When did encores stop being actual encores?

[KevShmev]

An encore is technically an unplanned performance at the end of a normal show, but for as long as I can remember, 99.999% of the shows I have seen or heard about feature encores that were planned, which makes them not true encores in the strictest sense of the word, although one could certainly argue that planned encores are so common now that the meaning of the word has changed.

What bands back in the day regularly did unplanned encores?

Or has it always been this way in popular music?

[RoeDent]

It's just a money-spinning way to make us feel like we're getting "more" for our money, even though they were planned all along. Maybe the unplanned bit now is that they don't play those songs if they get booed off stage or something.

"I didn't think he was gonna do Moon River but then BAM! second encore!"

[Elite]

I've seen bands do an actual encore after the 'planned' encore, and that was always tons of fun. Amazing to see a band really wanting to give fans some more if they can't stop cheering.

[MirrorMask]

Silly off topic trivia: an encore in italian can also be called a "bis", so a satyrical band made a song called "bis" to satisfy fans that were always shouting for a "bis" 

I don't think an encore it's a cheat. It's just a well accepted trick between the audience and the band, I see it more as a way to artificially compensate for the end of the show - you're there, having a good time, and the show is over and you're sad... at least when they tell you it's the last song you get braced for the end, they come back for more but you accept that the show is about to end.

Also, it's a good chance to have two closing songs and two opening songs in the show, with the encore serving as a second start of the show.

By now the real trick should be to have, even if planned, a second encore... the first time the band walks off stage nobody believes them, but the second time someone might think "ok, this is it".

[lordxizor]

For big live productions, I'd imagine that playing an unplanned song can be kind of difficult given the lighting, back-up audio tracks, video boards, etc that would need to be available and cued up. Smaller bands without the big production could probably do it fairly easily. I doubt there is a big call for it these days given that fans attending shows pretty much know how things work. No one is going to sit there and scream for several minutes after the lights come up after the planned encore hoping for another one.

[Nekov]

Not sure what happens in other countries, but at least down here the theaters have some strict schedules that bands have to adhere to. I remember an Angra concert that was being tons of fun and they were kicked out of the stage because of a timing issue. Also, bands may want to just go back to the hotel and rest before going back on the road and that is understandable too. Sometimes their schedules are a nightmare.

[Zook]

It has to be planned otherwise they get fined for going overtime. When I saw Symphony X in 2011, one of the openers went slightly over, and you could see SX's tech off to the side super pissed and yelling at them to stop.

[MirrorMask]

In this regard, I wonder how bands manage to plan the exact duration of a show. Sure, the songs are those ones, and if they already decide the setlist, they know for example how long a song that fades out on the disc lasts with the additional "live" ending, and surely they plan the pause spots where the singer talk to the audience and all of that.... but still, there's some unpredictability in a live show, maybe the fans chant very loud and go on and on and on, maybe something unexpected happens - for example, when I saw Nightwish a few days ago, someone was sick in the audience, and they didn't go on with the next song until they made sure the paramedics reached the person in trouble.

I assume that bands plan for some wiggle room, and say, if they have two hours, they plan for a 1h55' show to allow some extra time for unexpected crowd interaction, possible technical issues and the likes.

[lonestar]

The one band I can think of is The Kinks. They would usually rattle off three or four encores, sometimes turning the house lights on in between. I never left a Kinks show til they started breaking down the stage.

[Kwyjibo]

An encore is technically an unplanned performance at the end of a normal show

Just curious, but who says it has to be unplanned? Is that an official definition?

The german word "Zugabe" just means you get something extra. That is has to be unplanned is not defined.

[KevShmev]

Just curious, but who says it has to be unplanned? Is that an official definition?

Yes.

For big live productions, I'd imagine that playing an unplanned song can be kind of difficult given the lighting, back-up audio tracks, video boards, etc that would need to be available and cued up. Smaller bands without the big production could probably do it fairly easily. I doubt there is a big call for it these days given that fans attending shows pretty much know how things work. No one is going to sit there and scream for several minutes after the lights come up after the planned encore hoping for another one.

An encore could be just the band rocking out without the extra lights and video stuff to go along with it. Save that stuff for the main set.

It has to be planned otherwise they get fined for going overtime. When I saw Symphony X in 2011, one of the openers went slightly over, and you could see SX's tech off to the side super pissed and yelling at them to stop.

Not if you do it right.  Say you can't go past 11 pm, you start your main show at 8:30 and play till 10:30-ish, and then if you want to do an encore, you have 20-30 minutes to play with.

[jammindude]

Just curious, but who says it has to be unplanned? Is that an official definition?

Yes.

For big live productions, I'd imagine that playing an unplanned song can be kind of difficult given the lighting, back-up audio tracks, video boards, etc that would need to be available and cued up. Smaller bands without the big production could probably do it fairly easily. I doubt there is a big call for it these days given that fans attending shows pretty much know how things work. No one is going to sit there and scream for several minutes after the lights come up after the planned encore hoping for another one.

An encore could be just the band rocking out without the extra lights and video stuff to go along with it. Save that stuff for the main set.

It has to be planned otherwise they get fined for going overtime. When I saw Symphony X in 2011, one of the openers went slightly over, and you could see SX's tech off to the side super pissed and yelling at them to stop.

Not if you do it right.  Say you can't go past 11 pm, you start your main show at 8:30 and play till 10:30-ish, and then if you want to do an encore, you have 20-30 minutes to play with.

Soooooooooo plan for it?

[The Letter M]

Just curious, but who says it has to be unplanned? Is that an official definition?

Yes.

For big live productions, I'd imagine that playing an unplanned song can be kind of difficult given the lighting, back-up audio tracks, video boards, etc that would need to be available and cued up. Smaller bands without the big production could probably do it fairly easily. I doubt there is a big call for it these days given that fans attending shows pretty much know how things work. No one is going to sit there and scream for several minutes after the lights come up after the planned encore hoping for another one.

An encore could be just the band rocking out without the extra lights and video stuff to go along with it. Save that stuff for the main set.

It has to be planned otherwise they get fined for going overtime. When I saw Symphony X in 2011, one of the openers went slightly over, and you could see SX's tech off to the side super pissed and yelling at them to stop.

Not if you do it right.  Say you can't go past 11 pm, you start your main show at 8:30 and play till 10:30-ish, and then if you want to do an encore, you have 20-30 minutes to play with.

Soooooooooo plan for it?

 

One of my favorite unplanned encores is from Transatlantic's first Tilburg show, where they played an unplanned 2nd encore on their 3 show of the Bridge Across Forever tour, doing a cover of "Shine On You Crazy Diamond" (which they recorded for BAF for the bonus disc). Since then, they always planned an extra encore/special song for the Tilburg crowd.

-Marc.

[Evermind]

Just curious, but who says it has to be unplanned? Is that an official definition?

Yes.

For big live productions, I'd imagine that playing an unplanned song can be kind of difficult given the lighting, back-up audio tracks, video boards, etc that would need to be available and cued up. Smaller bands without the big production could probably do it fairly easily. I doubt there is a big call for it these days given that fans attending shows pretty much know how things work. No one is going to sit there and scream for several minutes after the lights come up after the planned encore hoping for another one.

An encore could be just the band rocking out without the extra lights and video stuff to go along with it. Save that stuff for the main set.

It has to be planned otherwise they get fined for going overtime. When I saw Symphony X in 2011, one of the openers went slightly over, and you could see SX's tech off to the side super pissed and yelling at them to stop.

Not if you do it right.  Say you can't go past 11 pm, you start your main show at 8:30 and play till 10:30-ish, and then if you want to do an encore, you have 20-30 minutes to play with.

Soooooooooo plan for it?

I get what Kev is saying, but this made me laugh out loud. Nice one.

[KevShmev]

I said "if"...

Well played, though, sir.

[El Barto]

I've seen bands do an actual encore after the 'planned' encore, and that was always tons of fun. Amazing to see a band really wanting to give fans some more if they can't stop cheering.

Yeah, this is always great. I've seen it done when a crowd is particularly into it, which is how it should work, and it makes the audience feel special. "Ha, we were better than those Houston assholes!"

I suppose it's possible that the process just inverted. Rather than playing an extra song for a worthy audience they plan on playing it, but leave the option to bail if the crowd sucks. Or if somebody in the band is worn out. I've probably seen an encore dropped as often as I've seen an unscheduled encore played.

There's also the possibility that bands just won't play things they haven't rehearsed. I saw a Priest/Whitesnake tour where Coverdale dropped out right before they hit Dallas. We were excited because that meant Priest could play a longer set. Nope. We just got out an hour early. Presumably they just aren't capable of tacking on Green Manalishi or Electric Eye without some lead time (which is what soundchecks are for, really).

The flip side is that I've seen artists do audience request night and play whatever they want for as long as they want. I saw Brubeck damn near dragged off the stage after the third encore. His band pretty much mutinied. No reason those guys couldn't have played til 0200 if the wanted.

[Stadler]

I suppose it's possible that the process just inverted. Rather than playing an extra song for a worthy audience they plan on playing it, but leave the option to bail if the crowd sucks. Or if somebody in the band is worn out. I've probably seen an encore dropped as often as I've seen an unscheduled encore played.

Me too; in fact, I've probably seen that MORE than the unplanned additional song.  I'm sure there are others, but Marillion is the only big one I can think of off the top of my head; at Toad's in New Haven we were chanting "FREAKS" (well, the crowd was, I wasn't; not my favorite song) and H came out and said "What the fuck IS it with that song??   If someone can find me the lyrics, we'll give it a go" and he sang about half the song from a sheet of paper while Rothery played guitar.  It was special (only time on that entire tour, so it wasn't a bit).

There's also the possibility that bands just won't play things they haven't rehearsed. I saw a Priest/Whitesnake tour where Coverdale dropped out right before they hit Dallas. We were excited because that meant Priest could play a longer set. Nope. We just got out an hour early. Presumably they just aren't capable of tacking on Green Manalishi or Electric Eye without some lead time (which is what soundchecks are for, really).

I have no idea if it is true or not, but the story goes, Cheap Trick was supposed to do a show at Red Rocks with.... I have no idea who, but the headliners had cameras set up to film the show.  The headliner told Cheap Trick they could have the slot, and if they played a full set they could use the recording gear.   So on a tour where they were playing an hour,  tops, every night, they just showed up, played a headliner set, FILMED it, and later released it.   

EDIT, so it is true, it was Frampton, and it was to be filmed by AXS TV.   Cheap Trick actually played over 2 1/2 hours (27 songs; kind of long for them, even headlining; they're a 2 hour act, the setlist for the shows before and after were about 17, 18 songs, including the "Hello There"'s and "Goodnight Now"'s).   Of course, AXS DID release it... but edited it down to an hour, so you're stuck with yet another version of "Surrender"!

The flip side is that I've seen artists do audience request night and play whatever they want for as long as they want. I saw Brubeck damn near dragged off the stage after the third encore. His band pretty much mutinied. No reason those guys couldn't have played til 0200 if the wanted.

I don't think I've ever really seen that, except in bars.  There was a guy here, name is Gary Gidman (he just passed away, RIP) who used to walk in to this bar around me with his guitar and a three ring binder (that was honest to god, three inches thick) and sit down and just take requests.  He'd play probably three or four hour-long sets and every song was a request of some sort. 

I do sort of not like the faux spontaneity, though.  I saw Night Ranger - who I love - at a fair here in Springfield, MA, and before I went I checked the setlists just to see, and they played the same four covers every show of the tour ("Crazy Train", "School's Out", couple others) and yet Jack Blades introduced them as if this was the only time ever, and we were REALLY taxing Brad Gillis' memory to remember playing "Crazy Train" 30 years ago in the two-month gig he had with Ozzy... and we were REALLY putting Kerry Kelly (or Keri Kelli or Kelli Kerry, whatever the f--- his name is, second guitar player, who played with Alice Cooper) on the spot as the new guy by "making" him play "School's Out" (a song he's probably played live 100 times with Alice).   I don't know; kind of rubbed me the wrong way. 

[gmillerdrake]

I've seen bands do an actual encore after the 'planned' encore, and that was always tons of fun. Amazing to see a band really wanting to give fans some more if they can't stop cheering.

I think DT did that during the end of the Astonishing tour....when they'd figured out they were heading right into the I&W tour I recall hearing the last show or second to last show they did a couple songs after the planned encore.

[pg1067]

In the 80s, it was hit or miss whether Ozzy would do an encore.

Otherwise, and with the possible exception of a few club type shows, I've always gotten the impression that encores have evolved from something extra that is played because a particular crowd is particularly into the show into something planned that is always played unless there's some compelling reason not to do so.

When I first started going to concerts, I always felt like I had to yell really loud in order to "earn" an encore.  Nowadays, if the band isn't on stage, I really don't bother.

[Setlist Scotty]

I've seen bands do an actual encore after the 'planned' encore, and that was always tons of fun. Amazing to see a band really wanting to give fans some more if they can't stop cheering.

I think DT did that during the end of the Astonishing tour....when they'd figured out they were heading right into the I&W tour I recall hearing the last show or second to last show they did a couple songs after the planned encore.

Not really - you're getting some of the details mixed up. Towards the end of the tour, they decided to drop 5 of the songs from the album, move up the closing (title) track to the second set (it had been separated to be "the encore" up until that point) and added 3 of their "classic" songs as the encore.

[Adami]

The first time I saw TSO live, like 17 years or whatever, they left the stage before the encore and the audience started to leave. The guitarist had to run out and be like "Woahhhh, guys! We're not done yet. Notice the house lights are still off? Stage lights still on? We're just back there pretending we're not gonna come out, but obviously we will"

[Ben_Jamin]

The Dear Hunter and Dark Tranquility played here in a small intimiate venue. It was funny because when it came time for the encore songs, they both said something akin to "we're not going to do the rock n roll leave the stage, come back bullshit. So heres the next songs."

I loved that because it was honest and honestly made the show more smoother and the last song more better, since it ended the flow basically.

[bosk1]

It has to be planned otherwise they get fined for going overtime. When I saw Symphony X in 2011, one of the openers went slightly over, and you could see SX's tech off to the side super pissed and yelling at them to stop.

Not if you do it right.  Say you can't go past 11 pm, you start your main show at 8:30 and play till 10:30-ish, and then if you want to do an encore, you have 20-30 minutes to play with.

And not every venue/neighborhood has sound curfew or union issues that would bump up against realistic ending times and result in fines. 

Going back to the OP, I don't have an answer to the original question.  But on the rare occasions where a band truly responds to audience demand to spontaneously do something extra, it can be really, really cool, even if the performance leaves a lot to be desired.  Not sure how many have seen it but for those that have the Transatlantic "Official Bootleg" DVD that they sold back on the Whirlwind tour, there is footage of them backstage from a show somewhere in Europe in that exact scenario, and they are debating what to play, and Mike and Neal argue for Shine On You Crazy Diamond over Pete's VERY vocal protests about not knowing it.  Then they go out onstage and try it, and it's a hot mess, but they have a blast doing it anyway.  I tried finding footage just now on Youtube, but couldn't locate any.

[The Letter M]

It has to be planned otherwise they get fined for going overtime. When I saw Symphony X in 2011, one of the openers went slightly over, and you could see SX's tech off to the side super pissed and yelling at them to stop.

Not if you do it right.  Say you can't go past 11 pm, you start your main show at 8:30 and play till 10:30-ish, and then if you want to do an encore, you have 20-30 minutes to play with.

And not every venue/neighborhood has sound curfew or union issues that would bump up against realistic ending times and result in fines. 

Going back to the OP, I don't have an answer to the original question.  But on the rare occasions where a band truly responds to audience demand to spontaneously do something extra, it can be really, really cool, even if the performance leaves a lot to be desired.  Not sure how many have seen it but for those that have the Transatlantic "Official Bootleg" DVD that they sold back on the Whirlwind tour, there is footage of them backstage from a show somewhere in Europe in that exact scenario, and they are debating what to play, and Mike and Neal argue for Shine On You Crazy Diamond over Pete's VERY vocal protests about not knowing it.  Then they go out onstage and try it, and it's a hot mess, but they have a blast doing it anyway.  I tried finding footage just now on Youtube, but couldn't locate any.

One of my favorite unplanned encores is from Transatlantic's first Tilburg show, where they played an unplanned 2nd encore on their 3 show of the Bridge Across Forever tour, doing a cover of "Shine On You Crazy Diamond" (which they recorded for BAF for the bonus disc). Since then, they always planned an extra encore/special song for the Tilburg crowd.

-Marc.

 

-Marc.

[bosk1]

Oh, sorry--didn't see that.  I thought it might have been Tilburg, but couldn't remember for sure.

[Dream Team]

I think Springsteen used to do it in his 80s heyday.

[cramx3]

It amazes me how many people leave before the encore.  It seems if you get a 2nd encore in these days, that it is more like the traditional encore since in general it is rare to get a double encore and it seems those are often not planned. 

One cool example of a double encore was when I saw AFI in Boston a year or so ago.
https://www.setlist.fm/setlist/afi/2017/paradise-rock-club-boston-ma-5bf827ac.html
I was right up front to see this as the finished the encore, the band looked over to the sound booth on the side of the stage and begged for more time and I could see the guy relunctantly agree and they came back out and took a fan request for the last song. 

Sometimes for encores though, they are used for change of pace.  For example, Steven Wilson would start his encore with an acoustic solo song which was vastly different than how he just ended the set.  Some bands do their new single in the encore.  Some bands do their biggest hit.  It's hard to pigeon hole what an "encore" is as so many bands use it differently.

[El Barto]

In the 80s, it was hit or miss whether Ozzy would do an encore.

In the 80's it was hit or miss whether Ozzy would play more than half a set. He'd play an encore, but he might chop 5 songs elsewhere.

[cramx3]

In the 80s, it was hit or miss whether Ozzy would do an encore.

In the 80's it was hit or miss whether Ozzy would play more than half a set. He'd play an encore, but he might chop 5 songs elsewhere.

and in 2018 he did the same song twice! 

[ZirconBlue]

I've seen bands do an actual encore after the 'planned' encore, and that was always tons of fun. Amazing to see a band really wanting to give fans some more if they can't stop cheering.

I think DT did that during the end of the Astonishing tour....when they'd figured out they were heading right into the I&W tour I recall hearing the last show or second to last show they did a couple songs after the planned encore.

Not really - you're getting some of the details mixed up. Towards the end of the tour, they decided to drop 5 of the songs from the album, move up the closing (title) track to the second set (it had been separated to be "the encore" up until that point) and added 3 of their "classic" songs as the encore.

At the show I went to, they played the title track as a first encore, then came out and did the other 3 songs as a second encore.

[Setlist Scotty]

I've seen bands do an actual encore after the 'planned' encore, and that was always tons of fun. Amazing to see a band really wanting to give fans some more if they can't stop cheering.

I think DT did that during the end of the Astonishing tour....when they'd figured out they were heading right into the I&W tour I recall hearing the last show or second to last show they did a couple songs after the planned encore.

Not really - you're getting some of the details mixed up. Towards the end of the tour, they decided to drop 5 of the songs from the album, move up the closing (title) track to the second set (it had been separated to be "the encore" up until that point) and added 3 of their "classic" songs as the encore.

At the show I went to, they played the title track as a first encore, then came out and did the other 3 songs as a second encore.

Which show was that?

I guess that's always a possibility, but JP seems to really be of the mindset to keep things as consistent from show to show as possible, so it would be surprising, especially given that this was his response when I emailed him about whether there were two encores or one with the classic songs added:

Astonishing is now a part of Act 2 and the three 'oldies' are the encore.

[chknptpie]

I've noticed at shows in AZ that people aren't cheering for the encore as much anymore. It's started to be standing around waiting for the band to come back out.

[Lonk]

The only band I’ve seen playing an unplanned encore is Disturbed in 2009 and All that Remains also in 2009.

[PixelDream]

A Perfect Circle just left the stage after the last song and didn’t come back when I saw them last week. Quite refreshing actually. It’s pretty weird that encores have become the norm, in a way.