How do you feel about touring band members being replaced?

[Anguyen92]

Relating to this topic, last year, Five Finger Death Punch's singer, Ivan Moody, was replaced mid-tour during their Summer tour in Europe and I believe either he didn't know he was being replaced mid-tour or he had some personal issues and needed a break or that he was pissed off with the band, whatever.  He was replaced by this guy name Tommy Vext and another forum I frequent that was following this FFDP trainwreck honestly admitted that Tommy Vext did a good job during the tour and wouldn't mind seeing the new guy be the permanent singer for FFDP.

In the end, though, Ivan Moody went into rehab, made up with FFDP, and released a craptastic album called And Justice for None........  Tommy Vext, on the other hand, is in this band called Bad Wolves and their cover of Cranberries' Zombies really got their career going and their debut album, Disobey, is an all right modern hard rock album (nothing too ground-breaking, but tolerable modern radio rock).  Much better than the tripe that FFDP released this year.

[Zook]

I didn't read the thread, but if a band member needs to take a leave of absence, the other members can't just put their careers on hold and wait for them. Touring is all most bands have for income. Some members don't like being temporarily replaced, while others are cool with it. Portnoy helped Stone Sour out while their drummer was away, but he came back.

I remember when I saw Queensryche for the first time, my step dad said he didn't recognize the guitar player, but I don't think that detracted from his enjoyment of the show. Getting a temporary replacement is better than cancelling the show.

[Architeuthis]

Nightwish is a interesting case in this regard. Their original drummer Jukka was suffering from insomnia and he himself had Kai Hahto replace him on the drums for the next album (EFMB) and the following tour. I personally like Kai's drumming even better, but I was late on the NW bandwagon. Now I wouldn't be surprised if Kai is their permanent drummer.
 Also the changes in vocalists, now they have Floor Jansen which makes the band better than ever imo. I hope they keep this line-up.

[MirrorMask]

As far as I remember, the original announcement was about Jukka sitting out the entire album and tour. Now they're touring behind a greatest hits and I assume that somehow still qualifies as the tour cycle for the last album, 'cause I don't remember any footnote in the tour announcement about "oh, btw, yes, Jukka is still on leave". I guess the time of truth will come with the new album next year, Jukka is still "in" the band 'cause he follows the finances so it's not that he has not relations with the band, but they'll have to consider wether he will ever reprise his drumming duties or not.

[Stadler]

At what point does the band cease to be the band though? Theoretically you could keep replacing members of bands over time, so a band can continue in name in perpetuum, just by replacing one member with another when said member leaves, dies, or whatever.

Yes does not now have any original members.  I do not at all consider them to be "illegitimate".  Steve and Alan have, in particular, paid their dues.

I would agree with that. And yet I won't spend any money to see them after Squire died. They might still be Yes, but they're not the same Yes.

Even though I was the one to point out that they're legit (and I believe they are), I'm with you.  I've seen them easily 10 times already, and I don't need to see them again without Chris Squire there.  Pretty much no one else in 2018 can get away with the knee-high boots, flowing cape, and shock white hair. 

I've actually seen Metallica on multiple tours with John Marshall on guitar. Just a Dallas fluke, I suppose. One of them was a unique experience with multiple guests coming out from the package lineup to replace Hetfield. Most memorably Kid Rock's midget running around screaming "yeah motherfucker!" all the time. I'm glad I got to see it. It was not a Metallica show, though. I certainly wouldn't have gone to see it if I knew what it was going to be, enjoyable though it was. Thankfully they came back a month later and put on an even more memorable show.

Was that when he hurt his arm?  I'm assuming that Het sang, right?

[El Barto]

I've actually seen Metallica on multiple tours with John Marshall on guitar. Just a Dallas fluke, I suppose. One of them was a unique experience with multiple guests coming out from the package lineup to replace Hetfield. Most memorably Kid Rock's midget running around screaming "yeah motherfucker!" all the time. I'm glad I got to see it. It was not a Metallica show, though. I certainly wouldn't have gone to see it if I knew what it was going to be, enjoyable though it was. Thankfully they came back a month later and put on an even more memorable show.

Was that when he hurt his arm?  I'm assuming that Het sang, right?

That was one of them. His arm was in a cast so he sang and Marshall played guitar. I'm not sure but that might have been the same situation after he blew himself up years later. I was kind of hammered at that show, so it's a bit foggy. The one I was referring to with Kid Rock's midget he wasn't even in the country. Bad back, I think. Something about jet ski accident. The crowd and Newstead sang Creeping, Bellz, and Seek, which was awesome. After that various guests came out to sing and/or play guitar. That's when it went down hill. Here's the rundown for who did what.
https://www.setlist.fm/setlist/metallica/2000/texas-stadium-irving-tx-63d6e21f.html

[Stadler]

I've actually seen Metallica on multiple tours with John Marshall on guitar. Just a Dallas fluke, I suppose. One of them was a unique experience with multiple guests coming out from the package lineup to replace Hetfield. Most memorably Kid Rock's midget running around screaming "yeah motherfucker!" all the time. I'm glad I got to see it. It was not a Metallica show, though. I certainly wouldn't have gone to see it if I knew what it was going to be, enjoyable though it was. Thankfully they came back a month later and put on an even more memorable show.

Was that when he hurt his arm?  I'm assuming that Het sang, right?

That was one of them. His arm was in a cast so he sang and Marshall played guitar. I'm not sure but that might have been the same situation after he blew himself up years later. I was kind of hammered at that show, so it's a bit foggy. The one I was referring to with Kid Rock's midget he wasn't even in the country. Bad back, I think. Something about jet ski accident. The crowd and Newstead sang Creeping, Bellz, and Seek, which was awesome. After that various guests came out to sing and/or play guitar. That's when it went down hill. Here's the rundown for who did what.
https://www.setlist.fm/setlist/metallica/2000/texas-stadium-irving-tx-63d6e21f.html

How was Kid Rock?  He can handle those vocals, no? 

[pg1067]

At what point does the band cease to be the band though? Theoretically you could keep replacing members of bands over time, so a band can continue in name in perpetuum, just by replacing one member with another when said member leaves, dies, or whatever.

Yes does not now have any original members.  I do not at all consider them to be "illegitimate".  Steve and Alan have, in particular, paid their dues.

I would agree with that. And yet I won't spend any money to see them after Squire died. They might still be Yes, but they're not the same Yes.

This reminds me of a comment Rick Wakeman made on the YesYears video from 1991.  In a nutshell, he said that he could see Yes existing in perpetuity, regardless of who was in the band, much the same as the London Philharmonic continues to exist, regardless of who the individual musicians are.  It was an interesting comment, but I'm not sure it really works in the rock band context, but the concept certainly will be tested as we move into an era when more and more members of "classic" bands will die with great frequency.

For the time being, Steve Howe and Alan White and a Jon Anderson sound-alike is enough for a lot of folks.  However, in 20 years or so, only Jon Davison and maybe Billy Sherwood are likely to be still alive and active as musicians.  Is anyone going to want to see "Yes" with no ties to the "Yes West" period (much less the band's "classic" period).  For me, I saw the Squire, Howe, White, Downes and Davison lineup in 2013.  With the exception of Davison, they all seemed rather tired, so I have no real desire to see Yes again (I'm on the fence about ARW).

As usual, it depends on the band and/or who might be replaced.

As well as the circumstances of the replacement and the extent to which ticket buyers are notified about what's happening.

[El Barto]

I've actually seen Metallica on multiple tours with John Marshall on guitar. Just a Dallas fluke, I suppose. One of them was a unique experience with multiple guests coming out from the package lineup to replace Hetfield. Most memorably Kid Rock's midget running around screaming "yeah motherfucker!" all the time. I'm glad I got to see it. It was not a Metallica show, though. I certainly wouldn't have gone to see it if I knew what it was going to be, enjoyable though it was. Thankfully they came back a month later and put on an even more memorable show.

Was that when he hurt his arm?  I'm assuming that Het sang, right?

That was one of them. His arm was in a cast so he sang and Marshall played guitar. I'm not sure but that might have been the same situation after he blew himself up years later. I was kind of hammered at that show, so it's a bit foggy. The one I was referring to with Kid Rock's midget he wasn't even in the country. Bad back, I think. Something about jet ski accident. The crowd and Newstead sang Creeping, Bellz, and Seek, which was awesome. After that various guests came out to sing and/or play guitar. That's when it went down hill. Here's the rundown for who did what.
https://www.setlist.fm/setlist/metallica/2000/texas-stadium-irving-tx-63d6e21f.html

How was Kid Rock?  He can handle those vocals, no?

No. He did alright with the rock songs, but made the mistake of bringing out a stool to sit down and sing NEM, which was a trainwreck. Newstead came to the mic afterward and said something to the effect of "man, it took balls to try and do that."

[Adami]

Bart, I am pretty upset with you. I went and looked up Kid Rock and Metallica on Youtube to see how bad it was. Now youtube keeps suggesting Kid Rock videos to me. DAMMIT!

[Samsara]

Bart, I am pretty upset with you. I went and looked up Kid Rock and Metallica on Youtube to see how bad it was. Now youtube keeps suggesting Kid Rock videos to me. DAMMIT!

 

Sucker!

 

[cramx3]

I've actually seen Metallica on multiple tours with John Marshall on guitar. Just a Dallas fluke, I suppose. One of them was a unique experience with multiple guests coming out from the package lineup to replace Hetfield. Most memorably Kid Rock's midget running around screaming "yeah motherfucker!" all the time. I'm glad I got to see it. It was not a Metallica show, though. I certainly wouldn't have gone to see it if I knew what it was going to be, enjoyable though it was. Thankfully they came back a month later and put on an even more memorable show.

Was that when he hurt his arm?  I'm assuming that Het sang, right?

That was one of them. His arm was in a cast so he sang and Marshall played guitar. I'm not sure but that might have been the same situation after he blew himself up years later. I was kind of hammered at that show, so it's a bit foggy. The one I was referring to with Kid Rock's midget he wasn't even in the country. Bad back, I think. Something about jet ski accident. The crowd and Newstead sang Creeping, Bellz, and Seek, which was awesome. After that various guests came out to sing and/or play guitar. That's when it went down hill. Here's the rundown for who did what.
https://www.setlist.fm/setlist/metallica/2000/texas-stadium-irving-tx-63d6e21f.html

How was Kid Rock?  He can handle those vocals, no?

No. He did alright with the rock songs, but made the mistake of bringing out a stool to sit down and sing NEM, which was a trainwreck. Newstead came to the mic afterward and said something to the effect of "man, it took balls to try and do that."

As much as all that sucks, that is one cool concert experience at the end of the day.  Crazy setlist.

[El Barto]

Bart, I am pretty upset with you. I went and looked up Kid Rock and Metallica on Youtube to see how bad it was. Now youtube keeps suggesting Kid Rock videos to me. DAMMIT!

I don't think there were any videos from the Dallas show. By the time they got to Kentucky he'd probably rehearsed it a bit more and learned his limitations. I just recall it being bad enough that Newstead had to vouch for him.

As much as all that sucks, that is one cool concert experience at the end of the day.  Crazy setlist.

I don't care for KR or Korn, and I absolutely despise System of a Down, so it was interesting but that's about it, honestly. The crowd singing the first 20 minutes was the highlight. That really was awesome.

The other highlight was the makeup gig, where they packed most of their stadium PA under the shed at Starplex and ruined the hearing of 21,000 fans. I say most because plenty wouldn't fit and was stacked at the back of the lawn facing back in.  You've been to Starplex. It's a big shed. They had cabs stacked floor to ceiling all the way out to the walls. It was highly fucking gratuitous.

[Adami]

Bart, I am pretty upset with you. I went and looked up Kid Rock and Metallica on Youtube to see how bad it was. Now youtube keeps suggesting Kid Rock videos to me. DAMMIT!

I don't think there were any videos from the Dallas show. By the time they got to Kentucky he'd probably rehearsed it a bit more and learned his limitations. I just recall it being bad enough that Newstead had to vouch for him.

[MirrorMask]

Some food for thought about band members being replaced until there's no one left... how long do you think this can go on? could it be a trend of the future?

People pay good money to hear world class musicians perform music written by composers dead centuries ago. Could this apply to modern and rock / pop music as well?

First example that comes to mind is Kiss, where you have characters as players and you could put other people in makeup and the show would look essentially the same.

But what about other more subtle examples? say that David Gilmour and Roger Waters come to an agreement and endorse "The Pink Floyd experience". Musicians hand picked by Gilmour and Waters go out and play PF songs with the full production and stage show that the actual Floyd could afford. Would you go and see it?

How much you'd pay for the "21st Century Beatles", with musicians selected by Paul McCartney and Ringo Starr? what if 85 years old John Petrucci selects musicians for the "Dream Theater experience"? the problem is that we'd all be 80 as well and as big in their genre DT are, will their popularity survive once the band retires for good, to the point that there'd still be enough people wanting to see a concert as close as the original?

Those of you, like me, who don't stomach Ozzy's voice, would go and see a full show of the "Official Black Sabbath Legacy" to hear 2 hours and counting (hey, young musicians have stamina) of Sabbath material sung by a 30-40 years old powerful singer, and pay accordingly?

The examples are endless. I think some could work out and some others could totally not. It depends band by band I guess.

[Max Kuehnau]

I'm all for it, but only when the new member is a technically superior player. That's all that matters to me.

[bosk1]

It's a good question.  To use the Pink Floyd example, I can say that I have paid to see Floyd tribute bands that, to varying degrees, have tried to put on pretty big productions that mimmick what Floyd did, right down to lots of lasers, screens, flying pigs, you name it.  Unlike your examples, there is no pretense that they actually ARE Pink Floyd.  They are tribute bands trying to give us the experience we would have gotten if the actual band were still touring.  And fans turn out in droves for this sort of thing, as long as they feel like they are having a good time.  While there are certainly differences between that and a group purporting to actually BE the group in question, I think the practical result may still be the same--if it's a good experience, people will pay for it.

[Peter Mc]

I think the issue of band members actually leaving or dying is a different question. My question was really about temporary replacements. You have a favourite band and you buy a ticket to see them but, they announce subsequently that someone needs a few weeks off so we’re getting some random you’ve likely never heard of to cover him/her for those shows.

So, for example, we all buy tickets to see Dream Theater and shortly before the tour they announce Jordan Rudess can’t make the first two months of the tour because he’s having some time off so we’re getting in the keyboard player from La Brie’s solo band to cover that period (I know he’s not a no-name but he will be to some).  Putting aside your opinions on the merits of both players, would you be absolutely fine with that or would you think that you weren’t seeing the proper band and feel a bit cheated?

Seems that some bands now feel this is par for the course and I do totally get why in the current climate with the vast majority of their income coming from touring nowadays. I’m just curious as to when fans began to shrug their shoulders and think it didn’t matter that they weren’t seeing the full lineup.

[El Barto]

Some food for thought about band members being replaced until there's no one left... how long do you think this can go on? could it be a trend of the future?

Holograms appear to be the trend of the future. I'd rather see a cover band.

People pay good money to hear world class musicians perform music written by composers dead centuries ago. Could this apply to modern and rock / pop music as well?

Mozart didn't write for a specific person's voice, or technique. Desmond Child would be a better analogy, and people would go to see an evening of his music. Hell, I'm surprised the DSO hasn't already put on "an evening with."

First example that comes to mind is Kiss, where you have characters as players and you could put other people in makeup and the show would look essentially the same.

But what about other more subtle examples? say that David Gilmour and Roger Waters come to an agreement and endorse "The Pink Floyd experience". Musicians hand picked by Gilmour and Waters go out and play PF songs with the full production and stage show that the actual Floyd could afford. Would you go and see it?

How much you'd pay for the "21st Century Beatles", with musicians selected by Paul McCartney and Ringo Starr? what if 85 years old John Petrucci selects musicians for the "Dream Theater experience"? the problem is that we'd all be 80 as well and as big in their genre DT are, will their popularity survive once the band retires for good, to the point that there'd still be enough people wanting to see a concert as close as the original?

Kiss is already half way there. My hunch is that people are more interested in seeing them while they can. I'm not sure there will be a ton of demand when Stanley and Simmons are six feet under. Apologies to Stadler, but the music just isn't that enduring, and the stage show is commonplace even among bands half their size now.

Rain and The Australian Pink Floyd are both doing quite well, selling midsized venues. I know Gilmour has endorsed TAPF.

Those of you, like me, who don't stomach Ozzy's voice, would go and see a full show of the "Official Black Sabbath Legacy" to hear 2 hours and counting (hey, young musicians have stamina) of Sabbath material sung by a 30-40 years old powerful singer, and pay accordingly?

Nope. Ozzy (and Dio) are a major component of Sabbath and it wouldn't be the same without them. Same applies to Iommi and to a lesser extent Geezer. Look at how things went for them during the Tony Martin era, despite the music being excellent. I'd go to see Tony and Geezer with a different singer, but not without those two on board. Personalities matter.

Overall, I think my take on this is based a large part on time. If Kiss just continues on like a machine, as Dio's band is doing, there's not much appeal. Part of the appeal of seeing classical performances is that it's music from a bygone era. Something I think about is what classical music will be in 2218. Will people still be interested in hearing Dvorak? Will they still be interested in hearing Madonna? Metallica? Dream Theater? I'm still discovering music from this century. I'm curious if our ancestors will be discovering obscure bands like Rush and incorporating their style into their own.

[MirrorMask]

So, for example, we all buy tickets to see Dream Theater and shortly before the tour they announce Jordan Rudess can’t make the first two months of the tour because he’s having some time off so we’re getting in the keyboard player from La Brie’s solo band to cover that period (I know he’s not a no-name but he will be to some).  Putting aside your opinions on the merits of both players, would you be absolutely fine with that or would you think that you weren’t seeing the proper band and feel a bit cheated?

I wouldn't be fine, I would be annoyed - and understanding of the situation depending on what forces Jordan to leave - but honestly, I'd still go. Especially if I had already ticket. DT are not a cheap band, and if they hit my country more than once, they'll go in other cities. I get one shot at seeing a tour of a specific album and I won't miss it because of a band member isn't there, especially if said band member isn't the singer or the mastermind (Petrucci). It would suck and it would always be "that concert where Jordan wasn't there", but I'd still be going.

[Samsara]

I think the issue of band members actually leaving or dying is a different question. My question was really about temporary replacements. You have a favourite band and you buy a ticket to see them but, they announce subsequently that someone needs a few weeks off so we’re getting some random you’ve likely never heard of to cover him/her for those shows.

So, for example, we all buy tickets to see Dream Theater and shortly before the tour they announce Jordan Rudess can’t make the first two months of the tour because he’s having some time off so we’re getting in the keyboard player from La Brie’s solo band to cover that period (I know he’s not a no-name but he will be to some).  Putting aside your opinions on the merits of both players, would you be absolutely fine with that or would you think that you weren’t seeing the proper band and feel a bit cheated?

Seems that some bands now feel this is par for the course and I do totally get why in the current climate with the vast majority of their income coming from touring nowadays. I’m just curious as to when fans began to shrug their shoulders and think it didn’t matter that they weren’t seeing the full lineup.

Great post and example. I guess I really don't know. I will say that I wouldn't necessarily LIKE it, unless it was someone from the band's past (say Derek or Kevin). In that case, I feel like there is some connection. But if it was just random dude that was a friend...eh...

[Indiscipline]

Great food for thought by MirrorMask.

I don't find too hard to envision - in about one hundred years - what Portnoy and Gilbert have done with Beatles/Zep/Rush/Who as a sort of common thing on a bigger scale. We will probably have the right world class instrumentalists for the job (sorta like the Berliner Philarmoniker are your go-to ensemble for Beethoven today) but we surely must wait a shitload of time for the originals' charisma and strenght of personality to wear off in the collective conscience, for those are key factors in making us refuse or accept the thought of subs.