealistic. At her core I think she really wants to help people, even if she's misguided about how to do it.

Completely agree with that. 100%  I'm just massively concerned over (2) things when it comes to her. She freely admits to Socialist/Communist ideologies being acceptable or the 'way' she'd go about doing things. And, the fact that she's still popular and celebrated while not hiding her belief in this is startling and scary to me.

Sure, right now it's just 'her' with these ideas and desired approach to governing America but next thing you know there's three of 'her' in Congress.....then ten....then twenty. Next thing you know 10-15 years from now there's an entire openly Socialist wing of Congress that is set on changing the Fundamental Fabric of the US Constitution.
Without Faith.....Without Hope.....There can be No Peace of Mind

Offline cramx3

  • Chillest of the chill
  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 27759
  • Gender: Male
    • The Home of cramx3
Re: The 2020 Election Thread
« Reply #110 on: January 07, 2019, 12:25:26 PM »
I see a major difference between Trump and AOC. She's still young enough to be idealistic. At her core I think she really wants to help people, even if she's misguided about how to do it.

Completely agree with that. 100%  I'm just massively concerned over (2) things when it comes to her. She freely admits to Socialist/Communist ideologies being acceptable or the 'way' she'd go about doing things. And, the fact that she's still popular and celebrated while not hiding her belief in this is startling and scary to me.

Sure, right now it's just 'her' with these ideas and desired approach to governing America but next thing you know there's three of 'her' in Congress.....then ten....then twenty. Next thing you know 10-15 years from now there's an entire openly Socialist wing of Congress that is set on changing the Fundamental Fabric of the US Constitution.

This is not how I envision America personally but that's just me.  If our county were to start electing these people and moving in that direction, at least it will be by the will of the American people.  I can accept that even if it's not my view.

Personally, I think a lot of her popularity is because she's relatable in a political environment that mostly otherwise is not.

Offline kaos2900

  • Posts: 2841
  • Gender: Male
Re: The 2020 Election Thread
« Reply #111 on: January 07, 2019, 12:34:01 PM »
https://nypost.com/2019/01/04/ocasio-cortez-proposes-massive-tax-hike-on-the-wealthy/

Love it.  Awesome.   Welcome to four more years of Donald Trump. Unlike most, I don't think she's an idiot; I think she's pretty smart, just not on economics.  This is more an indication of someone simply being drunk on national power and celebrity.   "Hey someone is listening to me!  I'm going to say something interesting to keep them listening!"

Someone ask Mick Jagger, Jimmy Page, Elton John, Brian May, etc. how that worked for Britain.   NYC certainly loved it, as did France.

I don't think she's an idiot either. That being said I disagree with 99.9% of everything she said and she scares me for some reason. I really see no difference between her and trump other than age and gender. Both say stupid shit not supported by facts.

I bet Ocasio hasn't openly bragged about sexually assaulting other humanbeings, or opened universities to scam people out of money, or set up a bogus cancer charity to funnel money to other shell companies, or used property in NYC to launder money for the Russian mob.

I meant in regards to their politics not their quality of humanity. I don't know enough about her to judge her on that yet.

https://www.cnn.com/2019/01/07/politics/alexandria-ocasio-cortez-facts/index.html
« Last Edit: January 07, 2019, 12:54:15 PM by kaos2900 »

Offline Stadler

  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 28089
  • Gender: Male
  • Pointing out the "unfunny" since 2017!
Re: The 2020 Election Thread
« Reply #112 on: January 07, 2019, 12:44:45 PM »
The way she reminds me of trump is how she uses social media in a way that politicians haven't before.  Not that they use it the same way, but that they are connecting to their followers in a way that we haven't really seen before.  Trump does it in a way that makes you hate social media and she's doing it in a way that gives you a more insightful view of how she's doing things (I think at least, I don't follow her but from the things I've read).

Call me the "old man", but both make me hate social media, because both are using it to short-circuit the hard work that the recipient of the information needs to do to have it be substantive.   Both are presenting their views in soundbite format, with no depth, no substance, and no opportunity for any reasoned debate.

Like the reasoned debates Trump and Hillary had during the last campaign? Come on Stads, no politician ever gives you all the information, just the soundbites that people really want to hear. If there was a neutral fact checker during debates that would be a different thing, but there is not, so people still need to go and check everything politician say. Social media just provides a way for candidate to get their message across in a broader and cheaper way.

Exactly!!  I don't disagree at all (up to the last sentence).  That's why I don't get my panties in a wad over the latest misspelled, oddly capitalized tantrum from Trump.  Or Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez's tortured gymnastics of justification.   I believe I am at least as informed as the average American (I'm being humble) and I follow one politician - one - and that's for entertainment purposes only.   I follow more people from here than I do elected officials.  I follow more ex-members of KISS than I do elected officials.  I don't even rely on it for the "message"; I think you get a far better read on it from speeches, interviews, and whatnot. 

Offline Stadler

  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 28089
  • Gender: Male
  • Pointing out the "unfunny" since 2017!
Re: The 2020 Election Thread
« Reply #113 on: January 07, 2019, 12:50:31 PM »
https://nypost.com/2019/01/04/ocasio-cortez-proposes-massive-tax-hike-on-the-wealthy/

Love it.  Awesome.   Welcome to four more years of Donald Trump. Unlike most, I don't think she's an idiot; I think she's pretty smart, just not on economics.  This is more an indication of someone simply being drunk on national power and celebrity.   "Hey someone is listening to me!  I'm going to say something interesting to keep them listening!"

Someone ask Mick Jagger, Jimmy Page, Elton John, Brian May, etc. how that worked for Britain.   NYC certainly loved it, as did France.

I don't think she's an idiot either. That being said I disagree with 99.9% of everything she said and she scares me for some reason. I really see no difference between her and trump other than age and gender. Both say stupid shit not supported by facts.

I bet Ocasio hasn't openly bragged about sexually assaulting other humanbeings, or opened universities to scam people out of money, or set up a bogus cancer charity to funnel money to other shell companies, or used property in NYC to launder money for the Russian mob.

That's the problem with our black/white, all/nothing thinking. If they're not amazing and saintly, then they're no different than Trump. We have no sense of degrees anymore. Even on here, people like Old Man Stads have shunned the idea of degrees being important. Bad is bad. Good is good. All or nothing.


Edit: That was a little hyperbolic, and I'm aware of the irony in what I said.

That's not entirely true, though.  I'm a big fan of "degrees", if the alternative is "black and white".  I just push back on either one being used as the defense for doing neither (if that makes sense).  What I mean is, I think there's an incredibly high degree of "Trump said it? Must be wrong!"   Why?  "Oh, he's the most <insert perjorative> in the history of man".   It's like the implicit understanding HAS to be that "he's BAD!" and whatever rationale or reasoning that follows to that is the one we're going to go with.   The fact is, degree DOES matter, and in almost all ways, he's the Nigel Tufnel of politics (if I have to explain that, you should perhaps reassess your presence on a Dream Theater forum).   That's not in and of itself a bad thing. 

Offline Chino

  • Be excellent to each other.
  • DT.net Veteran
  • ****
  • Posts: 23448
  • Gender: Male
Re: The 2020 Election Thread
« Reply #114 on: January 07, 2019, 01:01:45 PM »
I see a major difference between Trump and AOC. She's still young enough to be idealistic. At her core I think she really wants to help people, even if she's misguided about how to do it.

Completely agree with that. 100%  I'm just massively concerned over (2) things when it comes to her. She freely admits to Socialist/Communist ideologies being acceptable or the 'way' she'd go about doing things. And, the fact that she's still popular and celebrated while not hiding her belief in this is startling and scary to me.

Sure, right now it's just 'her' with these ideas and desired approach to governing America but next thing you know there's three of 'her' in Congress.....then ten....then twenty. Next thing you know 10-15 years from now there's an entire openly Socialist wing of Congress that is set on changing the Fundamental Fabric of the US Constitution.

This is not how I envision America personally but that's just me.  If our county were to start electing these people and moving in that direction, at least it will be by the will of the American people.  I can accept that even if it's not my view.

Personally, I think a lot of her popularity is because she's relatable in a political environment that mostly otherwise is not.

Can I ask what you guys are most afraid on in regards to the "socialist ideologies" you see coming down the road? I really don't see anyone asking for anything other than adult education and healthcare (and a few people that mention UBI).
- Military
- Medicare
- Medicaid
- Social Security
- NASA
- Public Parks
- K-12 Education
- FEMA
- Libraries
- Police
- Fire Departments
- Voting
- The FDA
- The EPA
- Department of Traffic
- Public Attorneys
- Sewage Treatment
- Highways
- The VA
- Public Transportation


I guess I just don't get the "socialism" argument. We already have a ton of programs. Everything in the list above does great things for our society. Why would we not want as much education and health on that list as we can get?

Offline El Barto

  • Rascal Atheistic Pig
  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 25654
  • Bad Craziness
Re: The 2020 Election Thread
« Reply #115 on: January 07, 2019, 01:05:25 PM »
I see a major difference between Trump and AOC. She's still young enough to be idealistic. At her core I think she really wants to help people, even if she's misguided about how to do it.

Completely agree with that. 100%  I'm just massively concerned over (2) things when it comes to her. She freely admits to Socialist/Communist ideologies being acceptable or the 'way' she'd go about doing things. And, the fact that she's still popular and celebrated while not hiding her belief in this is startling and scary to me.

Sure, right now it's just 'her' with these ideas and desired approach to governing America but next thing you know there's three of 'her' in Congress.....then ten....then twenty. Next thing you know 10-15 years from now there's an entire openly Socialist wing of Congress that is set on changing the Fundamental Fabric of the US Constitution.
If your timeframe plays out, there's a wing in congress. That's still not enough to change the fabric of society. Now, 50-75 years perhaps there's a majority, but such is the nature of social progress. If it reflects the will of the people then that's what's warranted, is it not? Seems to me your fighting the change that will happen beyond your lifetime.
Argument, the presentation of reasonable views, never makes headway against conviction, and conviction takes no part in argument because it knows.
E.F. Benson

Offline Stadler

  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 28089
  • Gender: Male
  • Pointing out the "unfunny" since 2017!
Re: The 2020 Election Thread
« Reply #116 on: January 07, 2019, 01:05:45 PM »
I see a major difference between Trump and AOC. She's still young enough to be idealistic. At her core I think she really wants to help people, even if she's misguided about how to do it. Trump cares about himself and nothing else. While some of his hare-brained notions might trickle down to benefit others, that's usually the result of it being directed at him, or an effort to embiggen his own ego. The one criticism I haven't heard about AOC is that she's only doing this for herself. I can't fathom that there's anybody alive, even his family, that could say he's doing it for anybody but himself.

As for which is better, I suppose it's up to the individual to figure out if a generally altruistic youngster is better than a self-serving old man.

And to me, while process matters, it can't be determined without at least an understanding of what the outcome is.   If the self-serving old man is a surgeon with a god-complex who wants to prove how great he is by grafting zebra hearts into fetuses in order to give them cancer immunity (and thereby saving millions of lives), I'll take that over the altruistic youngster who believes they are benefitting mankind by installing a urine-based drinking water system.   

I have made no bones about economics being my key driver, and that allows me to overlook a lot of Trump's shenanigans (and reject someone I think is actually a decent, honest, kind human being, Sanders) because I believe that economic strength is the predicate for all else.  We can't have social equality without first being strong economically (or at least it becomes easier).  We can't have effective outcomes in healthcare and education (two things AO-C talked about with Anderson Cooper last night) without first being strong economically.  We cannot hope to negotiate with China or Russia without first being strong economically.  We cannot even begin to combat global warming without first being strong economically.   

Tapping out our wealthiest people at 70% tax rates is not going to give us that.  Reallocating funds to a cadillac healthcare system, without fundamentally fixing the waste and excess of that infrastructure is not going to give us that.   Opening our borders, dissolving ICE, and letting the chips fall where they may is not going to give us that.   

The idealism of Gene and Paul in NYC was awesome, and led to some great entertainment, but I didn't have to pay for it (either in terms of money or consequences).  If AO-C wants to tweet her day, that's awesome (sincerely) and a fresh way of looking at things, but I don't have to pay for that (either in terms of money or consequences).   When you start fucking around with the $20 trillion economy that is the lynchpin of the global economy, and might perhaps be considered the primary defense against a Chinese domination of the world, well, guess what; the idealism gets tarnished, because now I DO have to pay for that, if not monetarily (I have no doubt that as funds get scarce, I'll magically become the "tippy top" at least in terms of her funding source) then certainly consequentially.   

And yes, I'm conscious of the irony of basically accusing the outspoken idealist of having too narrow a scope of interest.

Offline jingle.boy

  • I'm so ronery; so sad and ronery
  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 34847
  • Gender: Male
  • DTF's resident deceased dictator
Re: The 2020 Election Thread
« Reply #117 on: January 07, 2019, 01:14:00 PM »
I see a major difference between Trump and AOC. She's still young enough to be idealistic. At her core I think she really wants to help people, even if she's misguided about how to do it.

Completely agree with that. 100%  I'm just massively concerned over (2) things when it comes to her. She freely admits to Socialist/Communist ideologies being acceptable or the 'way' she'd go about doing things. And, the fact that she's still popular and celebrated while not hiding her belief in this is startling and scary to me.

Sure, right now it's just 'her' with these ideas and desired approach to governing America but next thing you know there's three of 'her' in Congress.....then ten....then twenty. Next thing you know 10-15 years from now there's an entire openly Socialist wing of Congress that is set on changing the Fundamental Fabric of the US Constitution.

I'm curious to know what her openly socialist and communist ideologies are?  Honestly, I've heard nothing of the sort - she doesn't get a lot of press up here - so I'm curious to know what (other than jacking up the marginal personal tax rates) they are?  I just looked at her 2018 election page, and here are her platform topics:

Medicare For All
Housing As a Human Right
A Peace Economy
A Federal Jobs Guarantee
Gun Control / Assault Weapons Ban
Criminal Justice Reform, End Private Prisons
Immigration Justice / Abolish ICE
Solidarity with Puerto Rico
Mobilizing Against Climate Change
Clean Campaign Finance
Higher Education / Trade School for All
Women's Rights
Support LGBTQIA+
Support Seniors
Curb Wall Street Gambling: Restore Glass Steagall
Fox = drip-feeding dumb people with rage-porn. CNN = drip-feeding smug assholes with moral reassurance.
I'll do my best, but this? The guy's getting Llamathrust.
Happy is the dog that stops and licks his balls.

Offline gmillerdrake

  • Proud Father.....Blessed Husband
  • DTF.org Member
  • *
  • Posts: 15804
  • Gender: Male
  • 1 Timothy 2:5
Re: The 2020 Election Thread
« Reply #118 on: January 07, 2019, 01:21:57 PM »
I see a major difference between Trump and AOC. She's still young enough to be idealistic. At her core I think she really wants to help people, even if she's misguided about how to do it.

Completely agree with that. 100%  I'm just massively concerned over (2) things when it comes to her. She freely admits to Socialist/Communist ideologies being acceptable or the 'way' she'd go about doing things. And, the fact that she's still popular and celebrated while not hiding her belief in this is startling and scary to me.

Sure, right now it's just 'her' with these ideas and desired approach to governing America but next thing you know there's three of 'her' in Congress.....then ten....then twenty. Next thing you know 10-15 years from now there's an entire openly Socialist wing of Congress that is set on changing the Fundamental Fabric of the US Constitution.
If your timeframe plays out, there's a wing in congress. That's still not enough to change the fabric of society. Now, 50-75 years perhaps there's a majority, but such is the nature of social progress. If it reflects the will of the people then that's what's warranted, is it not? Seems to me your fighting the change that will happen beyond your lifetime.

Certainly....if it's the will of the people. If in 50-75 years Congress is able to Amend the Constitution to more socialist/communistic approaches because that's what the people want then that is that....as long as they go all the way and re-name the country while they're at it because at that point it's no longer America.

But that has been a bone of contention in my eyes especially when considering a lot of the social issues of today. The minority has been controlling the majority.....by barking louder and making more noise. So as long as the minority in Congress isn't dictating the disintegration into socialism and it's 'truly' where the public wants to take it....then, one HAS to allow it to happen. Sadly, I can envision these next couple generations believing that is a viable path.....and that's just a failure of our culture, parenting, leadership when that happens.
Without Faith.....Without Hope.....There can be No Peace of Mind

Offline Stadler

  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 28089
  • Gender: Male
  • Pointing out the "unfunny" since 2017!
Re: The 2020 Election Thread
« Reply #119 on: January 07, 2019, 01:23:28 PM »
I see a major difference between Trump and AOC. She's still young enough to be idealistic. At her core I think she really wants to help people, even if she's misguided about how to do it.

Completely agree with that. 100%  I'm just massively concerned over (2) things when it comes to her. She freely admits to Socialist/Communist ideologies being acceptable or the 'way' she'd go about doing things. And, the fact that she's still popular and celebrated while not hiding her belief in this is startling and scary to me.

Sure, right now it's just 'her' with these ideas and desired approach to governing America but next thing you know there's three of 'her' in Congress.....then ten....then twenty. Next thing you know 10-15 years from now there's an entire openly Socialist wing of Congress that is set on changing the Fundamental Fabric of the US Constitution.

This is not how I envision America personally but that's just me.  If our county were to start electing these people and moving in that direction, at least it will be by the will of the American people.  I can accept that even if it's not my view.

Personally, I think a lot of her popularity is because she's relatable in a political environment that mostly otherwise is not.

Can I ask what you guys are most afraid on in regards to the "socialist ideologies" you see coming down the road? I really don't see anyone asking for anything other than adult education and healthcare (and a few people that mention UBI).
- Military
- Medicare
- Medicaid
- Social Security
- NASA
- Public Parks
- K-12 Education
- FEMA
- Libraries
- Police
- Fire Departments
- Voting
- The FDA
- The EPA
- Department of Traffic
- Public Attorneys
- Sewage Treatment
- Highways
- The VA
- Public Transportation


I guess I just don't get the "socialism" argument. We already have a ton of programs. Everything in the list above does great things for our society. Why would we not want as much education and health on that list as we can get?

I'm not sure you mean me, here, because I'm not "afraid", per se.  Ultimately, I'm with Cram, in that if the will of the people says it is so, then I put my faith in the institution that it's the right thing to do.   Like Gary, though, it can't be a result of bullying and shaming, which is unfortunately how a lot of policies are implemented today.

Having said that, there is a difference between a fundamentally capitalist environment with a social contract to take care of those that can't, and a fundamentally socialist environment that has a distinct minority determine what the vast majority of us do or do not "need".   You might say the difference is that between "socialist" - resembling "socialism" - and Socialism - BEING "socialism".   I don't at all consider Social Security to be "socialism" per se, since to a large degree the program pays out to the individual that pays in (and to a large degree, to the extent they've paid in). It's not dollar for dollar, but the difference isn't a transfer payment and isn't waste.  It's efficiency.   I don't even consider universal healthcare to be socialism in the strict sense of the word, since at least here in the States, there is a significant "need" component (it's as much safety net as it is government institution) and it's not characterized by State ownership of the supply chain.  Where we get into a grey area is when we start to talk about the allocation of funds to pay for them.  If we have a reasonably progressive tax regime, but still consistent with free market economics (including adherence to the principles of the Laffer Curve) then that's not really socialism.

But when you start to sever the ties of private ownership, and start to bring institutions that would otherwise perform well under capitalist conditions (this takes military and police/fire out of the equation) in under government control you're starting to cross lines that I believe shouldn't be crossed, at least not without a LOT more forethought than we currently give these considerations.   There are at least controls and checks and balances against corporate malfeasance, but what would be the recourse under a socialist government?   The vote?   How does that work in China? 

Put in a shorter, more direct way, I think the difference is when you shift from government programs meant to help those that can't help themselves (but still allow those that can a matter of market choice) to where the government effectively assumes control of capital at the earning stage and determines the best way of allocating (or reallocating) that wealth unilaterally.  Taxing even the most wealthy at 70% rates is most certainly the latter. 
« Last Edit: January 07, 2019, 01:36:29 PM by Stadler »

Offline Chino

  • Be excellent to each other.
  • DT.net Veteran
  • ****
  • Posts: 23448
  • Gender: Male
Re: The 2020 Election Thread
« Reply #120 on: January 07, 2019, 01:27:25 PM »
We'd still have public options. I mean, if even associate degrees were made available to tax funds, people would still opt not to do that can go to a private university instead. And I would hope that if we ever did implement a universal healthcare system, there'd still be a public option like there is in Canada.

Offline Stadler

  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 28089
  • Gender: Male
  • Pointing out the "unfunny" since 2017!
Re: The 2020 Election Thread
« Reply #121 on: January 07, 2019, 01:34:59 PM »
I see a major difference between Trump and AOC. She's still young enough to be idealistic. At her core I think she really wants to help people, even if she's misguided about how to do it.

Completely agree with that. 100%  I'm just massively concerned over (2) things when it comes to her. She freely admits to Socialist/Communist ideologies being acceptable or the 'way' she'd go about doing things. And, the fact that she's still popular and celebrated while not hiding her belief in this is startling and scary to me.

Sure, right now it's just 'her' with these ideas and desired approach to governing America but next thing you know there's three of 'her' in Congress.....then ten....then twenty. Next thing you know 10-15 years from now there's an entire openly Socialist wing of Congress that is set on changing the Fundamental Fabric of the US Constitution.

I'm curious to know what her openly socialist and communist ideologies are?  Honestly, I've heard nothing of the sort - she doesn't get a lot of press up here - so I'm curious to know what (other than jacking up the marginal personal tax rates) they are?  I just looked at her 2018 election page, and here are her platform topics:

Medicare For All
Housing As a Human Right
A Peace Economy
A Federal Jobs Guarantee
Gun Control / Assault Weapons Ban
Criminal Justice Reform, End Private Prisons
Immigration Justice / Abolish ICE
Solidarity with Puerto Rico
Mobilizing Against Climate Change
Clean Campaign Finance
Higher Education / Trade School for All
Women's Rights
Support LGBTQIA+
Support Seniors
Curb Wall Street Gambling: Restore Glass Steagall

The devil is in the details, of course, but there are components of socialism in all of the bolded, it just depends on how that plan is implemented.  You're a very smart, very aware man, so if I tell you I'm for "higher education/trade school for all", your spider sense should  tingle and you should be thinking that "they can't possibly mean the same thing".   And we don't.   I think there should very much be opportunity for anyone to pursue higher education and/or trade school regardless of what their economic station is.   Having said that, I would NOT be jacking up taxes and reallocating wealth under the guise of simply making the programs free to everyone.   That's just one example.

Offline gmillerdrake

  • Proud Father.....Blessed Husband
  • DTF.org Member
  • *
  • Posts: 15804
  • Gender: Male
  • 1 Timothy 2:5
Re: The 2020 Election Thread
« Reply #122 on: January 07, 2019, 01:36:48 PM »
Medicare For All  - Who's paying for that? Oh, the 'Rich'. The same 'Rich' that already pay 90% of the Taxes collected today
Housing As a Human Right  - Is it? Why should it be? Who's paying for that? I'm sympathetic to the need and 'I' do my part to contribute to charities and outreaches but having a house or 'things' is not a right
A Peace Economy - Huh?
A Federal Jobs Guarantee  - Haven't read what she means by this but I know what it sounds like. Sounds like more of the 'it ain't fair' angle
Gun Control / Assault Weapons Ban - No need to rehash this. It's been done 1000x in here
Criminal Justice Reform, End Private Prisons  -  Would be curios to know more about this. Our prison system sucks and it needs to be reformed. Starting with limiting appeals for 1st degree murderers and death sentences being implemented within 3 years of sentencing...not 30 years
Immigration Justice / Abolish ICE  - Abolishing ICE? What a surprise  :lol  Immigration is a huge issue that shouldn't be. If we executed the laws that were already on the books there'd be no issues....and penalize Sanctuary cities.
Solidarity with Puerto Rico  - Outside of making them the 51st state what else should we do?
Mobilizing Against Climate Change  - Totally down with this but Until the rest of the world is serious why should America take the hit?
Clean Campaign Finance  - Campaign finance laws are a joke. I'd be completely supportive of massive restrictions
Higher Education / Trade School for All - Free? Then no.
Women's Rights  -  Good golly....this still? This has been going on for 20+ years and is still making headway.
Support LGBTQIA+  -  More than what is being done now? What else is there left to do? This is everywhere.
Support Seniors  -  Who doesn't want this?
Curb Wall Street Gambling: Restore Glass Steagall  - We all know this isn't happening anytime soon



Without Faith.....Without Hope.....There can be No Peace of Mind

Offline Stadler

  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 28089
  • Gender: Male
  • Pointing out the "unfunny" since 2017!
Re: The 2020 Election Thread
« Reply #123 on: January 07, 2019, 01:41:57 PM »
We'd still have public options. I mean, if even associate degrees were made available to tax funds, people would still opt not to do that can go to a private university instead. And I would hope that if we ever did implement a universal healthcare system, there'd still be a public option like there is in Canada.

The devil is in the details.   If taxes are so high - 70% - to pay for all this, it effectively precludes the public option as a reasonable alternative.   My kid has been in private schools her whole K-12.  The SINGLE biggest hurdle - intellectually - for me was the idea of paying exorbitant taxes in towns like Glastonbury and not availing myself of that benefit.   Knock on wood, it's seeming like we made the right decision, but still, it's a consideration.

Offline El Barto

  • Rascal Atheistic Pig
  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 25654
  • Bad Craziness
Re: The 2020 Election Thread
« Reply #124 on: January 07, 2019, 01:45:00 PM »
I see a major difference between Trump and AOC. She's still young enough to be idealistic. At her core I think she really wants to help people, even if she's misguided about how to do it. Trump cares about himself and nothing else. While some of his hare-brained notions might trickle down to benefit others, that's usually the result of it being directed at him, or an effort to embiggen his own ego. The one criticism I haven't heard about AOC is that she's only doing this for herself. I can't fathom that there's anybody alive, even his family, that could say he's doing it for anybody but himself.

As for which is better, I suppose it's up to the individual to figure out if a generally altruistic youngster is better than a self-serving old man.

And to me, while process matters, it can't be determined without at least an understanding of what the outcome is.   If the self-serving old man is a surgeon with a god-complex who wants to prove how great he is by grafting zebra hearts into fetuses in order to give them cancer immunity (and thereby saving millions of lives), I'll take that over the altruistic youngster who believes they are benefitting mankind by installing a urine-based drinking water system.   

I have made no bones about economics being my key driver, and that allows me to overlook a lot of Trump's shenanigans (and reject someone I think is actually a decent, honest, kind human being, Sanders) because I believe that economic strength is the predicate for all else.  We can't have social equality without first being strong economically (or at least it becomes easier).  We can't have effective outcomes in healthcare and education (two things AO-C talked about with Anderson Cooper last night) without first being strong economically.  We cannot hope to negotiate with China or Russia without first being strong economically.  We cannot even begin to combat global warming without first being strong economically.   

Tapping out our wealthiest people at 70% tax rates is not going to give us that.  Reallocating funds to a cadillac healthcare system, without fundamentally fixing the waste and excess of that infrastructure is not going to give us that.   Opening our borders, dissolving ICE, and letting the chips fall where they may is not going to give us that.   

The idealism of Gene and Paul in NYC was awesome, and led to some great entertainment, but I didn't have to pay for it (either in terms of money or consequences).  If AO-C wants to tweet her day, that's awesome (sincerely) and a fresh way of looking at things, but I don't have to pay for that (either in terms of money or consequences).   When you start fucking around with the $20 trillion economy that is the lynchpin of the global economy, and might perhaps be considered the primary defense against a Chinese domination of the world, well, guess what; the idealism gets tarnished, because now I DO have to pay for that, if not monetarily (I have no doubt that as funds get scarce, I'll magically become the "tippy top" at least in terms of her funding source) then certainly consequentially.   

And yes, I'm conscious of the irony of basically accusing the outspoken idealist of having too narrow a scope of interest.
Despite the bitching and moaning of the current self-serving brain surgeon and chief, we live under a government with numerous checks and balances. Both of these potential players are limited in what they can do via numerous safeguards. AOC isn't going to up and turn us into the Socialist States of America any more than Grabby is going to turn us into the made-up world of Wally and the Beav. Lots of people have grandiose ideas, and every once in a while one of them pans out. Rarely much more. Personally, given the low success rate of any of their endeavors, I'd prefer the one that at least wants something better for me.
Argument, the presentation of reasonable views, never makes headway against conviction, and conviction takes no part in argument because it knows.
E.F. Benson

Offline El Barto

  • Rascal Atheistic Pig
  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 25654
  • Bad Craziness
Re: The 2020 Election Thread
« Reply #125 on: January 07, 2019, 01:48:27 PM »
I see a major difference between Trump and AOC. She's still young enough to be idealistic. At her core I think she really wants to help people, even if she's misguided about how to do it.

Completely agree with that. 100%  I'm just massively concerned over (2) things when it comes to her. She freely admits to Socialist/Communist ideologies being acceptable or the 'way' she'd go about doing things. And, the fact that she's still popular and celebrated while not hiding her belief in this is startling and scary to me.

Sure, right now it's just 'her' with these ideas and desired approach to governing America but next thing you know there's three of 'her' in Congress.....then ten....then twenty. Next thing you know 10-15 years from now there's an entire openly Socialist wing of Congress that is set on changing the Fundamental Fabric of the US Constitution.
If your timeframe plays out, there's a wing in congress. That's still not enough to change the fabric of society. Now, 50-75 years perhaps there's a majority, but such is the nature of social progress. If it reflects the will of the people then that's what's warranted, is it not? Seems to me your fighting the change that will happen beyond your lifetime.

Certainly....if it's the will of the people. If in 50-75 years Congress is able to Amend the Constitution to more socialist/communistic approaches because that's what the people want then that is that....as long as they go all the way and re-name the country while they're at it because at that point it's no longer America.

But that has been a bone of contention in my eyes especially when considering a lot of the social issues of today. The minority has been controlling the majority.....by barking louder and making more noise. So as long as the minority in Congress isn't dictating the disintegration into socialism and it's 'truly' where the public wants to take it....then, one HAS to allow it to happen. Sadly, I can envision these next couple generations believing that is a viable path.....and that's just a failure of our culture, parenting, leadership when that happens.
LOL. We'd have had to change the name of this country 20 times over. We have little in common with the America of 100 years ago, and far less with the America created in the 1700s. But I'm game. We can have a reality show every 20 years to vote on a new name for us. I'm already casting my vote for Bonerland.

And the constitution has nothing to do with making us a marginally capitalist country, and needs no amendment to slide us into the marginally socialist camp, not that that's happening.
Argument, the presentation of reasonable views, never makes headway against conviction, and conviction takes no part in argument because it knows.
E.F. Benson

Offline axeman90210

  • Official Minister of Awesome, and Veronica knows my name!
  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 12590
  • Gender: Male
  • Never go full Nick
Re: The 2020 Election Thread
« Reply #126 on: January 07, 2019, 01:56:48 PM »
Tapping out our wealthiest people at 70% tax rates is not going to give us that. 

Took a quick look, so apologies that these aren't properly fact checked, but looking at the US's best 20 years of GDP growth and the top marginal tax rates for those years, the minimum rate was 50%, the max was 94%, and the mean, median and mode were 78.5%, 80%, and a tie between 70% and 90%
Photobucket sucks.

Offline Adami

  • Moderator of awesomeness
  • *
  • Posts: 32125
Re: The 2020 Election Thread
« Reply #127 on: January 07, 2019, 02:57:30 PM »
https://nypost.com/2019/01/04/ocasio-cortez-proposes-massive-tax-hike-on-the-wealthy/

Love it.  Awesome.   Welcome to four more years of Donald Trump. Unlike most, I don't think she's an idiot; I think she's pretty smart, just not on economics.  This is more an indication of someone simply being drunk on national power and celebrity.   "Hey someone is listening to me!  I'm going to say something interesting to keep them listening!"

Someone ask Mick Jagger, Jimmy Page, Elton John, Brian May, etc. how that worked for Britain.   NYC certainly loved it, as did France.

I don't think she's an idiot either. That being said I disagree with 99.9% of everything she said and she scares me for some reason. I really see no difference between her and trump other than age and gender. Both say stupid shit not supported by facts.

I bet Ocasio hasn't openly bragged about sexually assaulting other humanbeings, or opened universities to scam people out of money, or set up a bogus cancer charity to funnel money to other shell companies, or used property in NYC to launder money for the Russian mob.

That's the problem with our black/white, all/nothing thinking. If they're not amazing and saintly, then they're no different than Trump. We have no sense of degrees anymore. Even on here, people like Old Man Stads have shunned the idea of degrees being important. Bad is bad. Good is good. All or nothing.


Edit: That was a little hyperbolic, and I'm aware of the irony in what I said.

That's not entirely true, though.  I'm a big fan of "degrees", if the alternative is "black and white".  I just push back on either one being used as the defense for doing neither (if that makes sense).  What I mean is, I think there's an incredibly high degree of "Trump said it? Must be wrong!"   Why?  "Oh, he's the most <insert perjorative> in the history of man".   It's like the implicit understanding HAS to be that "he's BAD!" and whatever rationale or reasoning that follows to that is the one we're going to go with.   The fact is, degree DOES matter, and in almost all ways, he's the Nigel Tufnel of politics (if I have to explain that, you should perhaps reassess your presence on a Dream Theater forum).   That's not in and of itself a bad thing.

Oh I agree, but that's not what I'm talking about. I'm more referring to the idea that none of this is new or different, just more of the same, but to a different degree. That heavily implies that degree doesn't matter. That politicians who aren't honest or are self-serving are equal to Trump and that lying is the same, no matter the lie or severity.
fanticide.bandcamp.com

Offline TAC

  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 49033
  • Gender: Male
  • Kip Rolled
Re: The 2020 Election Thread
« Reply #128 on: January 07, 2019, 06:16:13 PM »


Reagan... Obama... we've got a history of not demanding proven battle (metaphorically) experience in our leadership.  Look, not a knock on him, because as much as I disagree with him politically, I have a tremendous respect for the way Barack Obama rose to the occasion, but he was a charismatic figure that many Americans took a chance on (not, ironically, that much different than Trump if you think about it; not so ironically?  The big loser in both cases was the far more experienced candidate, Hillary Clinton).


Agree totally.
would have thought the same thing but seeing the OP was TAC i immediately thought Maiden or DT related
Winger Theater Forums................or WTF.  ;D

Offline XeRocks81

  • Posts: 1020
  • Gender: Male
Re: The 2020 Election Thread
« Reply #129 on: January 07, 2019, 07:18:20 PM »
Yes Obama had a certain charismatic appeal but he was also professorial and academic in a way Trump is absolutely not and could never be.

Offline TAC

  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 49033
  • Gender: Male
  • Kip Rolled
Re: The 2020 Election Thread
« Reply #130 on: January 07, 2019, 07:22:19 PM »
Yes Obama had a certain charismatic appeal but he was also professorial and academic in a way Trump is absolutely not and could never be.

True, but I think many viewed Trump at least as a guy who "did stuff". He was a business man. I think that appealed to people who voted. I think they bought the whole "I'm successful in the private sector, I will fight and be successful for America".

Obama won on charisma and color.
would have thought the same thing but seeing the OP was TAC i immediately thought Maiden or DT related
Winger Theater Forums................or WTF.  ;D

Offline Adami

  • Moderator of awesomeness
  • *
  • Posts: 32125
Re: The 2020 Election Thread
« Reply #131 on: January 07, 2019, 07:45:00 PM »
No president has won on two things.

It'd be like saying Trump won on charisma and hatred. He won because a decent amount of people thought he would improve the country.

Obama won because a decent amount of people thought he would improve the country. Also because my guys in the Illuminati wanted a pawn to help destroy the moral fabric of society mwahahahaa.
fanticide.bandcamp.com

Offline TAC

  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 49033
  • Gender: Male
  • Kip Rolled
Re: The 2020 Election Thread
« Reply #132 on: January 07, 2019, 07:53:39 PM »
It'd be like saying Trump won on charisma and hatred. He won because a decent amount of people thought he would improve the country.

Obama won because a decent amount of people thought he would improve the country. 

Of course. But Trump won on hatred too. Of Hillary.

would have thought the same thing but seeing the OP was TAC i immediately thought Maiden or DT related
Winger Theater Forums................or WTF.  ;D

Offline Adami

  • Moderator of awesomeness
  • *
  • Posts: 32125
Re: The 2020 Election Thread
« Reply #133 on: January 07, 2019, 07:55:15 PM »
It'd be like saying Trump won on charisma and hatred. He won because a decent amount of people thought he would improve the country.

Obama won because a decent amount of people thought he would improve the country. 

Of course. But Trump won on hatred too. Of Hillary.

True, and hatred of anything that invokes fear.
fanticide.bandcamp.com

Offline TAC

  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 49033
  • Gender: Male
  • Kip Rolled
Re: The 2020 Election Thread
« Reply #134 on: January 07, 2019, 07:57:38 PM »
You fear what you don't trust.
would have thought the same thing but seeing the OP was TAC i immediately thought Maiden or DT related
Winger Theater Forums................or WTF.  ;D

Offline Adami

  • Moderator of awesomeness
  • *
  • Posts: 32125
Re: The 2020 Election Thread
« Reply #135 on: January 07, 2019, 08:03:42 PM »
You fear what you don't trust.

Not always. I don't trust Stadler to be correct about anything, but I don't fear him.

I always trust Hef, but he strikes fear into my deepest heart.
fanticide.bandcamp.com

Offline TAC

  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 49033
  • Gender: Male
  • Kip Rolled
Re: The 2020 Election Thread
« Reply #136 on: January 07, 2019, 08:10:35 PM »
Alrighty then.
would have thought the same thing but seeing the OP was TAC i immediately thought Maiden or DT related
Winger Theater Forums................or WTF.  ;D

Offline Adami

  • Moderator of awesomeness
  • *
  • Posts: 32125
Re: The 2020 Election Thread
« Reply #137 on: January 07, 2019, 08:18:33 PM »
I get it, people didn't trust Hillary. And I think, on a very surface level, that played a big role.


But Trump, at no point, came across as more trustworthy than her. But he focused on why other people are making things bad for people like you and me. People like that message. It gives them a sense of power. They want to punish those people. Obama, Clintons, Democrats, immigrants, LGBT, etc. It's worked time after time throughout history. Trump played it like a textbook case. He pointed the American people at exactly who to hate and he won.

People thought that if we truly punish all of those people (in various forms, and to various degrees) America, and our lives, would improve significantly.
fanticide.bandcamp.com

Offline TAC

  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 49033
  • Gender: Male
  • Kip Rolled
Re: The 2020 Election Thread
« Reply #138 on: January 07, 2019, 08:30:44 PM »
Well, personally speaking, I never really got that message. I never viewed his message as a message of hate.

To me, the appeal of Trump was that he painted himself as a stronger figure. I think he was effective at that.

We know Trump was an asshole. There was an honesty about his "asshole-ness" that was not present with Hillary.
would have thought the same thing but seeing the OP was TAC i immediately thought Maiden or DT related
Winger Theater Forums................or WTF.  ;D

Offline Adami

  • Moderator of awesomeness
  • *
  • Posts: 32125
Re: The 2020 Election Thread
« Reply #139 on: January 07, 2019, 08:35:18 PM »
It's also more subtle and almost subliminal (for lack of a better word). No one wants to own the word hate. So even those that did buy into it will mask it under a bunch of other stuff because, as I said, no one wants to own the word hate.
fanticide.bandcamp.com