Dream Theater Finishes Smoking Barbecue!! - Album in Food Warmer!

[pg1067]

But what is interesting to note, is that it was never intended to be in the middle of the album in the first place - it was supposed to open the album, and PMU was supposed to be in between Surrounded and UaGM. It was only due to label pressure that it ended up being moved to the spot it's in.

Just when I thought I knew everything there was to know about that album!

Did you know that the other thing the label also wanted DT to do was to give the album a self-titled name (in other words, album #2 would be known as "Dream Theater")? So with both of those changes that the label wanted and the band did not, a deal was struck: they'd swap Metropolis and PMU in the tracklisting, but leave the album with the name the band wanted: Images and Words.

I want to say that I knew that one.  The PMU/Metropolis thing makes sense given that PMU was (one of) the last song written for the album and everything else had been part of their repertoire for a while.

[Setlist Scotty]

never before heard the name "Back to Budokan" ... Now that I checked, the name was actually known late last year.. IIRC no one in the thread about that dvd ever mentioned it.. Weird..

Not sure where the title came from exactly, but I would imagine it was either the title of one of the early bootlegs of the broadcast, or it was something that the fans came up with and stuck.

[gzarruk]

never before heard the name "Back to Budokan" ... Now that I checked, the name was actually known late last year.. IIRC no one in the thread about that dvd ever mentioned it.. Weird..

Not sure where the title came from exactly, but I would imagine it was either the title of one of the early bootlegs of the broadcast, or it was something that the fans came up with and stuck.

It was the name of the bootleg that was circulating online at first. It became more popular after Chycki shared a picture of it and I guess it stuck.

[Evai]

They took it from a Mr Big DVD of the same name (A good DVD, if I may say  )

[TAC]

Isn't that what JP has always said? WWMBD







(what would Mr. Big do)

[Addy]

People keep saying that - but there exists a audience sourced IEM matrix bootleg you can compare with, and if you overlay it, it's actually 95% identical. There are some sections where they've replaced what James sings with a better vocal take from another show (the benefit of recording every show with protools), and a few pitch corrections here and there, but for the most part its actually not corrected.

But there's a production mishap with recording that caused the vocals to have a phasing effect. People think "oh, there's something strange with James voice, it must be auto-tune", but it's actually a recording effect. It doesnt change the pitch at all - it adds a chorus-y, flanger-y effect on the vocal due to the way the vocals were recorded.

Recording effect? What kind of effect? What way of recording? With a chorus on the way in? Sorry Noxon, but you are far from being objective here. JLB doesn't sing like this and didn't sound that spot on last year. Yes, I've heard bootlegs. And yes, I've been to a gig on that tour. It is corrected far more than just "here and there". Every live release starting from Score is. Even if there's a production mishap on this recording - well, modulation effects or let's call them phase issues, because that's what it is, may cover pitch problems. Anyone saying James was good on that tour is either non-objective or has very little idea about what a great performance is. I also wish he maintained the power and sound he had. But why was he one of the greatest live performers and now he's not - that's a subject for voice teachers.

[noxon]

Dude, I'm saying you can DIRECTLY COMPARE the show with a bootleg recording that is sourced from In-Ear Monitor mix. You can hear EXACTLY what James sounded like on THAT VERY SHOW.

You can OVERLAY it with the TV-recording. And hear the difference. I have. For most of the recording in fact, due to this very issue being discussed a lot.

His pitch is 95% the same in the overlay. And modulation effects do not occur from pitch correction software - that's simply not how it works.

Here's one example: https://dtnorway.com/acos.mp3. Here you can hear an example of where they replaced a section with another shows performance, and some pitch correction. And this is at the very end of the show, where his voice is the most worn out. And yet - almost the entire clip is identical in the left ear vs the right ear (monomixes of the dvd vs the bootleg).

Or : https://www.dtnorway.com/ttt.mp3  or https://www.dtnorway.com/asiam.mp3  or https://dtnorway.com/tden.mp3. Notice that the chorus effect is most apparent on the latter two, where they use effects live to fatten the vocals... But the pitch is still the same.

So yeah, objective.

[Max Kuehnau]

Dude, I'm saying you can DIRECTLY COMPARE the show with a bootleg recording that is sourced from In-Ear Monitor mix. You can hear EXACTLY what James sounded like on THAT VERY SHOW.

You can OVERLAY it with the TV-recording. And hear the difference. I have. For most of the recording in fact, due to this very issue being discussed a lot.

His pitch is 95% the same in the overlay. And modulation effects do not occur from pitch correction software - that's simply not how it works.

Here's one example: https://dtnorway.com/acos.mp3. Here you can hear an example of where they replaced a section with another shows performance, and some pitch correction. And this is at the very end of the show, where his voice is the most worn out. And yet - almost the entire clip is identical in the left ear vs the right ear (monomixes of the dvd vs the bootleg).

Or : https://www.dtnorway.com/ttt.mp3  or https://www.dtnorway.com/asiam.mp3  or https://dtnorway.com/tden.mp3. Notice that the chorus effect is most apparent on the latter two, where they use effects live to fatten the vocals... But the pitch is still the same.

So yeah, objective.

Again thank you for pointing it all out and for being so exact and neutral about it.

[Peter Mc]

People keep saying that - but there exists a audience sourced IEM matrix bootleg you can compare with, and if you overlay it, it's actually 95% identical. There are some sections where they've replaced what James sings with a better vocal take from another show (the benefit of recording every show with protools), and a few pitch corrections here and there, but for the most part its actually not corrected.

But there's a production mishap with recording that caused the vocals to have a phasing effect. People think "oh, there's something strange with James voice, it must be auto-tune", but it's actually a recording effect. It doesnt change the pitch at all - it adds a chorus-y, flanger-y effect on the vocal due to the way the vocals were recorded.

Recording effect? What kind of effect? What way of recording? With a chorus on the way in? Sorry Noxon, but you are far from being objective here. JLB doesn't sing like this and didn't sound that spot on last year. Yes, I've heard bootlegs. And yes, I've been to a gig on that tour. It is corrected far more than just "here and there". Every live release starting from Score is. Even if there's a production mishap on this recording - well, modulation effects or let's call them phase issues, because that's what it is, may cover pitch problems. Anyone saying James was good on that tour is either non-objective or has very little idea about what a great performance is. I also wish he maintained the power and sound he had. But why was he one of the greatest live performers and now he's not - that's a subject for voice teachers.

Wow, so anyone who disagrees with you is either biased or doesn't know what they're talking about?  Guess I must be a complete moron then because he was superb at the show I saw.

[Addy]

No, that's not what I meant. It's not about agreeing or disagreeing or whatever. It's about some of DT fans not willing to accept the fact that JLB's live performances are far from perfect. Guys, listen to him from the mid-90s or LSFNY (or even slightly-corrected Score) and then to last years performances. I mean, come on.

His pitch is 95% the same in the overlay. And modulation effects do not occur from pitch correction software - that's simply not how it works.

Good job on those overlays, Noxon! Regarding the pitch being the same 95% of the time - well, let me say I can hear more than 5% of problematic spots. But it's not only about the pitch. It's also the tone, rhythm, control, enunciation. If these are all right, slight correction won't destroy the release i.e. Score.

[ToT-147]

No, that's not what I meant. It's not about agreeing or disagreeing or whatever. It's about some of DT fans not willing to accept the fact that JLB's live performances are far from perfect. Guys, listen to him from the mid-90s or LSFNY (or even slightly-corrected Score) and then to last years performances. I mean, come on.

Is someone even claiming that LaBrie's voice is perfect nowadays?..

I think no one is saying that, and no one would think that if we want to explain a little better the labels that we're using.. I mean, what's "perfect" after all?.. What's "good" or "bad"?.. What's "spot on"??... Are we suddenly a jury that needs to judge the singer performances and robotically compare them with previous years?... Aren't we just fans of this band?..

And by this I don't mean at all that we cannot or should not dislike something about them (and even less about something that hasn't to do with the studio albums, which is the main way through which you like a band)... I mean that each one has an opinion, and the motive could be anything.. You may like a voice for not sounding so faithful to the original, or dislike it only for that very thing too; you may like or dislike a singer because he just try to do exactly what he does in the album, or if he adds extra melodies, etc.. Also, live performances are very special.. You're looking at the guy, and that changes a lot.. Who actually cares if he doesn't hit all the notes? (which are probably one of the hardest in music history!)..

Moreover, I have read/heard a lot of positive reactions to James' performances in the last five or six years, and they were mostly coming from people that knows a lot about music and have very good musical ear.. If you don't like his voice nowadays, that's fine, but do not think we don't have the right to feel different about it..

Personally speaking, actually, I still prefer his current voice (and this is the case since 2005) than his 90's voice.. But I know that's not a popular opinion, and I accept that.. It is how it is..

[erwinrafael]

No, that's not what I meant. It's not about agreeing or disagreeing or whatever. It's about some of DT fans not willing to accept the fact that JLB's live performances are far from perfect. Guys, listen to him from the mid-90s or LSFNY (or even slightly-corrected Score) and then to last years performances. I mean, come on.

His pitch is 95% the same in the overlay. And modulation effects do not occur from pitch correction software - that's simply not how it works.

Good job on those overlays, Noxon! Regarding the pitch being the same 95% of the time - well, let me say I can hear more than 5% of problematic spots. But it's not only about the pitch. It's also the tone, rhythm, control, enunciation. If these are all right, slight correction won't destroy the release i.e. Score.

You guys are not talking about the same thing. I don't think noxon has ever claimed that JLB sounded good in the Budokan (non)release. noxon was contesting the claim that there was horrible pitch correction done by Chycki for the unreleased video.

[arkdtmp]

I'm not sure if this is news, but I was lucky enough to talk to Jordan at the Al Di Meola show last weekend, and he said that there wasn't going to be an instrumental on the new album and that it was going to be much heavier (which we've heard a lot about).

[Bertielee]

I'm not sure if this is news, but I was lucky enough to talk to Jordan at the Al Di Meola show last weekend, and he said that there wasn't going to be an instrumental on the new album and that it was going to be much heavier (which we've heard a lot about).

No instrumental : now, that's new news.

B.Lee

[MirrorMask]

Moar stuff for James to sing

Hey, if there isn't an instrumental on the new album, maybe they'll bring back an older one in the tour.

[Another_Won]

I'm not sure if this is news, but I was lucky enough to talk to Jordan at the Al Di Meola show last weekend, and he said that there wasn't going to be an instrumental on the new album and that it was going to be much heavier (which we've heard a lot about).

No instrumental : now, that's new news.

B.Lee

That news is disappointing to me, but considering their last instrumental it's probably just as well.  I don't feel like EM was up to the same high bar they set with their other ones.  Still good overall though.

Honestly, having a heavier album was what I was hoping for most.  Very excited to hear it 

[IDontNotDoThings]

I'm not sure if this is news, but I was lucky enough to talk to Jordan at the Al Di Meola show last weekend, and he said that there wasn't going to be an instrumental on the new album and that it was going to be much heavier (which we've heard a lot about).

No instrumental : now, that's new news.

B.Lee

That news is disappointing to me, but considering their last instrumental it's probably just as well.  I don't feel like EM was up to the same high bar they set with their other ones.  Still good overall though.

Dystopian Overture?

[Pettor]

Heavy focus is nice but I also hope for cool song structures and nice grooves. That has been kinda missing since Portnoy left imo. It's gonna be interesting to see what it all comes down to and even if TA was a bit to mellow for me it had some huge improvements song composition wise over the bigger parts of the ADTOE and DT albums.

[Another_Won]

I'm not sure if this is news, but I was lucky enough to talk to Jordan at the Al Di Meola show last weekend, and he said that there wasn't going to be an instrumental on the new album and that it was going to be much heavier (which we've heard a lot about).

No instrumental : now, that's new news.

B.Lee

That news is disappointing to me, but considering their last instrumental it's probably just as well.  I don't feel like EM was up to the same high bar they set with their other ones.  Still good overall though.

Dystopian Overture?

That one is great but not a "traditional instrumental" if that makes sense.  It has themes to other songs and serves as a introduction to the whole album and doesn't just stand on it's own.

I'm comparing to Stream of Consciousness or Erotomania.  Those are "complete" songs by themselves with a good flow and a lead that servers as a subsitutue to vocals.  I like an instrumental that isn't just a regular song with the lyrics removed.

To me EM seemed like a regular song that they just didn't add lyrics to.  Again, good song, just not the same.

[Max Kuehnau]

Heavy focus is nice but I also hope for cool song structures and nice grooves. That has been kinda missing since Portnoy left imo. It's gonna be interesting to see what it all comes down to and even if TA was a bit to mellow for me it had some huge improvements song composition wise over the bigger parts of the ADTOE and DT albums.

The groove aspect was there on DT12 IMHO (or more specifically: the grooves and the interplay between Mike and JM, really lovely). I'm not against continuing that though. Not at all.

[RMGadelha]

I won't miss an instrumental that much if there's a long epic.

[Bertielee]

I won't miss an instrumental that much if there's a long epic.

I generally don't miss instrumentals as I prefer a proper song instead.

B.Lee

[Max Kuehnau]

I like instrumental pieces, but ADTOE has none of them and it's one of their best albums, so the absence of one doesn't mean the album is bad.

[ToT-147]

That one is great but not a "traditional instrumental" if that makes sense.  It has themes to other songs and serves as a introduction to the whole album and doesn't just stand on it's own.

I'm comparing to Stream of Consciousness or Erotomania.  Those are "complete" songs by themselves with a good flow and a lead that servers as a subsitutue to vocals.  I like an instrumental that isn't just a regular song with the lyrics removed.

To me EM seemed like a regular song that they just didn't add lyrics to.  Again, good song, just not the same.

I obviously know what you mean, but even those two instrumentals are not entirely standalone tracks... Along with TDoE, they do use (present and/or develop) other songs' main themes (The Silent Man, Vacant and several songs in Met pt 2 and Met pt 1 for the latter)...

But bummer for me.. I actually wrote in another thread the other day that an instrumental (maybe 7 minutes long and like some sort of redemption for the only "good" EM) would be nice to hear.. But yeah, whatever, hope the music is at least DT average; that alone would make for a great album...

[gzarruk]

Now someone else please go to another Al Di Meola/Jordan Rudess concert to ask him if there's a 20+ minute epic on the upcoming album!

[ToT-147]

Ikr 

[Another_Won]

That one is great but not a "traditional instrumental" if that makes sense.  It has themes to other songs and serves as a introduction to the whole album and doesn't just stand on it's own.

I'm comparing to Stream of Consciousness or Erotomania.  Those are "complete" songs by themselves with a good flow and a lead that servers as a substitute to vocals.  I like an instrumental that isn't just a regular song with the lyrics removed.

To me EM seemed like a regular song that they just didn't add lyrics to.  Again, good song, just not the same.

I obviously know what you mean, but even those two instrumentals are not entirely standalone tracks... Along with TDoE, they do use (present and/or develop) other songs' main themes (The Silent Man, Vacant and several songs in Met pt 2 and Met pt 1 for the latter)...

I didn't mention TDoE because of it's clear ties, although I feel it could stand alone.  As you mention the other two do have references, but I don't think they're so strong that they couldn't stand alone.  It really boils down to just personal preference and anyone can certainly feel different. 

Could I call Ytsejam a standalone instrumental track?    Now that I think about it, that one is probably the only one that doesn't have any ties.

[Peter Mc]

Maybe this should go in the "controversial thoughts about DT" thread but I'm not a huge fan of their instrumental tracks as a whole. There is the odd exception but, for example, I find Stream Of Consciousness way too long and repetitive, it's fairly dull to me. Not a huge fan of Erotomania, Enigma Machine, The Dance Of Eternity or YTSE Jam. Weirdly though, I absolutely love Liquid Tension Experiment so I know they are capable of instrumental excellence, just weirdly not into a lot of the DT ones.

[TAC]

But half of each LTE album is unlistenable. So I guess you could say that they are inconsistent.

Personally, I love Ytse Jam and TDOE. Erotomania too. But I am totally with you on SOC, and I'm not a huge fan of Enigma Machine.

[KevShmev]

But half of each LTE album is unlistenable. So I guess you could say that they are inconsistent.

You, sir, are drunk.

Both LTE albums rule from start to finish.

[SystematicThought]

I'm with TAC on this one. I just can't get into it. The only song I listen to is When The Water Breaks and even that one I skip through to get to the parts I like.

[Bertielee]

I'm with TAC on this one. I just can't get into it. The only song I listen to is When The Water Breaks and even that one I skip through to get to the parts I like.

I think the first LTE is great from start to finish, but I just couldn't get into the second. Don't know why.

B.Lee

[IDontNotDoThings]

The first LTE started great, but really dropped after Kindered Spirits. Freedom of Speech is ok, but I just find the rest boring.

I never listened to the second... :/

[Bertielee]

The first LTE started great, but really dropped after Kindered Spirits. Freedom of Speech is ok, but I just find the rest boring.

I never listened to the second... :/

Well, I find the second one to be too repetitive for my taste. For me, this kind of project is good just once. As for DT instrumentals, except SoC or EM that I don't like much, I find them interesting. It's simply that I'm not as into instrumental music as I once was so it may explain my preferring proper songs. And btw, DT songs already have enough space for instruments to shine, I don't feel they need to do instrumentals. But that is just my opinion.

B.Lee

[Fritzinger]

I'm also totally fine with no instrumental on the album. Enigma Machine was kewl, especially live, but I didn't miss an instrumental track on Dramatic Turn either.