Why did Queen lose the States in the 80's?

[jammindude]

Two words

HOT. SPACE.

The hit single didn’t matter. They had been a “NO SYNTH” band for 10 years, and within the span of 2 albums, had gone disco. And the timing was horrible...because it came out 2 years after America had declared war on disco. The backlash was severe and completely unavoidable.

Heck, Americans couldn’t even forgive Iron Maiden for using synths 4 years later! They certainly weren’t going to give Queen a pass.

Anyone who wasn’t there has no idea. There was a HUGE hatred for synthesizers in the early 80s by nearly every longhair in the country.

[Mladen]

So what did the Americans listen to in the early 80s? I have a feeling that synts were particularly huge at that point.

[Cyclopssss]

Yeah. Hot Space was BAD. Must say they repaired the damage rather quickly after that.

[PowerSlave]

So what did the Americans listen to in the early 80s? I have a feeling that synts were particularly huge at that point.

Priest, Maiden, Ozzy and Dio were all huge for the metal fans at that point. Then, of course, there was Quiet Riot and Motley Crue 

[TAC]

In terms of hard rock, I would say that AC/DC and Van Halen were probably the most popular bands in the early 80's.

Probably around 1983, you really started to see lines develop between the different hard rock genres.

[DragonAttack]

Two words

HOT. SPACE.

This...and a lot of what followed.

I had just graduated college and had a dozen friends over to celebrate.  Purchased the LP the night before to share as well at a 'listening party' which we did with various bands' new releases (tastes ranged from AC/DC, KISS, Van Halen, Zeppelin, Rush, Styx, Cars, Seger, etc to The Eagles with Return to Forever and Jeff Beck and Stanley Clarke thrown in the mix).  OMFG......the looks of the faces in the room after 'Staying Power' (including mine) at which point I turned the volume down, and we all still had to suffer through the rest of Side One.  I wasn't sure about flipping it over, but bravely and reluctantly did so.  That proved to be a relief, but a very 'by the numbers' track list.

Ten of us saw them a few months later at Joe Louis Arena.  Still a great show, but the set list was quite dreadful (unlike the Milton Keynes show available on CD and DVD from June 82).  Billy Squier opened, put on yet another great show, and sadly....many exited before the headliners.  Fifteen years later, I had a bootleg tape in my hands.  After Brian's guitar solo, they played 'Body Language'.  You could audibly hear the excitement get sucked out of the arena at that point.

I have listened to Side One straight through only one time since the first week I purchased the album.....and that was because I lost a bet.

[jammindude]

This is just a small taste of the hatred for disco in this country in the late 70s early 80s.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disco_Demolition_Night

[Stadler]

Jammin's 95% right, in my opinion, but it wasn't JUST the disco angle; there was a yearning for something more.   I can remember  standing at the busstop in high school - this is '81, '82 - and you either had the Rush "star" on your books, or the stylized "AC/DC" or the stylized "Ozzy".   My buddy and I used to make glass "signs" - take a piece of glass, spray paint one side, 'carve' out a band name or logo from the paint so it reads right from the other side, throw it into a cheap stained wood frame, and sell them for I think it was $5.00.    I was decent at art, so I did the logos, my buddy did the construction part, and we did okay.   I can tell you we sold a shit ton of Ozzy and AC/DC, a medium amount of VH, Kiss and Rush, an oddball here and there of Maiden and Def Leppard (they were still opening acts then)...  and not one single Queen.   

They were too rock for the "Duran Duran"/"MTV"/"REM" crowd, and they were too "p***y" for the metal crowd.   My experience is probably very colored by the fact I was in high school - which means there was no room for being flexible or for ambiguity - but Queen just wasn't on the radar.   I know that for many people, their performance at Live Aid is what led to any lingering love for Queen.   There wouldn't likely have been "BoRhap" in Wayne's World if it wasn't for them destroying Live Aid (and make no mistake, that's what they did). 

[Cruithne]

Bohemian Rhapsody was in Wayne's World because that scene was based on Mike Myers' childhood.

https://www.rollingstone.com/movies/movie-features/the-oral-history-of-the-waynes-world-bohemian-rhapsody-scene-53044/

I don't think Live Aid had anything to do with it, as such.

[pg1067]

Still seems like a weird phenomenon, where Queen got so much bigger everywhere in the world in the 80's, while their popularity dwindled here in the States.

What are the reasons?

Well...I was alive, but not yet a fan of popular music, so I don't have any real personal perspective on this.

In terms of chart positions, things steadily increased for Queen from the debut album in 1973 through The Game in 1980 (83, 49, 12, 4, 5, 3, 6, 1).  Queen and Sheer Heart Attack went Gold in the U.S.; the next five albums (A Night at the Opera through The Game) all went at least Platinum (3x, 1x, 4x, 1x, 4x).

Starting with the Flash Gordon soundtrack, none of Queen's albums charted higher than #22 or sold better than Gold (although the single for "Under Pressure" was certified 2x Platinum in the U.S.).

Flash Gordon was a pretty terrible movie, so I imagine that didn't help the band.  But I think the real downfall was the video for "I Want to Break Free."  I think that video alienated a lot of Queen's "hard rock" fan base who, with the surge of metal in the early 80s, weren't at all on board with a band dressing up like women.  I think the band also suffered a fair amount of anti-gay backlash.  I recall my best friend's older brother referring to "Freddie the faggot" and telling us that all of the members of Queen were "fags."

MTV didn't play a ton of Queen.  "Under Pressure" was in heavy rotation for a while, but I recall it not being a particularly interesting video.  IWTBF and "Radio Ga Ga" got heavy play initially, but that didn't last with the negative reception of the former.

They got a little bump with A Kind of Magic and the movie Highlander, but that was a rather fringe movie, so it wasn't a big bump.

If I had to sum it up, I think 80s Queen wasn't "new wave" enough to garner a big pop following, and, despite having a few hard rocking songs, wasn't "rock" enough to earn a spot during the heyday of metal.

I can't help but wonder too if their resurgence in America after Freddie's death would have been as big without Wayne's World giving Bohemian Rhapsody a second life.

Agree.

[pg1067]

So what did the Americans listen to in the early 80s? I have a feeling that synts were particularly huge at that point.

For perspective:  I started high school (a Catholic school) in 1981 and graduated in 1985.  At my school and societally, there was a HUGE rift between fans of hard rock/metal and those who liked new wave/pop rock.  As others have noted, while synths were integral to new wave bands, they were a huge pariah among the hard rock/metal fans.  Interestingly, Rush seemed to get a pass on this issue -- probably because they had already established keyboards as a significant part of their sound in the late 70s.  At my school, the metal crowd was severely outnumbered, and I think that contributed significantly to me not enjoying my high school years very much.  We literally avoided befriending people because of the type of music they liked (or that we perceived by their look that they liked).  Even among the metal kids, statements like, "if you like [such and such band], then you're not a TROOOOOO metal fan!" got thrown around a lot.

[Stadler]

I'm not naive to the gay stuff, and certainly Billy Squier's "Rock Me Tonite" is a data point here, but at the same time, you had Human League and Kaja Goo Goo and all that stuff coming out of England at the time that WAS catching on...   I think it was less that than just... we aren't that eclectic a nation.   What are the rock bands that we love?   The Eagles, AC/DC, Van Halen, Springsteen, Aerosmith... not that they aren't viable, legitimate artists, but none of those bands have a catalogue as quirky and eccentric as Queen's.   Bowie is the ony one that comes even close.    Hell, I'd like to think I'm open minded, and I'm certainly a Queen fan, but even me... my biggest criticism of A Night At The Opera?  It's all over the fuckin' map.  I don't want to go from "Seaside Rendezvous" to "The Prophets Song" to "Love Of My Life".   And that's not even the best example (which is probably "A Day At The Races" or "Jazz").   

At least where I was (Northeast) even BoRhap wasn't iconic then. In the late 70's, early 80's I used to listen to WICC  600 on my little AM transistor radio at night, and they'd play what you'd expect:   Baker Street, December '63, Dream Weaver... and the only Queen that would be played was "Another One Bites The Dust".   The year end song "countdowns"?   The top three would shuffle but it was always these three: Stairway, Freebird, Hotel California. 

EDIT: As for Rush, it wasn't "just" keyboards; it was the type of keyboards.  Rush was always a guitar-based band even with the keys present.  Tom Sawyer isn't a quintessential "keyboard" song.  And even when they were more typical - "Jump" - they were played by Eddie Fuckin' Van Halen!  On a shelf!  Like a guitar!    Brian May - at that time - was not considered in the same league as EVH and the guitar gods of the '80's. 

[hefdaddy42]

Flash Gordon was a pretty terrible movie

[King Postwhore]

pg1067 never watched it while playing a drinking game before.  It's amazing.

[DragonAttack]

pg1067 never watched it while playing a drinking game before.  It's amazing.

Yup....though we called it 'F*ck' instead of 'Flash', because it was 'oh, f*ck', gotta take another drink.

[cramx3]

.........wildranger?

Alright Kev, how old are you and where are you from? 

[King Postwhore]

.........wildranger?

Alright Kev, how old are you and where are you from? 

Kev is the original ODP.

Old Dirty Poster

[pg1067]

I'm not naive to the gay stuff, and certainly Billy Squier's "Rock Me Tonite" is a data point here, but at the same time, you had Human League and Kaja Goo Goo and all that stuff coming out of England at the time that WAS catching on...   I think it was less that than just... we aren't that eclectic a nation.   What are the rock bands that we love?   The Eagles, AC/DC, Van Halen, Springsteen, Aerosmith... not that they aren't viable, legitimate artists, but none of those bands have a catalogue as quirky and eccentric as Queen's.   Bowie is the ony one that comes even close.    Hell, I'd like to think I'm open minded, and I'm certainly a Queen fan, but even me... my biggest criticism of A Night At The Opera?  It's all over the fuckin' map.  I don't want to go from "Seaside Rendezvous" to "The Prophets Song" to "Love Of My Life".   And that's not even the best example (which is probably "A Day At The Races" or "Jazz").   

At least where I was (Northeast) even BoRhap wasn't iconic then. In the late 70's, early 80's I used to listen to WICC  600 on my little AM transistor radio at night, and they'd play what you'd expect:   Baker Street, December '63, Dream Weaver... and the only Queen that would be played was "Another One Bites The Dust".   The year end song "countdowns"?   The top three would shuffle but it was always these three: Stairway, Freebird, Hotel California. 

EDIT: As for Rush, it wasn't "just" keyboards; it was the type of keyboards.  Rush was always a guitar-based band even with the keys present.  Tom Sawyer isn't a quintessential "keyboard" song.  And even when they were more typical - "Jump" - they were played by Eddie Fuckin' Van Halen!  On a shelf!  Like a guitar!    Brian May - at that time - was not considered in the same league as EVH and the guitar gods of the '80's.

I think the gay bashing stuff was very significant, but that's nothing but a perception.  And yes, all of the new wave bands were very effeminate, and I'm sure it was the case in the northeast as it was in SoCal that stuff like "those bands are so fucking gay" and "they're a bunch of fags" was commonplace.  But Queen didn't appeal to the crowd that liked new wave because they were a rock band, and they alienated the hard rock crowd that was starting to gravitate more toward metal.  And yes, it's very inconsistent when you consider bands like Motley Crue and Twisted Sister, but those bands had a hard rock attitude that belied their looks.

I agree, though, that Queen was very eclectic and that Queen wasn't really held in the same regard as after the early 90s and the current resurgences.

And yes, you and I have long been in agreement that the "type" or sound of Rush's post-Signals keyboards/synths were a far bigger problem than the fact that keyboards were prevalent.  Use Signals type keyboard patches on GUP, fix the guitar sound and make the drums better and GUP might be a significantly better album.

[Samsara]

Hot Space did have Under Pressure, which was a huge hit, but then again, the video was totally forgettable. Makes me wonder if a memorable video could have made a big difference.  MTV exploded in the early 80's and you had to either get on the train or get left behind.

Yes..

If you don't tour fans lose interest.   So after a poor album Hot Space, they stopped touring North America.

The confluence lead to the lack of interest.

..and yes.


I don't even remember the video to Under pressure, and I was watching. I do remember seeing Radio Gaga on MTV, but it was such a crappy song. I mean, WTF was that?

The only other thing I remember was One Vision, which frankly, paled to the true hard rock that was being played at the time.

I was totally late to the Queen scene. Wait... 

Uh, what I mean is, I didn't listen to Queen until the last decade, at least with any regularity. I remember We Are the Champions on the radio back in the day, but the first video I remember seeing was Bohemian. And it was cool, but weird. LOL.  I can't really add to this, other than to say, I totally dug One Vision. And still do. IRON FUCKING EAGLE! 

Ok, today is my Friday, so I'm gonna go do what middle aged old metal dudes do...fall asleep on the couch. Later!

[cramx3]

I can't help but wonder too if their resurgence in America after Freddie's death would have been as big without Wayne's World giving Bohemian Rhapsody a second life.

Not even close.

True, not just Wayne's World, but songs like "We Will Rock You" and "We Are The Champions" are/were staples at sporting events especially when I was a kid in the 90s.  The Wayne's World scene is one of the best songs in music scenes I can think of and that was my introduction to the band, but those "jock jam" type songs were also a big exposure for Queen, but I don't recall knowing those and knowing who Queen was until after Wayne's World.

[KevShmev]

Two words

HOT. SPACE.

The hit single didn’t matter. They had been a “NO SYNTH” band for 10 years, and within the span of 2 albums, had gone disco. And the timing was horrible...because it came out 2 years after America had declared war on disco. The backlash was severe and completely unavoidable.

Heck, Americans couldn’t even forgive Iron Maiden for using synths 4 years later! They certainly weren’t going to give Queen a pass.

Anyone who wasn’t there has no idea. There was a HUGE hatred for synthesizers in the early 80s by nearly every longhair in the country.

Then how do you explain the massive popularity of Tom Sawyer?

[TAC]

Here's a great site:

https://www.queenconcerts.com/live/queen.html

Seems they just stopped coming to the US.

[Setlist Scotty]

Two words

HOT. SPACE.

The hit single didn’t matter. They had been a “NO SYNTH” band for 10 years, and within the span of 2 albums, had gone disco. And the timing was horrible...because it came out 2 years after America had declared war on disco. The backlash was severe and completely unavoidable.

Heck, Americans couldn’t even forgive Iron Maiden for using synths 4 years later! They certainly weren’t going to give Queen a pass.

Anyone who wasn’t there has no idea. There was a HUGE hatred for synthesizers in the early 80s by nearly every longhair in the country.

Then how do you explain the massive popularity of Tom Sawyer?

I think pg1067 already gave a legitimate explanation:

As others have noted, while synths were integral to new wave bands, they were a huge pariah among the hard rock/metal fans.  Interestingly, Rush seemed to get a pass on this issue -- probably because they had already established keyboards as a significant part of their sound in the late 70s.

Now that I think about it, not only had they used keyboards in the 70s, but they were not one of these bands like Maiden or Queen that swore up and down to never use keyboards. You make that claim and then do a complete about face, and it's bound to anger the fans.

[KevShmev]

Fair point, but I wonder if it was really the synths or the overtly pop nature of the music.  Hot Space would have been forgiven by most had the next album been a return to form, but The Works features mostly drum beats and rhythms most would describe as more pop than rock.  I can imagine the average Queen rock fan waiting to hear something new after the disaster that was Hot Space and then wanting to vomit the second they heard the opening beat of Radio Ga-Ga.

[Cyclopssss]

I grew up in the late '70's and mid 80's and listened to almost everything and Queen was just always there. I first heard Bohrap on a single  then when I heard the full album version I went ah-Ha! But I've noticed, even with the new movie, everybody's talking about Bohemian Rhapsody being so 'Out there' and it is, but let's just talk about 'Prophet's Song' and 'Death on two legs' for a while, shall well? I mean, HELLO!  That whole middle-section of Prophet's Song is probably wayyyy more experimental then Bohrap. And the piano intro to DOTL is pure classical. The rest of the album, as someone mentioned, is all over the place stylistically. My first real listen to Queen was Live Killers and it was a kick in the teeth. The raw energy, the musicality of them. It just fit together so well. I sort of lost them with Hot Space and Flash, but went to see them live when they released Kind of Magic and they just kicked f' in ASS. I only started listening to the heavier stuff when I heard Rainbow, then Van Halen, then Judas Priest and then, Maiden. Boom. That was it. But the love for Queen always stayed though.

[DragonAttack]

I can imagine the average Queen rock fan waiting to hear something new after the disaster that was Hot Space and then wanting to vomit the second they heard the opening beat of Radio Ga-Ga.

Yup.  The next 5+ minutes aren't that great either.

The live versions on 'Wembley' and especially 'Live Aid' (since it's shorter) are harder edged, much more up tempo and fun to listen to on occasion, but I don't include the song on my version of 'The Works'. 

[Stadler]

Two words

HOT. SPACE.

The hit single didn’t matter. They had been a “NO SYNTH” band for 10 years, and within the span of 2 albums, had gone disco. And the timing was horrible...because it came out 2 years after America had declared war on disco. The backlash was severe and completely unavoidable.

Heck, Americans couldn’t even forgive Iron Maiden for using synths 4 years later! They certainly weren’t going to give Queen a pass.

Anyone who wasn’t there has no idea. There was a HUGE hatred for synthesizers in the early 80s by nearly every longhair in the country.

Then how do you explain the massive popularity of Tom Sawyer?

I think pg1067 already gave a legitimate explanation:

As others have noted, while synths were integral to new wave bands, they were a huge pariah among the hard rock/metal fans.  Interestingly, Rush seemed to get a pass on this issue -- probably because they had already established keyboards as a significant part of their sound in the late 70s.

Now that I think about it, not only had they used keyboards in the 70s, but they were not one of these bands like Maiden or Queen that swore up and down to never use keyboards. You make that claim and then do a complete about face, and it's bound to anger the fans.

I tried to address this as well; Rush even at that point was a guitar band.  Red Barchetta and Limelight were just as big in the northeast as Tom Sawyer.   Plus, Neil Peart; that drum part in TS is as iconic as any drum part short of "In The Air Tonight".   Rush was also the world's biggest niche band as well; they hit a new level of popularity around... I'll say (though we can argue this) right after the turn of the millenium, but back in the 80's, they were the world's largest club band playing arenas.  The joke was the audience was 99% male, and the girls that were there were there under duress.   They CERTAINLY were not at the level of Van Halen, AC/DC or even Kiss.   Only two Rush albums are more than Platinum - 2112 at 3x and Moving Pictures at 4x - whereas you have AC/DC, where EVERY album from the first through For Those About To Rock are MULTI-platinum (this is amazing to me:  EVERY album of theirs - even the latter day ones - are at LEAST platinum, except for Rock Or Bust. That is insane.)  Van Halen:  every album through Balance is MULTI platinum, with two Diamond records (10 million or more sales). 

[King Postwhore]

I think everybody here is looking into something that's not the reason.

They had a poor album.  After that, with Freddie's health, they only toured Europe.  When you don't tour an area, people lose interest.  It's never one thing but how this lined up was the answer.

[KevShmev]

I can imagine the average Queen rock fan waiting to hear something new after the disaster that was Hot Space and then wanting to vomit the second they heard the opening beat of Radio Ga-Ga.

Yup.  The next 5+ minutes aren't that great either.

The live versions on 'Wembley' and especially 'Live Aid' (since it's shorter) are harder edged, much more up tempo and fun to listen to on occasion, but I don't include the song on my version of 'The Works'.

I hear that. I never listen to the studio version of Radio Ga-Ga, but whenever I watch Live at Wembley, I enjoy the heck out it.

I tried to address this as well; Rush even at that point was a guitar band.  Red Barchetta and Limelight were just as big in the northeast as Tom Sawyer.   Plus, Neil Peart; that drum part in TS is as iconic as any drum part short of "In The Air Tonight".   Rush was also the world's biggest niche band as well; they hit a new level of popularity around... I'll say (though we can argue this) right after the turn of the millenium, but back in the 80's, they were the world's largest club band playing arenas.  The joke was the audience was 99% male, and the girls that were there were there under duress.   They CERTAINLY were not at the level of Van Halen, AC/DC or even Kiss.   Only two Rush albums are more than Platinum - 2112 at 3x and Moving Pictures at 4x - whereas you have AC/DC, where EVERY album from the first through For Those About To Rock are MULTI-platinum (this is amazing to me:  EVERY album of theirs - even the latter day ones - are at LEAST platinum, except for Rock Or Bust. That is insane.)  Van Halen:  every album through Balance is MULTI platinum, with two Diamond records (10 million or more sales).

Very true. There are certain kinds of bands in rock that appeal to women just (or almost) as much as men - Aerosmith, VH, Kiss, Def Leppard, Journey, AC/DC, Guns N' Roses, etc. - and Rush was never one of them, and it is hard for any rock band to break through and become big while appealing to just one sex (by and large), but Rush managed to do it, even if their success was often just a tad under or bubbling along the mainstream radar (largely thanks to the press never giving them their due till the 21st century).

[pg1067]

Two words

HOT. SPACE.

The hit single didn’t matter. They had been a “NO SYNTH” band for 10 years, and within the span of 2 albums, had gone disco. And the timing was horrible...because it came out 2 years after America had declared war on disco. The backlash was severe and completely unavoidable.

Heck, Americans couldn’t even forgive Iron Maiden for using synths 4 years later! They certainly weren’t going to give Queen a pass.

Anyone who wasn’t there has no idea. There was a HUGE hatred for synthesizers in the early 80s by nearly every longhair in the country.

Then how do you explain the massive popularity of Tom Sawyer?

I think pg1067 already gave a legitimate explanation:

As others have noted, while synths were integral to new wave bands, they were a huge pariah among the hard rock/metal fans.  Interestingly, Rush seemed to get a pass on this issue -- probably because they had already established keyboards as a significant part of their sound in the late 70s.

Now that I think about it, not only had they used keyboards in the 70s, but they were not one of these bands like Maiden or Queen that swore up and down to never use keyboards. You make that claim and then do a complete about face, and it's bound to anger the fans.

Stadler made another follow up point:  it's not just the use of synths, but the sound of the synths.  Compare the synth patches used by Rush on Moving Pictures (and even Signals) to what was used on subsequent albums.  The Queen songs under discussion also heavily used sequencers, which Rush didn't really do until GUP (and briefly in the intro for "Vital Signs").  But yeah, Rush got a pass (as did Genesis for a little while).

[Lowdz]

It was 1989.  Tim was too busy listening to Skid Row and Dr. Feelgood that year.

As any sensible person would be 🤘

[ytserush]

If you don't tour fans lose interest.   So after a poor album Hot Space, they stopped touring North America.

The confluence lead to the lack of interest.

There's the answer.

[Crow]

uuuhh I thought the queen lost the states in the 1770's, not the 80's?

[ytserush]

Flash Gordon was a pretty terrible movie

I like the movie AND the soundtrack.

 Love Under Pressure and The Works album.
To this day, Hot Space, A Kind Of Magic, and The Miracle are not on the shelf (Still under consideration though.)

Innuendo brought me back in a big way. I think it's one of their best, and yeah, the context has something to do with that. But despite that, It's still a great album.

[ytserush]

Two words

HOT. SPACE.

The hit single didn’t matter. They had been a “NO SYNTH” band for 10 years, and within the span of 2 albums, had gone disco. And the timing was horrible...because it came out 2 years after America had declared war on disco. The backlash was severe and completely unavoidable.

Heck, Americans couldn’t even forgive Iron Maiden for using synths 4 years later! They certainly weren’t going to give Queen a pass.

Anyone who wasn’t there has no idea. There was a HUGE hatred for synthesizers in the early 80s by nearly every longhair in the country.

Then how do you explain the massive popularity of Tom Sawyer?

There were A LOT of Rush fans who gave up on them after the Signals Tour. I'd bet some of them are here.