Were We Spoiled by Portnoy's Overplaying?

[erwinrafael]

There are a lot of aspects that make for a well-structured epic:
1. Is there an overall arc to the song or is it just thrown together cool bits?
2. Are the transitions between the sections good?
3. Do the various sections share musical material in a meaningful way?
4. Do the lyrics match the development of the music?
5. Do the lyrics form a coherent whole or are they thrown together from various bits?

Everyone's favorite Octavarium barely even tries when it comes to point 5. Six Degrees hardly fares better. That's what's bound to happen if you just write lots of music first and then split lyricist duties among a number of people with just a very broad theme to link them. A Nightmare to Remember fails hilariously when it comes to point 4. The Ministry of Lost Souls isn't any better, though it is less amusing in its mismatch. Many of DT's epics don't do particularly well when it comes to point 3 (A Change of Seasons, In the Presence of Enemies, The Count of Tuscany, Illumination Theory...).

Compared to (IMO) true masterpieces like Spock's Beard's At the End of the Day or Andromeda's Veil of Illumination it is obvious that DT tend to throw their epics together pretty quickly from unrelated material rather than develop some core material into something bigger. I often like the results anyway, but let's not pretend this approach is the pinnacle of songwriting.

I will derail this thread further, but I would like to support my case that Illumination Theory is a cohesive piece to counter your argument that the various sections do not share musical material in a meaningful way. Reposting my analysis of the structure of Illumination Theory from way back 2014, which has not changed:

IT is very cohesive for me because of the symmetry of the song.

Section 1: Paradox of the Black Light. Slow, majestic, a bit heavy so it is not yet "illuminated". This is an overture to the un-illuminated sections of the song.

Section 2: The heavy riffing section. At first this seems to be just a wanky instrumental but it actually acts as a bridge between Section 1 and Section 3. This serves an important narrative function once we get to the later sections. Note also that it is mostly a standard rocking beat, with some time signature changes only at the end upon approaching the Live, Die, Kill section.

Section 3: Live, Die Kill. The section poses the questions: What are you willing to live for? to die for? to kill for? It is asking for "an answer that begs to be found". The section has two subsections: the first has lyrics playing to a main riff, the second is the instrumental section that has plenty of time signature changes.

Section 4: Embracing Circle, ambient section. If Live, Die, Kill referred to a more down-to-earth plane of existence, to grounded reality, the Embracing Circle is situated in a transcendental plane. The ambient section is formless and lengthy, which signifies that the questions posed in Live, Die, Kill remain unanswered even in a moment of transcendence and it remains quite unanswered for a long time. The length of the section is important because it serves the narrative function of indicating that illumination or enlightenment does not come easily.

BREAK in the Narrative: Now we start to mirror the previous sections.

Section 5: Embracing Circle, orchestral section. This mirrors Section 4. We are still in the transcendental plane, but unlike Section 4, illumination starts to creep in slowly with the build up of the orchestral part. Illumination climaxes with a moment of enlightenment, signified by the orchestral version of the intro melody. It sort of mirrors Section 1 as well. The end of the orchestral section is an overture to the "illuminated" section of the song, The Pursuit of Truth. It will not serve its proper narrative function if it is placed at the start, because the more heavy-sounding music of Paradox of the Black Light  better fits as an introduction to the "un-illuminated" Live, Die and Kill section. The two overtures share the same melody.

Section 6. The Pursuit of Truth. This mirrors Section 3. The section starts with reverse swells, which signals a return from the transcendental plane to grounded reality. After the moment of enlightenment in The Embracing Circle, the song now has answers to the questions posed in Live, Die, Kill.  What are mothers willing to live, die and kill for? Their children. Husbands are willing to live, die and kill for their wives. Martyrs are willing to live die and kill for the kingdom. And so on and so forth. The Pursuit of Truth answers the questions of Live, Die, Kill. Still mirroring Section 3, the section also has two subsections: the first has lyrics playing to a main riff, the second is the instrumental section that has plenty of time signature changes.

Section 7: The heavy riffing section. This mirrors Section 2. It follows the same structure and uses the same riff! This serves as a bridge between Section 6 and Section 8. While Section 2 bridged the Paradox to the questions, Section 7 bridged the answers to the Paradox. Like Section 2, this section has a lot of wanky instrumentals and plays to a standard rocking beat, with a change in the tempo at the end approaching the Surrender, Trust and Passion section.

Section 8. Surrender, Trust and Passion. And now we have come full circle. This mirrors Section 1. Section 8 is also slow and majestic, but unlike Section 1, it is uplifting because illumination has already been achieved. Section 1 is titled the Paradox of the Black Light, and the lyrics in Section 8 spell out the paradox. And if I overanalyze the lyrics, even the lyrics here are symmetrical. LOL

Introduce with a paradox:
"To really feel the joy in life
You must suffer through the pain"

Surrender: Lyrics refer to illumination by referencing light.
"When you surrender to the light
You can face the darkest days"

Trust: Middle section, still in keeping the visuality of the Illumination Theory, we refer to opening one's eyes.
"If you open up your eyes
And you put your trust in love
On those cold and endless nights
You will never be alone"

Passion: Mirror the Surrender subsection. Lyrics refer to illumination by referencing bright.
"Passion glows within your heart
Like a furnace burning bright"

Mirror the intro. End with a paradox:
"Until you struggle through the dark
You'll never know that you're alive"

And as one more bit of analysis, which may be stretching a bit. Paradox of the Black Light started with a crescendo drum roll. Surrender, Trust and Passion ends with a decrescendo drum roll.

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This is how I viewed IT. Which is why I don't think I will really understand how it can be described as disjointed. It is very cohesive not just lyrically but structurally as well. The disjoint that some people feel, I think, is because the narrative of the song is really about transitioning from dark to light but ending up in a paradox where light is in the darkness. There is a deliberate disjointedness, from grounded to transcendent, from fast to slow parts. The transitions serve a narrative function.

[bosk1]

^Yup.  I love that.  It took awhile for Illumination Theory to click for me.  But once I understood what it was doing, I then understood that it does it incredibly well.  It really is a masterfully done, intensely creative piece of music.  Whether it ultimately works for any given listener is another matter entirely.  But it is very well done and very well structured--perhaps moreso than any of mega-epics they have done.

[bill1971]

Quote from: erwinrafael on February 21, 2014, 06:56:54 PM

Wow, great write up of IT. Love that song

[RAIN]

Warning: rant ahead. Decided to put on DT12 yesterday, and it still doesn't excite me like other DT albums do. I know all the tunes at this point, I've warmed up to the first few tracks, but the rest is just OK or samey, but decent metal tunes. I really don't like the closing epic, it's not well put together, but it has a lot of cool parts. It's a heavy riffy song that has these two sections of music in the middle that do not belong, with a nice secret ending which should have been longer. It is a big red flag that Portnoy was the master arranger in the music. Even now with DOT, and I like the new album, there are still these moments of technicality for the sake of it, or crazy time signatures everywhere, without regard to how it affects the flow of the song. Same with ADTOE which I also enjoy. It's why I don't think Planet X is super amazing, at least a full album of them, it's all head music with a dash of jazz thrown in. I still also hear moments in DOT where it's like "oh that's a thing they do now" whether it's chord progression choices, or whatnot.

It has nothing to do with 'influences on their sleeves' as we still get that during the Mangini era. I think MP was the filter and arranger, and I still think nothing released since BC&SL is "great". All IMO of course. There's been some good tunes for sure, but I think I still would have been fine with a 5-6 year break instead of getting the last 4 albums, even as I still am in the honeymoon phase of the new album. Imagine the band came back last year with all the ideas they came up with over the past 9 years (all the raw material from ADTOE-DT12-TA-DOT mixed with ideas MP would have, and I don't think he'd be as much about bringing in extreme metal or U2 influences at this point) to make a massive album that would probably have competed with I&W or Six Degrees but with MP on drums. I think the one individual album would be better than the combined forces of the last 4 albums.

The thing with Mangini is he's a tech-metal drummer whereas MP is a prog-rock/metal drummer who had more creative control over the music than just about any other drummer I can think of, and I think that changes a lot of aspects of Dream Theater that I always thought were more unique to the band than other bands out there, prog, rock, metal, or otherwise. Losing Kevin Moore was tough on the band's sound, because he had a styles you don't find in keyboardists post-early 90s, but early Rudess was great. I think after 8vm they just all went through the motions, though. That, and trying to be 'current' messed up their sound. I would have rather the band totally reinvent their sound instead of pushing for the modern metal sound they went for on SC, or the "return to roots" style of the last few albums, which I don't think is accurate anyway as the music now is darker, more brooding. Sure they've brought in lighter, more melodic, major key stuff back on recent albums, but at best it reminds me of that kind of stuff from Six Degrees, not I&W or Awake. But I want the band to be progressive. They don't have to reinvent the wheel or anything, but the last few albums seem"regressive" or just a mix-and-match of what they had been doing with Portnoy on the last couple of albums with him. The Astonishing wasn't this, we can talk further on that if you want. Anyway, I ranted too long, no time to edit.

That's no rant, and you really worded alot of how I feel about post MP.  Especially the "doesn't excite me" as much or at all...nailed it.
Well done.  It was a polite insight.

[Dedalus]

There are a lot of aspects that make for a well-structured epic:
1. Is there an overall arc to the song or is it just thrown together cool bits?
2. Are the transitions between the sections good?
3. Do the various sections share musical material in a meaningful way?
4. Do the lyrics match the development of the music?
5. Do the lyrics form a coherent whole or are they thrown together from various bits?

Very interesting list.

I have no problem with different parts that apparently seem to be conflicting in a song, overall.
Creating tension or conflict is part of an artistic manifestation. Many have complained about the two distinct parts in FITL, but the idea seems to me to be just that. Create a kind of counterpoint.
Sometimes it works for me, sometimes it doesn't. In general, no complaints.



Erwinrafaels: congrats for analysis. You nailed it. Amazing job.

[Kyo]

I didn't say IT is incoherent, I said it doesn't do particularly well when it comes to the various sections sharing musical material. The above analysis is interesting, but it actually supports my point: The only two shared bits that are mentioned are the opening theme returning during the orchestral section and the first riff later reappearing as backing for solos. For a 19-minute piece that is really not a whole lot of shared musical material.

[bosk1]

I didn't say IT is incoherent, I said it doesn't do particularly well when it comes to the various sections sharing musical material.

Right.  But it doesn't have to.  It isn't trying to do that.  It's like saying Master of Puppets doesn't do particularly well when it comes to being a rap song.  It's a silly comparison because it isn't remotely trying to be that.

[erwinrafael]

But structure is also musical material! The fact that there is a tight mirroring structure for me is already a lot of material shared.

Then there is Mangini's hi-hats, cymbals, and snare pattern in the beginning of Section 1 being repeated with a slight variation in the final part of Section 8. You can see this clearly in the BTFW video. But that's too nerdy already. 

[Kyo]

But structure is also musical material! The fact that there is a tight mirroring structure for me is already a lot of material shared.

I disagree about the first sentence, but even if I didn't, the structure isn't really as "tight(ly) mirroring" as you claim. The idea with the two halves is interesting, but to get to that point you're basically flattening a lot of it down to "here's a vocal section, then comes a wanky instrumental section". But the two main vocal sections are quite different in structure themselves - the first is verse, verse, chorus, unrelated new verse, chorus, new vocal section that isn't repeated. The second is three verses into a new vocal section that isn't repeated. So they're not a mirror of each other structurally. The instrumental bits that follow the vocal parts also quite different in structure. Yes, lyrically the song has a cool "questions - development - answers" structure in the middle and these bits are bookended by the same riff, but despite your claim, the ending doesn't actually connect to the opening musically. Honestly, I don't even really see how it connects to the rest of the song lyrically. Rather than anything "coming full circle" it all just seems tagged on to have a big ending section. Sure, they *named* the instrumental opening theme "paradoxe de la lumière noire" which you can connect to the lyrics of the ending, but that's just a sleight of hand.

But if someone can point out shared musical material that I've missed, I'm all ears! I enjoy these discussions.