NBA thread 2018-2019 v. Raptors are Champs

[Azyiu]

Really???  Gasol has been top shelf.  Lowry has been all-star quality defender too.  Green/Siakim are no slouches either.

As for Lin... yeah, he most certainly is a washed up bench warmer.  His offense was bad ... consistently - I think he had like 2 or 3 decent games.  His ability to run the floor wasn't impressive, and his defense was adequate.  He earned his #9 depth spot.

Gasol only came off life support since game 3... until then he didn't play like himself most of the playoffs. Averaging just 9 pts and 6 rebounds in the playoffs, he only scored in double figures 3 times in 14 playoffs games until game 3. He was averaging almost 16pts and 9 rpg until the playoffs.

As for Siakim, sure, he has been impressive, I will give you that. 

[jingle.boy]

Oh, I was all over the shit-on-Gasol's-offense bandwagon.  His offense was beyond terrible... I was referring to his defense as 'top-shelf'

[Azyiu]

Oh, I was all over the shit-on-Gasol's-offense bandwagon.  His offense was beyond terrible... I was referring to his defense as 'top-shelf'

First of all, I love Marc Gasol. I was actually overjoyed when he got traded to the Raptors (I am a life-long Lakers fan, but somehow the Raptors have a special place in my heart)... yet fact is he hasn't played well at all in these playoffs. 6.4rpg and 1.4 bpg ain't that impressive... in fact, if not for his amazing 5 blocks effort in game 3, he would have averaged barely just 1 bpg. I don't know if it is match ups, or his age finally catches up with him or what? It looks to me, at times, he was aging before my eyes.

All in all, I am more concerned about Leonard's leg issue. If he is not at least an 80%, the Raptors have no shot at winning the series. He didn't look explosive in game 4 at all.

[Samsara]

Gasol and Lowry are still quality defenders...in half-court. They are not as good when the pace is higher and in transition -- which is when the Bucks are most dangerous. That's the issue, defensively. Lowry and Gasol are getting old. And to be brutally honest, I think the age of the team is the main reason why Leonard is going to leave. I hope I'm wrong, as I like players staying with a team and committing, and the Raptors have a rabid fan base that has embraced him. But they really need to get younger and more athletic, otherwise if Leonard stays, he'll waste the remainder of his career. Trust me, my team has the same problem with Karl-Anthony Towns. We need to surround him with young, athletic shooters and defensive players.

[jingle.boy]

Agree on all those points Brian.

@ Azyiu... the rpg and bpg stats don't tell the whole picture with Gasol's defense.  Against the 76rs, he nullified Embiid (for the most part).  And (other than game 2), he has been a key piece to shut down the Buck's attack around the rim.  Giannis' points and % under 4 feet is down, and given that he's a mediocre shooter from beyond 4 feet (sub 40%), that's been the formula to stopping they Bucks' attack.  Plus, the rest of the team isn't picking him up with consistent perimeter shooting - though I do think the Raps switching defense plays a small role there.

[Samsara]

Agree on all those points Brian.

The Raptors are well run by Masai and his crew. I am sure they have an entire plan in place already that likely includes shipping off some of the older players for draft picks, and overall, a way to get younger and better, quickly. Masai is too smart not to have that in place. And it starts with trading Lowry, who has upped his value with his play this series after a subpar regular season. But its going to be a tough sell, when the Clippers come calling, along with the Knicks. Neither team is as successful as the Raptors, but they both have a lot more young potential. I wouldn't sleep on the Nets either. Not with Leonard's uncle/confidant being a NY/NJ guy.

I give the Raps credit for taking a chance and going all-in on Kawhi. Obviously, it has worked in the short term. But if he bolts, the rebuild is going to be painful. They'll be in contention for the worst record in the league (because I assume if Kawhi leaves, Masai and Webster will trade anyone of value for picks and younger talent).

So much intrigue and drama this offseason throughout the league, and the offseason hasn't even started yet. The whole month of July is going to be crazy. 

[jingle.boy]

Let's assume Leonard bolts.  I'll bet that they don't rebuild until mid/end of next year - ESPECIALLY if they make it to the finals or (slim chance) win it all.  They aren't going to want to give this city a (virtually) first-to-worst situation over the summer.  But yeah... they'll be bottom feeders for a few seasons if all they have to build around is Siakim and VanFleet.

[Lonk]

And just like that the raptors win 3 straight and are up 3-2.

[Azyiu]

Could it be? Would it be? Would this year's Finals be played outside of US soil for the first time ever?

[T-ski]

its been 5 games and the Bucks can't figure out how to play in the half court against this defense.

Fred Van Vleet....really?

Bucks are playing tight and with less confidence.  I'm not ready for our miracle season to end.

[jingle.boy]

Only the 2nd time all year the Bucks lost back-to-back games.  A small part of me is hoping they pull a 'Raptors' playoff job, and let it slip away when they are the better team. Last year the Raps dominated in the regular season (including Cleveland), then shriveled up.  Fingers crossed that the same fate awaits Milwaukee. 

Fingers are still heavily crossed, and I'm praying the Bucks have the yips.  Hard to believe the Bucks could lose 4-straight, but that's the only way the Raptors move on.  If the dear can comeback and recover to win on Satureday, zero chance they lose a Game 7 on home court.

This game was  exciting as hell.  Most entertaining game of the series that didn't go into double OT.  Two very questionable calls by the refs that ended up nullifying each other (the charge that Gasol should've drawn that ended up being a 3-point play - I think it was around the 91 point mark... maybe tied the game), and then the non-foul on Lowry with 16 seconds to go that allowed him to get the ball to Siakim for the game-sealing dunk to go up 5.

Leonard's leg seemed to hold up just fine.  #phew

Why is it that coach Bud always looks like he's trying to figure out who just farted? 

[Lonk]

Why is it that coach Bud always looks like he's trying to figure out who just farted? 

[TheOutlawXanadu]

Win or lose, I am incredibly proud of my Raps. Lots of guys are playing banged up, but they are fighting through it and not complaining. The team's defense is absolutely insane. Milwaukee can definitely still win it, but as a Toronto fan, I know that we will at least make it tough on them.

[Azyiu]

Yep, the Raptors finally played D like they are the #2 team in the east the last couple of games. I really don't care who wins the east, but it would be neat to see Toronto in the Finals... even though I know they would get killed by the Dubs with or without KD

[T-ski]

its really hard to fathom the Bucks going down in four straight games.

also, I'm not one to harp on the refs but ya.....

Raps are 15-0 in the last 15 games Tony Brothers was a ref in their game.
Raps were +13 in free throw attempts despite being -12 in shots in the paint.
2nd half foul calls....16 on Milwaukee, 8 on Toronto.

so much for the old adage the teams that attack the paint get rewarded with free throws.

[jingle.boy]

its really hard to fathom the Bucks going down in four straight games.

also, I'm not one to harp on the refs but ya.....

Raps are 15-0 in the last 15 games Tony Brothers was a ref in their game.
Raps were +13 in free throw attempts despite being -12 in shots in the paint.
2nd half foul calls....16 on Milwaukee, 8 on Toronto.

so much for the old adage the teams that attack the paint get rewarded with free throws.

The only one that seems worthy of a is the middle one.  I'm sure you could find a ref with a significant record on any team.  And the Raps have been on the other end of disproportionate foul calls... they were routinely out-whistled against the 76rs.

I'll say the same thing here as I did in the NHL thread - great teams overcome their obstacles, not blame their circumstances on them.  None of that will matter if the Bucks can win the next 2.

Plus, doesn't matter how many times you get to the charity stripe when you can't consistently drop the shots.   

The eye-test for me didn't think there were a LOT of blown calls.  Two significant ones (as I mentioned above) that ended up nullifying one another.  Otherwise, I didn't see a lot of complaining on either side.

[jingle.boy]

@ Kev... good effort in trying to troll me 

Because I know that you know the Blues have 19 Canadian born players; Berube is Canadian, as is Doug Armstrong.

[T-ski]

its really hard to fathom the Bucks going down in four straight games.

also, I'm not one to harp on the refs but ya.....

Raps are 15-0 in the last 15 games Tony Brothers was a ref in their game.
Raps were +13 in free throw attempts despite being -12 in shots in the paint.
2nd half foul calls....16 on Milwaukee, 8 on Toronto.

so much for the old adage the teams that attack the paint get rewarded with free throws.

The only one that seems worthy of a is the middle one.  I'm sure you could find a ref with a significant record on any team.  And the Raps have been on the other end of disproportionate foul calls... they were routinely out-whistled against the 76rs.

I'll say the same thing here as I did in the NHL thread - great teams overcome their obstacles, not blame their circumstances on them.  None of that will matter if the Bucks can win the next 2.

Plus, doesn't matter how many times you get to the charity stripe when you can't consistently drop the shots.   

The eye-test for me didn't think there were a LOT of blown calls.  Two significant ones (as I mentioned above) that ended up nullifying one another.  Otherwise, I didn't see a lot of complaining on either side.

tell me which team was Philly and which one was Toronto.....

FT shooting 138-171 and 137-169

ETA: game 5 of MIL/TOR was the most disproportional FT disparity in the series.

[KevShmev]

@ Kev... good effort in trying to troll me 

Because I know that you know the Blues have 19 Canadian born players; Berube is Canadian, as is Doug Armstrong.

I was going for humor more than trolling, honestly. 

[jingle.boy]

tell me which team was Philly and which one was Toronto.....

FT shooting 138-171 and 137-169

Fair enough... I was a little overzealous is saying they were "routinely out-whistled". But in Game 2, 76rs had 26 trips to the FT line; Raps 15; Game 7 it was 30-19.  Raps only lopsided game 'for' them was Game 5 blowout where it was 33-20.

ETA: game 5 of MIL/TOR was the most disproportional FT disparity in the series.

And yet even with that disparity last night, the Bucks are still +10 on FTA. 

@ Kev... I was trying for humour too, and being entirely facetious.

[Samsara]

Watching the entire game last night, the problem is really obvious.

Giannis' teammates lack of trust in him.

The guy is a world class talent, but he is not confident at all in his jumper. Or, let me rephrase -- his TEAMMATES are not confident at all in his jumper. Giannis would pass it in, and he'd never see it again, because his teammates wanted to shoot. Example. In the 4th, I forget what minute, but it was a key part of the game, the defender backed off Giannis, and he hit a 3 from straight on. Once that happened, the defense couldn't sag off him. But instead of going back to Giannis, who with his passing, and now some respect from the defense on the perimeter, the Bucks players just stayed away from Giannis and tried to do it themselves. HUGE, HUGE bonehead move.

If Coach Bud is smart, there will be a concerted effort to establish Giannis from the start, both inside an out. But Giannis will have to show patience, and his teammates will have to trust him. If they play the way they did last night on Saturday night, the Raptors are going to the Finals.

[T-ski]

Watching the entire game last night, the problem is really obvious.

Giannis' teammates lack of trust in him.

The guy is a world class talent, but he is not confident at all in his jumper. Or, let me rephrase -- his TEAMMATES are not confident at all in his jumper. Giannis would pass it in, and he'd never see it again, because his teammates wanted to shoot. Example. In the 4th, I forget what minute, but it was a key part of the game, the defender backed off Giannis, and he hit a 3 from straight on. Once that happened, the defense couldn't sag off him. But instead of going back to Giannis, who with his passing, and now some respect from the defense on the perimeter, the Bucks players just stayed away from Giannis and tried to do it themselves. HUGE, HUGE bonehead move.

If Coach Bud is smart, there will be a concerted effort to establish Giannis from the start, both inside an out. But Giannis will have to show patience, and his teammates will have to trust him. If they play the way they did last night on Saturday night, the Raptors are going to the Finals.

going to have to disagree,  the problem the Bucks have had this entire series is making three's/defending three's. As a team the Bucks are shooting under 32% from three, which is well under their season average, while Toronto is shooting closer to 37%.  I know you love Khris Middleton Samsara, but he is fools gold and has been absolute garbage in this series. Mirotic has been so bad he was benched last game.  Malcolm Brogdon is the only player I have confidence in making shots from the perimeter at the moment.  If the Bucks make their average 3pt % this series is over already.

[KevShmev]

@ Kev... I was trying for humour too, and being entirely facetious.

Haha, all good!

If the Raptors win this series, I am pretty sure most of the country will be rooting for them (even though they have little to no chance).

[Azyiu]

O'Canada...

Wow!! The Raptors looked dead early in the 3rd qtr. What a come back! Congratulations, Toronto.

[T-ski]

congrats to the Raps.  never thought the Bucks would lose 4 in a row.

[jingle.boy]

congrats to the Raps.  never thought the Bucks would lose 4 in a row.

Me either.  Very similar story to what the Raps experienced last year - never lost more than 2-straight, and then got swept by LeBron.  Finally the shoe is on someone else's foot.  Bucks have got a very bright future ahead and will be the team to beat in the East for a few years, but the stars just seemed to align for Toronto this time.

Helluva exciting game again last night.  I didn't believe it when the announce team called it, but a 26-3 run over 7-ish minutes capped by that dunk on Giannis!?!!?  It wasn't until then that it felt like it could happen.  I honestly thought it was gonna be another game-2 scenario.  But wow... everyone stepped up (sans Green) on both sides of the court.  Gasol with a couple of big 3s; VanFleet playing hard on both ends, and Kawhi with a few HUGE rebounds in a game where they were being dominated on the glass.  This is a resilient team for sure.  Seemed like they did to the Bucks what the Warriors consistently do - get down, then storm back.  And the Raps did it two games in a row.

I ain't gonna count them out against the Warriors, but if they can defend like that against the Bucks, the Finals might be a more exciting series than most around here think.

[Samsara]

Congrats to the Raptors and their fans. A couple of observations from the game:

The Raptors showed a TON of heart. A TON of it. You could clearly see they wanted it more.

The Bucks had a great season, but Giannis is exposed. The Freak is going to be the best player in basketball in the next couple of years, but he has to get into the gym this summer and develop a reliable jumper and three-point shot.

But the more disturbing thing I saw, was Giannis deferring to lesser teammates. I get trying to get your teammates involved. But he should have been more aggressive in seeking to take over. Some of that was a credit to the Raptors' defense, but honestly, I think he was scared of the moment and not confident in his ability. That's concerning. If you look over at Kawhi, he got his teammates involved, but was ready and willing, and did take over. Giannis needs to take a lesson from The Claw, and come back with a jumper and that will to win. Hopefully, for his sake, this was a good learning experience.

Milwaukee got out-coached. Plain and simple.

Good luck to the Raptors against the Warriors. I am rooting for the Dinos to upset the Ws. I don't think it will happen, but I'm pulling for them.

[T-ski]

Congrats to the Raptors and their fans. A couple of observations from the game:

The Raptors showed a TON of heart. A TON of it. You could clearly see they wanted it more.

The Bucks had a great season, but Giannis is exposed. The Freak is going to be the best player in basketball in the next couple of years, but he has to get into the gym this summer and develop a reliable jumper and three-point shot.

But the more disturbing thing I saw, was Giannis deferring to lesser teammates. I get trying to get your teammates involved. But he should have been more aggressive in seeking to take over. Some of that was a credit to the Raptors' defense, but honestly, I think he was scared of the moment and not confident in his ability. That's concerning. If you look over at Kawhi, he got his teammates involved, but was ready and willing, and did take over. Giannis needs to take a lesson from The Claw, and come back with a jumper and that will to win. Hopefully, for his sake, this was a good learning experience.

Milwaukee got out-coached. Plain and simple.

Good luck to the Raptors against the Warriors. I am rooting for the Dinos to upset the Ws. I don't think it will happen, but I'm pulling for them.

it may surprise you to hear Giannis and Kawhi shot the same percentage from 3pt in the series.  I'll say it again, the difference in the series was TEAM 3pt shooting, the Bucks were under their season % from 3 while Toronto was above theirs.

this tweet sums it up beautifully...

Ben Taylor
@ElGee35
Most people still don’t intuit how close and how variable game outcomes are.
Merely 50% 3-pt shooting (!) from Fred Van Vleet essentially swings the series to MIL in 6. Remember that when you read sweeping narratives about these teams/players.

[jingle.boy]

To that point, I've no doubt that one could pick any number of a few dozen individual stats that "swing" the series in favor of one team over the other (if Danny Green shoots a MERE 50% from 3, then it's a couple of dominating wins to close the series).  These were 5 REALLY close games.  But on the aggregate, the Raps balanced themselves out on both sides of the ball - the Bucks did not.  So yes, there are (and for the Bucks - could be and should be) some sweeping narratives.  Blaming the result on the other team's over performance won't help any team; take responsibility for your own play and you know where to improve.  That's what the Raps did after the last 3 losses to the Cavs.

To the earlier point, I think in Game 5 and 6, Giannis did come thru with a few clutch 3s... and it did change how the Raps had to defend him.  But they were still able to defend him effectively and stop the team.

[Azyiu]

Cavs' Gilbert hospitalized with stroke symptoms http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/2...troke-symptoms

LeBron's BFF is hospitalized... 

[Samsara]

it may surprise you to hear Giannis and Kawhi shot the same percentage from 3pt in the series.  I'll say it again, the difference in the series was TEAM 3pt shooting, the Bucks were under their season % from 3 while Toronto was above theirs.

I'll grant you that overall, it was team 3 point shooting. But I'm not just talking about 3s. I'm talking about a reliable jump shot. Giannis does not have one. He's not confident, with a guy running at him, to pull up and take a shot. Whereas Kawhi, is not at all intimidated. That's called lacking confidence in your own ability. And you know what, for Giannis, it was good to get this experience. He'll come back next year with that jumper, and if mgmt takes care of the team, the Bucks will be a force for another decade, and probably win a title or two. But the key to me was the best player on the Bucks not be confident in his perimeter game, after the defense took away what he's great at. Speaks volumes as to the Raptors coaching, the heart of the Raptors team, and the growth Giannis still needs as a player.

And again, I know its heartbreaking, but this was a necessary step for Giannis to become the best player in basketball, and the Bucks to win a title. And both things WILL happen in the next several years.

this tweet sums it up beautifully...

Ben Taylor
@ElGee35
Most people still don’t intuit how close and how variable game outcomes are.
Merely 50% 3-pt shooting (!) from Fred Van Vleet essentially swings the series to MIL in 6. Remember that when you read sweeping narratives about these teams/players.

I can make numbers say anything I want too. When it comes down to it, you watched the same games I did. My observations were spot on. If Giannis had a jumper that was reliable, and that he wasn't afraid to take when the defense sagged off him, the Bucks would have won the series. Pretty simple.

And again, I was rooting for the Bucks and love their team. I think Lopez is so underrated, and while he struggled a bit, Middleton is a dynamic offensive talent (I am a big Brogodon fan too). But the better team did indeed win this year. The Raptors rose when great teams rise.

[jingle.boy]

What is with that f'n schedule??  2 days in between each game (sans game 3-4).  17 days to play 7 games?!?!?!?  That's just ridiculous.  I don't know if the NBA is stretching it out to get KD back, or to give Kawhi extra days between games.  Either way, that is a fucked up schedule.

[Azyiu]

What is with that f'n schedule??  2 days in between each game (sans game 3-4).  17 days to play 7 games?!?!?!?  That's just ridiculous.  I don't know if the NBA is stretching it out to get KD back, or to give Kawhi extra days between games.  Either way, that is a fucked up schedule.

Finals' scheduling has always been this way at least since the 90's, if not earlier... still, it doesn't make it alright. Guess the league is giving them extra days to recover from excessive partying after each game? 

[Samsara]

What is with that f'n schedule??  2 days in between each game (sans game 3-4).  17 days to play 7 games?!?!?!?  That's just ridiculous.  I don't know if the NBA is stretching it out to get KD back, or to give Kawhi extra days between games.  Either way, that is a fucked up schedule.

Finals' scheduling has always been this way at least since the 90's, if not earlier... still, it doesn't make it alright. Guess the league is giving them extra days to recover from excessive partying after each game? 

The almighty dollar. The hype, the increased ad revenue, etc. It's all about the money. It just so happens that this year it gives KD a longer time to recover and contribute. But its all about the money.

[TheOutlawXanadu]

this tweet sums it up beautifully...

Ben Taylor
@ElGee35
Most people still don’t intuit how close and how variable game outcomes are.
Merely 50% 3-pt shooting (!) from Fred Van Vleet essentially swings the series to MIL in 6. Remember that when you read sweeping narratives about these teams/players.

I can make numbers say anything I want too. When it comes down to it, you watched the same games I did. My observations were spot on. If Giannis had a jumper that was reliable, and that he wasn't afraid to take when the defense sagged off him, the Bucks would have won the series. Pretty simple.

I think the greater point here is that there are many variables that could have changed and swung the series. For example, FVV not hitting every shot in Games 5-6. But what people always seem to harp on is "Superstar X should have done Y better!" It's not that the observation is wrong, it's just that people focus on that kind of thing with a laser, and usually just when the player loses. If the Bucks won the series and Giannis played exactly the same way, I am sure that some people would still be talking about how bad his jump shot is, but most of the conversation would revolve around how amazing it was that Giannis led the Bucks to the Finals. Basically... What people focus on tends to shift based on winning/losing, and the best players usually get 100% of the blame or 100% of the credit.

I'm talking more generally here. I actually agree with every point you've made thus far! I'm just commenting on... I guess... The way people talk about basketball sometimes.