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Influential = good/great?

Yes
3 (15%)
No
15 (75%)
Unsure
2 (10%)

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Offline WildRanger

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Re: Influential = good/great?
« Reply #35 on: October 12, 2018, 01:59:33 PM »

Whenever you say something is bad or something sucks, you are basically saying you don't like it or that you hate it. Not that the thing is objectively, universally, essentially bad. Because... there is no such thing. If that was the case, then nobody would like the thing/person. And even if nobody liked it, it doesn't mean it is bad. It only means nobody likes it.

For example, saying "Metallica's St. Anger sucks" is an extremely popular opinion and the big majority of big Metallica fans claim so. But that's a good enough reason that we can conclude that album is objectively BAD. In some cases extremely popular opinions about certain music could lead subjective views to become objective.


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Re: Influential = good/great?
« Reply #36 on: October 12, 2018, 02:02:12 PM »
God dammit dude, do you just come here to open a can of worms and throw them all over Zook and Stad's faces? Their faces are weird enough as is!

I cannot conceive how your last comment is meant to do anything than make people disagree.
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Re: Influential = good/great?
« Reply #37 on: October 12, 2018, 02:53:39 PM »

Whenever you say something is bad or something sucks, you are basically saying you don't like it or that you hate it. Not that the thing is objectively, universally, essentially bad. Because... there is no such thing. If that was the case, then nobody would like the thing/person. And even if nobody liked it, it doesn't mean it is bad. It only means nobody likes it.

For example, saying "Metallica's St. Anger sucks" is an extremely popular opinion and the big majority of big Metallica fans claim so. But that's a good enough reason that we can conclude that album is objectively BAD. In some cases extremely popular opinions about certain music could lead subjective views to become objective.

lol.

No.
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Offline King Postwhore

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Re: Influential = good/great?
« Reply #38 on: October 12, 2018, 03:31:53 PM »
That album still sucks though. :lol
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Offline Crow

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Re: Influential = good/great?
« Reply #39 on: October 12, 2018, 03:33:11 PM »
Next WildRanger thread: "Is music good or bad?"

Online Adami

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Re: Influential = good/great?
« Reply #40 on: October 12, 2018, 03:34:49 PM »
Next WildRanger thread: "Is music good or bad?"

More realistically? "Is popular music good because it's popular?"
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Offline pg1067

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Re: Influential = good/great?
« Reply #41 on: October 12, 2018, 03:44:31 PM »
For example, saying "Metallica's St. Anger sucks" is an extremely popular opinion and the big majority of big Metallica fans claim so. But that's a good enough reason that we can conclude that album is objectively BAD. In some cases extremely popular opinions about certain music could lead subjective views to become objective.

Huh???

There is no such thing as "objectively bad."  If 99/100 people in a room hate St. Anger, does that mean the 1 person who likes it is objectively wrong?  Come on....


"Is music good or bad?"

Yes.
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Offline jammindude

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Re: Influential = good/great?
« Reply #42 on: October 12, 2018, 03:46:10 PM »
I think it's important to study an artist who has been objectively influential on the entire music in order to better understand what it was about that artist who struck a chord with so many people.

For example.   Bob Dylan is *truly* NOT MY THING.....AT ALL.    And yet, I feel compelled from time to time to dig into his history, and his poetry, and what was going on at the time.  Because at the end of the day, he is SO MUCH a product of his time.   And he resonated with an entire generation.   Whether I like him or not, Bob Dylan's stamp on music is extremely important.  And I don't feel that my modern day understanding of the musical landscape would be complete without at least objectively studying Dylan, even if I don't particularly care for anything beyond a small handful of songs.
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Offline jammindude

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Re: Influential = good/great?
« Reply #43 on: October 12, 2018, 03:52:36 PM »
TLDR version - I think Dylan is a perfect example of someone "I don't like" that I still consider to be "among the GREATS" in the history of music. 

So *in that sense and context*, I do think "great" can be an objective term.
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Offline Crow

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Re: Influential = good/great?
« Reply #44 on: October 12, 2018, 03:53:41 PM »
Next WildRanger thread: "Is music good or bad?"

More realistically? "Is popular music good because it's popular?"
Is music real?
Is all "music" actually music?

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Re: Influential = good/great?
« Reply #45 on: October 12, 2018, 03:57:25 PM »
Next WildRanger thread: "Is music good or bad?"

More realistically? "Is popular music good because it's popular?"
Is music real?
Is all "music" actually music?

Did you know that reality is immaterial?
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Offline Crow

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Re: Influential = good/great?
« Reply #46 on: October 12, 2018, 04:00:36 PM »
Are we all living in a simulation?

Offline jammindude

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Re: Influential = good/great?
« Reply #47 on: October 12, 2018, 04:01:26 PM »
Next WildRanger thread: "Is music good or bad?"

More realistically? "Is popular music good because it's popular?"
Is music real?
Is all "music" actually music?

Did you know that reality is immaterial?

This is not reality....
"Better the pride that resides in a citizen of the world.
Than the pride that divides when a colorful rag is unfurled." - Neil Peart

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Offline Zook

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Re: Influential = good/great?
« Reply #48 on: October 12, 2018, 04:26:23 PM »
God dammit dude, do you just come here to open a can of worms and throw them all over Zook and Stad's faces? Their faces are weird enough as is!

I cannot conceive how your last comment is meant to do anything than make people disagree.

I love you too, buddy.

Offline Crow

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Re: Influential = good/great?
« Reply #49 on: October 12, 2018, 04:29:23 PM »
Is St. Anger obectively good or bad?

Online Adami

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Re: Influential = good/great?
« Reply #50 on: October 12, 2018, 05:00:00 PM »
God dammit dude, do you just come here to open a can of worms and throw them all over Zook and Stad's faces? Their faces are weird enough as is!

I cannot conceive how your last comment is meant to do anything than make people disagree.

I love you too, buddy.

Love you too, and your weird face.
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Offline Zook

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Re: Influential = good/great?
« Reply #51 on: October 12, 2018, 05:04:07 PM »
God dammit dude, do you just come here to open a can of worms and throw them all over Zook and Stad's faces? Their faces are weird enough as is!

I cannot conceive how your last comment is meant to do anything than make people disagree.

I love you too, buddy.

Love you too, and your weird face.

:zook3:

Offline jammindude

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Re: Influential = good/great?
« Reply #52 on: October 12, 2018, 05:04:38 PM »
Whoa....I wrote my Dylan rant before I even bothered to go back and read Stadler's....
"Better the pride that resides in a citizen of the world.
Than the pride that divides when a colorful rag is unfurled." - Neil Peart

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Re: Influential = good/great?
« Reply #53 on: October 12, 2018, 07:03:41 PM »
I don't think respect is the right word to use here. If Dream Theater wouldn't exist without The Beatles, fine. Cool, thanks Paul and crew for making music that inspired a future band that would end up being my favorite. Oh, you know which band inspired Jon Schaffer of Iced Earth to play guitar for a living? KISS. Do I like them? NOPE. Not even a little bit. Well, that's not true. Iced Earth has a good cover of Creatures of the Night. I'm not going to fault myself or place the blame on myself for not liking something. Again, I don't think respect is the right word to use. I don't ever say I respect DT or Iced Earth even though I love their music and think the musicians are pretty cool and don't afraid of anything.

But no one said anything about LIKING.  I could care less about LIKING something, it's just acknowledging it.  I happen to love Kiss, but there are plenty of bands that I really like that are influenced by bands I do not listen to and don't care for (I'm not a huge thrash fan, for example, so while DT is one of my favorite bands as well, as they progressed and incorporated more of the thrash metal influences. 

I have a step daughter I've been helping raise as my own for 8 years, just to be perfectly clear. Once again, I am not stating my opinion as universal fact. The other guy above said the same thing.

I wasn't trying to dig or make it personal, but to explain myself better.  I'm a massive music fan. I have a wall of CDs, I play, etc.   So when my daughter started to get involved in music, I was as thrilled as anyone could be.  She liked (and likes) to sing and wants to play an instrument (she's playing ukulele at school).   But imagine my chagrin when she gravitated to Justin Bieber, Taylor Swift, and One Direction.  And at first I tried to make sure she understood where that was coming from; when Swift played a Train song in concert then a Fleetwood Mac song, I made sure she heard the originals.   Same with One D.  When they did that song that sounds exactly like David Bowie's Changes, I made sure she heard that. too.   But she would come home from a hard day or done with her studying, she gets the same relief and emotional lift from that music that I do from DT or Genesis or whoever.   And it dawned on me, who am I to say that "sucks"?   I can - and do - tell her which songs don't work for me, and why, and there are some that DO work ("Once In A Lifetime" by One D and "Wildest Dreams" are two of my favorite songs ever). 

All I know, is when I hear the "In The Cage Medley" from 3SL, the hairs on my arms stand up; if that Swift song does the same thing to her, how can that "suck"?   It's music, it causes the same reaction over time and space, so how does "Genesis" rule and Swift drool?   It makes no logical sense.   So I look at the one variable that is different, and it's ME. 

This is very different than "like".  I don't like those bands per se.   I love the Dead (well, parts of it; the Godcheaux years, basically) and their biggest influence is probably Dylan.  I still don't like Dylan, but I love how the Dead took his whatever and filtered it through their whatever and came up with something new. 

Again, it's not personal, I'm not telling you you're wrong, I'm just saying I disagree strongly and giving tangible reasons why.

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Re: Influential = good/great?
« Reply #54 on: October 12, 2018, 07:06:35 PM »
Genesis blows.

And to quote a friend:

Again, it's not personal, I'm not telling you you're wrong, I'm just saying I disagree strongly and giving tangible reasons why.
would have thought the same thing but seeing the OP was TAC i immediately thought Maiden or DT related
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Re: Influential = good/great?
« Reply #55 on: October 12, 2018, 07:13:48 PM »
For example, saying "Metallica's St. Anger sucks" is an extremely popular opinion and the big majority of big Metallica fans claim so. But that's a good enough reason that we can conclude that album is objectively BAD. In some cases extremely popular opinions about certain music could lead subjective views to become objective.

Huh???

There is no such thing as "objectively bad."  If 99/100 people in a room hate St. Anger, does that mean the 1 person who likes it is objectively wrong?  Come on....


Even if 100 say it, doesn't make it so, UNLESS all 100 agree on a standard by which it can be measured.  This is why the "I think it sucks" is a bad standard, because no one else CAN agree on what that standard is, because it's unique to you.

There is a whole field of literature called "Criticism".   And those critics don't just say "Oh, it sucks!" or "Oh, it rocks my balls!".   They carefully (to one degree or another) lay out the standards on which the work will be compared, and they do so.  it IS objective, in the sense that it is clear what the rating is and what it is based on.  You STILL don't have to agree with it, but at least there's a common ground to be compared and debated.  And in some cases, those objectives are purely factual (number of records sold, number of gold records, number of #1 singles, etc.)

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Re: Influential = good/great?
« Reply #56 on: October 12, 2018, 07:22:03 PM »
I think it's important to study an artist who has been objectively influential on the entire music in order to better understand what it was about that artist who struck a chord with so many people.

For example.   Bob Dylan is *truly* NOT MY THING.....AT ALL.    And yet, I feel compelled from time to time to dig into his history, and his poetry, and what was going on at the time.  Because at the end of the day, he is SO MUCH a product of his time.   And he resonated with an entire generation.   Whether I like him or not, Bob Dylan's stamp on music is extremely important.  And I don't feel that my modern day understanding of the musical landscape would be complete without at least objectively studying Dylan, even if I don't particularly care for anything beyond a small handful of songs.

It should surprise no one that I love this post. 

I was even driving from my house in CT to my work in Rochester, NY, and I had to get gas, so I diverted through Woodstock.  I saw where he lived.  Where The Band (another band I really cannot listen to; I find no entertainment in that home-y Levon Helm singing style) lived.  The Bearsville Studio that so many bands went to to recreate that vibe.   And you see what those guys did in the mid-to-late 60's, and how Jimi Hendrix was moved by it, how the Beatles were moved by it, and why it came about the way it did, it's an unbelievable dose of perspective. 

I have a 28,000 songs on my iPod more or less, and I have three Dylan songs:  Knocking' On Heaven's Door (because I wanted to learn it), a Beatles cover (I think it's "Things We Said Today") and a Woody Guthrie cover that I couldn't name if my life depended on it.  in that context I think it makes me ignorant to say "I think Bob Dylan sucks." 

Offline Skeever

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Re: Influential = good/great?
« Reply #57 on: October 12, 2018, 08:14:41 PM »
The thing about Dylan is that it's not about the music, it's about the lyrics. The man could (and still can) turn a phrase and paint landscapes with words. I still remember my first exposure, just waking up in the sleeper cab of my Dad's big rig while he was driving, and listening to a Dylan cassette. "Ballad of a Thin Man" was playing and I had no idea what I was listening to. It was deeply disturbing and evocative in a way music had never been for me prior. The he put on the Bringin It All Back Home cassette and every single song was a new lyrical world to explore and ponder. It's no surprise to me that Dylan's Nobel Peace prize was for literature, not music.

Offline WildRanger

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Re: Influential = good/great?
« Reply #58 on: October 13, 2018, 04:05:06 AM »
Is St. Anger obectively good or bad?

Correct answer is bad.

Offline ChuckSteak

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Re: Influential = good/great?
« Reply #59 on: October 13, 2018, 05:36:16 AM »

Whenever you say something is bad or something sucks, you are basically saying you don't like it or that you hate it. Not that the thing is objectively, universally, essentially bad. Because... there is no such thing. If that was the case, then nobody would like the thing/person. And even if nobody liked it, it doesn't mean it is bad. It only means nobody likes it.

For example, saying "Metallica's St. Anger sucks" is an extremely popular opinion and the big majority of big Metallica fans claim so. But that's a good enough reason that we can conclude that album is objectively BAD. In some cases extremely popular opinions about certain music could lead subjective views to become objective.
So you are basically saying that because the majority agrees on something then it is automatically right and objective? God, Hitler and dictators would have liked you.

In your head you can think your opinion is objective. You can tell yourself all you want. All your friends can agree with you. It doesn't matter. It is still subjective. Even though most people hate St. Anger, there are still people who like it. And to repeat myself:

Quote
And even if nobody liked it, it doesn't mean it is bad. It only means nobody likes it.

Offline ChuckSteak

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Re: Influential = good/great?
« Reply #60 on: October 13, 2018, 05:37:10 AM »
Next WildRanger thread: "Is music good or bad?"

More realistically? "Is popular music good because it's popular?"
Is music real?
Is all "music" actually music?

Did you know that reality is immaterial?

This is not reality....
:rollin :rollin :rollin :rollin

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Re: Influential = good/great?
« Reply #61 on: October 13, 2018, 05:52:21 AM »
You know, with each new thread this guy creates, I get the feeling he's only out to troll the shit out of these forums by spewing his disinformation. He doesn't actively engage in this discussion his non-issue topics somehow manage to generate and the only reply that gets out of him is 'St. Anger is objectively bad'.

Come on.
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Offline Zook

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Re: Influential = good/great?
« Reply #62 on: October 13, 2018, 07:01:38 AM »
I don't think respect is the right word to use here. If Dream Theater wouldn't exist without The Beatles, fine. Cool, thanks Paul and crew for making music that inspired a future band that would end up being my favorite. Oh, you know which band inspired Jon Schaffer of Iced Earth to play guitar for a living? KISS. Do I like them? NOPE. Not even a little bit. Well, that's not true. Iced Earth has a good cover of Creatures of the Night. I'm not going to fault myself or place the blame on myself for not liking something. Again, I don't think respect is the right word to use. I don't ever say I respect DT or Iced Earth even though I love their music and think the musicians are pretty cool and don't afraid of anything.

But no one said anything about LIKING.  I could care less about LIKING something, it's just acknowledging it.  I happen to love Kiss, but there are plenty of bands that I really like that are influenced by bands I do not listen to and don't care for (I'm not a huge thrash fan, for example, so while DT is one of my favorite bands as well, as they progressed and incorporated more of the thrash metal influences. 

I have a step daughter I've been helping raise as my own for 8 years, just to be perfectly clear. Once again, I am not stating my opinion as universal fact. The other guy above said the same thing.

I wasn't trying to dig or make it personal, but to explain myself better.  I'm a massive music fan. I have a wall of CDs, I play, etc.   So when my daughter started to get involved in music, I was as thrilled as anyone could be.  She liked (and likes) to sing and wants to play an instrument (she's playing ukulele at school).   But imagine my chagrin when she gravitated to Justin Bieber, Taylor Swift, and One Direction.  And at first I tried to make sure she understood where that was coming from; when Swift played a Train song in concert then a Fleetwood Mac song, I made sure she heard the originals.   Same with One D.  When they did that song that sounds exactly like David Bowie's Changes, I made sure she heard that. too.   But she would come home from a hard day or done with her studying, she gets the same relief and emotional lift from that music that I do from DT or Genesis or whoever.   And it dawned on me, who am I to say that "sucks"?   I can - and do - tell her which songs don't work for me, and why, and there are some that DO work ("Once In A Lifetime" by One D and "Wildest Dreams" are two of my favorite songs ever). 

All I know, is when I hear the "In The Cage Medley" from 3SL, the hairs on my arms stand up; if that Swift song does the same thing to her, how can that "suck"?   It's music, it causes the same reaction over time and space, so how does "Genesis" rule and Swift drool?   It makes no logical sense.   So I look at the one variable that is different, and it's ME. 

This is very different than "like".  I don't like those bands per se.   I love the Dead (well, parts of it; the Godcheaux years, basically) and their biggest influence is probably Dylan.  I still don't like Dylan, but I love how the Dead took his whatever and filtered it through their whatever and came up with something new. 

Again, it's not personal, I'm not telling you you're wrong, I'm just saying I disagree strongly and giving tangible reasons why.

My daughter loves Taylor Swift and every other female pop singer ever, and anything her mom listens to. I make it perfectly clear what I like and don't like. Yes, I need to work on that, but they listen to the same shit OVER AND OVER AND OVER AGAIN. It drives me mad. I am surprised when something enjoyable comes on, but more often than not, it's "change this shit. I'm fucking sick of this song." Certain songs are banned from my car. Lately my daughter has been describing what I listen to as just screaming into a microphone, and she's referring to any singing with a harsher tone, not ever Death Metal which I don't actively listen to anyway. She has requested Dream Theater, but it seems to be always when I want to listen to something else. Both my daughter and my fiancée like Dream Theater, which is cool. But yeah, I'm very vocal when it comes to stuff I don't like.

As I said before, saying something sucks is an exaggeration of an opinion. It's basically slang for "I don't like this." Can it be mean? Yes. I don't like it when someone says something sucks or is boring that I like, so I'm a bit of a hypocrite in that regard, but such is life. When my fiancée and daughter are listening to shit I really don't like, I just leave the room now. I can't take it. I'd like to be more of an influence on my daughter when it comes to music, and I think by just showing her how much I love the music I listen to would help, I'm not one to sing in front of people. They love to sing, but I know my limitations, and I know I can't. I drown myself out in the car when I'm by myself. Maybe one day I'll build up the courage.

Music can "suck" because it's all personal opinion. One person's trash is another's treasure. Once again, saying something sucks is not a truth claim, or stating an objective fact. It's all opinion. Genesis can both rule and drool as well as Taylor Swift. Example: Swift's new album is a dumpster fire, but 1989 is a 9 out of 10. Reputation fucking blows... But my fiancée and daughter love it. Your point of view is seeing it as objective. Objectively it wouldn't make logical sense, but there's nothing objective about an opinion. We all like 1989. The only song which is complete trash is Bad Blood, but they like it. What if my daughter and I liked it, but my fiancée didn't. Or only my daughter hated it? Or they both hated it, but I liked it. Maybe in another universe because I fucking hate that song. Sorry if this was a mess or if I missed something. Basically, you know, it's all like, our opinions, man. People can be mean, I can be mean or blunt. It's something to work on, but god damn, some of the shit they listen to is so bad...

Offline WildRanger

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Re: Influential = good/great?
« Reply #63 on: October 13, 2018, 08:49:14 AM »
I'm really surprised that the most people on this board are into Rush very much and I wonder whether it has something to do with their huge influence on Dream Theater.

Offline ChuckSteak

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Re: Influential = good/great?
« Reply #64 on: October 13, 2018, 09:08:00 AM »
I'm really surprised that the most people on this board are into Rush very much and I wonder whether it has something to do with their huge influence on Dream Theater.
DT is a huge influence on Haken and not everyone here likes them.  ::)

Offline ChuckSteak

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Re: Influential = good/great?
« Reply #65 on: October 13, 2018, 09:08:55 AM »
You know, with each new thread this guy creates, I get the feeling he's only out to troll the shit out of these forums by spewing his disinformation. He doesn't actively engage in this discussion his non-issue topics somehow manage to generate and the only reply that gets out of him is 'St. Anger is objectively bad'.

Come on.
This..

Offline KevShmev

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Re: Influential = good/great?
« Reply #66 on: October 13, 2018, 09:09:01 AM »
I'm really surprised that the most people on this board are into Rush very much and I wonder whether it has something to do with their huge influence on Dream Theater.

 :rollin :rollin :rollin

Offline ChuckSteak

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Re: Influential = good/great?
« Reply #67 on: October 13, 2018, 09:15:11 AM »
I'm really surprised that the most people on this board are into Rush very much and I wonder whether it has something to do with their huge influence on Dream Theater.

 :rollin :rollin :rollin
Therefore we can all agree that Rush is objectively good.  ;D

Offline KevShmev

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Re: Influential = good/great?
« Reply #68 on: October 13, 2018, 09:24:16 AM »
I'm really surprised that the most people on this board are into Rush very much and I wonder whether it has something to do with their huge influence on Dream Theater.

 :rollin :rollin :rollin
Therefore we can all agree that Rush is objectively good.  ;D

YES, BUT ARE THEY PROG???

WE HAVE TO KNOW!!!!!!!!

Offline Skeever

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Re: Influential = good/great?
« Reply #69 on: October 13, 2018, 10:13:06 AM »
I'm really surprised that the most people on this board are into Rush very much and I wonder whether it has something to do with their huge influence on Dream Theater.
DT is a huge influence on Haken and not everyone here likes them.  ::)

Yeah, but Haken are terrible