Distance over Time - New Single "Untethered Angel"

[Groundhog]

I have been listening to Untethered Angel on my headphones from Deezer Hi-Fi, iTunes and the split screen video from the Youtube and I am not hearing difference between these. The sound is certainly an improvement over the latest albums. Drums have more weight to them and I really like how the guitars sound. I was hoping that on repeated listens the vocal sound would grow on me, but it just sounds weird. This track still has too much compression (DR7). That’s nothing new though so I was expecting this, but it is disappointing. I guess we will not be getting a dynamic sound on modern DT releases as they’ve proven time after a time that they are following the loudness war trend which is a shame. I can only hope that some of the other formats (vinyl, Blu-ray, hi-res files) has better mastering than this. I'd argue that the lack of dynamic range is the number one reason why modern albums sound muddled in comparison to the old ones. There's just not enough room for the instruments to breath and have clarity.

I like the song, but it very much sounds like modern DT. There’s nothing we haven’t heard from them before. I get that this is probably why this is the single. I like the energy of it and there are some great riffs and I really enjoy the instrumental section. For me the singles has always been the weakest songs on DT albums so I am looking forward to hearing the rest of the album. I’ll probably end up buying the vinyl and maybe the blu-ray, but I am going to wait and see how the mastering on those are before making the decision. If it is the same on every format I’ll just grab the vinyl and as far as the digital version goes I just stick to Deezer. I am interested in the hi-res files, but if they are only offered with the collector’s edition then the price is too much for me.

[Bertielee]

DT put a lot of thought into the making of this album. The preparations, the vibe in studio, the fun they had while making it. It reinvigorated them after the poor reception by a certain group of fans of the astonishing. So to say they didn’t care, didn’t try to make something cool.. I dunno where to even start.

Well, I guess (and it is only conjecture as I don't know him personnally) Dublagent66 is no longer into DT and it has to do with them as much as it has to do with him, IMO. Once again, I didn't listen to the single, but, yeah, what with the treasure hunt and such, they seem to have put a lot of effort into that album. Whether we appreciate it or not depends on us, not them.

B.Lee

[wolfking]

I've listened to the song for the second time.  I probably won't listen to it again until the album comes out though.  Second time, I surprisingly had no issues with James' vocal mix, I actually thought it was decent enough.

I also think the chorus is pretty good, should fit well in the album and I think should sound even better.  I do hope there are a lot better songs on the album though.

Saying that, I feel DT seems to be turning into just another prog metal band.  They had such uniqueness, originality and each album had it's own unique sound, feel, characteristics, style and atmosphere.  Since ADTOE they seem to be losing that and now so much of their stuff can be reminded of older songs with similar and sometimes stale feel.  Although I didn't like ADTOE and TA, I really loved DT12, that had a spark with some of that old flame, but this song while good seems the band just treading familiar, somewhat generic territory.  Flame me if you will and will happily eat my words if the album proves otherwise, but that's my feel when listening to this song.

[Bertielee]

I've listened to the song for the second time.  I probably won't listen to it again until the album comes out though.  Second time, I surprisingly had no issues with James' vocal mix, I actually thought it was decent enough.

I also think the chorus is pretty good, should fit well in the album and I think should sound even better.  I do hope there are a lot better songs on the album though.

Saying that, I feel DT seems to be turning into just another prog metal band.  They had such uniqueness, originality and each album had it's own unique sound, feel, characteristics, style and atmosphere.  Since ADTOE they seem to be losing that and now so much of their stuff can be reminded of older songs with similar and sometimes stale feel.  Although I didn't like ADTOE and TA, I really loved DT12, that had a spark with some of that old flame, but this song while good seems the band just treading familiar, somewhat generic territory.  Flame me if you will and will happily eat my words if the album proves otherwise, but that's my feel when listening to this song.

I don't know if they're turning into just another prog metal band, but the tendency to become a more "clinical" band (for lack of a better term), IMO, was initiated with SC and continued with BC&SL. For me, it was better with ADToE and TA, but the in-between DT12 had that same vibe.

B.Lee

Edit : I will gladly see you eat your words and even the CD if you are proven wrong. Don't forget to film too!

[wolfking]

I've listened to the song for the second time.  I probably won't listen to it again until the album comes out though.  Second time, I surprisingly had no issues with James' vocal mix, I actually thought it was decent enough.

I also think the chorus is pretty good, should fit well in the album and I think should sound even better.  I do hope there are a lot better songs on the album though.

Saying that, I feel DT seems to be turning into just another prog metal band.  They had such uniqueness, originality and each album had it's own unique sound, feel, characteristics, style and atmosphere.  Since ADTOE they seem to be losing that and now so much of their stuff can be reminded of older songs with similar and sometimes stale feel.  Although I didn't like ADTOE and TA, I really loved DT12, that had a spark with some of that old flame, but this song while good seems the band just treading familiar, somewhat generic territory.  Flame me if you will and will happily eat my words if the album proves otherwise, but that's my feel when listening to this song.

I don't know if they're turning into just another prog metal band, but the tendency to become a more "clinical" band (for lack of a better term), IMO, was initiated with SC and continued with BC&SL. For me, it was better with ADToE and TA, but the in-between DT12 had that same vibe.

B.Lee

Edit : I will gladly see you eat your words and even the CD if you are proven wrong. Don't forget to film too!

True, it does probably go back to SC but even that and Black Clouds both had a bit more personality than what they band has been doing lately.  I know it's probably a weird thing to say after TA but maybe the term 'clinical' has merit.  I think there is so many things in this song that reminds of older stuff and DT never use to be that band.

[EPIC Outro]

I love the new single. So many awesome sections for a song that is relatively short by Dream Theater standards. I agree that the vocals are hard to understand at points, and I do hope DT tinkers with the mix before release, like they did with Breaking the Fourth Wall. But the vocal melodies are really unique. I love how their sound has evolved over the years, and how passionate they still are about the music they give us. I can't wait to dig into the rest of the album.

[noxon]

I really don't understand the argument that everything post Portnoy is similar. and becoming generic.  ADTOE, DT12 and TA couldn't be more different albums. The sound, the mix, the song structure, the riff styles - everything is very different. I don't think there's a single album in DTs catalogue where I'd go "man, this is just a rehash of that album". Look at The Astonishing. It's full of chord changes and melodies that are very unique to DT - they'd never done it before. JP has even said he was very challenged by the album due to the complex chords that were so different from what he was used to.

Untethered Angel is the one track on D/T that sounds a bit like "modern DT" - but you'll never escape the DT-isms. They'll always be there. That's their signature. Without them, the fans would complain. JP is going to use the Alex Lifeson chord a lot. That's just how it is. Jordan and JP is going to be trading solos. At 14 studio albums, there's simply going to be a way that DT just "are". They're not going to revolutionise the genre again. Leave that to bands like Leprous.

And yet, on this album, there's so much new that I've never heard DT done ever before. It's riff driven, it's heavy, it's melodic, it's proggy and drums and bass are often taking the driving role throughout songs. I love driving around to the album. I put it on when I work out.

[lonestar]

Please, don't leave it to Leprous.

[dream75]

I really don't understand the argument that everything post Portnoy is similar. and becoming generic.  ADTOE, DT12 and TA couldn't be more different albums. The sound, the mix, the song structure, the riff styles - everything is very different. I don't think there's a single album in DTs catalogue where I'd go "man, this is just a rehash of that album". Look at The Astonishing. It's full of chord changes and melodies that are very unique to DT - they'd never done it before. JP has even said he was very challenged by the album due to the complex chords that were so different from what he was used to.

Untethered Angel is the one track on D/T that sounds a bit like "modern DT" - but you'll never escape the DT-isms. They'll always be there. That's their signature. Without them, the fans would complain. JP is going to use the Alex Lifeson chord a lot. That's just how it is. Jordan and JP is going to be trading solos. At 14 studio albums, there's simply going to be a way that DT just "are". They're not going to revolutionise the genre again. Leave that to bands like Leprous.

And yet, on this album, there's so much new that I've never heard DT done ever before. It's riff driven, it's heavy, it's melodic, it's proggy and drums and bass are often taking the driving role throughout songs. I love driving around to the album. I put it on when I work out.

I totally agree 

[Bertielee]

I really don't understand the argument that everything post Portnoy is similar. and becoming generic.  ADTOE, DT12 and TA couldn't be more different albums. The sound, the mix, the song structure, the riff styles - everything is very different. I don't think there's a single album in DTs catalogue where I'd go "man, this is just a rehash of that album". Look at The Astonishing. It's full of chord changes and melodies that are very unique to DT - they'd never done it before. JP has even said he was very challenged by the album due to the complex chords that were so different from what he was used to.

Untethered Angel is the one track on D/T that sounds a bit like "modern DT" - but you'll never escape the DT-isms. They'll always be there. That's their signature. Without them, the fans would complain. JP is going to use the Alex Lifeson chord a lot. That's just how it is. Jordan and JP is going to be trading solos. At 14 studio albums, there's simply going to be a way that DT just "are". They're not going to revolutionise the genre again. Leave that to bands like Leprous.

And yet, on this album, there's so much new that I've never heard DT done ever before. It's riff driven, it's heavy, it's melodic, it's proggy and drums and bass are often taking the driving role throughout songs. I love driving around to the album. I put it on when I work out.

This has got me hyped for the new album even more. Sorry if I sounded like I didn't like modern DT, because I do. Maybe I don't like the band as much as before, but after 25 years following the band, It's  kinda normal and has to do with me as much as it has to do with them.
For me, ADToE and above all TA reinvigorated my faith in them. No Reason I won't like D/T given the "description" you made of it.

B.Lee

[KevShmev]

With all due respect to Mike Mangini, if the drums are taking the driving role in a lot of the new songs, I hope they are a little more fun and exciting than the ones in Untethered Angel.  Not that the drums in that song are bad by any means, but if you had told me that the drums in that song were programmed by the band on a drum machine (like what Devin Townsend did on his first Ziltoid record), I would have believed it.  At some point, I'd love to hear Mangini do his own thing back there instead of always staying in lock step with what the other band members are doing 99% of the time.

Please, don't leave it to Leprous.

My sentiments exactly.

[gzarruk]

“This sucks because it sounds like generic prog metal” So, are we faulting DT for sounding just like the genere they created and made popular? That doesn’t make sense to me. There might be other bands that have a similar sound, but they’re basically copying DT,  not the other way around.

[rumborak]

With all due respect to Mike Mangini, if the drums are taking the driving role in a lot of the new songs, I hope they are a little more fun and exciting than the ones in Untethered Angel.  Not that the drums in that song are bad by any means, but if you had told me that the drums in that song were programmed by the band on a drum machine (like what Devin Townsend did on his first Ziltoid record), I would have believed it.  At some point, I'd love to hear Mangini do his own thing back there instead of always staying in lock step with what the other band members are doing 99% of the time.

That sums up my feelings about the drums to the T, Kev. I actually spent some time trying to get behind what makes the drum track that way, and I think it's the fact that he is playing too much "for the song" (I realize that's an odd criticism, since most drummers get accused of not playing for the song). The snare is almost exclusively used to indicate the beat, and the bass drum mirrors the accents of the guitar and bass more often than not. Even the tom runs will fall hit-wise on the bass notes.
I think that approach somewhat robs the drums of their individuality.

[Mladen]

That's why one of my favorite sections is the one from 2:15. Mangini is in his own world compared to the rest of the guys.

[erwinrafael]

But that is Mangini's M.O. It's his drumming philosophy. Ever since Extreme and Steve Vai.

You are basically asking him to leave the band.

[Adami]

But that is Mangini's M.O. It's his drumming philosophy. Ever since Extreme and Steve Vai.

You are basically asking him to leave the band.

So you're saying Mangini has restricted himself to one very specific type of playing and is unable/unwilling to try anything beyond his comfort zone? And that asking him to is akin to asking him to leave the band?

[rumborak]

I also disagree that he's always played that way. Listen to his drumming on "No Respect" and "Leave Me Alone" by Extreme, I really like his drumming in those days.

[TAC]

Personally I think the drumming is amazing.

I hope the vocals sound better on the CD. I mean, it's a not a problem with James' performance, but the vocals really sound ..mechanical.

Not crazy how the final verse ends. Feels anticlimactic. I don't like that they went lower there. The last few measures seem to drag a bit and reminds me of the ending of ANTR.

[Bertielee]

But that is Mangini's M.O. It's his drumming philosophy. Ever since Extreme and Steve Vai.

You are basically asking him to leave the band.

So you're saying Mangini has restricted himself to one very specific type of playing and is unable/unwilling to try anything beyond his comfort zone? And that asking him to is akin to asking him to leave the band?

Yes, I don't see how criticizing MM's style would be akin to asking him to leave. Look, I prefer the band now to where they had come with MP, but I really miss what MP brought to the table. His style was looser and MM's style, while technically Superior, doesn't appeal to me as much because I find it more clinical. I'm not a drummer like you, Erwin (I think Adami is but I may be wrong) and I have to "feel" the drumming : in many cases, I don't feel MM's while I felt MP's practically all the time I heard him play.

B.Lee

[Adami]

I am a drummer of 21 years.


What MM does is VERY cool and wayyyyyy beyond my abilities. Though if I could become my own ideal drummer, MM's style would simply be one of many tools in my bag, as opposed to an entire philosophy of drumming.

Iced Earth had a similar issue for a few albums. They had a run of albums where the kick drum doubled almost every guitar chug. When done as an accent, it's super cool. But when done 99% of the time, it becomes flat, lacking dynamics, and boring.

[goo-goo]

I really don't understand the argument that everything post Portnoy is similar. and becoming generic.  ADTOE, DT12 and TA couldn't be more different albums. The sound, the mix, the song structure, the riff styles - everything is very different.

After SFAM, the writing changed and those albums after SFAM, have a very similar style all the way to Black Clouds. I do think creatively, the band was getting stale (or at least with MP producing). Aside from the production issues and the drum sounds, the Mangini era albums have been very different sounding. And the albums have been more song song focused. So I agree with noxon on this one.

I think JP (even with MP in the band) wanted a more concise approach in the song writing . Look at Wither. I can totally see Wither being in ADTOE or DT12. Same for These Walls and Endless Sacrifice. Those have JP written all over them (and yes, they were mostly written by him). It's just that with MP at the helm (and personality) it was a bit tough to sway away from the post SFAM DT sound/writing approach and the obligatory LTE/instrumental crazy sections, which some of them sound unnecessary and made the last MP albums sound a bit samey.

[erwinrafael]

I also disagree that he's always played that way. Listen to his drumming on "No Respect" and "Leave Me Alone" by Extreme, I really like his drumming in those days.

Relisten to those songs and tell me that his drumming is not locked to Pat Badger's bass for the entirety of the songs, with his drum rolls in No Respect not locking in with Nuno's shredding.

So you're saying Mangini has restricted himself to one very specific type of playing and is unable/unwilling to try anything beyond his comfort zone? And that asking him to is akin to asking him to leave the band?

Of course he can play several types of styles. Into The Great Divide is proof of that. The style in Egg Zooming is different from Elements of Persuasion, his Annihilator stuff, and his Dream Theater stuff. But he does have a specific drumming philosophy, and that is good drumming in a band means playing with the other instruments and supporting them. You can see that with how he modified the Images and Words' songs in the IW&B tour, how he's so giddy showing to fans how he modified parts to follow JP's guitar down the scale in Surrounded, and JP's fast runs in Metropolis and Learning to Live. He lives for those moments when he nails those parts locking in with what the rest of the band is doing. It basically defines what is Mangini about Mangini's drumming. It's the reason why I think he does not do the MP-style showboating at the end of Finally Free. I don't think it fits his philosophy of what sounds musical.

So yes, I stand by what I said. If you really want drumming that does not lock in with what the other instruments are doing, it's basically asking Mangini to leave. Because you are asking a 50-year old drummer to change his mind of what he thinks makes a good drum composition.

And everytime I read someone say one could basically program a drum machine to play like Mangini, I just laugh. Like, you would really come up with how Mangini wrote the drum part from 3:25-3:35 of Untethered Angel?

[Bertielee]

For my part, I never thought MM played like a drum machine. Like you said, Erwin, good luck to try and program some of MM's parts. Once again, I mostly don't "feel" his drumming, I don't say it's not good, it's not exactly to my liking. But I can appreciate what he does for what it is, simply not as much as what MP did.

B.Lee

[Adami]

I'll go check out that part to see. But you're missing the point. We're not saying every single beat/fill can be EASILY programmed by anyone. We're saying his general style sounds like someone programmed it because it's such a predictable approach. Do what the other guys do. Double it. Of course there are exceptions, but those prove the rule.


But to your other point, I get that you really identify, admire, and even love Mangini's philosophy. We get what he does, and you don't need to continuously explain what he's doing. Those of us who don't connect to it aren't going to suddenly connect to it.

However, I wanted to point out that even though we do seem to focus on MM, this applies to everyone in the band. JM gets ragged on (or did) when he was simply doubling what JP did.

JP and JR get flack for doing "DT by numbers" pretty often as well.

MP gets endless crap for "same back of tricks" criticisms.

So while this conversation focuses on MM, he's not the only one who gets this criticism. But when enough people say the exact same thing, they're not all wrong. They just don't always dig what he does. And that's cool.

[robwebster]

I've listened to Untethered Angel a few times now (Five? Six?) and been a bit disappointed. The first verse sounds like the first verse of Outcry. The chorus is a bit limp, bit weak. Riffs are muddy. Wasn't doing it for me.

Until, on this latest listen, it just... clicked! I suddenly like the chorus, the riffs feel more lively, I'm buying what it's selling. And - with the caveat that I don't know what comes next (obviously) - I like it as an intro to an album.

I'm... relieved, if anything! I'd never been so cold on a DT lead single before; I loved ARoP, which I'd probably say is the weakest, all things equal. Glad to be on the page, again.

[Adami]

Also listened to that 3:25-3:35 part.

Yes, that could have been programmed to the point where the difference is only noticeable to people studying the parts. Easily. That's a key indicator of an issue though. You're (Erwin) analyzing which drum he's hitting at which time. Most people just notice that he's playing the guitar part on the snare(s).

[Peace and Love]

My opinion on the drums following the rhythms of the other instruments falls somewhere in between what's been expressed here. I think it gets boring when the drums do it all the time, but when used sparingly it's a great compositional technique. For example, in Metallica's song One, when Lars introduces the "machine gun" pattern a few measures before the guitars join in - that type of "musical foreshadowing" is highly effective.

Coming to Untethered Angel itself, I think the song is absolutely kickass - a solid 8.5/10 song that makes me tremendously excited for the album!

[Kyo]

I don't have a problem with Mangini's playing on this track, but I do generally agree that by doubling so many of the others' parts ("orchestrating", as he calls it) he wastes a lot of opportunities to create original, substantial and memorable drum parts. I keep wishing that he'd heed what Miles Davis used to say: "Don't play what's there. Play what's not there". One of the most obvious cases where that would be good advice.

[WilliamMunny]

I also disagree that he's always played that way. Listen to his drumming on "No Respect" and "Leave Me Alone" by Extreme, I really like his drumming in those days.

Waiting for the Punchline is such an underrated album...I freaking love that record!

[KevShmev]

I'll go check out that part to see. But you're missing the point. We're not saying every single beat/fill can be EASILY programmed by anyone. We're saying his general style sounds like someone programmed it because it's such a predictable approach. Do what the other guys do. Double it. Of course there are exceptions, but those prove the rule.

This!

And to all, yes, I get that this is Mangini's style and it is not going to change. 

And I am obviously not one of those "bring Portnoy back!" people (the ones who do that constantly on FB need to get the hell over it), as I think the good has massively outweighed the bad since late 2010.  Heck, Mangini is just as fun and enthusiastic to watch live as Portnoy was with Dream Theater, and as a non-musician, I am sure almost everything he does is completely over my head , but I am just saying, as a listener, his drum parts often sound, for lack of a better term, too stiff.  I rarely get the impression that he is just letting loose and rocking out and who cares if every single hit is perfectly on point, accents the instrument it should, etc. 

[Nefarius]

Second listen: This time on good earbuds. The relentless oversaturation of the lows continues to feel taxing just like it does since it started over a decade ago, though luckily it's not quite as exhausting as the almost unlistenable CD master of the selftitled album.

The vocal effects take all focus away from the already not very catchy melody line and only add to that damp blanket vibe. As a singer I very much feel for James, I would guess he hated it. I've experienced the frustration of trying to add to an already saturated instrumental frequency spectrum myself and it's inevitably pointless to expect anything rewarding.

I will change to very neutral studio headphones without any overemphasis on the lows for the next listen and hope for at least some of the fog to clear.

Greetings...
Nef

[King Postwhore]

I also disagree that he's always played that way. Listen to his drumming on "No Respect" and "Leave Me Alone" by Extreme, I really like his drumming in those days.

Groove and swing to his playing.

[Dream Team]

All I want from DT drums is cool, creative rhythms like MP composed on the first 6 albums. Don’t need machine-gun fills or polymeters in 17/16 and 23/8. Oh and it’s nice if you can hear the drums clearly as well.

[Kocak]

All I want from DT drums is cool, creative rhythms like MP composed on the first 6 albums. Don’t need machine-gun fills or polymeters in 17/16 and 23/8. Oh and it’s nice if you can hear the drums clearly as well.

I also want a good mix. A recent example would be Soen. Their single Martyrs is a great example.

[Sebastián Pratesi]

Therefore I'm not going to be doing what I did for previous releases.

Oh, I can help you with that! I'm not remotely as close to the band as you are, so I don't have a problem listening to an unreleased song and writing some comments. Let me know!

Look at The Astonishing. It's full of chord changes and melodies that are very unique to DT - they'd never done it before. JP has even said he was very challenged by the album due to the complex chords that were so different from what he was used to.

Interesting. Do you have any examples that come to mind? Maybe the instrumental intro in "Begin again"?