Poll

How do you exactly like / dislike the song?

I like the song as a whole
91 (59.9%)
I dislike the song as a whole
16 (10.5%)
I like the main part. I dislike the solo section. I like the outro
25 (16.4%)
I dislike the main part. I like the solo section AND the outro
9 (5.9%)
I like the main part. I dislike the solo section AND the outro
2 (1.3%)
I dislike the main part. I like the solo section. I dislike the outro
7 (4.6%)
I only like the outro, I dislike the rest
2 (1.3%)

Total Members Voted: 152

Author Topic: The Ministry of the Lost Souls - an in depth survey  (Read 2031 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline MirrorMask

  • Posts: 7286
  • Gender: Male
The Ministry of the Lost Souls - an in depth survey
« on: December 22, 2018, 01:26:18 AM »
So, to not derail further the discussion in the new album thread, and just to discuss what I defined the symbol of all the contrasting opinions on DT, what's your exact opinion of The Ministry of Lost Souls? the poll options say it all, tell us in detail what's your opinion on the song!

I also pick up this from the other thread:

Sometimes I wonder if the instrumental section to TMOLS was written because the band didn't want to have another ballad in the album so close to Repentance. (Edit: It seems Repentance was written last, but maybe it was already considered? Whathever just a thought)

Literally, the instrumental section feels so disconnected to the rest of the song, if you showed it to someone who hasn't heard the song, there's no way that person would've known it was actually a balladesque song in disguise.

The song up until the instrumental begins is roughly 6:30 minutes, way more than most ballads, and in this time it grows up pretty greatly up to its own climax, you could have a radio edit and cut it right there and it would have been a full song to me.

I don't know if it was done to balance more the album, but you hit the nail on the head for me about the issue with the song - a ballad that grows and grows in intensity, and climaxes at the "Do you remember me this time, even in death we gave you life"... there could have been there a more melodic solo and the ending reprise but no, there "had" to be a solo section that completely derails the song coming back to it only 5 minute later.

BTW, I made a not exactly radio edit, it's 8:30 minutes long, and it flows just fine for me completely removing the solo section.
I use my sig to pimp some bands from Italy! Check out Elvenking (Power / Folk metal), Folkstone (Rock / Medieval metal), Arcana Opera (Gothic/Noir/Heavy metal) and the beautiful voice of Elisa!

Offline SeRoX

  • DTF.org Offical Obsessed Member
  • DTF.org Member
  • *
  • Posts: 2078
  • Gender: Male
  • The VoiceMaster
    • James LaBrie
Re: The Ministry of the Lost Souls - an in depth survey
« Reply #1 on: December 22, 2018, 01:33:13 AM »
I thought I dislike the song as a whole and even think this song could be the most boring song DT has ever created. But when you put it like that I think I like the solo section.  As a whole, still boring.
Quote from: Plasmastrike
SeRoX is right!
Quote from: Nihil-Morari
SeRoX is DTF's JLB!
As usual, SeRoX is correct.

Offline erciccio

  • Posts: 219
Re: The Ministry of the Lost Souls - an in depth survey
« Reply #2 on: December 22, 2018, 01:59:17 AM »
I only like The outro but the option is not there.. :xbones
Ora che ho perso la vista,ci vedo di piý

Offline MirrorMask

  • Posts: 7286
  • Gender: Male
Re: The Ministry of the Lost Souls - an in depth survey
« Reply #3 on: December 22, 2018, 02:09:51 AM »
I only like The outro but the option is not there.. :xbones

Fixed it just for you in true Christmas spirit  :yarr
I use my sig to pimp some bands from Italy! Check out Elvenking (Power / Folk metal), Folkstone (Rock / Medieval metal), Arcana Opera (Gothic/Noir/Heavy metal) and the beautiful voice of Elisa!

Offline JiM-Xtreme

  • Posts: 420
  • Gender: Male
Re: The Ministry of the Lost Souls - an in depth survey
« Reply #4 on: December 22, 2018, 02:58:50 AM »
I like all of the individual parts, but to be totally honest if there is one DT song that outstays its welcome itís this one. It just doesnít do enough to justify its nearly 15 minute length for me.

Still, I picked the first option  ;D

Offline AboutToCrash

  • Posts: 145
Re: The Ministry of the Lost Souls - an in depth survey
« Reply #5 on: December 22, 2018, 04:38:49 AM »
After listening again I can say that I enjoy it for the most part.. some sections overstay their welcome and the instrumental break is a bit out of place but not overly detracting. 10-12 minutes wouldíve been perfect, I may actually try and cut a shorter version of it

Offline Ruba

  • Posts: 4120
  • Gender: Male
Re: The Ministry of the Lost Souls - an in depth survey
« Reply #6 on: December 22, 2018, 05:26:30 AM »
Well. As a whole I think it is a little bit too long, but there is nothing about it I actually dislike.
But if we use the bigger cart to put them in the corral, then that IS a cart being used as a cart, thus moving around the philosophical dilemma that TAC wasn't sure how to articulate. So the prime mover becomes us, and we become our own gods.

Offline krands85

  • Posts: 2299
  • Gender: Male
Re: The Ministry of the Lost Souls - an in depth survey
« Reply #7 on: December 22, 2018, 06:06:13 AM »
I love the whole song, it's a top 20 DT track for me. I really enjoy the contrast between the different parts of the song. The instrumental section is my favourite part, though that's not a particularly surprising thing for me ;D
Whoaaaahh, ohhh, ohhhhh. Whoaaaahh, ohhhhh, ohhhhhh. Waaah, ahhh, haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaowwwwww

Offline Another_Won

  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 871
  • Attest to the mighty river.Let the truth be heard!
Re: The Ministry of the Lost Souls - an in depth survey
« Reply #8 on: December 22, 2018, 06:38:27 AM »
Funny thing is that for a while after getting the album I didn't realize the solo was so great and skipped the song because I thought it was just a balad.  It was probably months later that it clicked with me and now I never skip it.

I really like the solo section, one of my favorites.  I do agree that it doesn't seem to fit, but I find that to be the case with alot of their music.  It's one of the primary reasons I like DT.  Their songs aren't boring because of this.  Once you get to know these type of songs they blend a bit better. I actually think now that the transition is just fine.

The outro blends so well into ITPoE.  If I'm just listening to TMotLS I have a hard time NOT letting it go to the next track.

If the rest of the song was a track on it's own, then I wouldn't like it much.  But that's not the point.  It is part of the song!  I can actually get through the song up to the solo section because I know it's coming.  I can think of quite a few songs (not just DT) that I like simply because of a section of it.  There is something to be said for letting the song build and set a mood.  Some of the hardest sections of music are preceded by slow passages and that gives the heavy part more impact.


Offline Pax

  • an operator acting on a Hilbert space
  • Posts: 195
  • Gender: Male
  • pianist and music theorist
Re: The Ministry of the Lost Souls - an in depth survey
« Reply #9 on: December 22, 2018, 06:48:47 AM »
I like the main part and solo, but not the outro, why is that option unavailable
!̸̶͚͖͖̩̻̩̗͍̮̙̈͊͛̈͒̍̐ͣͩ̋ͨ̓̊̌̈̊́̚͝͠ͅ ̷̧̢̛͖̤̟̺̫̗͚̗͖ͪ̏̔̔̒́ͥ̓ͫ̀ͤ̇ͥ͝ ̡̊͛̇F.F.Chopin!̸̶͚͖͖̩̻̩̗͍̮̙̈͊͛̈͒̍̐ͣͩ̋ͨ̓̊̌̈̊́̚͝͠ͅ ̷̧̢̛͖̤̟̺̫̗͚̗͖ͪ̏̔̔̒́ͥ̓ͫ̀ͤ̇ͥ͝ ̡̊͛̇

Offline Evermind

  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 11194
  • Gender: Male
Re: The Ministry of the Lost Souls - an in depth survey
« Reply #10 on: December 22, 2018, 06:55:19 AM »
One of the best DT songs, I like everything in it.

Offline Mladen

  • Posts: 12293
  • Gender: Male
Re: The Ministry of the Lost Souls - an in depth survey
« Reply #11 on: December 22, 2018, 08:19:34 AM »
It's perfect as it is.

Touching. Exciting. Complex.

Offline Podaar

  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 6750
  • Gender: Male
  • My wife is a cabriolet
Re: The Ministry of the Lost Souls - an in depth survey
« Reply #12 on: December 22, 2018, 09:05:49 AM »
It's perfect as it is.

Touching. Exciting. Complex.

Offline KevShmev

  • EZBoard Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 30002
  • Gender: Male
Re: The Ministry of the Lost Souls - an in depth survey
« Reply #13 on: December 22, 2018, 09:27:10 AM »
Good song overall, but one I rarely listen to.  It has some amazing moments, but it is so long and drags so much that it feels like work to get through the whole thing.

Online Kattelox

  • Heart of an Eagle
  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 7669
Re: The Ministry of the Lost Souls - an in depth survey
« Reply #14 on: December 22, 2018, 09:31:25 AM »
I don't revisit this song as much as I'd like to, but these days, I love it. I think it's one of the best songs on Systematic Chaos, possibly my favorite (as of 2018). It's aged much better than the rest of the album to me, and although I didn't enjoy it much early on, it was definitely a grower. I even enjoy the shreddy instrumental part now.
RYM || Last.FM
"No Christ, God, nor religion gave me the answers I was looking for" - Timo Tolkki

Online Lethean

  • Posts: 2214
Re: The Ministry of the Lost Souls - an in depth survey
« Reply #15 on: December 22, 2018, 11:59:07 AM »
It's perfect as it is.

Touching. Exciting. Complex.

Offline MirrorMask

  • Posts: 7286
  • Gender: Male
Re: The Ministry of the Lost Souls - an in depth survey
« Reply #16 on: December 23, 2018, 06:12:58 AM »
I'm glad and positively surprised that the vast majority said that they like the song, I figured from reading comments here and there that it was much more disliked!

I went and relistened to it yesterday, it's such a somber and melanchonic ballad. The beginning is grandiose, and works well in compilations (for example try to play As I Am and have the ending of the song going directly into this), James sings very well the verses and we have a little nice touch from JP doing backing vocals (We know Jordan can sing as well, I doubt it but I'd love for the new album if there's a mini Jordan backup vocal spot just like JP does in this song), and then the chorus is so haunting and mesmerizing.

The post chorus is the climax of the song in a sense - it continues from the buildup of the chorus, and then reaches that beautiful "Do you remember me this time, even in death I gave you life" part... chilling! then of course comes the (in?)famous long solo section, the reprise at the end is nice because of that little moment of only piano and vocals before kicking back in with the final chorus and then going into the long and melodic solo.

Brilliant, brilliant stuff, and it's a nice contrast to all the heavier, "in your face" moments of Systematic Chaos such as Constant Motion and The Dark Eternal Night.
I use my sig to pimp some bands from Italy! Check out Elvenking (Power / Folk metal), Folkstone (Rock / Medieval metal), Arcana Opera (Gothic/Noir/Heavy metal) and the beautiful voice of Elisa!

Offline DTA

  • Posts: 502
Re: The Ministry of the Lost Souls - an in depth survey
« Reply #17 on: December 23, 2018, 10:56:27 AM »
I like it for the most part, but I wish they had taken a different approach for the middle of the song. It wouldíve been nice to have an instrumental passage that retains the mood of the first half of the song. That would have been quite a different approach for them and made this song stand out a bit more. Itís basically Sacrificed Sons over again and neither are very memorable because of their bridge sections imo. Still, itís one of two songs from SC I havenít seen live so I wouldnít mind it in a setlist for that reason.

Offline Darkstarshades

  • Posts: 1045
Re: The Ministry of the Lost Souls - an in depth survey
« Reply #18 on: December 23, 2018, 10:59:35 AM »
I enjoy it too, never said it was bad
But there indeed appears to be an agreement of the song overstaying, and the reason for that is the theory that I still have: the pacing. It isn't a bad song by any means and the instrumental isn't bad, I just insist that at least for me, it feels disconnected.
Jatruccyundessgini

Offline MirrorMask

  • Posts: 7286
  • Gender: Male
Re: The Ministry of the Lost Souls - an in depth survey
« Reply #19 on: December 23, 2018, 11:36:09 AM »
I like it for the most part, but I wish they had taken a different approach for the middle of the song. It wouldíve been nice to have an instrumental passage that retains the mood of the first half of the song. That would have been quite a different approach for them and made this song stand out a bit more. Itís basically Sacrificed Sons over again and neither are very memorable because of their bridge sections imo.

It was a problem of those times...see also Endless Sacrifice, "We're telling you about the struggled of a long distance relationship, it weights heavy on both HEY HOW ABOUT A CIRCUS BREAK AND WE GET BACK TO THE COUPLE IN 5 MINUTES?"... that song, the two you mentioned, go completely out of the song and get back to it only 5 minutes later.

This is an issue for example I don't have with Metropolis - I'm sure many will disagree, but I think that as long as it is, the solo section of Metropolis stays in tune with the song and never goes off the rails. Or Final Tragedy's ending, which does not seem a different song than what came after. Luckily they corrected this in later album, the long passages are still there but they don't feel like a jam copied and pasted into the song.
I use my sig to pimp some bands from Italy! Check out Elvenking (Power / Folk metal), Folkstone (Rock / Medieval metal), Arcana Opera (Gothic/Noir/Heavy metal) and the beautiful voice of Elisa!

Offline Darkstarshades

  • Posts: 1045
Re: The Ministry of the Lost Souls - an in depth survey
« Reply #20 on: December 23, 2018, 11:39:42 AM »
The extensive middle instrumental section is a huge problem when trying to show someone that song, I'm usually like "yes this is a song about distant relationships" and the person hears it, says it's cool, but then the instrumental kicks in and 3 minutes later it's like "why is it taking so long?"

But still, I don't have the issue I have with TMOLS when hearing Endless or Sacrificed sons, but I get the main point.
Jatruccyundessgini

Offline Mladen

  • Posts: 12293
  • Gender: Male
Re: The Ministry of the Lost Souls - an in depth survey
« Reply #21 on: December 23, 2018, 01:23:56 PM »
Whatever the instrumental section tries to symbolize and however you interpret it, I think it can be argued that it's introduced much more elegantly and the flow is significantly smoother in comparison to Sacrificed songs or Endless sacrifice . It also contains some truly memorable solos and unisons as well.

Offline TAC

  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 34853
  • Gender: Male
  • Just a decent, normal metal-head fellow
Re: The Ministry of the Lost Souls - an in depth survey
« Reply #22 on: December 23, 2018, 02:35:56 PM »
Whatever the instrumental section tries to symbolize and however you interpret it, I think it can be argued that it's introduced much more elegantly and the flow is significantly smoother in comparison to Sacrificed songs or Endless sacrifice . It also contains some truly memorable solos and unisons as well.

I agree, M.

I love the song, and I find it very well done. My only gripe is that the ending drags a bit. But that's a small beef.
would have thought the same thing but seeing the OP was TAC i immediately thought Maiden or DT related
Winger Theater Forums................or WTF.  ;D

Offline The Presence of Frenemies

  • Posts: 788
  • Gender: Male
Re: The Ministry of the Lost Souls - an in depth survey
« Reply #23 on: December 23, 2018, 09:28:40 PM »
I love the whole thing except for the part between when JLB cuts out and the main JP solo (the palm-muted riffs and keyboard stuff, basically). That doesn't do anything for me. The solo->unison->back to vocals part is great though, and I love the vocal sections & outro. One of my favorite DT songs in spite of the parts I don't like.
Yeah, I have no idea what the cakeless person in that analogy is meant to be eating. If he's got some sort of cake substitute, it should really have been worked into the narrative at some point. As it stands, the options are:

  • Hoard a cake just to stare blankly into its doughy edifice.
  • Make futile chewing motions with your mouth while starving to death.

Online PetFish

  • Posts: 1341
  • Gender: Male
Re: The Ministry of the Lost Souls - an in depth survey
« Reply #24 on: December 23, 2018, 09:41:56 PM »
My only gripe is how it starts with an volume-to-11 ear smash.  I really don't like any songs that start this way but this one hits way harder for some reason.

My own edit has the first 1:02 removed completely so it starts gently and then builds up.

Offline Kyo

  • Myung at Heart
  • Posts: 350
  • Gender: Male
    • Official Relocator website
Re: The Ministry of the Lost Souls - an in depth survey
« Reply #25 on: December 24, 2018, 02:59:28 AM »
My only gripe is how it starts with an volume-to-11 ear smash.  I really don't like any songs that start this way but this one hits way harder for some reason.

Yeah, it's annoying on the CD. Not a problem with the HD Tracks master!
"Freedom in the 21st Century means being incommunicado."


Offline Mladen

  • Posts: 12293
  • Gender: Male
Re: The Ministry of the Lost Souls - an in depth survey
« Reply #26 on: December 24, 2018, 04:01:56 AM »
It kind of hits you right over the head the second Prophets of war ends. I always thought that was kind of cool.

Offline MirrorMask

  • Posts: 7286
  • Gender: Male
Re: The Ministry of the Lost Souls - an in depth survey
« Reply #27 on: December 24, 2018, 04:20:10 AM »
It kind of hits you right over the head the second Prophets of war ends. I always thought that was kind of cool.

Of course it's cool! as I said try to have As I Am right before this song, see how cool it plays out  :coolio
I use my sig to pimp some bands from Italy! Check out Elvenking (Power / Folk metal), Folkstone (Rock / Medieval metal), Arcana Opera (Gothic/Noir/Heavy metal) and the beautiful voice of Elisa!

Offline Destiny Of Chaos

  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 12849
  • Gender: Male
Re: The Ministry of the Lost Souls - an in depth survey
« Reply #28 on: December 24, 2018, 08:10:21 AM »
This song, along with its album cohort In The Presence of Enemies immediately found a spot on my all time DT top 10 list and will probably always be there. Sure the instrumental piece doesn't need to be there, but it is awesome, and is quintessential just like Sacrificed Sons, Endless Sacrifice and Metropolis.   

Offline Ben_Jamin

  • Posts: 8810
  • Gender: Male
  • Do a nice one for grandma
Re: The Ministry of the Lost Souls - an in depth survey
« Reply #29 on: December 24, 2018, 10:14:37 AM »
It kind of hits you right over the head the second Prophets of war ends. I always thought that was kind of cool.

Of course it's cool! as I said try to have As I Am right before this song, see how cool it plays out  :coolio

Its sounds awesome played after About To Crash(Reprise) as well.
I don't know how they can be so proud of winning with them odds. - Little Big Man

I Love You...Poppin Fresh

Offline JayOctavarium

  • I used to be a whorejerk
  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 9226
  • Gender: Male
  • But then I took a Hef to the knee...
Re: The Ministry of the Lost Souls - an in depth survey
« Reply #30 on: December 24, 2018, 10:58:07 AM »
I love every aspect of this song. Probably top 20 for me. I'd be tickled pink if I ever got to see it live.
I just don't understand what they were trying to achieve with any part of the song, either individually or as a whole. You know what? It's the Platypus of Dream Theater songs. That bill doesn't go with that tail, or that strange little furry body, or those webbed feet, and oh god why does it have venomous spurs!? And then you find out it lays eggs too. The difference is that the Platypus is somehow functional despite being a crazy mishmash or leftover animal pieces

-BlobVanDam on "Scarred"

Offline Peter Mc

  • Posts: 413
Re: The Ministry of the Lost Souls - an in depth survey
« Reply #31 on: December 24, 2018, 12:05:02 PM »
Always liked this song, especially the outro solo. The instrumental section is awesome but is totally self-indulgent and unnecessary to anyone who isnít a fan of prog self indulgence. Luckily most DT fans are so itís cool but if you played the song to anyone else they would literally be like wtf is the point of this?

Offline pg1067

  • Posts: 2487
  • Gender: Male
Re: The Ministry of the Lost Souls - an in depth survey
« Reply #32 on: December 24, 2018, 01:15:12 PM »
Bottom 5-10 DT song for me.
"There's a bass solo in a song called Metropolis where I do a bass solo."  John Myung

Offline jammindude

  • Posts: 9345
  • Gender: Male
    • The Jammin Dude Show
Re: The Ministry of the Lost Souls - an in depth survey
« Reply #33 on: December 24, 2018, 03:36:24 PM »
Just listening to this for the first time in probably 5 or 6 years.   

First off, it's much better than I remember, and is now solidly on my extremely short list of "songs that just barely redeem SC"

Second, I didn't find the instrumental section out of place at all.  I almost had to replay it just so I could try and figure out what everyone was talking about.   But it feels to me like around the 6 min mark, the energy starts ramping up, making the transition into the instrumental section a totally natural progression. 

Pretty cool tune.   Still hate PoW and the second half of ITPOE.    :angel:
"Better the pride that resides in a citizen of the world.
Than the pride that divides when a colorful rag is unfurled." - Neil Peart

The Jammin Dude Show - https://www.youtube.com/user/jammindude

Offline Phoenix87x

  • From the ashes
  • Posts: 6371
  • The Phoenix shall rise
Re: The Ministry of the Lost Souls - an in depth survey
« Reply #34 on: December 24, 2018, 04:34:47 PM »
Just listened to it for the first time in over 9 years. That kind of says it all right there. But anyway, I don't dislike it. I don't love it, but just like it.

There's better songs on SC and there are worse songs. Ministry falls somewhere in the middle for me.