Does Dream Theater still have to innovate?

[RoeDent]

Just reading some comments from reviews on the D/T thread, and this question comes to my mind:

14 albums and 30 years into their career, does Dream Theater really still have to innovate and push the boundaries of progressive metal in order for the album to be well-received? They are by far and away the most influential prog metal band ever. I feel like the songs should just be appreciated for what they are rather than "is this genre-defining?" or whatever nonsensical caveats people put in the way of their enjoyment of music.

[senecadawg2]

They've certainly proven themselves by now and definitely shouldn't have to innovate in order for an album to be well received. As an example, I don't think ADTOE was particularly innovative, but I loved it and still consider it better than The Astonishing, where they clearly pushed their boundaries more.

Ask any artist at all though, including the guys in DT, and I suspect they'd tell you they still want to innovate, at least to a certain extent, so I don't think it's an unreasonable standard to judge new material against.

[MirrorMask]

Just to put more into perspective the discussion: which other bands do you feel accomplish this? it can work for any genre - prog, classic metal or classic rock, more specific sub-genres like symphonic, folk or whatever... which band puts out a new album and makes you think "wow, here's why, once again, they prove themselves to be the masters and the other bands of the same genre are merely the followers"?

[Ninjabait]

Well, I don't think they necessarily HAVE to do anything at this point. I think it's more that they WANT to continuously push the boundaries of their own artistic voice and the "prog metal sound" rather than do the ACDC thing and release the same album 14 times. Which is perfectly fine, everyone from Miles Davis to Igor Stravinsky to Taylor Swift have changed their style several times during their career. I think they're just doing what they want

[bosk1]

Do they "have to?"  Nope.  But do they still do things that are outside the box for them?  Yeah.  There is some stuff on this album that will definitely have people saying, "oh, wow.  I didn't expect that."  And that's cool.  They will never deviate far from their core sound that made them what they are.  But they always seem to want to try out different things, and I love that.

[Max Kuehnau]

My thoughts exactly. Couldn't have said it better myself. Thank you bosk.

[ThatOneGuy2112]

It's been made clear that with each album comes at least a slight revision to their core sound. TA sounds very little like DT12 for example, yet it isn't necessarily coming from them reinventing the genre or anything like that, but simply them exploring different musical avenues untouched by them thus far.

There are a few albums in their discography that I would consider to just be "DT by the numbers",  most of which have been well received. I think the guys are at a point in their career where they can put out 10 or so more albums in the same general style/vibe and still trust their core fans to stick with them all the way through. In that regard I think they're in a good spot.

I don't think "reinventing" or pushing the boundaries of the prog metal genre should fall on them anymore. They've been around long enough to be well respected and revered as pioneers, but I think the ones to take the genre to new places will be the younger, newer groups.

[Mark Levinson Jr.]

I don't think "reinventing" or pushing the boundaries of the prog metal genre should fall on them anymore. They've been around long enough to be well respected and revered as pioneers, but I think the ones to take the genre to new places will be the younger, newer groups.

This seems to be a good way of putting it. The band might even agree with this. From interviews, it seems that many of them are "wow'ed" by the latest crop of prog-metal bands.

[gzarruk]

They don't need to, they're Dream freaking Theater. They pretty much built this genere from scratch, that's THEIR sound. I don't get why some people complain when DT still sound like DT. To me, they have nothing to prove and I'm very grateful to them for still releasing new material so long into their career. Most bands don't make it to 30+ years, and from the ones that do, a lot just go out and play their classic hits and pretty much ignore their new material (if they have new material to begin with).

DT have no need to reinvent the wheel every time they release an album.

[Dedalus]

It depends on the circumstances.

Some bands/artists can innovate in an extreme way, like Steven Wilson or Anathema. It is not and has never been the case with DT. However, we can't say that they have made the same album again and again and again. Their discography is varied and diverse.

Since they haven't done the same album ever, I don't think being innovative is something extremely vital to the band right now. It depends on the vibe they are in. And the last two albuns were kind of innovative, each in a way.

If they were like Neal Morse, I would have thought that a major change would be very important right now.

[Addy]

Nope, they don't have to. They did enough. Releasing good songs is everything people should expect from them.

[Pettor]

I honestly don't expect or require them to innovate. I like their sound and that has always been the main case for following them, not because I think they innovate. They change things up from album to album but it's still very much the Dream Theater sound with some level of experimentation here and there. I don't expect D/T to innovate but rather have great songs with some new fresh ideas and that will be more than enough. Dream Theater is still unique with their sound and I am happy anytime I get to hear more songs with that style

[the_silent_man]

I don't think they have to reinvent the wheel every time they put an album out, however I like that most of their albums are different to the one before and that keeps it interesting.
You know it's gonna sound like DT, but you don't know which side of them is going to show through each time:

WDADU -  Youthful
I&W - Energetic, upbeat
Awake - Dark, atmospheric
FII - Soulful, melodic
SFAM - Technical, conceptual
SDOIT - Experimental, epic
TOT - Heavy, epic
8VM - Streamlined, melodic
SC - Fun, fantasy
BCSL - Dark, epic
ADTOE - Proggy, story-telling
DT - Concise, balanced
Astonishing - Rock opera, melodic
DOT - Groovy, riffy (?)

[bosk1]

DOT - Groovy, riffy (?)

Eh...yeah, actually.  That fits.

[RoeDent]

Glad many of you are seeing sense. For what it's worth, I kinda started this thread in protest at the concept of "DT by numbers". Clearly, DT have their sound, but clearly judging by the posts here, that includes many varied things, and each album highlights a different aspect of the band's overall sound. If you think it's just DT by numbers, then you're not listening hard enough.

[bosk1]

For the record, I agree with Mr. Dent.

[fadetoblackdude7]

Do they HAVE to innovate? No, as you mentioned, DT are THE most influential prog metal band ever. How, as creative artists, they probably feel they have to do things differently to keep their sanity. Some bands can continuously make the same album for 30+ years (AC/DC), but DT is not that band. Shaking things up with each album keeps them from getting bored.

[lovethedrake]

I like to see them continue to push themselves but they certainly don't need to innovate the genre anymore.   I'm just grateful they continue to make albums as there is nothing more exciting than a new DT album.   

I think they hit a creative lull from Octavarium through ADTOE although I still listen to all 4 of those albums quite a bit. 
However,  I like the path they are on now and have really enjoyed the last two releases.

We will probably never get another I&W or SFAM again but that is to be expected as pretty much no band has ever captured the magic of their prime 30 years into their careers.     

FITL has magic... very excited for this album!

[BeatriceNB]

In my opinion, DT already proved who they are and what they can do. They still are influential, too, so that's bonus points. To be honest, innovation has to come from new bands, which have a more fresh view of Prog music.

Haken are the perfect successors of DT (style wise), if you ask me.
Caligula's Horse made a very interesting twist in the Dream Theater-y sound, adding some Jazz (mostly harmonically), Djent, and even Alternative Rock influences -the band defines their sound as Progressive Alternative Rock-.
DispersE released Foreword, which, stylistically, is one of the most interesting/original albums of the decade, IMO; samples -vocals and sounds- used musically, Electronic and Pop influences, Ambient parts, Holdsworth-esque solos, Djent... all over a Prog ala Dream Theater sound.
Leprous started with a very DT-esque style, and now they're unique.
(I'm only talking about DT-y bands, because there's also bands like Animals As Leaders and TesseracT who are unique).

My point is, Dream Theater has +30 years playing music, and many new bands and things appeared since they defined their own sound. Their tastes and influences are already defined, too. So, I doubt that they can innovate without doing a 180° turn or something (and AFAIK, Pink Floyd is the only band who pulled off that perfectly). New bands are playing with other new bands, and they have some kind of feedback going on; different worlds.

[Samsara]

Do they "have to?"  Nope.  But do they still do things that are outside the box for them?  Yeah.  There is some stuff on this album that will definitely have people saying, "oh, wow.  I didn't expect that."  And that's cool.  They will never deviate far from their core sound that made them what they are.  But they always seem to want to try out different things, and I love that.

This. The word "innovate" is really overused, IMO. Dream Theater, like Fates Warning and Queensryche before them, took a progressive "metal" style approach, and pushed it further. I don't really think DT has "innovated" much after their formative years. They simply just built upon what they've done.

But they do (and I'm glad for it, even if a lot of it doesn't connect with me any longer) tend to expand their sound, and incorporate and try different things, as bosk said. And for them to stay relevant, I think they need to continue doing that.

[ytserush]

I would hope so.

But for me, that means not necessarily limiting themselves to what passes for "progressive metal" these days.

 Hopefully the response to The Astonishing by many hasn't killed any desire to do something they think is cool and might get them out of their comfort zone. Sometimes it just means doing the unexpected thing.

[gzarruk]

I would hope so.

But for me, that means not necessarily limiting themselves to what passes for "progressive metal" these days.

 Hopefully the response to The Astonishing by many hasn't killed any desire to do something they think is cool and might get them out of their comfort zone. Sometimes it just means doing the unexpected thing.

This. While I understand TA isn't for everybody (and that's fine), some people just don't wan't to accept it was the most progressive thing to do, to shake things up and do something completely unexpected.

[DT1138]

The most important question here is:  What does "innovation" mean for a band with this skill level? Where does DT go from here? These are some of the most technically advanced players in the world currently that have been successful for decades.
 
Is it speed?  They can all play super fast and highly complicated runs now. 
Is it changing up the meter more often?  They can (and have done it) on a dime at any given time, in most of their songs.
Should they incorporate other musical styles within a given track? "Instrumedley" on the Budokan live album covered a lot of that ground already.
Do they invest better equipment or technology in hopes of making better music?  They're already using the best of the best there, so nope.

See what I mean?

I freely admit the "next step" is probably beyond my comprehension, but I honestly can't see them going beyond where they are.  Everything has limits.

I don't think they necessarily need to innovate anything else.  They could just put out cool and fun albums for the rest of their career, and that would be fine with me. 

But that is just me, after all.
 

[erwinrafael]

Meanwhile, Haken took only 3 albums before their sound stopped evolving.

[gzarruk]

The most important question here is:  What does "innovation" mean for a band with this skill level? Where does DT go from here? These are some of the most technically advanced players in the world currently that have been successful for decades.
 
Is it speed?  They can all play super fast and highly complicated runs now. 
Is it changing up the meter more often?  They can (and have done it) on a dime at any given time, in most of their songs.
Should they incorporate other musical styles within a given track? "Instrumedley" on the Budokan live album covered a lot of that ground already.
Do they invest better equipment or technology in hopes of making better music?  They're already using the best of the best there, so nope.

See what I mean?

I freely admit the "next step" is probably beyond my comprehension, but I honestly can't see them going beyond where they are.  Everything has limits.

I don't think they necessarily need to innovate anything else.  They could just put out cool and fun albums for the rest of their career, and that would be fine with me. 

But that is just me, after all.

Great post

[jakepriest]

Obviously the next step is writing a 40 minute djent-jazz-funk-fusion-metal-ska-reggae epic.

[erciccio]

Obviously the next step is writing a 40 minute djent-jazz-funk-fusion-metal-ska-reggae epic.

Or try some musical cubism...e.g. justaxposing different versions of the same "harmony/ melody" in a short song, with some contrappunto added..

Sort of Bela Bartok meets progressive metal.

It would be cacophonic, but probably innovative..

[TheOutlawXanadu]

I'm a simple man. I play an album in my car, and when it's done, if I have enough adrenaline to slay a dragon, I consider myself satisfied.