"Must-have" or huge classic albums that you "don't get"?

[pg1067]

but it's important to know WHAT a band is doing with their influences, no?

This might be important if you're writing a biography or some sort of historical essay, but as a fan, I don't think it's important.  I was vaguely interested in Rush's Feedback, but I listened to it once and didn't like the songs and don't think I've listened to any of them in however many years it's been since that EP was released.  For some folks, it's enough to like Artist X, without knowing all of the influences that created that artist.

[Indiscipline]

Even though I'm in the "putting things into historical perspective" camp, I agree that getting or not an album/artist is such a complex chaotic process spanning the whole sentimental-to-intellectual-to-visceral spectrum (not forgetting the time and place factors) that knowing its precise context inside music history may result irrelevant to many.

But - and a big one at it - once you don't get an album you may want to ask why it's considered a "huge classic" or seminal recording moment, and I feel the answer almost always lies within its historical context (it featured something never explored before, resonated with a particular generational moment, created/renovated a genre, etc.)

tl,dr: You don't need to know your history to get an historical album, but most of the times you need it in order to understand why it's a huge classic despite going meh in your appreciation.


Props to Katt citing Palestrina, the man who started it all.

King Crimson need more love.

[Stadler]

Well, I guess it's "to-may-to/to-mah-to".   FOR ME (and I totally get that what works for me doesn't necessarily work for other people) it's a more enriching experience knowing how Eddie VH or Ace took the same music - Eric Clapton (music I've listened to for years) -  and turned it into enduring classics that don't sound anything alike.    That to me is interesting and impressive.

[Adami]

Well, I guess it's "to-may-to/to-mah-to".   FOR ME (and I totally get that what works for me doesn't necessarily work for other people) it's a more enriching experience knowing how Eddie VH or Ace took the same music - Eric Clapton (music I've listened to for years) -  and turned it into enduring classics that don't sound anything alike.    That to me is interesting and impressive.

But where does it end? I like Metallica. Do I have to delve into all of the NWOBHM bands they took influence from? What about their influences? And their influences? And so forth and so forth?

It seems you're going back to direct influences only and then stopping there. That's cool, but ultimately a random decision to stop there and not anywhere else.

[The Walrus]

I spent an hour this morning digging through some old textbooks of mine just listening to Palestrina and other members of the Ancient Fogey Posse because of this discussion. 

[Adami]

I spent an hour this morning digging through some old textbooks of mine just listening to Palestrina and other members of the Ancient Fogey Posse because of this discussion. 

And what about their influences?!?!

[The Walrus]

I spent an hour this morning digging through some old textbooks of mine just listening to Palestrina and other members of the Ancient Fogey Posse because of this discussion. 

And what about their influences?!?!

Yeah! How can you appreciate music if you haven't even read about the Seikilos epitaph?! 

I'm taking the piss out of this to poke slight fun at Stadler, but I hope he knows I totally understand where he's coming from, it's just a matter of personal opinion where we differ; I think it only really matters if you're going to be discussing the influence of a given work or artist, or where a given artist got his inspiration. As far as listening and simply enjoying sounds, nah, not that important.

[Stadler]

Well, I guess it's "to-may-to/to-mah-to".   FOR ME (and I totally get that what works for me doesn't necessarily work for other people) it's a more enriching experience knowing how Eddie VH or Ace took the same music - Eric Clapton (music I've listened to for years) -  and turned it into enduring classics that don't sound anything alike.    That to me is interesting and impressive.

But where does it end? I like Metallica. Do I have to delve into all of the NWOBHM bands they took influence from? What about their influences? And their influences? And so forth and so forth?

It seems you're going back to direct influences only and then stopping there. That's cool, but ultimately a random decision to stop there and not anywhere else.

Not really; I already know the pedigree for Maiden, Seger and Sabbath, so I don't need to do that.  I don't really care about Discharge or the Anti-Nowhere League, so there's that, and the real insight is Diamond Head and Mercyful Fate.  I know from doing this with Guns and Roses, I got some good music and good insight.   The Sex Pistols, for example.   

Hey, look, I can read a room as well as the next guy; this isn't popular.  Whatevs.   It's fulfilling and enriching to me.

[Adami]

I spent an hour this morning digging through some old textbooks of mine just listening to Palestrina and other members of the Ancient Fogey Posse because of this discussion. 

And what about their influences?!?!

Yeah! How can you appreciate music if you haven't even read about the Seikilos epitaph?! 

I'm taking the piss out of this to poke slight fun at Stadler, but I hope he knows I totally understand where he's coming from, it's just a matter of personal opinion where we differ; I think it only really matters if you're going to be discussing the influence of a given work or artist, or where a given artist got his inspiration. As far as listening and simply enjoying sounds, nah, not that important.

Personally I trace all of my music back to Hurrian Hymn No. 6. At that point though, I realize I can't fully appreciate THAT piece because I dunno what influenced it. It's a depressing life.

[Adami]

Well, I guess it's "to-may-to/to-mah-to".   FOR ME (and I totally get that what works for me doesn't necessarily work for other people) it's a more enriching experience knowing how Eddie VH or Ace took the same music - Eric Clapton (music I've listened to for years) -  and turned it into enduring classics that don't sound anything alike.    That to me is interesting and impressive.

But where does it end? I like Metallica. Do I have to delve into all of the NWOBHM bands they took influence from? What about their influences? And their influences? And so forth and so forth?

It seems you're going back to direct influences only and then stopping there. That's cool, but ultimately a random decision to stop there and not anywhere else.

Not really; I already know the pedigree for Maiden, Seger and Sabbath, so I don't need to do that.  I don't really care about Discharge or the Anti-Nowhere League, so there's that, and the real insight is Diamond Head and Mercyful Fate.  I know from doing this with Guns and Roses, I got some good music and good insight.   The Sex Pistols, for example.   

Hey, look, I can read a room as well as the next guy; this isn't popular.  Whatevs.   It's fulfilling and enriching to me.

It can be, but only if, like you, we pick choose when we do it and with whom, as opposed to a blanket philosophy. That's how I got into Rush and stuff. But do I care who influenced Rush? Not really. Could I find some music I might like if I spent hours/days going into all of their influences? Probably. Do I want to or have the time to actually do that? Nah.

[Sacul]

For myself, I'd say it is David Bowie's Heroes - title track is wonderful, but the rest of the album I can't recall a single note.

Oh and In The Aeroplane Over The Sea seriously what's the hype for that album about

That album is so ridiculous yet so fucking emotionally raw, I can't help but sing along 

[jammindude]

Adami...

By saying "where does it end", you are concerning yourself with a destination...not the joy of the exploration.

[Fritzinger]

Most things that come to mind for me were already mentioned...

I just don't get OK Computer, neither do I get Kid A. I really like A Moon Shaped Pool though. Am I weird?

Operation: Mindcrime is highly overrated imho. So many things on this album are Pink Floyd rip offs, has anyone noticed that?

Concerning "classic" bands, I could never get into AC/DC, Sabbath, Maiden. That is not saying they're bad, I just can't get into their stuff.

I love Rush, but I think they have released lots of albums better than 2112. They managed to write a concise 20 min song on Hemispheres. 2112 seems kind of fragmented to me. I even like Snakes & Arrows and Vapor Trails more than 2112 (ok I'll go now)

[PowerSlave]

Operation: Mindcrime is highly overrated imho. So many things on this album are Pink Floyd rip offs, has anyone noticed that?

I never really noticed the PF "ripoffs" until the the next two albums after that one. Or are you mentioning the sound effects and various other tie-ins between the songs that are serving the story line?

[IDontNotDoThings]

Back in Black by AC/DC.  I love the title track; "Hells Bells" is pretty cool; and "You Shook Me All Night Long" is a fun party song (albeit now so overplayed that I really don't need to hear it again), but I think the rest of the album is no better than mediocre and cannot comprehend how it is one of the best selling albums in history.

Wow, I'm surprised to read this. I've heard Shoot To Thrill on the radio a couple of times in the past few weeks and it stopped me dead in my tracks. This was a real coming of musical age album for me.

So you've heard of AC/DC?

Hm.

TAC/TDC

[Fritzinger]

Operation: Mindcrime is highly overrated imho. So many things on this album are Pink Floyd rip offs, has anyone noticed that?

I never really noticed the PF "ripoffs" until the the next two albums after that one. Or are you mentioning the sound effects and various other tie-ins between the songs that are serving the story line?

Well, maybe I wasn't using the correct word. Not really ripoffs, but too many things that sound like Pink Floyd, that it can't be a coincidence 
For example, the passage between Spreading The Disease and The Mission: You can hear a radio- or TV-reporter, bells, a heartbeat (!) a talking voice and a distant keyboard sound coming from somewhere. Seriously? It's almost impossible to bring more Pink Floyd into this moment  Whenever I hear this, I'm always waiting for the faded-in "aaaaaah"s and the words "is there anybody out there".
Another example, the beginning of Eyes Of A Stranger and Pink Floyd's Empty Spaces.

I don't want to say this album it shite, because I actually love 3-4 songs from Operation: Mindcrime. Revolution Calling is by far the best song on the album (for me), and I really like I Don't Believe In Love and Eyes Of A Stranger (despite the little Pink Floyd, erh, resemblance).


But in total, I really can't understand some opinions about it being the best album ever made, the ultimate prog-metal album etc.

[MirrorMask]

Hey, look, I can read a room as well as the next guy; this isn't popular.  Whatevs.   It's fulfilling and enriching to me.

If it's any consolation, Jon Schaffer from Iced Earth spent the entirety of the liner notes of their cover album "Tribute to the Gods" (actually a disc in a boxset of remastered stuff) making your precise point, and urging people to go and find the inspirations for their favorite band to understand and appreciate better the music. Of course he's a guitarist and songwriter so for him it has more purpouse than for the casual fan, but he still insisted on this.

[WildRanger]

But in total, I really can't understand some opinions about it being the best album ever made, the ultimate prog-metal album etc.

I never found O:M to be prog metal at all.

[ReaperKK]

Anything by Queen..

I sort of agree.

I went through the whole queen discography a few months back and while every album had great songs every album also had some terrible songs.

[WildRanger]

Anything by Queen..

I sort of agree.

I went through the whole queen discography a few months back and while every album had great songs every album also had some terrible songs.

What is/are a terrible track(s) on Sheer Heart Attack?

[Cool Chris]

I went through the whole queen discography a few months back and while every album had great songs every album also had some terrible songs.

I tend to think of Queen in term of songs rather than albums for this very reason. Even with Night at the Opera, I don't think they have a start to finish top shelf album, though a collection of their "Greatest Hits" would stand tall next to any band.

[The Walrus]

Queen II kicks ass.

[Ruba]

I've heard of OK Computer, but I'm not sure I've ever heard a single song from it (I'm looking at the track list, and none of the titles sound like anything I've ever heard.  According to Wikipedia, this album has sold about 2.5 million copies in the U.S. (about on par with Bon Jovi's Crush), but the Wikipedia article is longer than the articles for some U.S. presidents.  I think maybe the only Radiohead song I've ever heard was "Creep," which I sought out about a year ago (for some reason I can't now remember) and thought it sucked hard.

To be fair, Creep is only an image of what Radiohead sounded on their debut album. If you've only listened to it, it's almost like if the only Dream Theater song you knew was Afterlife. Although Thom Yorke's vocal style has remained pretty consistent throughout the years and if you don't like him, you might not like Radiohead.

I must second everyone who has said The Black Album. Sure, it was my gateway album to metal and I loved it to death when I was 12,  but looking back maybe half of the album has stood the test of time. And considering it was follow-up to ...And Justice for All, it makes it all more disappointing. So I got it when I was younger.

But in total, I really can't understand some opinions about it being the best album ever made, the ultimate prog-metal album etc.

I never found O:M to be prog metal at all.

At all is pretty harsh. There's Suite Sister Mary, and if that's not progressive metal, then I'm the queen of England. But I've never thought it as a prog album. Half of it could be played classic rock radio anyday. That doesn't mean it's bad by any means, I find the story intriguing and music top notch.

[jammindude]

Re: OK Computer

This album has floated by my recommended list ever since it came out.  Every time I *sat down* to take in this album, I just didn't get it at all.   

But last year, I finally got around to digitizing my music collection, and I threw a mixture of albums I love and albums I've been meaning to check out more on shuffle while I was working.   And suddenly, every time a song from OK Computer came on, I was like "This is cool...what is this?"   

I will go so far as to say that OK Computer is boring and hard to get into the same way that Dark Side of the Moon (with the possibly exception of Money) is somewhat boring and hard to get into the first time you hear it.    I mean, today I find DSOTM to be one of the most brilliant albums ever made, but the first time I heard it when I was an ADD 12 year old, I just kept wondering if they were actually going to DO anything.   Because I didn't get it.  I didn't understand the concept.  I didn't get the story of "On the Run", I didn't understand how it all fit together. 

OK Computer is still growing on me, even after a year.   But the "growers" are usually the albums that stick with me the longest.   

[JLa]

Rush - 2112. I like the first few minutes (think it's the two first parts of the suite? Maybe just the first, can't remember) of the title track, that's it.

[Crow]

Edge of Sanity - Crimson
why do people freak out over this garbage sounding album, maybe the composition is good I dunno it's impossible to tell half the time though

"Must-have" or "huge classic" albums.

considering how many melodeath bands have been chasing after this album in particular for two decades I think it counts within its own genre

[The Walrus]

Crimson is absolutely a massive landmark album.

Maybe not to Grayhairs like Stadler, though

[Crow]

I also think burzum's two big albums both suck so

[TAC]

So some have said Metallica's TBA. When it came out, I was mortified at first. Some tasty bits, but WTF..

But it has really aged well. Mainly for two reasons.
First, the production is AMAZING!!
Second, frankly, they haven't released anything better since!

[Stadler]

Re: OK Computer

This album has floated by my recommended list ever since it came out.  Every time I *sat down* to take in this album, I just didn't get it at all.   

But last year, I finally got around to digitizing my music collection, and I threw a mixture of albums I love and albums I've been meaning to check out more on shuffle while I was working.   And suddenly, every time a song from OK Computer came on, I was like "This is cool...what is this?"   

I will go so far as to say that OK Computer is boring and hard to get into the same way that Dark Side of the Moon (with the possibly exception of Money) is somewhat boring and hard to get into the first time you hear it.    I mean, today I find DSOTM to be one of the most brilliant albums ever made, but the first time I heard it when I was an ADD 12 year old, I just kept wondering if they were actually going to DO anything.   Because I didn't get it.  I didn't understand the concept.  I didn't get the story of "On the Run", I didn't understand how it all fit together. 

OK Computer is still growing on me, even after a year.   But the "growers" are usually the albums that stick with me the longest.

No offense, bud, but DSOTM was NEVER "somewhat boring and hard to get into".   That opening suite hit me on first listen and has yet to fade, and "Us And Them" was as beautiful and elegiac then as it is now.   OK Computer is actually getting WORSE each time I listen to it (it's not as frequent as p/g, but I periodically give it a listen to make sure I haven't grown into it.  I haven't.)

[TAC]

DSOTM IS boring and hard to get into.

[King Postwhore]

DSOTM IS boring and hard to get into.

Tim, even when you were high as a teen? 

[TAC]

DSOTM IS boring and hard to get into.

Tim, even when you were high as a teen? 

Well, that's what got me into Wish You Were Here. I don't think DSOTM is anywhere close to that.

[Adami]

I can't get into DSOTM because I find it boring.

[Crow]

animals is the best floyd album anyways so the entire discussion is irrelevant