Author Topic: Ticketmaster finally going down?  (Read 15619 times)

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Online Stadler

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Re: Ticketmaster finally going down?
« Reply #140 on: March 16, 2023, 10:31:29 AM »
Right, the entire industry is corrupt, so the screw job is happening whether it comes from TM or someone else.  That is the unfortunate reality.

Also, Barto, you ought to be feeling smart now.  As you predicted, a lot of the tickets still available on StubHub for this weekend's first two Taylor Swift concerts have come way down.

He can correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think Bart is saying the whole system is corrupt; do you expect TM to work for free?  I think that's the fallacy in all this.  TM is entitled to make back their costs, and a reasonable profit and overhead.  Like any other business providing a service.

Pearl Jam bitched and moaned, and it came out now that we have to see the breakdown.  That's actually worse, because it triggers the emotional response; we'd be paying this either way but it FEELS bad to be paying TM for this stuff.  It's the same in the used car business; they now have these detailed breakdowns of costs, and it looks egregious - the "Dealer Conveyance Fee!" - but EVERY one of those line items is a COST to their business.  But it looks like they're piling on all these charges. 

Offline KevShmev

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Re: Ticketmaster finally going down?
« Reply #141 on: March 16, 2023, 10:51:09 AM »
Right, the entire industry is corrupt, so the screw job is happening whether it comes from TM or someone else.  That is the unfortunate reality.

Also, Barto, you ought to be feeling smart now.  As you predicted, a lot of the tickets still available on StubHub for this weekend's first two Taylor Swift concerts have come way down.

He can correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think Bart is saying the whole system is corrupt; do you expect TM to work for free?  I think that's the fallacy in all this.  TM is entitled to make back their costs, and a reasonable profit and overhead.  Like any other business providing a service.

Pearl Jam bitched and moaned, and it came out now that we have to see the breakdown.  That's actually worse, because it triggers the emotional response; we'd be paying this either way but it FEELS bad to be paying TM for this stuff.  It's the same in the used car business; they now have these detailed breakdowns of costs, and it looks egregious - the "Dealer Conveyance Fee!" - but EVERY one of those line items is a COST to their business.  But it looks like they're piling on all these charges.

Fair points, but I think it's the being in bed with the scalpers and tickets costing several times their face value on 3rd party sites that grinds the gears of many.

Take when COVID hit and everyone freaked out and bought tons of toilet paper.  Imagine if you went to the store, but someone had bought it all and was then selling it outside at four times the store's price and you were faced with the "shit your pants or ante up" scenario.  That would irk just about anyone.  Now, of course, there is a big difference between concert tickets (a want) and TP (a need), but I think it illustrates the point.

Offline El Barto

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Re: Ticketmaster finally going down?
« Reply #142 on: March 16, 2023, 11:05:32 AM »
I always feel smart!

Are they coming down enough to be reasonable for average fans? Part of the problem is that there was no way of knowing what the original face was. I can't imagine list for uppers was over $100, they seldom are, so I wouldn't be surprised to see get-ins going for about that. Another issue is that the whole disastrous start of the thing probably scared most people off. I doubt people have really been looking for scalper tickets figuring they'd be ridiculously overpriced. Probably a lot of resignation to defeat.
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Re: Ticketmaster finally going down?
« Reply #143 on: March 16, 2023, 11:08:46 AM »
What adds to the pain in our wallets is that the artist big money maker is concerts.  No one makes money off of new music anymore. (Sad to say) This adds to the absorbent prices that we freak about.  That's why I tend to see bands in small venues. More affordable. 
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Offline cramx3

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Re: Ticketmaster finally going down?
« Reply #144 on: March 16, 2023, 12:03:04 PM »
As much as I think the Cure example is shit.  I'm sure they sold all those tickets. There won't be any change as long as people are willing to pay the price including the fees.

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Re: Ticketmaster finally going down?
« Reply #145 on: March 16, 2023, 12:31:47 PM »
Right, the entire industry is corrupt, so the screw job is happening whether it comes from TM or someone else.  That is the unfortunate reality.

Also, Barto, you ought to be feeling smart now.  As you predicted, a lot of the tickets still available on StubHub for this weekend's first two Taylor Swift concerts have come way down.

He can correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think Bart is saying the whole system is corrupt; do you expect TM to work for free?  I think that's the fallacy in all this.  TM is entitled to make back their costs, and a reasonable profit and overhead.  Like any other business providing a service.

Pearl Jam bitched and moaned, and it came out now that we have to see the breakdown.  That's actually worse, because it triggers the emotional response; we'd be paying this either way but it FEELS bad to be paying TM for this stuff.  It's the same in the used car business; they now have these detailed breakdowns of costs, and it looks egregious - the "Dealer Conveyance Fee!" - but EVERY one of those line items is a COST to their business.  But it looks like they're piling on all these charges.

Fair points, but I think it's the being in bed with the scalpers and tickets costing several times their face value on 3rd party sites that grinds the gears of many.

Take when COVID hit and everyone freaked out and bought tons of toilet paper.  Imagine if you went to the store, but someone had bought it all and was then selling it outside at four times the store's price and you were faced with the "shit your pants or ante up" scenario.  That would irk just about anyone.  Now, of course, there is a big difference between concert tickets (a want) and TP (a need), but I think it illustrates the point.

That's a little different; the in bed with scalpers grinds my gears too, though I don't have a problem with scalpers in general IF the public has a fair shake to get the initial run.  I think that's the real problem.   I shouldn't go on within 10 minutes of a show being on sale and ONLY getting scalped tickets as the alternative.  That's been the case with EVERY show at the Mohegan Sun for the last five years or so.

Offline ProfessorPeart

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Re: Ticketmaster finally going down?
« Reply #146 on: March 16, 2023, 01:11:23 PM »
Well, I know the Arcada uses eTix as their ticketing service and they charge $9 and that's it, doesn't matter on ticket price. TM is throwing $20+ on top. Another issue is that Live Nation/TM own a ton of venues in the states now. I have also seen other small venues that sell their own tickets, and even some smaller sellers like eTix, and the fees never come close to what TM charges.
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Offline Lonk

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Re: Ticketmaster finally going down?
« Reply #147 on: March 16, 2023, 01:26:20 PM »
And all of these fees talk doesn't even include the who "Official Platinum" game they've been doing. Marking up prices just for the heck of it.
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Offline El Barto

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Re: Ticketmaster finally going down?
« Reply #148 on: March 16, 2023, 01:56:17 PM »
And all of these fees talk doesn't even include the who "Official Platinum" game they've been doing. Marking up prices just for the heck of it.
Take that up with the artists. Not TM.
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Offline KevShmev

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Re: Ticketmaster finally going down?
« Reply #149 on: March 16, 2023, 08:01:09 PM »
And all of these fees talk doesn't even include the who "Official Platinum" game they've been doing. Marking up prices just for the heck of it.
Take that up with the artists. Not TM.

Isn't "official platinum" basically the same as "dynamic pricing?" Because not all artists agree to letting TM do dynamic pricing.  The ones that do, however, are the ones I don't ever want to hear complain about TM.

Offline El Barto

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Re: Ticketmaster finally going down?
« Reply #150 on: March 17, 2023, 08:32:38 AM »
And all of these fees talk doesn't even include the who "Official Platinum" game they've been doing. Marking up prices just for the heck of it.
Take that up with the artists. Not TM.

Isn't "official platinum" basically the same as "dynamic pricing?" Because not all artists agree to letting TM do dynamic pricing.  The ones that do, however, are the ones I don't ever want to hear complain about TM.
I believe artists can opt out of both. I'm pretty sure that creepy dude form the Cure said as much. And they're similar but not the same. As I understand it (and I'm not an expert, even if I play one on DTF), platinum tickets are entire blocks of great seats set aside for those willing to pay 5x as much. Dynamic pricing applies to the entire venue, and tries to sell tickets for what the market will support.

For my part, I find the latter less disagreeable. The former is just a cash grab. While it's true that they also sell good seats that aren't official platinum, good luck getting them. The dynamic pricing thing is simply an attempt to get the money the scalpers are already getting. Tickets to see Bruce are going to be expensive. That's just the way it is when supply hugely outweighs demand. The difference is whether or not the added money goes to scalpers or to Bruce. I don't much care about the guy, but he deserves the money.
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Offline El Barto

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Re: Ticketmaster finally going down?
« Reply #151 on: March 17, 2023, 08:46:32 AM »
In response to being called out by congress LN/TM has promoted what it's calling the Fair Ticketing Act. Gotta say, it's not bad. While I'm not sure what they're lobbying for in the fine print, the ideas are typically what I'd like to see. We can all say that banning ticket scalping is the only thing that'll work, but there is something to be said for flexibiiby. A few months ago I had to sell a ticket to see PT in SF because I caught Covid. While I did sell it a a loss (about $25) it was far better than eating the entire cost of the ticket.

Because they're the most evil people in the known universe we can say that they're only doing it to cover their own hides, but that's not a huge concern for me. We all do. The ideas themselves will first and foremost help the artist, and if they really mean letting an artist dictate maximum resale value, it'll be a boon for the fans.

It's also worth noting that the people who hate this are Stubhub. They've actually got a valid point in that their primary competitor is TM's own resell marketplace, but TM has no reason not to abide by the same rules, as they get their money the same way SH does, which is by more fees to the resell. If I like it and scalpers hate it, it's probably a good thing.

https://www.livenationentertainment.com/2023/02/live-nation-entertainment-announces-support-for-a-fair-ticketing-act/

Quote
ARTISTS SHOULD DECIDE RESALE RULES.
Protect artists’ ability to use face-value exchanges and limited transfer to keep pricing lower for fans, and prevent scalpers from exploiting fans.

MAKE IT ILLEGAL TO SELL SPECULATIVE TICKETS.
Scalpers use deceptive tactics to trick fans into spending more or buying tickets the seller doesn’t even have – this confuses fans and should be banned.

EXPAND THE BOTS ACT.
Policymakers should expand the scope of the BOTS Act and increase enforcement to deter those who break the law, cheating artists and fans in the process.

CRACK DOWN ON RESALE SITES THAT ARE SAFE HAVENS FOR SCALPERS.
Resale sites that turn a blind eye to illegally acquired tickets, allow ticket speculation, and ignore artists’ rules need real consequences from policymakers to curb their bad behavior.

MANDATE ALL-IN PRICING NATIONALLY.
Avoid surprises at check out and give fans the ability to easily compare prices as they shop by mandating all-in pricing that shows the full out of pocket cost of the ticket and fees right upfront.

That first one really is the big one. Aside from letting artists determine resell value, limiting the number of tickets sold will also be a massive improvement. While I've had to resell tickets I couldn't use, I've never had to sell 16 tickets to 8 different people before.
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Offline cramx3

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Re: Ticketmaster finally going down?
« Reply #152 on: March 17, 2023, 09:06:44 AM »
Interesting.

I listed a ticket on stubhub for the first time in a few months yesterday and noticed I had to provide the face value as well when putting in my asking price.  That seemed new to me, although it didn't stop me from listing it above face value (in my case, by $20).

Speculative tickets was something I speculated was happening last year.  The secondary market just didn't make sense for some concerts. I talked about that in the concerts thread.

I've noticed livenation showing all in prices a lot more lately, but not for every concert which confuses me. I definitely like seeing the all in price in right away.  Always annoying to have to go through the check out process to actually see the final cost.

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Re: Ticketmaster finally going down?
« Reply #153 on: March 17, 2023, 09:33:25 AM »
So here's an interesting note.  Robert Smith of The Cure has stated that Ticketmaster will send a refund of some of the fees to people that already bought tickets to a Cure show and tickets listed that's going on sale will have lower fees.  Let's see if it holds true.

https://loudwire.com/robert-smith-ticketmaster-partial-refund-the-cure-tickets/

Offline DTA

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Re: Ticketmaster finally going down?
« Reply #154 on: March 17, 2023, 09:41:44 AM »
Going to buy tickets for this in about 20 minutes so that's good to hear. Robert Smith continues to be the coolest guy in the music industry.

Offline jammindude

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Re: Ticketmaster finally going down?
« Reply #155 on: March 17, 2023, 09:49:41 AM »
I looked at the Ticketmaster website yesterday, and even though they were locked, they showed the seats that were going to become available soon, and most of them were behind the stage. We will see if that continues be the case when tickets go on sale in an hour, but I don’t have very high hopes for this.
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Re: Ticketmaster finally going down?
« Reply #156 on: March 17, 2023, 12:20:04 PM »
In response to being called out by congress LN/TM has promoted what it's calling the Fair Ticketing Act. Gotta say, it's not bad. While I'm not sure what they're lobbying for in the fine print, the ideas are typically what I'd like to see. We can all say that banning ticket scalping is the only thing that'll work, but there is something to be said for flexibiiby. A few months ago I had to sell a ticket to see PT in SF because I caught Covid. While I did sell it a a loss (about $25) it was far better than eating the entire cost of the ticket.

Because they're the most evil people in the known universe we can say that they're only doing it to cover their own hides, but that's not a huge concern for me. We all do. The ideas themselves will first and foremost help the artist, and if they really mean letting an artist dictate maximum resale value, it'll be a boon for the fans.

It's also worth noting that the people who hate this are Stubhub. They've actually got a valid point in that their primary competitor is TM's own resell marketplace, but TM has no reason not to abide by the same rules, as they get their money the same way SH does, which is by more fees to the resell. If I like it and scalpers hate it, it's probably a good thing.

https://www.livenationentertainment.com/2023/02/live-nation-entertainment-announces-support-for-a-fair-ticketing-act/

Quote
ARTISTS SHOULD DECIDE RESALE RULES.
Protect artists’ ability to use face-value exchanges and limited transfer to keep pricing lower for fans, and prevent scalpers from exploiting fans.

MAKE IT ILLEGAL TO SELL SPECULATIVE TICKETS.
Scalpers use deceptive tactics to trick fans into spending more or buying tickets the seller doesn’t even have – this confuses fans and should be banned.

EXPAND THE BOTS ACT.
Policymakers should expand the scope of the BOTS Act and increase enforcement to deter those who break the law, cheating artists and fans in the process.

CRACK DOWN ON RESALE SITES THAT ARE SAFE HAVENS FOR SCALPERS.
Resale sites that turn a blind eye to illegally acquired tickets, allow ticket speculation, and ignore artists’ rules need real consequences from policymakers to curb their bad behavior.

MANDATE ALL-IN PRICING NATIONALLY.
Avoid surprises at check out and give fans the ability to easily compare prices as they shop by mandating all-in pricing that shows the full out of pocket cost of the ticket and fees right upfront.

That first one really is the big one. Aside from letting artists determine resell value, limiting the number of tickets sold will also be a massive improvement. While I've had to resell tickets I couldn't use, I've never had to sell 16 tickets to 8 different people before.

I agree with all you've said; I would note, though, that I don't see anything that SPECIFICALLY prohibits TM from switching tickets from their cold sell to resale page automatically (something I've long suspected they do); if that's the BOTS part, then I apologize for my ignorance.

Offline El Barto

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Re: Ticketmaster finally going down?
« Reply #157 on: March 17, 2023, 12:48:57 PM »
In response to being called out by congress LN/TM has promoted what it's calling the Fair Ticketing Act. Gotta say, it's not bad. While I'm not sure what they're lobbying for in the fine print, the ideas are typically what I'd like to see. We can all say that banning ticket scalping is the only thing that'll work, but there is something to be said for flexibiiby. A few months ago I had to sell a ticket to see PT in SF because I caught Covid. While I did sell it a a loss (about $25) it was far better than eating the entire cost of the ticket.

Because they're the most evil people in the known universe we can say that they're only doing it to cover their own hides, but that's not a huge concern for me. We all do. The ideas themselves will first and foremost help the artist, and if they really mean letting an artist dictate maximum resale value, it'll be a boon for the fans.

It's also worth noting that the people who hate this are Stubhub. They've actually got a valid point in that their primary competitor is TM's own resell marketplace, but TM has no reason not to abide by the same rules, as they get their money the same way SH does, which is by more fees to the resell. If I like it and scalpers hate it, it's probably a good thing.

https://www.livenationentertainment.com/2023/02/live-nation-entertainment-announces-support-for-a-fair-ticketing-act/

Quote
ARTISTS SHOULD DECIDE RESALE RULES.
Protect artists’ ability to use face-value exchanges and limited transfer to keep pricing lower for fans, and prevent scalpers from exploiting fans.

MAKE IT ILLEGAL TO SELL SPECULATIVE TICKETS.
Scalpers use deceptive tactics to trick fans into spending more or buying tickets the seller doesn’t even have – this confuses fans and should be banned.

EXPAND THE BOTS ACT.
Policymakers should expand the scope of the BOTS Act and increase enforcement to deter those who break the law, cheating artists and fans in the process.

CRACK DOWN ON RESALE SITES THAT ARE SAFE HAVENS FOR SCALPERS.
Resale sites that turn a blind eye to illegally acquired tickets, allow ticket speculation, and ignore artists’ rules need real consequences from policymakers to curb their bad behavior.

MANDATE ALL-IN PRICING NATIONALLY.
Avoid surprises at check out and give fans the ability to easily compare prices as they shop by mandating all-in pricing that shows the full out of pocket cost of the ticket and fees right upfront.

That first one really is the big one. Aside from letting artists determine resell value, limiting the number of tickets sold will also be a massive improvement. While I've had to resell tickets I couldn't use, I've never had to sell 16 tickets to 8 different people before.

I agree with all you've said; I would note, though, that I don't see anything that SPECIFICALLY prohibits TM from switching tickets from their cold sell to resale page automatically (something I've long suspected they do); if that's the BOTS part, then I apologize for my ignorance.
I wouldn't expect TM to actually do that. If TM were an actual holder and seller on their resale page I think that would be criminal, and certainly a conflict of interest that no promoter would tolerate. Moreover, TM doesn't actually own any tickets. What wouldn't surprise me is if people associated with TM, or even some employees, buy some tickets before they go on sale to scalp. Growing up a friend's mom actually ran the Rainbow Ticketmaster machine at Sears and would always pull him tickets (good ones) before they actually went on sale. Honestly, if TM had any sense, and I think they do, they'd prohibit that from every happening.

I can tell you why it might look that way, though. A shit-ton of the tickets that show up on the resell page come from insiders. Not from TM, necessarily, but producers, promoters, radio people, label people, and certainly band people. These were all tickets that never went on sale to the general public. Somebody posted an article a while back about somebody in Metallica's camp working with TM to make sure his allotment of tickets went straight to resale. That probably happens with a lot of people. What people don't realize is that of the 80,000 seats for Taylor Swift's show at Jerryworld, probably less than 40k were made available to the public. It wasn't TM hoarding them, but all of the other industry people who got first dibs, and they all cashed them in.
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Re: Ticketmaster finally going down?
« Reply #158 on: March 20, 2023, 06:26:52 AM »
That's probably true; my beef is really with the shows that go on at Mohegan Sun, the casino here in CT.  And I know for a fact that you're right about the tickets that get held back.  It depends on the show, a bit, but it was usually a thing that the tribe families got an allotment of tickets that would invariably filter their way to the market.   This seems to just be speeding that up.

Offline cramx3

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Re: Ticketmaster finally going down?
« Reply #159 on: March 20, 2023, 08:09:42 AM »
If you ever go searching for day of show tickets, there's always a complete row or section that gets released.  That would imply to me that some tickets aren't on the market for some shows until they are unspoken for.

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Re: Ticketmaster finally going down?
« Reply #160 on: March 20, 2023, 08:53:46 AM »
When I saw Bruce on Broadway - and bear in mind this is BROADWAY, not a tour run through normal promoters - you could line up outside, and after the doors opened, they would call people in from the standing room line and issue whatever tickets they had; typically, about five or six people got tickets every show, but no guarantees. I got third row center, and I know for a fact my ticket was one of Bruce's reserved tickets that whoever he left it for didn't use.  So they sold it.  I had been standing out in 32o weather since about 2pm (so about five hours) and was escorted in to the ticket booth and given about 31 seconds to take the ticket or not.  Once I bought it, I was escorted to the entrance (to make sure I didn't run out and boot it in the street, I guess!) and ushered through the ticket taker. 

Offline Dublagent66

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Re: Ticketmaster finally going down?
« Reply #161 on: March 20, 2023, 09:56:07 AM »
Well, we didn't used to call them Ticketbastards for nothing. :lol
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Offline El Barto

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Re: Ticketmaster finally going down?
« Reply #162 on: June 13, 2023, 01:46:18 PM »
Thank the goddess that congress is finally getting involved. Now we can expect some improvements.  :lol

The TICKET Act (yes, it's some stupid acronym) will eventually pass, and quite expectedly it touches on the two most superficial points that don't really effect many people, and ignores the underlying problems. This is what you get when you let Ted Fucking Cruz decide what should be done instead of listening to the people who understand it. Ironically, TM/LN actually wants far more regulation than they'll get out of congress, and they've been lobbying hard for it. This bill will force ticket sellers to show you the "out the door" price, rather than just face value before the fees. Or, the same thing that happens if you tick the "show prices with fees" switch on the website. And frankly, is there anybody in the world that doesn't understand that a $45 ticket will cost you $60? This isn't new and it isn't rocket science. The other thing it will do is "prohibit" speculative ticketing. Something that doesn't really effect anybody not willing to spend 40x face value to see Taylor Swift. I buy tickets from original sellers and resellers, and speculative ticketing has never been a factor in anything.

In the meantime, absolutely nothing will be done about ticket resellers and bots, which is actually at the heart of the problem. I suspect that because of this phony economy of ours, which relies on money constantly moving around like a shell game, congress doesn't actually want to eliminate scalpers. They move money and they pay taxes. Until this happens, and the artists get to control whether or not their tickets get resold, nothing changes. Ted Cruz will pat himself on the back, though, for protecting us from those evil Ticketbastard people.

https://americansongwriter.com/__trashed-9/

And here's LN/TM's proposal, which would help if properly enforced.

https://www.livenationentertainment.com/2023/02/live-nation-entertainment-announces-support-for-a-fair-ticketing-act/
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Offline cramx3

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Re: Ticketmaster finally going down?
« Reply #163 on: June 13, 2023, 02:03:11 PM »
Yeah... that doesn't really move the needle, but somehow, it does seem that there's still people out there that don't understand the price of the ticket after fees thing.  I think putting the full price out there makes a lot of sense, but yeah, doesn't actually change a damn thing.

Offline SoundscapeMN

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Re: Ticketmaster finally going down?
« Reply #164 on: June 13, 2023, 02:05:23 PM »
Well, we didn't used to call them Ticketbastards for nothing. :lol

Ticketmasochist

Offline El Barto

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Re: Ticketmaster finally going down?
« Reply #165 on: June 13, 2023, 02:09:44 PM »
Yeah... that doesn't really move the needle, but somehow, it does seem that there's still people out there that don't understand the price of the ticket after fees thing.  I think putting the full price out there makes a lot of sense, but yeah, doesn't actually change a damn thing.
I think there are times when the percentage is so drastic that it freaks people out. Wasn't it The Cult's reunion tour where the fees were more than the tickets? Even though I understood what had happened it looks terrible. I just have a hard time imagining people who don't know that extra fees will be added on. Even the old people we used to consider victims of technology, the guy who wants to take his 3 kids to the circus, have been around long enough to have seen this before.
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Offline cramx3

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Re: Ticketmaster finally going down?
« Reply #166 on: June 13, 2023, 02:14:12 PM »
Yeah... that doesn't really move the needle, but somehow, it does seem that there's still people out there that don't understand the price of the ticket after fees thing.  I think putting the full price out there makes a lot of sense, but yeah, doesn't actually change a damn thing.
I think there are times when the percentage is so drastic that it freaks people out. Wasn't it The Cult's reunion tour where the fees were more than the tickets? Even though I understood what had happened it looks terrible. I just have a hard time imagining people who don't know that extra fees will be added on. Even the old people we used to consider victims of technology, the guy who wants to take his 3 kids to the circus, have been around long enough to have seen this before.

I just see people always complaining about the fees on twitter like it's something new.  The reality is, for these big shows of famous artists, you're going to pull out people who don't normall go to concerts and they'll experience this for the first time. Funny thing about the fees being more than the ticket... just experienced this for the first time when we booked our hotel in AC a couple weeks ago.  Harrahs was only charging $25 for the room, but the fees were $40. Never seen that before for a hotel, but it's similar to the Cult.  There's going to be a floor minimum fee before the % of the room is higher than that floor.

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Re: Ticketmaster finally going down?
« Reply #167 on: June 13, 2023, 02:30:36 PM »
I think Ticketmaster removed the show price with fees thing on the page where you select your seat and before you hit checkout.  Again, this means nothing to me since when I go to them or AXS, if I see a price, I assumed the actual price is what you see + 30% of the ticket price when you go to the checkout page.

Offline KevShmev

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Re: Ticketmaster finally going down?
« Reply #168 on: June 13, 2023, 06:08:29 PM »
The fact that scalpers are allowed to sell tickets on TM's actual site tells me that they have no interest in fixing anything, and I doubt the politicians do either.  It's all just window-dressing.  I know there is a lot of nuance to it, a lot of which Barto has covered nicely in this thread (among others), but I don't expect any significant changes to happen in my lifetime.

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Re: Ticketmaster finally going down?
« Reply #169 on: June 14, 2023, 06:26:12 AM »
The fact that scalpers are allowed to sell tickets on TM's actual site tells me that they have no interest in fixing anything, and I doubt the politicians do either.  It's all just window-dressing.  I know there is a lot of nuance to it, a lot of which Barto has covered nicely in this thread (among others), but I don't expect any significant changes to happen in my lifetime.

Does that mean they give a kick back to the artist, though?  I'm not nearly as bothered by scalpers as most are, since I understand the economics of it.  The only part I don't like is having the "profit" go into the hands of a "lucky" third party.   But it would be nice if the artist was able to get a piece of that vig.

Offline El Barto

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Re: Ticketmaster finally going down?
« Reply #170 on: June 14, 2023, 08:36:28 AM »
The fact that scalpers are allowed to sell tickets on TM's actual site tells me that they have no interest in fixing anything, and I doubt the politicians do either.  It's all just window-dressing.  I know there is a lot of nuance to it, a lot of which Barto has covered nicely in this thread (among others), but I don't expect any significant changes to happen in my lifetime.

Does that mean they give a kick back to the artist, though?  I'm not nearly as bothered by scalpers as most are, since I understand the economics of it.  The only part I don't like is having the "profit" go into the hands of a "lucky" third party.   But it would be nice if the artist was able to get a piece of that vig.
Certainly no kickback. At least not directly. The artist gets what the artist gets for each and every ticket. TM simply charges the exact same fees they always do, but in this case a second time. I buy a $50 ticket from TM for $75. I then sell that ticket for $100, and TM charges the buyer $150. Sweet gig if you can pull it off.  The artists do get screwed on that profit, which is why TM has been offering their dynamic pricing to the artists, should they wish it (and the small fry might not have a choice). When Tool is selling their best seats for $125, and TM is listing them for $600, it's so the artist gets that extra $475 rather than some scalper. I really don't object to that.

Of course the solution is to allow artists to place strict limits on whether or not tickets can be resold. I suspect most of them wouldn't want a total ban, "sorry your mom died but that ticket's yours, use it or lose it." And I'm guessing that's the ostensible reason some douchebag like Cruz would be opposed to a ban on scalping. Flexibility has been the ethical explanation for scalpers for a long while. I do think a whole lot of artists would be fine with resell for limited or no profit, though. I'd be fine with reselling and a 10% profit cap. There are any number of ways to give the consumer some flexibility while also preventing third party price gouging.

Also, I'd love to see this because I'd love to find out which artists care about offering affordable tickets to their fans and which ones are quietly happy with the way things are working out. If Metallica puts a no-profit resell policy on their tickets, will they still use the dynamic pricing model? No need for it since there's no secondary market, but highly profitable for them.
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Offline cramx3

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Re: Ticketmaster finally going down?
« Reply #171 on: June 14, 2023, 08:42:33 AM »
Of course the solution is to allow artists to place strict limits on whether or not tickets can be resold. I suspect most of them wouldn't want a total ban, "sorry your mom died but that ticket's yours, use it or lose it." And I'm guessing that's the ostensible reason some douchebag like Cruz would be opposed to a ban on scalping. Flexibility has been the ethical explanation for scalpers for a long while. I do think a whole lot of artists would be fine with resell for limited or no profit, though. I'd be fine with reselling and a 10% profit cap. There are any number of ways to give the consumer some flexibility while also preventing third party price gouging.

Also, I'd love to see this because I'd love to find out which artists care about offering affordable tickets to their fans and which ones are quietly happy with the way things are working out. If Metallica puts a no-profit resell policy on their tickets, will they still use the dynamic pricing model? No need for it since there's no secondary market, but highly profitable for them.

I think this is where we are heading.  Artists I think already have the option to limit pricing on resales.  Also, they are already limited when you get your tickets.  For example, Spiritbox's NA tour was completely sold out.  I had a ticket for both NYC nights but was only going to one (they announced the first one and then later the second date but the second date worked better for me, I was not intent on trying to sell the ticket initially) I put it on stub hub but had to wait until the day before the show to actually transfer it because they didn't release the tickets until then. I noticed this for the VV concert too and the Rhapsody concert (tickets weren't in my livenation account until the day before the show).  I think some bands will not only continue to do that, but also place limits on how much higher you can resell a ticket, but not every band is going to do that.

Offline El Barto

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Re: Ticketmaster finally going down?
« Reply #172 on: June 14, 2023, 08:59:10 AM »
Of course the solution is to allow artists to place strict limits on whether or not tickets can be resold. I suspect most of them wouldn't want a total ban, "sorry your mom died but that ticket's yours, use it or lose it." And I'm guessing that's the ostensible reason some douchebag like Cruz would be opposed to a ban on scalping. Flexibility has been the ethical explanation for scalpers for a long while. I do think a whole lot of artists would be fine with resell for limited or no profit, though. I'd be fine with reselling and a 10% profit cap. There are any number of ways to give the consumer some flexibility while also preventing third party price gouging.

Also, I'd love to see this because I'd love to find out which artists care about offering affordable tickets to their fans and which ones are quietly happy with the way things are working out. If Metallica puts a no-profit resell policy on their tickets, will they still use the dynamic pricing model? No need for it since there's no secondary market, but highly profitable for them.

I think this is where we are heading.  Artists I think already have the option to limit pricing on resales.  Also, they are already limited when you get your tickets.  For example, Spiritbox's NA tour was completely sold out.  I had a ticket for both NYC nights but was only going to one (they announced the first one and then later the second date but the second date worked better for me, I was not intent on trying to sell the ticket initially) I put it on stub hub but had to wait until the day before the show to actually transfer it because they didn't release the tickets until then. I noticed this for the VV concert too and the Rhapsody concert (tickets weren't in my livenation account until the day before the show).  I think some bands will not only continue to do that, but also place limits on how much higher you can resell a ticket, but not every band is going to do that.
As I understand it, prohibitions on resell are on a state by state basis, and NY is one of only six states that can prohibit it. At the same time, without state backing people are pretty much on the honour system. Pearl Jam requested only face value exchange for their Fort Worth show, but there are a gazillion tickets for sell on TickPick with ridiculous markups. This is part of what TM/LN is on about with their Fair Ticketing Act proposal.
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Online Stadler

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Re: Ticketmaster finally going down?
« Reply #173 on: June 14, 2023, 10:25:21 AM »
The fact that scalpers are allowed to sell tickets on TM's actual site tells me that they have no interest in fixing anything, and I doubt the politicians do either.  It's all just window-dressing.  I know there is a lot of nuance to it, a lot of which Barto has covered nicely in this thread (among others), but I don't expect any significant changes to happen in my lifetime.

Does that mean they give a kick back to the artist, though?  I'm not nearly as bothered by scalpers as most are, since I understand the economics of it.  The only part I don't like is having the "profit" go into the hands of a "lucky" third party.   But it would be nice if the artist was able to get a piece of that vig.
Certainly no kickback. At least not directly. The artist gets what the artist gets for each and every ticket. TM simply charges the exact same fees they always do, but in this case a second time. I buy a $50 ticket from TM for $75. I then sell that ticket for $100, and TM charges the buyer $150. Sweet gig if you can pull it off.  The artists do get screwed on that profit, which is why TM has been offering their dynamic pricing to the artists, should they wish it (and the small fry might not have a choice). When Tool is selling their best seats for $125, and TM is listing them for $600, it's so the artist gets that extra $475 rather than some scalper. I really don't object to that.

Of course the solution is to allow artists to place strict limits on whether or not tickets can be resold. I suspect most of them wouldn't want a total ban, "sorry your mom died but that ticket's yours, use it or lose it." And I'm guessing that's the ostensible reason some douchebag like Cruz would be opposed to a ban on scalping. Flexibility has been the ethical explanation for scalpers for a long while. I do think a whole lot of artists would be fine with resell for limited or no profit, though. I'd be fine with reselling and a 10% profit cap. There are any number of ways to give the consumer some flexibility while also preventing third party price gouging.

Also, I'd love to see this because I'd love to find out which artists care about offering affordable tickets to their fans and which ones are quietly happy with the way things are working out. If Metallica puts a no-profit resell policy on their tickets, will they still use the dynamic pricing model? No need for it since there's no secondary market, but highly profitable for them.

Back in the day when scalpers would hang in front of the arena and whisper "got two!" at you when you walked by, that was the law in CT.  You COULD resell, but there was a cap.  I've told the story here before; I went down to New Haven to see Kiss on the first leg of the reunion tour, and a dude had like sixth row.  I was prepped to give him $100 for what was if I remember right like a $40 dollar ticket.  As the dude is holding out the ticket and I'm reaching for my cash, another guy walks up in street clothes and pulls a badge on a chain out of his shirt (side bar: I thought cops didn't wear ties or neckwear for fear of being choked in a fight?) flashed it at the guy and said "you're selling that for face value, right?"  I didn't say a word, thinking the deal was over, but the kid panicked and said "yes officer" so I gave him the price of the ticket (might have been rounded up to the nearest ten) and he ran away.  I half expected him to circle back and meet me at the door for the rest of his money, but I never saw him again. 

I felt bad; I'm sure the kid thought that was staged, but honest to god it wasn't.  Great show too.

Offline KevShmev

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Re: Ticketmaster finally going down?
« Reply #174 on: June 14, 2023, 05:37:32 PM »
That's a great story, Bill!

When I saw Priest a couple years ago (fall of 2021, I think), I literally decided to go at the last minute and drove to the venue prepared to buy a last minute ticket. I didn't buy one online before I left in the hopes that someone out front would have one for less than face value (which was around $75 maybe), and as luck would have it, I passed by a guy who was more than happy to sell one of the tickets he was still trying to unload to me for $20.  :hat :hat

Damn good show as well!