Author Topic: Civilian views of the military and their actions  (Read 847 times)

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Offline Chino

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Re: Civilian views of the military and their actions
« Reply #35 on: July 10, 2018, 12:21:01 PM »
Well, I can't exactly wait another 20 years to enlist when/if the military suddenly has to defend an attack on American soil, so I'd like to get in, do my time, and get out knowing that I did my job and helped serve a country I have pride in. Honestly it's kind of sad that we're at a point people have to say, "I don't have American flags in my house" just to avoid the possibility of being called a nationalist or something. When I was a kid I wore a t-shirt with an American flag on it and someone at the store said something to the effect of "hell yeah brother" and it made me so uncomfortable I never wore it again, but I don't think having pride in your country should be viewed as an inherently bad thing... as long as you're not rubbing it in people's faces and stuff

Having pride in your country is one thing. I don't really get it, but it is what it is. I didn't chose where I was born. I just happened to win the dick lottery and was born into an white middle class family in CT. I could have just as easily been born in the middle east and had been taught to hate this country. Am I happy and grateful I'm in America? You bet. I'm just not quite sure that I can say I'm "proud". I'm proud of the fact that I overcame a dark period in college and ended up buying a house at a relatively young age. I'm proud that I managed to lose 70 pounds. I can't say that I'm proud to have come out of the dick that I did. I had no contribution to that at all.

My problem with nationalism thing is it seems a little archaic in today's world. Trump says "America first", but it's no secret that to millions of people in this country that means "America only". That to me is foolish, small minded, and something I am certainly not proud of. America has had the good fortune of only having to share borders with two allies, and had massive oceans between us and the rest of the world. Again, another thing to be grateful for, not proud. Our geographic location was our greatest attribute for the longest time, not our military. 

I'm thankful for the military and those willing to sacrifice themselves, just as I am fire fighters and police officers. All are on the same level in my eyes though. To be completely honest, I know police officers in both Hartford and New Haven who are probably more likely to get killed serving the people of this country than any national guard or air force personnel I know. I'm not saying those jobs aren't important, but the thing I always see credited to the military is that it's made up of those who are are not afraid to die for their country (a land mass' people). Those in the military are not the only ones who do that. 

Offline Stadler

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Re: Civilian views of the military and their actions
« Reply #36 on: July 10, 2018, 01:37:26 PM »
To the extent that a military is necessary to defend our way of life there will always be people willing to enlist. Pearl Harbour and 911 are proof of that. What we're seeing now is a military necessary to protect our global status, and that is not the same thing. It's not necessary and it's morally questionable.

What about where they overlap? 

I get what you're saying about our involvement in, for example, much of the Middle East.  I don't at all say that about China.  I am far from a xenophobe - I have an MBA in international business and I work for a company owned 10% by the country of France - but I fear China in a way that Hillary would love us to fear Russia (for all the wrong reasons I might add).  I do not at all believe that China wants us as partners, or fellow global citizens.  They would love to rename Connecticut to, ... uh, whatever "long tidal river" is in Chinese.  A strong military is a necessary component in preventing that from happening sooner rather than later (if at all).   

I agree with what Chino said, albeit not as cynically.   I'm not proud of being born here in and of itself, but I am proud of whatever my contributions are to the community beyond "Stadler" and "Stadler's immediate family".  I'm proud of the community I am part of.   I don't have the sort of heritage legacy that the Irish have, for example, or the Italians.   There isn't a "St. Stanislav Day" where we drink to oblivion, or TV shows about Polish crime families a la The Sopranos.  I'm sure we're now talking about something different, but I'm loathe to mock whatever it is that gives a sense of community.   It's not an unpleasant feeling.   

Offline El Barto

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Re: Civilian views of the military and their actions
« Reply #37 on: July 10, 2018, 03:28:02 PM »
To the extent that a military is necessary to defend our way of life there will always be people willing to enlist. Pearl Harbour and 911 are proof of that. What we're seeing now is a military necessary to protect our global status, and that is not the same thing. It's not necessary and it's morally questionable.

What about where they overlap? 

I get what you're saying about our involvement in, for example, much of the Middle East.  I don't at all say that about China.  I am far from a xenophobe - I have an MBA in international business and I work for a company owned 10% by the country of France - but I fear China in a way that Hillary would love us to fear Russia (for all the wrong reasons I might add).  I do not at all believe that China wants us as partners, or fellow global citizens.  They would love to rename Connecticut to, ... uh, whatever "long tidal river" is in Chinese.  A strong military is a necessary component in preventing that from happening sooner rather than later (if at all).   
 
Well, I don't have a masters degree in anything, but it does seem to me that the Chinese would be far more interested in buying or acquiring Zhǎng cho h than taking it by force. Our war with China is financial, diplomatic, and martial by proxy. If nothing else our nuclear deterrent maintains that balance.

But, like I said, I understand the need for a strong military. I'm neither naive nor a pacifist. When i say "to the extent that it's necessary" I'm thinking in terms of numbers, not necessity. We'll always have enough volunteers to maintain a strong deterrent force, and should the need come we'll have more than enough to respond to direct action. That's not the current nature of our military, though. Perhaps if we had fewer volunteers while we're engaged in bullshit wars we'd be less inclined to make them up.

Also, China can ramp up their armed forces to upwards of 600,000,000 people. That's five times our potential enlistment. Size isn't what could keep them in check militarily.

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I agree with what Chino said, albeit not as cynically.   I'm not proud of being born here in and of itself, but I am proud of whatever my contributions are to the community beyond "Stadler" and "Stadler's immediate family".  I'm proud of the community I am part of.   I don't have the sort of heritage legacy that the Irish have, for example, or the Italians.   There isn't a "St. Stanislav Day" where we drink to oblivion, or TV shows about Polish crime families a la The Sopranos.  I'm sure we're now talking about something different, but I'm loathe to mock whatever it is that gives a sense of community.   It's not an unpleasant feeling. 

A sense of community is awesome, but I wouldn't base it on abstract or arbitrary things.  Particularly something as divisive as socio-economics. Frankly, on that level I have far more in common with Chad's neighbors than I do with my own. I certainly didn't feel any pride or community with the people watching fireworks the other night, and Lee Greenwood can go fuck himself. You know what gives me that sort of warm fuzzy? Being in a crowd of 15k fellow maiden fans when Bruce explains why we're all family, or posing for selfies with Mexicans who appreciated my presence at their house to see Metallica. That's something real, and it's something based on sentiment I can relate to, rather than the senseless bullshit and stupidity foisted upon us in the name of patriotism.
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Offline Stadler

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Re: Civilian views of the military and their actions
« Reply #38 on: July 10, 2018, 03:59:28 PM »
To the extent that a military is necessary to defend our way of life there will always be people willing to enlist. Pearl Harbour and 911 are proof of that. What we're seeing now is a military necessary to protect our global status, and that is not the same thing. It's not necessary and it's morally questionable.

What about where they overlap? 

I get what you're saying about our involvement in, for example, much of the Middle East.  I don't at all say that about China.  I am far from a xenophobe - I have an MBA in international business and I work for a company owned 10% by the country of France - but I fear China in a way that Hillary would love us to fear Russia (for all the wrong reasons I might add).  I do not at all believe that China wants us as partners, or fellow global citizens.  They would love to rename Connecticut to, ... uh, whatever "long tidal river" is in Chinese.  A strong military is a necessary component in preventing that from happening sooner rather than later (if at all).   
 
Well, I don't have a masters degree in anything, but it does seem to me that the Chinese would be far more interested in buying or acquiring Zhǎng cho h than taking it by force. Our war with China is financial, diplomatic, and martial by proxy. If nothing else our nuclear deterrent maintains that balance.

But, like I said, I understand the need for a strong military. I'm neither naive nor a pacifist. When i say "to the extent that it's necessary" I'm thinking in terms of numbers, not necessity. We'll always have enough volunteers to maintain a strong deterrent force, and should the need come we'll have more than enough to respond to direct action. That's not the current nature of our military, though. Perhaps if we had fewer volunteers while we're engaged in bullshit wars we'd be less inclined to make them up.

Also, China can ramp up their armed forces to upwards of 600,000,000 people. That's five times our potential enlistment. Size isn't what could keep them in check militarily.

Fair points, and at least with regards to their access to 600,000,000 people, a point I agree with 100%.   And I'm sorry, I didn't mean the "MBA" thing to sound dickish; I just meant it to say that I view the world as one big market, not 232 countries (or however many there are at this moment in time). 

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I agree with what Chino said, albeit not as cynically.   I'm not proud of being born here in and of itself, but I am proud of whatever my contributions are to the community beyond "Stadler" and "Stadler's immediate family".  I'm proud of the community I am part of.   I don't have the sort of heritage legacy that the Irish have, for example, or the Italians.   There isn't a "St. Stanislav Day" where we drink to oblivion, or TV shows about Polish crime families a la The Sopranos.  I'm sure we're now talking about something different, but I'm loathe to mock whatever it is that gives a sense of community.   It's not an unpleasant feeling. 

A sense of community is awesome, but I wouldn't base it on abstract or arbitrary things.  Particularly something as divisive as socio-economics. Frankly, on that level I have far more in common with Chad's neighbors than I do with my own. I certainly didn't feel any pride or community with the people watching fireworks the other night, and Lee Greenwood can go fuck himself. You know what gives me that sort of warm fuzzy? Being in a crowd of 15k fellow maiden fans when Bruce explains why we're all family, or posing for selfies with Mexicans who appreciated my presence at their house to see Metallica. That's something real, and it's something based on sentiment I can relate to, rather than the senseless bullshit and stupidity foisted upon us in the name of patriotism.

And you and I are in full agreement. I think we're both alike in that way; I go to a lot of shows (as do you) and more than half of them I go by myself because I'll either know someone there, or fuck it, I'll make a new friend, because I'd rather be at a Maiden show with someone that knows every song like I do, and is jazzed when Bruce does a running 25 foot broad jump to make it to the mic in time to hit the third verse after the guitar solo, than someone who is just taking one for the team.  I'm just trying to see it from the side of the person that doesn't know Adrian Smith from Adrian Balboa.  I will also say that some of my perspective is generational; the Fourth of July was a big holiday in my family.  We would go to the farm, burn hot dogs for the afternoon, play volleyball, the adults would drink my uncle's "wine", and someone would try not to blow off any fingers once it got dark.  There was no pride there, though, only a sort of gratefulness.   

Offline Chino

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Re: Civilian views of the military and their actions
« Reply #39 on: July 10, 2018, 04:45:17 PM »
I'd just to say that I feel the pride in the community, but on a larger scale. I really don't care what I contribute to America. If I make it better, cool. I want my actions to be for all of humanity and the descendants of the 7,000,000,000 people on this Earth, even the assholes. I wouldn't support anything in the name of America if it means fucking over humans elsewhere. I was listening to NPR this morning. Did you know CT on its own throws away over a billion plastic bags a year? Imagine what the country as a whole does. Me choosing to use reusable bags rather than plastic ones benefits people all over the world. Not just Americans.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2018, 03:41:44 AM by Chino »

Offline Stadler

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Re: Civilian views of the military and their actions
« Reply #40 on: July 10, 2018, 08:16:07 PM »
I can't argue that. 

Offline bosk1

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Re: Civilian views of the military and their actions
« Reply #41 on: July 11, 2018, 08:57:32 AM »
You know what gives me that sort of warm fuzzy? Being in a crowd of 15k fellow maiden fans when Bruce explains why we're all family, or posing for selfies with Mexicans who appreciated my presence at their house to see Metallica. That's something real, and it's something based on sentiment I can relate to, rather than the senseless bullshit and stupidity foisted upon us in the name of patriotism.

I'm not trying to discount that or argue against it.  But let me give you the flip side.  When I hear Bruce (or whoever) giving his monologue about how all Maiden fans are "blood brothers," I internally roll my eyes and have an internal monologue more along the lines of, "So...we're 'family' just because we happen to like the same kind of music?  Sorry, but 'family' goes far, FAR beyond that.  And while you seem to be assuming that you and I, and everybody else in this stadium/watching this DVD shares the same social values as you, that probably couldn't be farther from the truth.  I like your music.  But I suspect that when it comes to a good number of issues that I hold dear, you wouldn't be so quick to call me 'family' if we sat down and talked them through.  So as much as I admire you as a musician and a person, Sir Bruce, I find your monologue trite and misguided." 

Unity and sense of community are wonderful.  And I am thankful to share a sense of community and unity based on music or anything else.  But at the end of the day, let's be real--community and unity based solely on shared taste in entertainment is pretty shallow.

I'd just to say that I feel the pride in the community, but on a larger scale. I really don't care what I contribute to America. If I make it better, cool. I want my actions to be for all of humanity and the descendants of the 7,000,000,000 people on this Earth, even the assholes. I wouldn't support anything in the name of America if it means fucking over humans elsewhere. I was listening to NPR this morning. Did you know CT on its own throws away over a billion plastic bags a year? Imagine what the country as a whole does. Me choosing to use reusable bags rather than plastic ones benefits people all over the world. Not just Americans.

That's all fine, but although this likely isn't your intent, you make it sound as if sense of community in being an American and sense of community in being a world citizen are mutually exclusive, when they aren't.  And just because someone else may overtly present a greater outward sense of U.S. patriotism and may have different opinions than you on what makes for a "better" or more productive world citizen does not necessarily make them a "worse" world citizen than you.
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Offline El Barto

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Re: Civilian views of the military and their actions
« Reply #42 on: July 11, 2018, 09:48:05 AM »
You know what gives me that sort of warm fuzzy? Being in a crowd of 15k fellow maiden fans when Bruce explains why we're all family, or posing for selfies with Mexicans who appreciated my presence at their house to see Metallica. That's something real, and it's something based on sentiment I can relate to, rather than the senseless bullshit and stupidity foisted upon us in the name of patriotism.

I'm not trying to discount that or argue against it.  But let me give you the flip side.  When I hear Bruce (or whoever) giving his monologue about how all Maiden fans are "blood brothers," I internally roll my eyes and have an internal monologue more along the lines of, "So...we're 'family' just because we happen to like the same kind of music?  Sorry, but 'family' goes far, FAR beyond that.  And while you seem to be assuming that you and I, and everybody else in this stadium/watching this DVD shares the same social values as you, that probably couldn't be farther from the truth.  I like your music.  But I suspect that when it comes to a good number of issues that I hold dear, you wouldn't be so quick to call me 'family' if we sat down and talked them through.  So as much as I admire you as a musician and a person, Sir Bruce, I find your monologue trite and misguided." 

Unity and sense of community are wonderful.  And I am thankful to share a sense of community and unity based on music or anything else.  But at the end of the day, let's be real--community and unity based solely on shared taste in entertainment is pretty shallow.
More shallow than community based on geography? Or a handful of social values that we agree with, countered by the same number of values we despise? Here's what I can tell you. Among those 15k Maiden fans, or 55k Mexican Metallica fans, I feel like every one of them would have my back should it be necessary. Would you assume that about 15k generic Americans? I sure wouldn't. A significant percentage of them would rather whip out their phone and video you getting trampled under a mosh pit than actually pull you out. The smaller subset of people at a concert are going to make sure you're alright.

I think much of it is a matter of scale. It seems there are about 500k people in Sacramento. How many of those people are likely to be "your kind of people?" Or mine? Of those probably only 10k or so are likely to attend a Maiden show. Isn't it more likely that I'd get along with them than a random grouping of Sacromenions? Aren't you more likely to get along better at a conference of 500 conservative attorneys than with a random selection of people from all walks, including some Maiden fans and some Snoop Dog fans?
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Offline JayOctavarium

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Re: Civilian views of the military and their actions
« Reply #43 on: July 11, 2018, 09:50:19 AM »
So bosk doesn't consider us family. I am heartbroken.




Also on topic: I agree with El Barto about the maiden thing. I get more sense of community in a situation like that than I do with people who have dumbed down July 4th to a holiday where you blow shit up just because you can.

I just don't understand what they were trying to achieve with any part of the song, either individually or as a whole. You know what? It's the Platypus of Dream Theater songs. That bill doesn't go with that tail, or that strange little furry body, or those webbed feet, and oh god why does it have venomous spurs!? And then you find out it lays eggs too. The difference is that the Platypus is somehow functional despite being a crazy mishmash or leftover animal pieces

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Offline bosk1

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Re: Civilian views of the military and their actions
« Reply #44 on: July 11, 2018, 09:59:01 AM »
More shallow than community based on geography? Or a handful of social values that we agree with, countered by the same number of values we despise?

If it were truly only a matter of, say, "geography," then no.  But I think your descriptions trivialize what truly binds people together as "communities" and thus misses the point.  So, yes, I do consider having similar tastes in entertainment alone to be very shallow as a defining characteristic of "community." 
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Offline El Barto

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Re: Civilian views of the military and their actions
« Reply #45 on: July 11, 2018, 10:20:05 AM »
More shallow than community based on geography? Or a handful of social values that we agree with, countered by the same number of values we despise?

If it were truly only a matter of, say, "geography," then no.  But I think your descriptions trivialize what truly binds people together as "communities" and thus misses the point.  So, yes, I do consider having similar tastes in entertainment alone to be very shallow as a defining characteristic of "community."
And this reply skips the various examples and explanations I gave as to why it's not simply taste in music, and why they serve to bind people together. If I did miss the point I'd love to know what binds us together with regards to "country" and patriotism, which is the focus of our current discussion in this thread. I've made clear that this is something I don't understand and would like to. Simply pointing out that I don't get it doesn't help much.
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Offline Cool Chris

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Re: Civilian views of the military and their actions
« Reply #46 on: July 11, 2018, 10:34:38 AM »
This is a great discussion. I do not have much to add, except that I don't feel like July 4th is "just a reason for people to blow shit up." It doesn't have to be RAH RAH AMERICA YEAH! either. But several families in my neighborhood got together that day. Sure we blew some shit up, but there was a greater sense of neighborhood-ness to it. Our kids played together, we shared some adult beverages and some laughs, and while to Barto's point, if some Seattle junkies assaulted me for their heroin money I don't know if any of them would have my back, I still like to think we share more similarities than differences, and are happy enough to consider themselves Americans just trying to enjoy life, support their families, and foster some sense of community.
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Offline bosk1

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Re: Civilian views of the military and their actions
« Reply #47 on: July 11, 2018, 10:40:43 AM »
More shallow than community based on geography? Or a handful of social values that we agree with, countered by the same number of values we despise?

If it were truly only a matter of, say, "geography," then no.  But I think your descriptions trivialize what truly binds people together as "communities" and thus misses the point.  So, yes, I do consider having similar tastes in entertainment alone to be very shallow as a defining characteristic of "community."
And this reply skips the various examples and explanations I gave as to why it's not simply taste in music, and why they serve to bind people together. If I did miss the point I'd love to know what binds us together with regards to "country" and patriotism, which is the focus of our current discussion in this thread. I've made clear that this is something I don't understand and would like to. Simply pointing out that I don't get it doesn't help much.

What I am saying in both contexts ("music" and "country"--and this is one of the few contexts where I do not have a subconscious adverse reaction to using those two terms in the same sentence) is that what binds us together is often hard to define and is much more than those shallow, surface aspects that people tend to focus on when trivializing them.   That's why I didn't go into more specifics.  It isn't that "well, I just get it and you don't, so never mind."  It's that the answer is incredibly varied, and complex, and each aspect of it carries different meaning for different people. 

When I presented the opposite view on music, for example, I'm not trying to trivialize it in terms of how it impacts you.  I'm saying that there is an opposing view as well.  And that is, for me, the things you mentioned don't really resonate, and it does just boil down to "we have similar tastes in music."  You, on the other hand, are going to get much more emotional capital (for lack of a better term) from the things you mentioned.  To me, neither is wrong.  But I find it kind of pointless into trying to talk you into seeing value in where I most find my sense of community.  Again, my point is just in showing that there are very different views from yours that are equally valid because it is incredibly subjective.
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Offline El Barto

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Re: Civilian views of the military and their actions
« Reply #48 on: July 11, 2018, 10:50:03 AM »
This is a great discussion. I do not have much to add, except that I don't feel like July 4th is "just a reason for people to blow shit up." It doesn't have to be RAH RAH AMERICA YEAH! either. But several families in my neighborhood got together that day. Sure we blew some shit up, but there was a greater sense of neighborhood-ness to it. Our kids played together, we shared some adult beverages and some laughs, and while to Barto's point, if some Seattle junkies assaulted me for their heroin money I don't know if any of them would have my back, I still like to think we share more similarities than differences, and are happy enough to consider themselves Americans just trying to enjoy life, support their families, and foster some sense of community.
Out of curiosity, was there anything intrinsically "it's America's birthday" about y'alls celebration? I guess I have to wonder if the holiday didn't simply serve as a reason to get together and spend an enjoyable night as a small community. Sort of like Christmas. You celebrated as a group of homeowners on the block. I'm not sure you celebrated as Americans, despite probably all qualifying.

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I still like to think we share more similarities than differences, and are happy enough to consider themselves Americans just trying to enjoy life, support their families, and foster some sense of community.
Since this probably happens in every country on Earth, why not just "people" trying to enjoy life, etc?
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Offline El Barto

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Re: Civilian views of the military and their actions
« Reply #49 on: July 11, 2018, 10:55:40 AM »
More shallow than community based on geography? Or a handful of social values that we agree with, countered by the same number of values we despise?

If it were truly only a matter of, say, "geography," then no.  But I think your descriptions trivialize what truly binds people together as "communities" and thus misses the point.  So, yes, I do consider having similar tastes in entertainment alone to be very shallow as a defining characteristic of "community."
And this reply skips the various examples and explanations I gave as to why it's not simply taste in music, and why they serve to bind people together. If I did miss the point I'd love to know what binds us together with regards to "country" and patriotism, which is the focus of our current discussion in this thread. I've made clear that this is something I don't understand and would like to. Simply pointing out that I don't get it doesn't help much.

What I am saying in both contexts ("music" and "country"--and this is one of the few contexts where I do not have a subconscious adverse reaction to using those two terms in the same sentence) is that what binds us together is often hard to define and is much more than those shallow, surface aspects that people tend to focus on when trivializing them.   That's why I didn't go into more specifics.  It isn't that "well, I just get it and you don't, so never mind."  It's that the answer is incredibly varied, and complex, and each aspect of it carries different meaning for different people. 

When I presented the opposite view on music, for example, I'm not trying to trivialize it in terms of how it impacts you.  I'm saying that there is an opposing view as well.  And that is, for me, the things you mentioned don't really resonate, and it does just boil down to "we have similar tastes in music."  You, on the other hand, are going to get much more emotional capital (for lack of a better term) from the things you mentioned.  To me, neither is wrong.  But I find it kind of pointless into trying to talk you into seeing value in where I most find my sense of community.  Again, my point is just in showing that there are very different views from yours that are equally valid because it is incredibly subjective.
Fair enough. While I was typing my earlier response to you I had to rework it because it occurred to me that you don't place the same value on the concert experience as I do. I've been going to rock shows since 83, and even though I think they're nowhere near as cool as they once were, I still gain more from the experience than simply the music. People sharing that experience is meaningful to me. So yeah, I guess this is all pretty subjective.

I'd still like to better understand the "country" perspective, though. Because it's very likely the same, if less profound, in every other country it just seems arbitrary to me.
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Offline bosk1

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Re: Civilian views of the military and their actions
« Reply #50 on: July 11, 2018, 10:58:30 AM »
I'd still like to better understand the "country" perspective, though. Because it's very likely the same, if less profound, in every other country it just seems arbitrary to me.

Granted.  But by the same token, I wouldn't begrudge a bunch of Saudis, or Brits, or Indians, or Chinese, or Nambians from getting together and celebrating their own belief that they lived in the greatest country on earth either.  If they feel that way and can celebrate and bond over that, more power to 'em.

I guess to try to demystify and answer your question a bit, I think if oftentimes comes down to shared culture.  In the U.S., I find there to be much more of a regional identity than a national one, but it just often finds itself articulated as "American," whether it is or not.  In the South, "Yay, I'm an American!" is often a proxy for "we love to get together for potlucks, listen to country music [ugh! that dastardly juxtaposition of those two words I was referring to earlier...], talk about huntin' & fishin', Friday's night's high school football game, and goin' to church."  In the Northeast, it might be "Yay, I'm an American!" being a proxy for "we love to talk about our Ivy League schools and why the one you went to is inferior to mine, muse over politics and the latest Supreme Court appointments, and bag on the guys who live in the city across the bridge."  It's whatever cultural aspects we hold dear.  And there definitely ARE plenty that we share as citizens of this big, diverse country.  So while I'm not really the flag waving type, I certainly get it.  But it's different to different people.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2018, 11:12:08 AM by bosk1 »
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Offline Cool Chris

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Re: Civilian views of the military and their actions
« Reply #51 on: July 11, 2018, 11:08:56 AM »
Out of curiosity, was there anything intrinsically "it's America's birthday" about y'alls celebration?
[/quote]

Not at all. We explained to my 7 year old daughter as to why it was a holiday, and she drew a poster wishing the USA a Happy Birthday, but we didn't push any AMERICA IS THE BEST narrative on her. Yes the day was a reason for us to gather but I don't see any problem with that. We are having a neighborhood BBQ on an arbitrary day next weekend, so we do not necessarily need a national holiday to meet. So fair point.

Yes your second point is correct. I thought "American" in my head because I was thinking how many of my neighbors are not native born, yet we were all together without anyone caring who was from where, hanging out together despite the fact that we may actually have less in common than we do have in common. Which is pretty cool.
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Re: Civilian views of the military and their actions
« Reply #52 on: July 11, 2018, 11:55:41 AM »
Not at all. We explained to my 7 year old daughter as to why it was a holiday, and she drew a poster wishing the USA a Happy Birthday, but we didn't push any AMERICA IS THE BEST narrative on her. Yes the day was a reason for us to gather but I don't see any problem with that. We are having a neighborhood BBQ on an arbitrary day next weekend, so we do not necessarily need a national holiday to meet. So fair point.
Nor do I. Anytime people want to get together and be nice to each other I approve whole-heartedly. I dig Christmas quite a bit, despite its being linked to Christians and senseless consumerism.

Quote
Yes your second point is correct. I thought "American" in my head because I was thinking how many of my neighbors are not native born, yet we were all together without anyone caring who was from where, hanging out together despite the fact that we may actually have less in common than we do have in common. Which is pretty cool.
I agree. Despite my efforts to the contrary, where I wound up watching fireworks for every one God-fearing, patriotic, white American there were two Arabs, a Mexican, and two Asians. I found their joyfulness far more meaningful.
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Online Kattelox

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Re: Civilian views of the military and their actions
« Reply #53 on: July 11, 2018, 12:10:47 PM »
I didn't watch the fireworks because I hate America.

Actually it's because my dumbass backwoods town decided to have them on the 3rd for some reason unbeknownst to pretty much everyone, and I don't care about fireworks.

This ongoing discussion has made me wonder what 'communities' develop in the armed forces, and just how many people who join are the gung-ho "GO MERICA" type, whether they express it or not.
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Re: Civilian views of the military and their actions
« Reply #54 on: July 12, 2018, 07:53:46 AM »
In my experience, the "communities" developed by and between people who serve are strong.   My uncle (another uncle; I didn't mention him previously) is 86, 87, and he still goes - health willing - to reunions of his Navy shipmates.   My son's girlfriend has a group of fellow WAGs that she talks to daily, or close enough.   My daughters' god parents (I did mention them above) were in the AF with my ex-wife and they are firm friends to this day.   

It has, in my experience, little to do with "Murica!" than it does shared experience, and shared hardship conquered.