Dream Theater Drummer Mike Portnoy's Breakdown of Pull Me Under

[wolfking]

Heh, now we're gonna argue about set lists and click tracks in this thread too?

A Festivus miracle!!

Seriously, that was a great vid.  He is one of the only drummers I really just love sitting and watching.  Even a 4/4 song like PMU, the creativity and ongoing interesting fills he puts in all over the place is just so good to watch.

[Setlist Scotty]

Mangini neither needed nor asked for a click track. It was used more to line up the music with backing vocal tracks and visual effects than any musical needs of the five musicians.

Correct. This was actually brought up in Rodrigo's interview with MM a few weeks before the big announcement was made, and here's what MM said when Rod asked "Do you feel it’s necessary to play to a click track live or is it because of the extra elements of the show like samples and triggers and so on?":

It’s the external elements and it didn’t start when I joined. I didn’t use one when I joined, though the whole point came out of a conversation. I believe it was with Jordan that I had the discussion, if I remember correctly, because somehow the video came up – a lack of sync – and I was like, “I can do that,” and that just opened it up.

[MoraWintersoul]

So one of the most hotly argued issues in the past decade of Dream Theater came to be because Mike Mangini is a standup guy who wants to do everything he can do and he can do a lot of things. That bastard

[Ben_Jamin]

After seeing this video. I would not be surprised if they play this as their first song in the set.

[Dream Team]

So one of the most hotly argued issues in the past decade of Dream Theater came to be because Mike Mangini is a standup guy who wants to do everything he can do and he can do a lot of things. That bastard

Exactly this.

[crystalstars17]

If people are thinking that DT is just sounded too 'locked in' when they hit the stage I am skeptical eliminating the click would have changed that.

Exactly right. Maybe they are, ya know... just that good!

Lovely video..... it will be great to hear his take on the song on the next tour.

Agree on the video, but please no PMU live again anytime soon. They have such a big catalog, no need to play this one over and over again.

Not that I mind hearing it, but if they do include it this tells me two things:

1. That they may be veering dangerously close to nostalgia band territory in the near future, and,

2. That they'll do this at the expense of their singer.

James should not be singing I&W era songs live anymore. The setlist should be chosen sensitively with the health of their singer in mind. PMU just seems a stubborn choice.

[Mladen]

Opening with Pull me under would be a good choice. James just started figuring out how to alter the vocal melodies for it on the most recent tour, he can do it. 

[gzarruk]

Lovely video..... it will be great to hear his take on the song on the next tour.

Agree on the video, but please no PMU live again anytime soon. They have such a big catalog, no need to play this one over and over again.

Not that I mind hearing it, but if they do include it this tells me two things:

1. That they may be veering dangerously close to nostalgia band territory in the near future, and,

2. That they'll do this at the expense of their singer.

James should not be singing I&W era songs live anymore. The setlist should be chosen sensitively with the health of their singer in mind. PMU just seems a stubborn choice.

I agree completely.

[King Postwhore]

You are all high. You don't get to dictate what they play.

[EPIC Outro]

I think it would be cool if they released a new studio version of PMU with Mike Portnoy to build some hype - and to cement the new vocal melody in people's minds.

Pull Me Under '24!

[bosk1]

If people are thinking that DT is just sounded too 'locked in' when they hit the stage I am skeptical eliminating the click would have changed that.

Exactly right. Maybe they are, ya know... just that good!

Lovely video..... it will be great to hear his take on the song on the next tour.

Agree on the video, but please no PMU live again anytime soon. They have such a big catalog, no need to play this one over and over again.

Not that I mind hearing it, but if they do include it this tells me two things:

1. That they may be veering dangerously close to nostalgia band territory in the near future, and,

2. That they'll do this at the expense of their singer.

James should not be singing I&W era songs live anymore. The setlist should be chosen sensitively with the health of their singer in mind. PMU just seems a stubborn choice.

I COMPLETELY disagree.

1.  It's a great song, they love it, and MOST of their audience loves hearing it.  They've never been a "we need to play X song" kind of band.  But there are lots of good reasons to play this that have nothing to do with veering into them veering into "nostalgia act" territory.  Playing one song, especially a band's most popular song, does not make a band a nostalgia act.  There's a lot more to it than that.

2.  While I agree with the overall sentiment, Pull Me Under is not one of those songs that absolutely kills James.  If we were talking about Another Day or Take the Time, I would agree that it should never be included.  PMU is doable, especially if placed in the right part of the set.  It may not be perfect, but he can do a passable job with it.

[NoFred]

After seeing this video. I would not be surprised if they play this as their first song in the set.

I thought this too. Of all their songs this is the one that gets the house up. The place would explode if they opened with this.

[crystalstars17]

While I agree with the overall sentiment, Pull Me Under is not one of those songs that absolutely kills James.  If we were talking about Another Day or Take the Time, I would agree that it should never be included.  PMU is doable, especially if placed in the right part of the set.  It may not be perfect, but he can do a passable job with it.

If the melody is changed, ok. It wasn't too bad in Bridgeport. But on the whole I sincerely hope that a purely nostalgic show (ok, not a nostalgia act overall, but they may still push the nostalgia for this particular tour, for obvious reasons) containing lots and lots of I&W and Awake songs would be a very bad idea. Sure, the crowds may love it, but I hope they're also thinking of James. I'm saying this from a place of legitimate concern. It's painful to hear him attempt Learning to Live in the original key while it sounds like he's about to cough out his larynx. Maybe if adjustments can be made (and practiced) ahead of time, it could be successful.

[NoFred]

Agreed just PMU. Would be cool to hear all of the new songs instead of nostalgia

[TheBarstoolWarrior]

If people are thinking that DT is just sounded too 'locked in' when they hit the stage I am skeptical eliminating the click would have changed that.

Exactly right. Maybe they are, ya know... just that good!

Lovely video..... it will be great to hear his take on the song on the next tour.

Agree on the video, but please no PMU live again anytime soon. They have such a big catalog, no need to play this one over and over again.

Not that I mind hearing it, but if they do include it this tells me two things:

1. That they may be veering dangerously close to nostalgia band territory in the near future, and,

2. That they'll do this at the expense of their singer.

James should not be singing I&W era songs live anymore. The setlist should be chosen sensitively with the health of their singer in mind. PMU just seems a stubborn choice.

What kind of message does that send to the fans? I&W is widely regarded as their best most groundbreaking album and people want to hear those songs. How can they just say they're not going to play it any longer?

[Anxiety35]

I had no idea that PMU wasn't supposed to be on the album and it was the last song written/recorded because they were asked for something more "concise." Cool nugget.

Plus, the snare sounds better on Drumeo's mix. 

[crystalstars17]

What kind of message does that send to the fans?

I'm not sure what you mean by this. If you mean that they should do songs from I&W just because of its acclaim, then they could pick songs that are better for James (or change the melodies).

They also have other songs that are very important. The Alien (for example) won a Grammy, and is written for his current strengths. It doesn't have to be PMU.

I will add that on the whole, it's not the worst song for James that they could chose to play. It doesn't have a high F# or anything. There is that one part though that, in recent years, he insists upon screaming. A simple melody change could remedy this, but the real issue in this song is the tessitura - overall it sits very high.

[TheBarstoolWarrior]

What kind of message does that send to the fans?

I'm not sure what you mean by this. If you mean that they should do songs from I&W just because of its acclaim, then they could pick songs that are better for James (or change the melodies).

They also have other songs that are very important. The Alien (for example) won a Grammy, and is written for his current strengths. It doesn't have to be PMU.

I will add that on the whole, it's not the worst song for James that they could chose to play. It doesn't have a high F# or anything. There is that one part though that, in recent years, he insists upon screaming. A simple melody change could remedy this, but the real issue in this song is the tessitura - overall it sits very high.

It's open to interpretation because I don't know exactly. If they all of a sudden stop playing their most acclaimed groundbreaking work for the reasons you are implying (that one member cannot execute), what does that say to everyone?

Picking other acclaimed songs is not the same as playing I&W. This is their most important work and PMU is the only radio hit. When I saw them they played PMU and it got by far the biggest fan response. The guys want to play it too. The fans want to hear this music and another thing to keep in mind is that to date there is no indication that DT thinks anything is wrong with JLB's performance.

Also I don't think a high F# is JLB's issue at this point.

[crystalstars17]

It's open to interpretation because I don't know exactly. If they all of a sudden stop playing their most acclaimed groundbreaking work for the reasons you are implying (that one member cannot execute), what does that say to everyone?

Picking other acclaimed songs is not the same as playing I&W. This is their most important work and PMU is the only radio hit. When I saw them they played PMU and it got by far the biggest fan response. The guys want to play it too. The fans want to hear this music and another thing to keep in mind is that to date there is no indication that DT thinks anything is wrong with JLB's performance.

Also I don't think a high F# is JLB's issue at this point.

It's not that he cannot execute or that anything is wrong with his performance. I have expounded at length in another thread upon what I think his vocal issues are, and believe me, nobody wants to see him fix those issues and deliver a perfect performance more than I do. But these things take time to work through. Hopefully the band will give him that this second time around, and not make the same mistake twice.

[TheBarstoolWarrior]

It's open to interpretation because I don't know exactly. If they all of a sudden stop playing their most acclaimed groundbreaking work for the reasons you are implying (that one member cannot execute), what does that say to everyone?

Picking other acclaimed songs is not the same as playing I&W. This is their most important work and PMU is the only radio hit. When I saw them they played PMU and it got by far the biggest fan response. The guys want to play it too. The fans want to hear this music and another thing to keep in mind is that to date there is no indication that DT thinks anything is wrong with JLB's performance.

Also I don't think a high F# is JLB's issue at this point.

It's not that he cannot execute or that anything is wrong with his performance. I have expounded at length in another thread upon what I think his vocal issues are, and believe me, nobody wants to see him fix those issues and deliver a perfect performance more than I do. But these things take time to work through. Hopefully the band will give him that this second time around, and not make the same mistake twice.

Ok but if it is not that anything is wrong with his performance and the fans by and large want to hear this music and the band wants to play it, then why should the just stop playing it?

I am sure the band hears and thinks about fan feedback but calls for them to stop playing I&W are likely a non-starter and even if they were to stop I am not sure what that accomplishes. Performances of the Alien night to night were no different from PMU. If the last 2 tours is just where we are then I see no reason to just arbitarily eliminate the most beloved songs from the setlists.

I've played the hell out of I&W but since every performance is different I like hearing it live as well. Is it really the case that if we listened to the View tour and skipped over PMU we would come away thinking vastly differently about JLB's performance? I don't see that at all.

[Setlist Scotty]

Playing one song, especially a band's most popular song, does not make a band a nostalgia act.  There's a lot more to it than that.

Completely agree. They would be a nostalgia act if all they ever did was play everything from IaW, but aside from the tour in support of that album, the 2017 anniversary tour and a handful of shows in 2007, that has never been the case. The band *always* included a healthy dose of their most recent album as well as a selection of stuff throughout their catalog; this was especially the case *while* MP was in the band, although the last 2 album/tour cycles really didn't include much from previous MM-era albums besides the current album. But that had nothing to do with MP.
 
 

But on the whole I sincerely hope that a purely nostalgic show (ok, not a nostalgia act overall, but they may still push the nostalgia for this particular tour, for obvious reasons) containing lots and lots of I&W and Awake songs would be a very bad idea.

Again, you can be sure it won't be a "nostalgia show". While the number of MM-era songs in the setlist will probably be limited to a handful at any given time, I'm pretty confident they will be there. And it won't just be a focus on IaW, Awake and SFaM. Take a look at the setlists from when MP was in the band previously and you'll see that they were always well balanced with a selection of material taken from the band's history.
 
 

Sure, the crowds may love it, but I hope they're also thinking of James. I'm saying this from a place of legitimate concern. It's painful to hear him attempt Learning to Live in the original key while it sounds like he's about to cough out his larynx. Maybe if adjustments can be made (and practiced) ahead of time, it could be successful.

Believe it or not, MP was thinking of JL *long* before anyone else was. It was MP that decided to abridge both Voices and TtT because of the second verse in both being extremely difficult for JL. In fact, IIRC, either JP and/or JL made a comment in an interview a good decade ago (I think it was after MP left, but I could be wrong) that suggested that it was not their choice to abridge those songs and that they would've preferred to do them in full. But MP knew it wasn't a wise idea because JL would struggle with those verses.

Now that JL is older and seems to be struggling much more so than he did 13 years ago, I would imagine that there will be a focus on him doing training to improve as much as he is capable of, as well as them working out various alternate vocal melodies that would work for JL given his current abilities, whether that involves some down-tuning or not.
 
 

I had no idea that PMU wasn't supposed to be on the album and it was the last song written/recorded because they were asked for something more "concise." Cool nugget.

Sounds like someone needs to read Lifting Shadows to brush up on their DT history.  Without checking, I'm almost 100% positive it was mentioned in there. If not there, then the liner notes for the IaW demos.

[MirrorMask]

All I knew is that it was meant to be track 5 and not the opener, that should have been Metropolis. The fact that it was a last minute addition was new to me!

[Trav86]

Asking for no PMU is nuts. I’ve never understood how the “hardcore” fans can put it down, or say they’re bored with it. It’s an awesome song. Should Rush have stopped playing “Tom Sawyer”. Should Van Halen have stopped playing “Jump”? Iron Maiden no “Run to the Hills”, Metallica no “Enter Sandman”?

[porcacultor]

Asking for no PMU is nuts. I’ve never understood how the “hardcore” fans can put it down, or say they’re bored with it. It’s an awesome song. Should Rush have stopped playing “Tom Sawyer”. Should Van Halen have stopped playing “Jump”? Iron Maiden no “Run to the Hills”, Metallica no “Enter Sandman”?

I can live without Run to the Hills in Iron Maiden's set, but them playing Fear of the Dark regardless of the tour being dedicated to other eras of the band is absolutely fine by me, so I agree with the sentiment.

(...)
Sounds like someone needs to read Lifting Shadows to brush up on their DT history.  Without checking, I'm almost 100% positive it was mentioned in there. If not there, then the liner notes for the IaW demos.

The info's there! (And if anyone doesn't have the physical album, Discogs is your friend).

I was aware that the demo title of the song was "Oliver's Twist", but had no idea the titular Oliver was Derek Oliver, the A&R guy MP referred to. Figured they were in a Dickensian kick 

[Setlist Scotty]

Asking for no PMU is nuts. I’ve never understood how the “hardcore” fans can put it down, or say they’re bored with it. It’s an awesome song. Should Rush have stopped playing “Tom Sawyer”. Should Van Halen have stopped playing “Jump”? Iron Maiden no “Run to the Hills”, Metallica no “Enter Sandman”?

No it's not nuts when you consider the general audience that DT has which is much more focused on the catalog than simply the "hits". And it's not to say that it won't make an appearance in the setlist – just look at the setlists from 2002-2010 and you'll see that it was rotated in and out of the setlist just like every other track. But it's not mandatory that it be played. And it shouldn't be.

As for your comparisons to other bands not playing their hits, absolutely they should drop them. Every single one of them has plenty of other "hits" and other catalog tracks that should more than satiate the general audience. In fact Rush *did* for the longest time drop one of their biggest hits – Closer to the Heart – and I don't think I ever saw anyone complain about that. I doubt anyone is complaining that Maiden doesn't have Run to the Hills *or* Number of the Beast in the current setlist. And I know for a fact that Metallica is *not* playing Enter Sandman at at least half of their shows because they've been doing the whole "no repeat weekend" thing.

[Madman Shepherd]

Asking for no PMU is nuts. I’ve never understood how the “hardcore” fans can put it down, or say they’re bored with it. It’s an awesome song.

That's one where I'm always like, "awww man...Pull Me Under?" And then 40 seconds into the song I'm thinking, "oh yeah. Duh. This song is awesome."

[crystalstars17]

Believe it or not, MP was thinking of JL *long* before anyone else was.

I'm happy to hear this. 🙂

[Shooters1221]

Mangini neither needed nor asked for a click track. It was used more to line up the music with backing vocal tracks and visual effects than any musical needs of the five musicians.

100% agree here!

[lucasembarbosa]

Imagine what if MP plays a MM era song on a future Drumeo video... 

[JiM-Xtreme]

I am very keen to know where any of the “warp-speed” versions of PMU can be found! I remember a particular clip on YouTube several years ago where they went up to a crazy speed during the second verse/pre-Chorus which had a hilarious impact on the lyrics (specifically JL barking out the words “CLO-SER! TO! MY! LAST!”. Doesn’t seem to be up there anymore though…

Was there one on the official bootlegs somewhere, Santiago perhaps?

[Setlist Scotty]

I am very keen to know where any of the “warp-speed” versions of PMU can be found! I remember a particular clip on YouTube several years ago where they went up to a crazy speed during the second verse/pre-Chorus which had a hilarious impact on the lyrics (specifically JL barking out the words “CLO-SER! TO! MY! LAST!”. Doesn’t seem to be up there anymore though…

Was there one on the official bootlegs somewhere, Santiago perhaps?

According to my records, here’s all the times PMU was performed “warped” (not “warp speed” - MP’s memory is off on that).

2002/02/14 Milan, Italy (half warped - probably only sped up part)

2002/03/15 Chicago, IL (half warped - sped up)
2002/03/24 Washington, DC (very warped)
2002/03/28 New York City, NY

2002/06/21 Murcia, Spain

2002/06/23 Lyon, France

2002/06/24 Lichtenfels, Germany

2002/07/04 Bucharest, Romania

2002/07/10 Toscolano Maderno, Italy

2002/08/09 San Diego, CA

2002/09/03 Cleveland, OH

2002/09/14 Wantagh, NY

2002/10/21 London, England

2002/10/24 Paris, France

2002/11/07 Athens, Greece

2003/06/25 Grand Prairie (Dallas), TX (half warped - slowed down)

2003/06/30 Atlanta, Georgia (half warped - sped up)

2003/07/12 Wilmington, DE (half warped - slowed down)

2003/07/18 Cincinnati, OH

2004/08/21 Worcester, MA

2005/06/26 Dessel, Belgium (only first half of PMU performed)

2005/08/05 Atlanta, GA (only first half of PMU performed)

2005/08/23 Wantagh, NY (only first half of PMU performed)

2005/08/28 Atlantic City, NJ

2005/10/02 Hamburg, Germany (only first half of PMU performed)

2005/10/07 Düsseldorf, Germany (only first half of PMU performed)

2005/10/10 Amsterdam, Netherlands (only first half of PMU performed)

2005/10/30 Bologna, Italy

2006/01/08 Fukuoka, Japan (only first half of PMU performed)
2006/01/13 Tokyo, Japan

2007/06/23 Zaragoza, Spain (warped, but ending was sped up instead of slowed down)

2007/06/24 Clisson, France (half warped - probably only sped up part)
2010/07/10 Worcester, MA (only first half of PMU performed)


As you can see, the 2002 Bucharest show is one of the shows it was performed at, so it is on an official bootleg. Here’s video from it:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1X8dzPAjj10&list=PLC1FA4EF7D8038968&index=12
MP starts speeding up the tempo at 4:22. And he starts slowing down the tempo at about 7:22.

[JiM-Xtreme]

As you can see, the 2002 Bucharest show is one of the shows it was performed at, so it is on an official bootleg. Here’s video from it:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1X8dzPAjj10&list=PLC1FA4EF7D8038968&index=12
MP starts speeding up the tempo at 4:22. And he starts slowing down the tempo at about 7:22.

Amazing list Scotty, and this is exactly the performance I was thinking of, thank you!!

I love how intently JP is watching MP for the last minute or so, determined to stay locked in as it gets increasingly slower and slower 

[devieira73]

That slowing down tempo is incredible and totally fits the feel of the original arrangements.
Wow I totally forgot how cool and fun was that version!

[Dream Team]

That Worcester 2004/08/21 was our first DT show. Awesome set list too.

[hefdaddy42]

"very warped"

Video was cool to see how fluidly and easily MP played it, as expected.  Although I won't be heartbroken if they leave it out of the next round of setlists lol