Author Topic: Not just another MP v MM topic  (Read 1525 times)

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Offline Shooters1221

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Not just another MP v MM topic
« on: June 01, 2018, 03:28:25 PM »
Sorry if this has been discussed before but...

I have not put much in depth thought into this observation, but it just kinda came to me listening to the entire DT library heavily in the last weeks. As being in my 50's now, and a fan of many prog. and metal and, I guess, all genre bands from my years past, I have noticed that when listening to the MP albums, it seems that he really incorporated his drumming influences from past drummers i.e. Peart/Bruford...etc into his DT "oeuvre" so to speak, you just know when you hear it. I don't seem to find any of that in MM's (limited)work with DT. Now, I'm not really sure MM as ever showed any kind of influence in any of his past projects as I have not followed him as much as MP, so maybe I'm way off base, but I don't hear anything that sticks out as prior influential drumming since he has been with DT, I know that he has many influences, but he just is....well...MM which is awesome BTW. I understand that DT had a different writing process with MP and MM doesn't have as much of a choice when composing drum parts and the library spans back quite a ways and MP was part of a different time span and more vast part of that....as I said, it was just a spontaneous observation. Any thoughts?

Offline cramx3

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Re: Not just another MP v MM topic
« Reply #1 on: June 01, 2018, 03:33:12 PM »
MP always wore his influences proudly on his sleeve.  I don't think your observation is wrong.

Offline lucasembarbosa

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Re: Not just another MP v MM topic
« Reply #2 on: June 02, 2018, 06:17:43 AM »
Well... I hear a lot of Neil Peart and Buddy Rich (and other more traditional drummers) in MM's style.

Offline Fritzinger

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Re: Not just another MP v MM topic
« Reply #3 on: June 02, 2018, 08:48:50 AM »
Well... I hear a lot of Neil Peart and Buddy Rich (and other more traditional drummers) in MM's style.

I was just gonna mention Neil. MMs tom-tom fills are clearly influenced by him, imo.
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Offline pcs90

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Re: Not just another MP v MM topic
« Reply #4 on: June 02, 2018, 12:01:27 PM »
Well... I hear a lot of Neil Peart and Buddy Rich (and other more traditional drummers) in MM's style.
Agreed, definitely Neil.

Offline Stewie

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Re: Not just another MP v MM topic
« Reply #5 on: June 03, 2018, 08:06:35 AM »
I’d say the Peart influence is a lot more evident in Portnoy’s playing than in Mangini’s...
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Offline erwinrafael

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Re: Not just another MP v MM topic
« Reply #6 on: June 03, 2018, 08:55:57 AM »
It's hard to hear the drummer influences in Mangini's studio work because a big influence in how he compose his parts is not a drummer. It's Steve Vai. That is where he got his style of playing along the other melodic instruments, moving up and down scales, etc.

But if I would forward a drummer that I hear closest to Mangini, it's Terry Bozzio. This song Mangini once said influenced how he composes his drum parts:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=i-bonV_on4c

Offline lucasembarbosa

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Re: Not just another MP v MM topic
« Reply #7 on: June 03, 2018, 12:48:24 PM »
I’d say the Peart influence is a lot more evident in Portnoy’s playing than in Mangini’s...

Why? Both Mangini and Peart are more focused and playing-oriented, while MP is much more like Keith Moon or Lars Ulrich himself, wildlike players, showmen. Note that I'm not comparing MP's technical quality to Lars', but his overall style behind the drum kit.

Offline Fritzinger

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Re: Not just another MP v MM topic
« Reply #8 on: June 04, 2018, 03:56:08 AM »
It's hard to hear the drummer influences in Mangini's studio work because a big influence in how he compose his parts is not a drummer. It's Steve Vai. That is where he got his style of playing along the other melodic instruments, moving up and down scales, etc.

But if I would forward a drummer that I hear closest to Mangini, it's Terry Bozzio. This song Mangini once said influenced how he composes his drum parts:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=i-bonV_on4c

The cymbal use in this song is simply amazing. I totally get how MM was influenced by Terry. I haven't listened to UK in a while, thanks for the great idea :)
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Offline mikeyd23

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Re: Not just another MP v MM topic
« Reply #9 on: June 04, 2018, 08:44:29 AM »
It's hard to hear the drummer influences in Mangini's studio work because a big influence in how he compose his parts is not a drummer. It's Steve Vai. That is where he got his style of playing along the other melodic instruments, moving up and down scales, etc.

But if I would forward a drummer that I hear closest to Mangini, it's Terry Bozzio. This song Mangini once said influenced how he composes his drum parts:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=i-bonV_on4c

Yeah I agree, Terry is the first one that came to mind.

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Re: Not just another MP v MM topic
« Reply #10 on: June 04, 2018, 09:35:15 PM »
Both have their own distinctive styles and when you hear each one you can clearly tell it is MP or MM. Having said that, it's funny that both mention some of the same drummers as inspirations. Neil Peart and John Bonham, for example, are always cited by both Mikes as inspirations, but then Portnoy goes to more straight rock drummers like Keith Moon and Ringo, while Mangini goes into jazz/fusion territory citing Buddy Rich and Bill Cobham.

Btw, here's a Mangini interview (that erwinrafael cited) where he talks about his 10 most influential drum albums (and drummers, of course): https://www.musicradar.com/news/drums/dream-theaters-mike-mangini-my-10-most-influential-drum-albums-553178
It sounds like, "ruk, ruk, ruk, ruk, ruk." Instead of the more pleasing kick drum sound of, "gzarruk, gzarruk, gzarruk, gzarruk."

Offline Adami

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Re: Not just another MP v MM topic
« Reply #11 on: June 04, 2018, 09:52:53 PM »
I’d say the Peart influence is a lot more evident in Portnoy’s playing than in Mangini’s...

Why? Both Mangini and Peart are more focused and playing-oriented, while MP is much more like Keith Moon or Lars Ulrich himself, wildlike players, showmen. Note that I'm not comparing MP's technical quality to Lars', but his overall style behind the drum kit.

But that's a philosophy of drumming, not a style. I don't hear a ton of NP in MM's playing. I also never listen to a drummer and compare their drumming philosophies to other drummers.

I hear a lot of NP in MP. I can see the TB in MM though.
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Offline Volante99

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Re: Not just another MP v MM topic
« Reply #12 on: June 30, 2018, 08:22:36 PM »
I’d say the Peart influence is a lot more evident in Portnoy’s playing than in Mangini’s...

Why? Both Mangini and Peart are more focused and playing-oriented, while MP is much more like Keith Moon or Lars Ulrich himself, wildlike players, showmen. Note that I'm not comparing MP's technical quality to Lars', but his overall style behind the drum kit.

But that's a philosophy of drumming, not a style. I don't hear a ton of NP in MM's playing. I also never listen to a drummer and compare their drumming philosophies to other drummers.

I hear a lot of NP in MP. I can see the TB in MM though.

Totally agree. I hear very little Peart influence in MM's playing, whereas MP has always sounded like Peart on steroids to me. I hear very little prog influence in Mangini's playing at all which I think might be part of the problem. I don't think prog is Mangini's "natural habitat".

Offline Bertielee

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Re: Not just another MP v MM topic
« Reply #13 on: July 01, 2018, 04:15:07 AM »
I’d say the Peart influence is a lot more evident in Portnoy’s playing than in Mangini’s...

Why? Both Mangini and Peart are more focused and playing-oriented, while MP is much more like Keith Moon or Lars Ulrich himself, wildlike players, showmen. Note that I'm not comparing MP's technical quality to Lars', but his overall style behind the drum kit.

But that's a philosophy of drumming, not a style. I don't hear a ton of NP in MM's playing. I also never listen to a drummer and compare their drumming philosophies to other drummers.

I hear a lot of NP in MP. I can see the TB in MM though.

Totally agree. I hear very little Peart influence in MM's playing, whereas MP has always sounded like Peart on steroids to me. I hear very little prog influence in Mangini's playing at all which I think might be part of the problem. I don't think prog is Mangini's "natural habitat".

Depends on what you define as prog, but I get what you mean. For me, MM is more in the "metal" vein.

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Re: Not just another MP v MM topic
« Reply #14 on: July 01, 2018, 01:38:11 PM »
Well, he’s pretty good with the heavy parts, but to say prog isn’t his natural habitat isn’t too accurate, imo. Just listen to his work with Steve Vai, like Fire Garden Suite. He was also invited to play for the final tour of U.K. (classic prog band) in 2015. I doubt they would’ve invited him if he wasn’t prog enough. I think we’re confusing sounding similar to Peart with being a prog drummer, two very different things.
It sounds like, "ruk, ruk, ruk, ruk, ruk." Instead of the more pleasing kick drum sound of, "gzarruk, gzarruk, gzarruk, gzarruk."

Offline Bertielee

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Re: Not just another MP v MM topic
« Reply #15 on: July 01, 2018, 02:13:06 PM »
Well, he’s pretty good with the heavy parts, but to say prog isn’t his natural habitat isn’t too accurate, imo. Just listen to his work with Steve Vai, like Fire Garden Suite. He was also invited to play for the final tour of U.K. (classic prog band) in 2015. I doubt they would’ve invited him if he wasn’t prog enough. I think we’re confusing sounding similar to Peart with being a prog drummer, two very different things.

Yes, that's what I meant. I just said he was more in the metal vein for me, that doesn't mean exclusively. Of course he is a prog drummer as well.

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Offline Volante99

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Re: Not just another MP v MM topic
« Reply #16 on: July 01, 2018, 03:59:47 PM »
Well, he’s pretty good with the heavy parts, but to say prog isn’t his natural habitat isn’t too accurate, imo. Just listen to his work with Steve Vai, like Fire Garden Suite. He was also invited to play for the final tour of U.K. (classic prog band) in 2015. I doubt they would’ve invited him if he wasn’t prog enough. I think we’re confusing sounding similar to Peart with being a prog drummer, two very different things.

Well, as difficult as it is, we have to draw the line and and define prog drumming somewhere. Peart is your gold standard as is Bill Bruford, Carl Palmer, even Mike Portnoy. I'm not saying that Mangini isn't competent in a prog context. I just don't think that's where his strengths are, and I see very little of that influence in his playing. He seems much more confident in the jazz and metal realm.

As far as playing for Steve Vai, I would assume Vai wrote every single drum hit on that entire record.

 

Offline erwinrafael

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Re: Not just another MP v MM topic
« Reply #17 on: July 01, 2018, 08:03:37 PM »
What is prog drumming? Yes, MM's style goes well with metal especially because of his footwork, but he's been doing a lot of prog material in his career:

Egg Zooming: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VXcbXZ_H9BA

And Mangini did a full album of Rush covers, including this gem:

Spirit of the Radio: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KvEGWPQWKYk

Polythythms, odd meters, limb independence...what's not prog about that? Is Terry Bozzio not prog enough too?

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Re: Not just another MP v MM topic
« Reply #18 on: July 01, 2018, 09:01:35 PM »
Well, he’s pretty good with the heavy parts, but to say prog isn’t his natural habitat isn’t too accurate, imo. Just listen to his work with Steve Vai, like Fire Garden Suite. He was also invited to play for the final tour of U.K. (classic prog band) in 2015. I doubt they would’ve invited him if he wasn’t prog enough. I think we’re confusing sounding similar to Peart with being a prog drummer, two very different things.

Well, as difficult as it is, we have to draw the line and and define prog drumming somewhere. Peart is your gold standard as is Bill Bruford, Carl Palmer, even Mike Portnoy. I'm not saying that Mangini isn't competent in a prog context. I just don't think that's where his strengths are, and I see very little of that influence in his playing. He seems much more confident in the jazz and metal realm.

As far as playing for Steve Vai, I would assume Vai wrote every single drum hit on that entire record.

If we judge "prog dumming" by how similar a drummer sounds like Peart or Portnoy, for example, then Gavin Harrisson isn't a prog drummer at all. See how silly that sounds?
It sounds like, "ruk, ruk, ruk, ruk, ruk." Instead of the more pleasing kick drum sound of, "gzarruk, gzarruk, gzarruk, gzarruk."

Offline Volante99

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Re: Not just another MP v MM topic
« Reply #19 on: July 01, 2018, 09:50:57 PM »
Well, he’s pretty good with the heavy parts, but to say prog isn’t his natural habitat isn’t too accurate, imo. Just listen to his work with Steve Vai, like Fire Garden Suite. He was also invited to play for the final tour of U.K. (classic prog band) in 2015. I doubt they would’ve invited him if he wasn’t prog enough. I think we’re confusing sounding similar to Peart with being a prog drummer, two very different things.

Well, as difficult as it is, we have to draw the line and and define prog drumming somewhere. Peart is your gold standard as is Bill Bruford, Carl Palmer, even Mike Portnoy. I'm not saying that Mangini isn't competent in a prog context. I just don't think that's where his strengths are, and I see very little of that influence in his playing. He seems much more confident in the jazz and metal realm.

As far as playing for Steve Vai, I would assume Vai wrote every single drum hit on that entire record.

If we judge "prog dumming" by how similar a drummer sounds like Peart or Portnoy, for example, then Gavin Harrisson isn't a prog drummer at all. See how silly that sounds?

Not necessarily. I hear the Peart influence all over Harrison's playing. He clearly comes from that same classic prog-school that Portnoy lives in.

Yes I get it. Prog drumming is a hard concept to nail down. And people have other valid ideas on what that should be (or even if it should be defined). But I'm also coming from this under the pretext that Mangini has truly struggled finding his voice in DT or even simply playing Portnoy's parts. I think PART  of that reason is he just doesn't do well with that type of drumming. It's not his forte.

Offline erwinrafael

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Re: Not just another MP v MM topic
« Reply #20 on: July 01, 2018, 09:57:31 PM »
Mangini struggled playing Portnoy's parts?  :rollin :rollin :rollin

Offline Volante99

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Re: Not just another MP v MM topic
« Reply #21 on: July 01, 2018, 10:19:06 PM »
Mangini struggled playing Portnoy's parts?  :rollin :rollin :rollin

Ahem. With all due respect, the butchery of Hell's Kitchen would like a word with you. Also, the pre-solo breakdown during Lie, the breakdown after the As I Am solo, the Scarred unison/solos section. I'll be nice and just say his interpretations of these signature Portnoy moments are...interesting...


Offline erwinrafael

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Re: Not just another MP v MM topic
« Reply #22 on: July 01, 2018, 10:30:57 PM »
Excuse me, please watch the Hell's Kitchen Back at Budokan version so that you would have a better idea of how MM plays the song after he had some time to play it instead of some celfone camera shot at the start of the tour

You don't like MM's style, doesn't mean that he has a "hard time" playing MP's parts note for note. It's more like he just has a certain preference on how to play those tunes. You really expect MP's replacement to play all the DT songs like an MP clone reproducing even his signature hi-hat and cymbals playing technique?
« Last Edit: July 01, 2018, 10:37:54 PM by erwinrafael »

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Re: Not just another MP v MM topic
« Reply #23 on: July 02, 2018, 09:08:24 AM »
Mangini is just a different guy that MP. In my opinion I see MP the drummer with more emotional feel while MM has a bit more technical prowess. For example MM's drum parts in Moment of Betrayal are so odd as far as time signature goes its different from any drum part I've heard MP play.
Now drum sound is a different story. I think he was too low in mix on ADTOE, and had that horrible I&W's snare sound on The Astonishing.
All being said, I really love both drummers and think at this point MM is just the right guy for this band. I think MM being the drummer will extend the life of DT because I think MP was wearing the band out with his OCD behavior, control attitude, and discontent with the band in general. I think MP was bored in DT and wanted the paycheck but wasn't moved by the band itself anymore.
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Offline Dublagent66

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Re: Not just another MP v MM topic
« Reply #24 on: July 13, 2018, 04:18:52 PM »
MM doesn't struggle with MP's drum parts.  He's just improvising his own style into the passage without straying too far from what MP wrote.  JR does the same thing with KM and DS compositions.  Nothing new.
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Offline Bertielee

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Re: Not just another MP v MM topic
« Reply #25 on: July 14, 2018, 02:21:43 AM »
MM doesn't struggle with MP's drum parts.  He's just improvising his own style into the passage without straying too far from what MP wrote.  JR does the same thing with KM and DS compositions.  Nothing new.

Exactly. I don't know where all this "MM is struggling with MP's parts" came from.

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Offline Trav86

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Re: Not just another MP v MM topic
« Reply #26 on: July 14, 2018, 05:44:43 AM »
Mike Portnoy is a really great drummer. Mike Mangini is one of the most technically proficient, most capable and most creative drummers, that has ever lived. I doubt there is anything musically that MM “struggles” with.  Just my two cents.
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Offline Vmadera00

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Re: Not just another MP v MM topic
« Reply #27 on: July 14, 2018, 07:04:26 AM »
I don’t think struggle is the right world. I would say his interpretation is the thing in question.

I love DT and I personally think MM is the right guy for the band, but I seen every N.Y. show with MM and it’s just sounds different and not in a good way. That was more clear when they play “finally free” for the DT self title tour.

Last year I saw The Shattered Fortress with Portnoy and Haken, and man I missed his drumming on DT.

Offline Bertielee

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Re: Not just another MP v MM topic
« Reply #28 on: July 14, 2018, 07:17:57 AM »
Yes, it's different, and I also prefer the way MP played his own songs. Interpretation is the right word I think.

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Offline Ben_Jamin

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Re: Not just another MP v MM topic
« Reply #29 on: July 14, 2018, 09:57:12 AM »
I don’t think struggle is the right world. I would say his interpretation is the thing in question.

I love DT and I personally think MM is the right guy for the band, but I seen every N.Y. show with MM and it’s just sounds different and not in a good way. That was more clear when they play “finally free” for the DT self title tour.

Last year I saw The Shattered Fortress with Portnoy and Haken, and man I missed his drumming on DT.

Basically, its just you missing MP's drumming. Its his style you got used to. No harm in that.

I enjoy Manginis interpretations of songs. My favorite of his is Endless Sacrifice.
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Re: Not just another MP v MM topic
« Reply #30 on: July 14, 2018, 11:56:06 AM »
I also prefer Mangini’s interpretations in many of MP’s songs - the shattered fortress on BTFW being a personal favorite, but I also think that MP drumming still fits better on “ballads” like The spirit carries on, Peruvian skies, another day or finally free, for example.
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Offline erwinrafael

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Re: Not just another MP v MM topic
« Reply #31 on: July 15, 2018, 10:22:10 AM »
I don’t think struggle is the right world. I would say his interpretation is the thing in question.

I love DT and I personally think MM is the right guy for the band, but I seen every N.Y. show with MM and it’s just sounds different and not in a good way. That was more clear when they play “finally free” for the DT self title tour.

Ah, so you miss that aspect of the drumming. Well, for some drummers like me, that Finally Free section was MP at his overdrumming worst, a solemn song with a drumming exhibition that does not fit the mood of the song. But it really is a matter of preference.
« Last Edit: July 15, 2018, 09:27:26 PM by erwinrafael »

Offline Trav86

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Re: Not just another MP v MM topic
« Reply #32 on: July 15, 2018, 06:24:41 PM »
I don’t think struggle is the right world. I would say his interpretation is the thing in question.

I love DT and I personally think MM is the right guy for the band, but I seen every N.Y. show with MM and it’s just sounds different and not in a good way. That was more clear when they play “finally free” for the DT self title tour.

Ah, so you miss that aspect of the drumming. Well, for some drummers like me, that Finally Free section was MP at his overdrumming worst as a solemn song with a drumming exhibition that does not fit the mood of the song, but it really is a matter of preference.

I guess I agree with this. SFAM was the beginning of their “over-doing it” era.  Not having a producer to reign in Portnoy or other certain members. Even Rush always knew they needed an outside ear.
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Offline KevShmev

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Re: Not just another MP v MM topic
« Reply #33 on: July 15, 2018, 07:49:23 PM »


I guess I agree with this. SFAM was the beginning of their “over-doing it” era.  Not having a producer to reign in Portnoy or other certain members. Even Rush always knew they needed an outside ear.

True, but since it was a concept album, the story was the main focus and the overplaying wasn't really a problem, except for the addition of The Dance of Eternity, which sticks out like a sore thumb as being unnecessary (not a bad song, just sounds out of place).

Train of Thought is when they went off the rails with the overplaying (see: the end of This Dying Soul), but even on that album, the songs are mostly well-written.  They just went overboard at times with the flashy playing.