Author Topic: ADTOE and I&W  (Read 6312 times)

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Online King Postwhore

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Re: ADTOE and I&W
« Reply #35 on: July 20, 2018, 01:38:32 PM »
You know, I used to really love this album. I thought it was well written and well performed.

Then someone pointed out those similarities, and I despise the album. It's the worst album ever written by humans.

It's technically impossible to enjoy an album that is, in part, an ode to another album.

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Re: ADTOE and I&W
« Reply #36 on: July 20, 2018, 02:15:45 PM »
Awesome conversation...

I have a few thoughts..

* Even though MP was "out there" with social media and an active forum, it certainly appears that JP has his ear to the ground. He was adamant about making an album to reassure (long time) Dream Theater fans that that are still Dream Theater. He had to know that generally speaking, the previous two albums are generally on the bottom of fans' lists. Even shortly after the ADTOE tour started, JP saw the criticisms of having The Great Debate in there and they dropped it from the set..

* You look up Dream Theater in the dictionary and the definition reads Images And Words. I think it's not ridiculous to think that it was at best inspiration and at worst a blueprint. But I feel like they wanted to accomplish a couple of things. Let's start the album in this vain. Let's have a song like Metropolis that has a crazy instrumental section. Let's (basically) end the album with a thoughtful long song like Learning To Live. And then from there, the album just kind of took shape.


would have thought the same thing but seeing the OP was TAC i immediately thought Maiden or DT related
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Offline Ninjabait

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Re: ADTOE and I&W
« Reply #37 on: July 20, 2018, 02:48:27 PM »
From what I've heard and seen, most of the similarities between the songs are superficial. PMU and OtBoA are probably the best case, but even then the songs are so different in their own rights that the comparison falls apart when you look closer. How they use meters is different, the overall mood is somewhat different, the melodies are different, the arrangements are different, and so on. Do the two albums have some stuff in common? Yes. Is ADToE deliberately based on I&W? Probably not. The albums are too unique to really say that there's any recycling.

Also, I think that the similarities in structure don't ruin ADToE. I mean, look at the SoC contest. The results people sent in sound totally different from the actual song! I think that just shows to go ya that you can make totally unique art using an established structure. Now, someone do me a favor and forward that to Marvin Gaye's label

Offline robwebster

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Re: ADTOE and I&W
« Reply #38 on: July 20, 2018, 04:03:50 PM »
For risk of echoing everyone else - Pull Me Under and On the Backs of Angels are too structurally similar for it to be an accident. It'd be fishy on any album, but on a disc with Far from Heaven / Breaking all Illusions, they were definitely doing some kind of deliberate homage.

The bit where the conspiracy theory lost me was "...and therefore ADToE is lazy / repetitive / bad." It'd be like saying Octavarium is lazy because they just wrote all their songs in different keys to fit an octave that already existed. Musically, it is nothing at all like IaW - it sounds more like BCSL (and doesn't *really* sound like that)! It's a neat, subtle reference to the album that launched their careers, that shapes the all-new music without getting in the way of it. The IaW tribute is definitely there and it's neat.

Offline Elite

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Re: ADTOE and I&W
« Reply #39 on: July 20, 2018, 04:27:54 PM »
The IaW tribute is definitely there and it's neat.

Yes.

I actually listened to ADTOE today, for the first time in probably over 5 years and it was quite enjoyable! The vinyl I played was rather bass-heavy though, which muddied Bridges in the Sky especially, but also parts of other songs.
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Offline Addy

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Re: ADTOE and I&W
« Reply #40 on: July 22, 2018, 06:59:32 AM »
Once you notice all these similarities you can't unhear it. Do I have a problem with that? Not at all. Lots of bands write songs on same/similar structures and most people don't even notice. Yes, 5 or even 6 songs from ADToE are basically written on I&W structures but it doesn't make them bad at all. If I was to compare these 5 pairs side to side, I'd say Outcry is overall a better executed song than Metropolis. Unpopular opinion, I know, but to me Outcry instrumental section feels like it's going somewhere, it's more cohesive. The rest of the songs - I think I like the "originals" better. That said, to me ADToE is the best DT album in 21st century (along with 6DOIT) and certainly the best Mangini-era release.

Offline Lethean

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Re: ADTOE and I&W
« Reply #41 on: July 22, 2018, 07:57:06 AM »
People talk about JP being evasive, but I remember an interview where he was asked and pretty much said no.  I haven't found it yet, but I'm pretty sure it was a video interview.

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Re: ADTOE and I&W
« Reply #42 on: July 22, 2018, 09:13:17 AM »
People talk about JP being evasive, but I remember an interview where he was asked and pretty much said no.  I haven't found it yet, but I'm pretty sure it was a video interview.

Yeah I remember such interview. Weird because it's obvious. Same thing with JLB saying he altered his melodies on I&W songs recently to "keep it interesting" without admitting he can't sing them anymore live. And I think there's nothing wrong with any of these.

Offline Progmetty

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Re: ADTOE and I&W
« Reply #43 on: July 22, 2018, 10:02:58 AM »
I still believe that's pretty dumb to consider that a bad point on ADTOE, just like when this whole thing first came up here.
I think they're only similar structurally, they're similar how Master of Puppets and And Justice for All are similar. Placement of similar vibe songs on both albums, track one is a thrasher, track four has clean verses and distorted choruses then instrumental pieces to close, the albums close with an instrumental track followed by the fastest song on the album, which if that last one existed on RTL would make it also identical in structure to MOP & AJFA.
I can also argue they're similar the way Systematic Chaos & Black Clouds are similar, slice Tuscany in half and these albums would be identical. Especially with the singles pairing Constant Motion/Forsaken to Rite of Passage/Wither.
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Offline DragonAttack

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Re: ADTOE and I&W
« Reply #44 on: July 22, 2018, 10:16:28 AM »
Other than this thread, I'd have never thought anything of the two albums having anything in common.  I'll guess this was mentioned prior (but not on this thread).  The comparison reminds me of this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fogerty_v._Fantasy,_Inc.

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Offline Indiscipline

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Re: ADTOE and I&W
« Reply #45 on: July 23, 2018, 09:23:18 AM »
I still believe that's pretty dumb to consider that a bad point on ADTOE, just like when this whole thing first came up here.

Yessir, and I would push the envelope and say it's in fact a very good point on the album. Crafty, nifty, elegant and well executed.

It also reinforced my crazy idea (as it was needed) the guys literally live to fock around and challenge themselves in the studio. Whereas other bands (especially nowadays) strike me as going through the recording motions in order to have fun on tour, DT have always smelled like bearing (gracefully and not without fun) the touring fatigue in order to finally come back to enjoy themselves jamming and creating inside a room.

Offline gm5k

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Re: ADTOE and I&W
« Reply #46 on: July 23, 2018, 04:46:55 PM »
I'm on the side of people that find the similarities pretty obvious on almost every record on the album.  I think Tiago could've maybe worded or handled the situation better, but from what I can remember his analysis was pretty spot on. 

I still quite like ADTOE despite thinking that DT chose to go the route that they did.  Definitely an interesting way to write an album and especially one that was a new beginning. 



« Last Edit: July 23, 2018, 06:31:33 PM by gm5k »

Offline Cool Chris

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Re: ADTOE and I&W
« Reply #47 on: July 23, 2018, 05:01:10 PM »
They may be obvious to many DT fans who have more musical knowledge than the average person. I don't recognize any similarities. And I'd just as soon not think that hard when listening to either album to try and pick them out. I prefer to not know how the sausage is made, so to speak. If someone wants to break down and analyze music that way, that's great if it makes you happy. But I don't think that is really how art is meant to be experienced.
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Offline gm5k

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Re: ADTOE and I&W
« Reply #48 on: July 23, 2018, 05:25:55 PM »
Also it's not just the music or structures, but it's also (like Mangini would say) the toooooone  ;D  For small instance a groove based tom intro along with a clean elec guitar to begin the album.  A key lead melody over the top of that crescendos eventually into a Metallica style chuggy riff where the keys entirely leave for a moment before returning for a staccato-y part before verse beginning. 

That's a small example Of how I might hear things on album when comparing to I&W.  I can definitely hear album without thinking about that stuff though thankfully  :tup

« Last Edit: July 23, 2018, 06:34:59 PM by gm5k »

Offline noxon

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Re: ADTOE and I&W
« Reply #49 on: July 23, 2018, 05:54:42 PM »
I must've slept through the arpeggiated intro to Images and Words every time I heard the album...

Offline gm5k

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Re: ADTOE and I&W
« Reply #50 on: July 23, 2018, 06:00:20 PM »
I must've slept through the arpeggiated intro to Images and Words every time I heard the album...

Ok you're right it's just a couple of notes... 😁  Thought it still counted.  My bad if not. 

There took that word out of my post...

Edit: Yea broken chord I think would apply to PMU, where OTBOA would be more of a classic arpeggiated riff.  Good call. 
« Last Edit: July 23, 2018, 06:36:02 PM by gm5k »

Offline Cool Chris

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Re: ADTOE and I&W
« Reply #51 on: July 23, 2018, 07:05:40 PM »
That actually helps make my point. When I listen to music, I don't hear

For small instance a groove based tom intro along with a clean elec guitar to begin the album.  A key lead melody over the top of that crescendos eventually into a Metallica style chuggy riff where the keys entirely leave for a moment before returning for a staccato-y part before verse beginning. 

I don't even know what half of that means. I may hear all that without knowing what things are called. But I don't hear it like that. If that makes sense.
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Offline gm5k

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Re: ADTOE and I&W
« Reply #52 on: July 23, 2018, 07:15:30 PM »
That actually helps make my point. When I listen to music, I don't hear

For small instance a groove based tom intro along with a clean elec guitar to begin the album.  A key lead melody over the top of that crescendos eventually into a Metallica style chuggy riff where the keys entirely leave for a moment before returning for a staccato-y part before verse beginning. 

I don't even know what half of that means. I may hear all that without knowing what things are called. But I don't hear it like that. If that makes sense.



It completely does make sense, and I don't think you're wrong  :tup ADTOE is amazing.  99% of time I listen to ADTOE those thoughts aren't in my mind.  Just loving the music. 

Offline Devin Townsend

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Re: ADTOE and I&W
« Reply #53 on: July 23, 2018, 10:55:07 PM »
I've always found OTBOA, LNF and BAI in particular to be extremely similar to their I&W counterparts, to the point of undeniability - with the exception being that LNF starts with that long piano intro first...

Offline Ayeegit

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Re: ADTOE and I&W
« Reply #54 on: July 27, 2018, 10:45:51 AM »
Quite a coincidence that this topic re-surfaced on the forums, as I was catching up with a friend at lunch last week and brought up this very same thing.  Nice to read some additional thoughts and background after I was trying to recall the conversations from when ADToE was released.

The one thing I haven't seen mentioned in this latest thread that I *believe* I remember from when it was originally discussed - didn't Portnoy himself come out and say something along these lines after it was released?  Or am I imagining that?

Offline gzarruk

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Re: ADTOE and I&W
« Reply #55 on: July 27, 2018, 11:18:09 AM »
The one thing I haven't seen mentioned in this latest thread that I *believe* I remember from when it was originally discussed - didn't Portnoy himself come out and say something along these lines after it was released?  Or am I imagining that?

He did. IIRC, he had two posts, one echoing Thiago's opinions saying he thought the same thing and that this was them trying to rewrite the past, and also commented on the similarities between BMUBMD and Feed the Machine by RED.
It sounds like, "ruk, ruk, ruk, ruk, ruk." Instead of the more pleasing kick drum sound of, "gzarruk, gzarruk, gzarruk, gzarruk."

Offline KevShmev

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Re: ADTOE and I&W
« Reply #56 on: July 28, 2018, 06:26:28 PM »
The one thing I haven't seen mentioned in this latest thread that I *believe* I remember from when it was originally discussed - didn't Portnoy himself come out and say something along these lines after it was released?  Or am I imagining that?

He did. IIRC, he had two posts, one echoing Thiago's opinions saying he thought the same thing and that this was them trying to rewrite the past, and also commented on the similarities between BMUBMD and Feed the Machine by RED.

Which was hilarious because I remember him being oh so touchy numerous times during his tenure when fans made the "this new DT song sounds like x-song" connection, but the second the band did it when he wasn't in the band anymore, it was suddenly an issue.  He was pretty bitter at the time, though, and I am sure he hated seeing the first DT album without him getting such positive reaction from the collective fanbase, so him lashing out in some fashion was almost to be expected, given his personality.

Offline Sebastián Pratesi

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Re: ADTOE and I&W
« Reply #57 on: July 30, 2018, 10:34:17 AM »
But to this day, I still don't know how to connect the remaining songs.

So, what do you guys see?
Someone has mentioned that "This is the life" mirrors "Another day" in some ways:
  • Their intros feature accoustic arpeggios followed by a guitar solo (which starts at the same moment as the drums/bass.)
  • The first notes in the solo of "AD" are B, A#, G#, D# - the III, II, I and V degrees of the song's key. The first ones in "TITL" are B, F#, E and G - the V, II, I and III degrees of the song's key. (That might be a stretch, but the degrees certainly are the same - almost inverted.)
  • The verses feature piano prominently, no drums, and some "delicate" guitar. (They are not harmonics, but I don't know the name of that guitar effect.)
  • Towards the end, the last chorus appears in it's heaviest version.
  • After the last chorus, you hear the intro's arpeggios once again backing a solo that's twice as many bars as the one in the intro.
Of course, there are obvious differences between the songs - they are not the same keys and time signatures, and they don't end on the same degree ("TITL" ends in the tonic, whereas "AD" doesn't.) But maybe that's another pair you can try connecting.

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Re: ADTOE and I&W
« Reply #58 on: July 30, 2018, 10:38:14 AM »
Nobody ever said they ripped off I&W when The Count of Tuscany's intro is literally just a different sequence of the notes from Another Day's intro... just my funny little observation
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Offline Sebastián Pratesi

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Re: ADTOE and I&W
« Reply #59 on: July 30, 2018, 11:17:10 AM »
Nobody ever said they ripped off I&W when The Count of Tuscany's intro is literally just a different sequence of the notes from Another Day's intro... just my funny little observation
I just mentioned all of that because Bosk was wondering about what other connections he could make between Images & Words and A dramatic turn of events.

The intro in "The Count of Tuscany" is indeed much more similar to "Another day" than the one in "This is the life". (In fact, that's how it was easier for me to learn to play "AD"!) Apart from that (and the fact that they share keys), I don't think any of the other similarities apply for "TCOT".

Besides, "TCOT" is almost 3 times as long as "TITL", and quickly begins changing styles (including a long, fast heavy-metal section, and an atmospheric instrumental a couple of minutes long); whereas "AD" is more or less a short ballad - just like "TITL".

Now that you brought it up: that intro in "TCOT" is so cool! It's one of the first things I play when I feel like practicing a bit. Still to this day, I hear it as 3/4, so I love it that you also get to hear it in 6/8 during the outro.

Offline ToT-147

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Re: ADTOE and I&W
« Reply #60 on: August 01, 2018, 03:22:22 PM »
ADToE is just as creative as any other DT album.. As many have said, is not the first time they do certain song with similar structure than other song in their catalogue; the fact that there are 5/6 of those certain songs in the same album is just a curiosity the album has, but from there to saying things like that Thiago dude was saying, there's a world of distance.. Even more if we realize we're talking of probably one of the bands that has more different song structure in the history of music, and he and his followers should know this very well..


I don't really see or think about it aside from making jokes like "oh uagm and lost not forgotten have jp playing octaves that move up and down. same song confirmed" (Which, to be clear, is not to poke fun at anyone in particular, it's to poke fun at people who take the perceived similarities too far)

They're not "perceived", but pretty obvious similarities and, in any case, the ones that took it too far were the band themselves, and not us who are merely describing what they did.. Is very clear what they did (although not that clear why they did it), and also is very obvious, as most here in this thread have already pointed out, that it's not just one random similarity that these songs have in common, but many and they're quite evident..


From what I've heard and seen, most of the similarities between the songs are superficial. PMU and OtBoA are probably the best case, but even then the songs are so different in their own rights that the comparison falls apart when you look closer. How they use meters is different, the overall mood is somewhat different, the melodies are different, the arrangements are different, and so on. Do the two albums have some stuff in common? Yes. Is ADToE deliberately based on I&W? Probably not. The albums are too unique to really say that there's any recycling.

I agree but also disagree.. Of course you cannot make an album consisting of five or six songs that, besides of having very similar and obvious structures than other five or six songs off another previous album of yours, also repeats their respective melodies, scales, exact arrengements, etc.. That would be even more absurd than MirrorMask's joking example about them excluding the LNF's intro just because UAG doesn't have one.. So, the fact that they haven't done an even greater ridicule like that doesn't mean that there are no obvious structural coincidences in the two sets of songs.. Better than that, just do an acoustic (or whatever) version of that older album and that's it.. How would ever an artist make that other thing?..


If someone wants to break down and analyze music that way, that's great if it makes you happy. But I don't think that is really how art is meant to be experienced.

Nah, at least *I* (and I see it's the case of most here) have never let this thing influence my experience while listening to any of the two albums.. I didn't analyze the similarities every time I was actually listening to the songs; after a while you already know how they are, and can just imaginarily note the similar structures.. But even if you need to listen to the songs to do that, then that's not an artistic experience at all; is just a different kind of experience..
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Offline Drinktheater

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Re: ADTOE and I&W
« Reply #61 on: August 04, 2018, 08:24:09 AM »
I hesitate to bring up Star Wars because it inevitably results in a horror show, but ADTOE feels like the Force Awakens of Dream Theater albums. Just like Force Awakens references A New Hope, ADTOE references I&W. The references are numerous enough that I would forgive one for saying "remake", but I personally think the two have their own distinct feels.

I would be interested to know if DT specifically decided to reference I&W, or if it just kind of happened organically.

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Offline noxon

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Re: ADTOE and I&W
« Reply #62 on: August 04, 2018, 08:31:11 AM »
Judging by certain fans reactions : the astonishing. Which makes the s/t rogue one .

Offline Drinktheater

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Re: ADTOE and I&W
« Reply #63 on: August 04, 2018, 08:53:57 AM »
Judging by certain fans reactions : the astonishing. Which makes the s/t rogue one .

What is s/t?
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Offline Sebastián Pratesi

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Re: ADTOE and I&W
« Reply #64 on: August 04, 2018, 10:31:02 AM »
Judging by certain fans reactions : the astonishing. Which makes the s/t rogue one .

What is s/t?
He was probably referring to the self-titled album. (aka DT12)

Offline noxon

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Re: ADTOE and I&W
« Reply #65 on: August 04, 2018, 10:38:43 AM »

Offline Drinktheater

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Re: ADTOE and I&W
« Reply #66 on: August 04, 2018, 12:04:29 PM »
It’s a common acronym: https://www.acronymfinder.com/Self_Titled-(also-seen-as-ST)-(S%2FT).html
Gotcha thats what I thought and thanks for that link. Hah, Me and my friends and wife call that The "illumination Theory album"!
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Offline gzarruk

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Re: ADTOE and I&W
« Reply #67 on: August 04, 2018, 12:12:45 PM »
It’s a common acronym: https://www.acronymfinder.com/Self_Titled-(also-seen-as-ST)-(S%2FT).html
Gotcha thats what I thought and thanks for that link. Hah, Me and my friends and wife call that The "illumination Theory album"!

Well, IIRC, JP said once that Illumination Theory was going to be the album title untill they decided to make it a self-titled.
It sounds like, "ruk, ruk, ruk, ruk, ruk." Instead of the more pleasing kick drum sound of, "gzarruk, gzarruk, gzarruk, gzarruk."

Offline Drinktheater

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Re: ADTOE and I&W
« Reply #68 on: August 04, 2018, 12:33:00 PM »
It’s a common acronym: https://www.acronymfinder.com/Self_Titled-(also-seen-as-ST)-(S%2FT).html
Gotcha thats what I thought and thanks for that link. Hah, Me and my friends and wife call that The "illumination Theory album"!

Well, IIRC, JP said once that Illumination Theory was going to be the album title untill they decided to make it a self-titled.
oh cool!

Now I am going to continue to call it Illumination Album among my peers!

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