Queensryche: disappointment, great band with some low points, or something else?

[bosk1]

First off, this thread is about the official band that started with the EP, released subsequent albums with Geoff Tate through Dedicated 2 Chaos, and then released two albums with Todd LaTorre (the self titled and Condition Human).  It is NOT meant to take into account any of the Geoff Tate solo work, including that released under the "Operation Mindcrime" name or his Frequency Unknown album that was released under the "Queensryche" name without the permission of the band.

The question is:  forgetting about any of the drama or the disappointments through the years, looking at their catalog as a whole, and considering STRICTLY IN TERMS OF GIVING YOU MUSIC THAT YOU ENJOY, how would you rate this band?

At this point in history, I am curious to know how people feel about the band's entire legacy.  And I am curious because, for many fans, it is a difficult question to answer. 

For me, it is hard to not classify them as a big disappointment at this stage in their careers for reasons that have been discussed at length in the Queensryche thread (https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=263.0) and elsewhere.  That is especially true since they were my favorite band from about 1991 to 1999, fell VERY far from that pedestal, culminating in the years of the Cabaret Tour and D2C.  We got a new hope with the TLT era of the band, only to see the band squander opportunity after opportunity and look like it is on the verge of folding or, at the very least, fading into being an obscure nostalgia act.

But after a bit of thought, I have a slightly different take when looking strictly at their musical legacy as a whole.  Despite some missteps here and there, we got an EP and six REALLY solid albums up through HITNF.  With the exception of a few songs here and there, I thoroughly enjoy those albums from start to finish and feel that there are VERY few bands that have 6+ album runs that can touch that run.  We also have the thoroughly enjoyable Operation Livecrime live set from that era, as well as the exceptional (and exceptionally rare) Live in Tokyo.  Looking at the run of the next five albums (Q2K, Tribe, Mindcrime II, American Soldier, and D2C), the band was VERY hit and miss.  I can't say I have a great fondness for ANY of those, except maybe American Soldier, which has great songs, but is deeply flawed by Geoff's subpar vocal delivery and is soured by a sad backstory of not even really being a "Queensryche" record in anything but name.  But with the exception of D2C, all of those albums have songs that I enjoy and want to go back to from time to time.  Q2K has a very small number.  For Tribe, it is about half the album.  And for Mindcrime II and AS, I enjoy about 2/3 of those albums, respectively.  The "bonus" releases we got during that era were so-so (Take Cover, Art of Live, Mindcrime at the Moore), but I don't overly hold that against them.  Then we get to the LaTorre era, and despite the frustrations about the band themselves, the music was mostly top notch and left me very happy.

So when I take a step back and look at the strength of the band's music in the grand scheme of things and forget the drama, I come away with eight albums and an EP that I REALLY like, three albums I listen to only occasionally but have some songs that I really enjoy from time to time, and two clunkers I don't revisit.  That's a pretty satisfying record.  By that standard, I guess I have to consider the band a success STRICTLY IN TERMS OF GIVING ME MUSIC THAT I ENJOY.  And that is really the standard I am concerned with in this thread.

So considered STRICTLY IN TERMS OF GIVING ME MUSIC THAT I ENJOY, I rate them as a great band that had some definite low points.  The lows are pretty low and, along with the drama, keep me from really considering them a favorite anymore.  But they have given me a LOT of solid music that I really enjoy, and I have to give them credit for that.  How about you?

[Nick]

Something else, not me.

They are a band that had one of the most amazing starts we'll ever see. From the EP through Promised Land the band basically shat musical gold. Very few acts will come close to hitting what they did during that time frame. But starting with Hear in the Now a long string of meh albums started. Then of course starting with O:MII a bunch of really bad decisions started happening that helped chip away heavily at the band's legacy. That still doesn't take away from what they were and make them a disappointment, but rather I'm just disappointed in what they became. And after HitnF up to D2C each album had at least a few tracks I really enjoyed. Then they get rid of Tate and truly squandered momentum out of the gate. Had they release Condition Human out of the gate and really gotten behind it they would have really reestablished some legitimacy.

What is the band to me now? A good nostalgia act I'll certainly enjoy going to watch.

[bosk1]

Kudos to Nick for understanding and answering the question that was actually being asked, and thus starting off the thread in the right direction.  We actually aren't really that far apart in our general assessment, I think.  That last option is meant to let people basically answer the question on their own terms rather than adopting my classifications, but to keep the actual question in mind.  Thanks for your thoughts and for keeping it on track. 

[MirrorMask]

I'm what is probably one of many: those who are mainly Mindcrime fan, and enjoy what else there is to enjoy by association.

Mindcrime is their Jupiter to me. As Jupiter has more mass than all the other planets of the solar system, I probably love Mindcrime more than anything else they've ever done, put together. It's one of those perfect albums that you can never ever get tired of.

What came before (EP, Warning, Rage for Order which is my second favorite) and immediately after (Empire) is mostly good, not "I'm a big fan of this band and I love every song and I listen to them regularly" good (of course these are just my tastes here), but enjoyable. Already Promised Land is so-so for me (I know is a hard to get album, I'm not saying it sucks, I'm just one of those that don't get it), Hear in the Now Frontier is for me Sign of the Times and 13 other songs I never listened in ages, and from Q2K onward is a downard spiral heading for the disaster that were the last years of the Tate tenure.

For when I go to work, I make compilations of all the stuff I really like; the only compilation I ever did of Queensryche was an "early days" one, from the EP to Promised Land - it was filled to the brink with Mindcrime songs, and Promised Land had only 2. I'm not saying that the later albums suck, I know there are some good songs here and there, but go back to my initial statement - it was really more of a Mindcrime thing that a Queensryche thing.

With DT, I'm a big fan so I stick to them through thick and thin (and hey, as divisive as some albums are, can we all agree they never wrote a turd?)  - Queensyrche never managed to make me a full, unwaivering fan, so average albums and the quality tummeling to the ground album after album were enough to make me lose interest in them, and reducing them to "Oh, they made a new album, let's hear it once if I have time to see how it is", and that even stopped completely after American Soldier.

So, to sum up: I love Operation Mindcrime to death, I quite like the three albums that came before, don't mind half of Empire at all, and the rest it's just one song or there. They could have been superstars but they squandered away all their potential. They could have been what Dream Theater are now with an even broader commercial appeal than DT ever had - but they're just a nostalgia band by now, and for me they'll always be "the ones of Operation Mindcrime and a couple of albums I dig before that. Also half of the songs on Empire are kinda cool" and nothing more.

[TAC]

Bosk, I totally understand your OP, I think. After all of this time that has passed, where do they really rank for you(not you actually)?

Like most bands, they have their "classic" period. For me, the last good album they made was Empire, so from '83-'90 (seven years), they were excellent. From '90 -present (28 years), they've been passable at times, but more or less not very good. It's like they literally turned into a pumpkin.

I have no use for Promised Land and HITNF. Enough people that I respect love Promised Land, so there's that, but HITNF should've been their last album. In many ways, it was.


In the grand scheme, if you asked me in 1989, they could have been one of my all time favorite bands, but in the end, they were just another band that happened to make a couple of my favorite albums of all time.

The only list they would top would be The Band With The Most Disappointing Career list.

They are not a good band with some low points. They're actually a not so great band with a couple of high points.

[bosk1]

They are not a good band with some low points. They're actually a not so great band with a couple of high points.

Cool description.  I wish I would have included that in the poll.

[Stadler]

I'm with TAC on this one.  I think he got it right.

[Lethean]

I had to go with "something else."  I'm not even completely sure what that something else is.  Initially I might have said "disappointment," but a lot of what Bosk said makes sense, although he seems to enjoy the later albums more than I do.  I think almost everything up to and including Promised Land is great.  HITNF and Q2K are OK at best, and the rest I'm either indifferent to or dislike until Todd joined.  I feel like I should have said "great band with some low points" but couldn't quite bring myself to do so, even if I try to pretend that I don't know about the cabaret or the spitting incident, etc.  For me, I only like just over half of their albums - EP-PL yes, except I'm not as big on Empire as some so I'd say 5 1/2 albums there.  Then HITNF-Dedicated to Chaos no, so that's 6 1/2 on that side.  The Todd albums are pretty good, so then it's more than half that's either great or good.  However, it was what, over years of material I don't like?  It's not that I think every song is horrible, but I have no desire to listen to those albums and as I'm more of an album listener, I can't remember the last time I've listened to even the tracks I do like, such as Right Side of My Mind.  As I type, I'm thinking maybe I should have gone for disappointment after all.  I don't know.  It's complicated when it comes to QR.  I guess the something else vote fits because it could include being conflicted.

[romdrums]

I originally voted Great Band with Some Definite Low Points, but I wish I had chosen Something Else.

They were in my top 3 from 89-97.  Their run from the EP to Promised Land is one of the greatest album runs of all time.  For their first 15 years, they made consistently great and interesting music that was just different enough to garner both mainstream success and critical acclaim.  For me, I felt Promised Land offered a great starting point for the rest of their career.  Sure it didn't reach the commercial heights of its predecessor, but I felt if they kept moving down the road that Promised Land seemed to point them towards, it would have continued their path of making interesting and thought provoking music with lots of layers and textures.  With Hear in the Now Frontier, they seemed like they lost the plot, and abandoned a lot of the elements that made them different enough to begin with.  That signature made appearances from time to time, but until the TLT-era albums, it was largely absent.  The self-titled and Condition Human are solid records, but the drama and craft that was so present in their classic records is still largely missing.

I will add that the Promised Land show I saw is still one of the best concerts I've ever seen.

[Samsara]

Cool thread. I'm not sure I want to post some long diatribe (you're welcome, lol) explaining how I feel. So all I will say is the original lineup of Queensryche was a GREAT band, but not perfect (no band is) toward the end of its run. But to this day, the original group remains (without any doubt whatsoever) my favorite musical entity of all time for a variety of reasons, most centered on songwriting and attention to detail.

After the original band fractured, they've simply been a good band with some up and down moments, with the last two albums more in the musical direction I think most fans wanted them to return to. And the fact that a lot of people really hold their last album in such high regard is nice to see. Not the same band anymore to me though, for many, many reasons. But that original group...while not perfect, was just a really special thing that most in the industry wishes they had been. And QR managed to keep it together for 16 years. That's saying something.

So I voted someone...thing else...

[The Walrus]

Hard to say, so I'll pick an option later, but maybe not, since I haven't heard everything they've done. Public squabbles, shenanigans, and spectacles aside, I think it's hard to argue against the quality of their early works. The Warning might be a bit iffy for some, but Rage For Order, Mindcrime, and Empire make up one of the strongest three-album runs I've ever heard from a metal band. Keep in mind I never heard those until the start of 2018. 30 years later, it's still easy to see how they were ahead of a lot of their peers. Some of that stuff couldn't have come from any other group. Rage For Order makes me sweat, in a good way. And their live shows - spent a lot of time watching their live performances around the Mindcrime era and it's unbelievable how good they were. I envy people who saw them live at that time. Replicating those songs live night after night, particularly Geoff Tate's parts, is not easy, but somehow they did it. Promised Land is where I tap out; I haven't given it long enough to be truly sure how I feel about it but I don't like it nearly as much as the previous stuff. Fast forward to Condition Human which is the only other album I've heard. Very good, but it almost feels a few decades too late.

So from what I've heard: (once) a great band, but overall, from what I've read over the years about the rest of their catalogue, maybe not so much. But I'll have to hear the rest to make a real call.

[King Postwhore]

I've always looked at them as a great band that self imploded.  It wasn't one thing, it was many things that lead to where they are now. (Please read Sam's thread about every album and what went on.  It was astounding.

[TAC]

I'm not sure I want to post some long diatribe (you're welcome, lol)

 

Phew..that was a close call.

[bosk1]

Fast forward to Condition Human which is the only other album I've heard. Very good, but it almost feels a few decades too late.

I don't think there's any "almost" about it.  It WAS a few decades too late.  I mean, they still could have made a better run with that album than they did after it came out.  But still.

[Lowdz]

They started so well, as well as any band ever, but lost their way.

[Samsara]

I'm not sure I want to post some long diatribe (you're welcome, lol)

 

Phew..that was a close call.

 

You're one of the few who would actually take the time to read it. lol.  Have a good weekend bud.

[TAC]

Yes I would. Back atcha!

[Phoenix87x]

No matter how low they have been at points, that can never take away from the incredible high points they had.

[max_security]

I feel that they were a Great band that ran their course ( most say Promised Land I say MC or Empire at best ). I think back then most bands had 5-10 year vision / goals and no one thought about anything beyond that.

[pg1067]

I went with "something else."

IMO, they had a very similar trajectory to Metallica.  From the EP through O:M, they were one of the best bands going.  I'm not as much of a fan of Empire as a lot of folks, but it was still strong.  After that, however, I have virtually no interest.  There are a couple of really good songs on Promised Land ("I Am I" and "Damaged"), but most of the album is below average to crappy, and I lost interest after that.

[bl5150]

So considered STRICTLY IN TERMS OF GIVING ME MUSIC THAT I ENJOY, I rate them as a great band that had some definite low points. 

This - and I don't let the post Empire/Promised Land stuff affect my judgement of them as a great band.   In my mind the band that recorded HITNF through DTC is a different beast that I treat (probably to make me feel better) as a separate entity  .   

Very few bands managed to change with the times and stay relevant in the 90's - I could count on one hand the number of bands that I like that managed to do it well .  Many just called it a day and if QR had done the same at Promised Land they would likely be held up as an all time great by more people .    In my mind at least the fact that a band (a different band in terms of both personnel/writing) released a whole load of subpar material in the second half of their career doesn't discount their overall "greatness".   I do understand why some might though.   I apply the same to any number of my favourite bands -  DT , Van Halen, AC/DC, Ozzy, Def Leppard, Whitesnake, Metallica......

Otherwise I may not rate any bands as "favourites" or "great."

[ronnibran]

I voted "something else".  A great band with low moments is like a band that has a clunker or two in their discography.  They were my favorite band throughout high school, but ultimately, I only really love about a third of their whole discography. 

[LudwigVan]

Disappointment. Not too many bands have had a bigger fall from grace.

[ReaperKK]

I think they are a great band with the low points skewed towards the latter part of the year. I only recently got into Queensryche with Samsara's discog thread and taking the drama out of the equation (or at least trying to) listening through their discography is like hearing a band lose direction, get sloppy and lazy in real time.

I started following the thread from inception and I was blown away by how great those early albums sounded, polished in both sound and song writing. As time went on it felt like the writing and recording went from a fine tuned process to more of a "that'll do" mentally.

**Opinions started in this post are from a pretty drunk ReaperKK**

[jammindude]

As much as I love them, I have to go with something else as well. 

The heart of the band is kinda gone.    And the heart was not DeGarmo, nor was it Tate.    It was DeGarmo, Tate AND WILTON all working in tandem that made it work.    DeGarmo was the melody, Wilton was the "balls and chunk", and Tate was the weird voice of insanity. 

Once they made it big, Wilton and Tate both got sidetracked....and DeGarmo got tired of holding it together.    Then when DeGarmo left, Tate became a dictator with Wilton fading into the background with Rockenfield and Jackson.    By the time those three stood up for themselves, the whole thing was a train wreck.    The upside is that it seemed to bring Wilton/Jackson/Rockenfield together as the new leaders with a new found energy....but you still only had 1/3rd of the original magic "trifecta" that made it all work.

So they went from being one of the single most pioneering bands in metal history....to a joke....and now they are just a really good, but fairly average metal band with some pretty decent songs. 

None of the current members are showing me that they are willing to take any risks to try to recapture the heavyweight crown, but they are not devoid of creativity or decent material.    It's working, and if it ain't broke don't fix it, because that's a million times better than what Tate was doing.

[SoundscapeMN]

I guess i don't care enough to be disappointed.

Their important music for me begins and ends with Chris DeGarmo.

People love the Todd La Torre albums, but I guess for me, they would have had more appeal potentially had they reinvented their sound and actually got a singer who sounded much less if nothing like Geoff Tate, just in the desire to have something new. Now granted, they might not have wanted to call the band Queensryche then, but something else. But from a fan-service and business perspective, it would be like starting from scratch in a way, and killed their reason for making new music.

[Lowdz]

From RFO through Promised Land they were my favourite band, taking over from Rush as their star was starting to wane. As QR went downhill DT took over. They are still there.

[KevShmev]

To me, "something else" is the obvious answer.

I can't call a band with so much crap in their history great, but on the other hand, I cannot call the band that did Rage for Order, Mindcrime and Promised Land a disappointment.

[Mladen]

I went with great band with some low points, even though the low points consist of pretty much 20 years of music. What helps is that even those years feature some amazing songs. As average or even bad some of those albums are, disappointment would be a harsh word. And since I couldn't come up with any other word for it, I chose not to opt for something else.

Had the band ended after Promise land or Hear in the now frontier, I would probably not only call them a great band but one of the best bands of all time.

[Bertielee]

Something else. Not been enough of a fan to be disappointed and I have never considered them a great band, albeit a very good one. The only two albums I really like are OM and Empire. So, they have long been under my radar. The whole Geoff Tate debacle has had me amused rather than upset and the newest albums have nothing in them to get me interested in the band again.

B.Lee

[Stadler]

To me, "something else" is the obvious answer.

I can't call a band with so much crap in their history great, but on the other hand, I cannot call the band that did Rage for Order, Mindcrime and Promised Land a disappointment.

Sub "Empire" in for "Promised Land" and that's me.   Those three records, my god.    But most of everything that came after?   My god.   

[ytserush]

Something else, not me.

They are a band that had one of the most amazing starts we'll ever see. From the EP through Promised Land the band basically shat musical gold. Very few acts will come close to hitting what they did during that time frame. But starting with Hear in the Now a long string of meh albums started. Then of course starting with O:MII a bunch of really bad decisions started happening that helped chip away heavily at the band's legacy. That still doesn't take away from what they were and make them a disappointment, but rather I'm just disappointed in what they became. And after HitnF up to D2C each album had at least a few tracks I really enjoyed. Then they get rid of Tate and truly squandered momentum out of the gate. Had they release Condition Human out of the gate and really gotten behind it they would have really reestablished some legitimacy.

What is the band to me now? A good nostalgia act I'll certainly enjoy going to watch.

They don't even appeal to me as a nostalgia band.

When DeGarmo left, they stopped being special. If you held a gun to my head, I'd probably say Promised Land was the best album they've ever done. That tour ended up being an amazing experience. I

Then it started to fall apart for me. Continued to buy out of misplaced loyalty I suppose. Liked small bits of the albums that came after and never enough to see them live after that. Thought American Soldier was the best thing since Promised Land (One of my favorite albums of all-time) and kind of left me hopeful about what might come next.  Hell, I still even pull the Take Cover album off of the shelf for a listen sometimes. (I even think Geoff's first solo album isn't all that bad. Never heard the second.)

Mindcrime II I guess was the final nail in the coffin for me. Since then they pretty much have ceased to exist for me.  No interest at all. Just don't care, which I suppose is why I almost never click on a Queensryche thread.  I don't even care that there was a split. No interest on either side. Complete waste of my time.

Haven't felt any real passion for this band in about 10 years. A part of me thinks it never had to be this way but maybe that was the price that had to be paid for the first 12 years.

A musical footnote for me, but from 1983 to 95.....man what a footnote.

It is what it is I guess.....

[TAC]

If you held a gun to my head, I'd probably say Promised Land was the best album they've ever done.

People will say the craziest things with a gun pointed at them.

[goo-goo]

I’m not sure how to describe QR. Up until Promised Land, amazing band. From there onwards, they spiraled down out of control (I do like Tribe  though). Then, with LaTorre back, even though the studio albums have been good, they feel like a nostalgia act since they don’t play the new material. It’s been a weird fall from glory for them.

[Bertielee]

I’m not sure how to describe QR. Up until Promised Land, amazing band. From there onwards, they spiraled down out of control (I do like Tribe  though). Then, with LaTorre back, even though the studio albums have been good, they feel like a nostalgia act since they don’t play the new material. It’s been a weird fall from glory for them.

Yes and even if I'm not sold on LaTorre QR, not playing new material is strange to say the least. They had a chance to start anew with the line-up change and they blew it away.

B.Lee