Author Topic: What if MP and Derek both came back?  (Read 4289 times)

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Online goo-goo

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Re: What if MP and Derek both came back?
« Reply #35 on: May 30, 2018, 03:51:16 PM »
Who would be a candidate to replace JR assuming he decides to retire?
Keyboardist in this band sounds just like JR in places, particularly the solo at the end. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F65IQmP7lCk

I have their album. You guys should definitely check out Arch Echo. Fucking amazing stuff.
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Offline pg1067

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Re: What if MP and Derek both came back?
« Reply #36 on: May 30, 2018, 04:33:37 PM »
From the Berklee website alumni page:

In 1985, Dream Theater began as Majesty after longtime bandmates Petrucci and Myung arrived at Berklee in search of a drummer who was into progressive rock and metal. They heard Portnoy in a practice room and soon began jamming together. The trio would become the core of one of rock's most virtuosic and heavy bands. After leaving Berklee, the group added a vocalist and keyboard player and changed its name to Dream Theater. Current vocalist LaBrie is the band's third singer and the best fit. His agile voice snarls on the metal tune "The Dark Eternal Night" and then soars sweet and high on the power ballad "The Ministry of Lost Souls" (both from Systematic Chaos). The fleet-fingered Rudess, who joined in 1999 and replaced Berklee alumnus Derek Sherinian '84, is the band's third keyboard player (for more on Sherinian, see "Prepared to Handle Anything," page 13).

I guess you know best, you read a book and this could be wrong, but I was not misleading anyone. I truly always thought this was the actual history and that JP was in fact the mother of DT.

It seems to me that "a book" written and published with the band's approval and participation and which was based almost entirely on interviews with the then current and former band members is a more reliable source than an "alumni page" for a school of which, arguably, none of the band members are actually alumni (because they didn't graduate) and which they only attended for a few months.

Yes, Petrucci and Myung had been "bandmates" before going to Berklee, but whatever band may have existed before they went there effectively broke up as a result of them going there.

And, if JP is the "mother" (or, more accurately, JP and JM collectively), then MP is the "father," so the "my baby" comments were and are perfectly reasonable.
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Offline Madman Shepherd

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Re: What if MP and Derek both came back?
« Reply #37 on: May 30, 2018, 05:03:52 PM »
From the Berklee website alumni page:

In 1985, Dream Theater began as Majesty after longtime bandmates Petrucci and Myung arrived at Berklee in search of a drummer who was into progressive rock and metal. They heard Portnoy in a practice room and soon began jamming together. The trio would become the core of one of rock's most virtuosic and heavy bands. After leaving Berklee, the group added a vocalist and keyboard player and changed its name to Dream Theater. Current vocalist LaBrie is the band's third singer and the best fit. His agile voice snarls on the metal tune "The Dark Eternal Night" and then soars sweet and high on the power ballad "The Ministry of Lost Souls" (both from Systematic Chaos). The fleet-fingered Rudess, who joined in 1999 and replaced Berklee alumnus Derek Sherinian '84, is the band's third keyboard player (for more on Sherinian, see "Prepared to Handle Anything," page 13).

I guess you know best, you read a book and this could be wrong, but I was not misleading anyone. I truly always thought this was the actual history and that JP was in fact the mother of DT.

It seems to me that "a book" written and published with the band's approval and participation and which was based almost entirely on interviews with the then current and former band members is a more reliable source than an "alumni page" for a school of which, arguably, none of the band members are actually alumni (because they didn't graduate) and which they only attended for a few months.

Yes, Petrucci and Myung had been "bandmates" before going to Berklee, but whatever band may have existed before they went there effectively broke up as a result of them going there.

And, if JP is the "mother" (or, more accurately, JP and JM collectively), then MP is the "father," so the "my baby" comments were and are perfectly reasonable.

If John is the mother and Mike is the father then they're both in a weird sex cult that invites three different keyboard players, a bassist, and....


...or we could just stop with marriage analogies.   :'(

Offline bosk1

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Re: What if MP and Derek both came back?
« Reply #38 on: May 30, 2018, 05:13:03 PM »
:lol
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Offline Herrick

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Re: What if MP and Derek both came back?
« Reply #39 on: May 30, 2018, 05:13:58 PM »
In a band as "busy" (in a musical sense) as DT, having two drummers and two keyboard players would be absolutely ridiculous.

Agreed. I'm a little surprised the personal feelings people have against Portnoy & Sherinian are the primary reasons why they'd be against a reunion taking place. Even if there was never any bad blood or stupid online comments, I still wouldn't be too excited by the idea of Portnoy & Sherinian rejoining the band with Rudess & Mangini still in.

As far as Portnoy & Sherinian replacing Rudess & Mangini...I think that could be interesting. I can't make any predictions on how the music would turn out though.
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Offline AngelBack

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Re: What if MP and Derek both came back?
« Reply #40 on: May 30, 2018, 05:16:53 PM »
PG1067 you state the obvious and I don't disagree.  If I had the history wrong, I'm happy to learn.  I have not read Lifting Shadows and I read the Berklee account 15 years ago and always thought it accurate.  The Berklee account would seem to indicate JP and JM had the concept in mind and were looking for a drummer.  That is why it always bothered me that MP seemed to implicitly take the credit for being the impetus for starting the band.  It's really not all that important. 

And I know SetScott is one of the "cool" guys here and well connected.  I didn't appreciate being accused of spreading lies.  My posting style/history is certainly not one of bashing anyone and I am more goofy than anything. I would rather have had the opportunity to explain my comments than to be lectured.
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Offline bosk1

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Re: What if MP and Derek both came back?
« Reply #41 on: May 30, 2018, 05:38:04 PM »
I wouldn't worry about it.  I don't think you are really that far off.  And I think one of the reasons Scott reacted the way he did doesn't really have anything to do with you.
"The Supreme Court of the United States has descended from the disciplined legal reasoning of John Marshall and Joseph Story to the mystical aphorisms of the fortune cookie."

Offline KevShmev

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Re: What if MP and Derek both came back?
« Reply #42 on: May 30, 2018, 05:48:39 PM »
Right, Scotty has to keep up his rep as DTF's resident fact checker and Mike Portnoy's unofficial lawyer on this site. :P :biggrin:

Offline Peter Mc

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Re: What if MP and Derek both came back?
« Reply #43 on: May 30, 2018, 05:53:21 PM »
Whatever went down at college, by the time Dream Theater were formed, Mike was very much a member of the band so he is a founder member. In addition to that, from all accounts (mainly Mike himself but no one has ever disputed it) it was Portnoy who really worked his ass off to promote the band and get them off the ground. I think it’s generally accepted that without Mike’s efforts, the band would not be where they are today. Musically JP is probably the main composer but in pretty much every other respect Portnoy was the main man.

Offline Setlist Scotty

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Re: What if MP and Derek both came back?
« Reply #44 on: May 30, 2018, 06:23:09 PM »
And I know SetScott is one of the "cool" guys here and well connected.  I didn't appreciate being accused of spreading lies.  My posting style/history is certainly not one of bashing anyone and I am more goofy than anything. I would rather have had the opportunity to explain my comments than to be lectured.
Well, I apologize for coming off as heavy handed. But unfortunately there have been plenty of times that different ones will unfairly accuse MP of something due to speculation, and from my viewpoint, your post came off exactly that way. There's a reason why I have Blob's quote as my sig on all my posts...  ;)

That said, if you haven't read Lifting Shadows, by all means, do so. I'm sure there's plenty of details that even a longtime fan like yourself may not be aware of.
 
 
Whatever went down at college, by the time Dream Theater were formed, Mike was very much a member of the band so he is a founder member. In addition to that, from all accounts (mainly Mike himself but no one has ever disputed it) it was Portnoy who really worked his ass off to promote the band and get them off the ground. I think it’s generally accepted that without Mike’s efforts, the band would not be where they are today. Musically JP is probably the main composer but in pretty much every other respect Portnoy was the main man.
Exactly, which is why it's not wrong for MP to have referred to DT as his baby, marriage analogies be damned. 
As a basic rule, if you hate it, you must solely blame Portnoy. If it's good, then you must downplay MP's contribution to the band as not being important anyway, or claim he's just lying. It's the DTF way.

Offline Cool Chris

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Re: What if MP and Derek both came back?
« Reply #45 on: May 30, 2018, 06:52:45 PM »
Exactly, which is why it's not wrong for MP to have referred to DT as his baby, marriage analogies be damned. 

Yeah, it's wrong. Just because you are "the main man" doesn't mean you were the only one involved. Otherwise you would be "the only man."
"Nostalgia is just the ability to forget the things that sucked" - Nelson DeMille, 'Up Country'

Offline pcs90

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Re: What if MP and Derek both came back?
« Reply #46 on: May 30, 2018, 06:57:48 PM »
Who would be a candidate to replace JR assuming he decides to retire?
Keyboardist in this band sounds just like JR in places, particularly the solo at the end. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F65IQmP7lCk

I have their album. You guys should definitely check out Arch Echo. Fucking amazing stuff.

I second that. I literally just discovered them this past Monday. This is definitely my favorite track on the album, but there are lots of other great moments too...very well written and played!

Offline Setlist Scotty

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Re: What if MP and Derek both came back?
« Reply #47 on: May 30, 2018, 07:06:21 PM »
Just because you are "the main man" doesn't mean you were the only one involved. Otherwise you would be "the only man."
No one is arguing that the others were involved, but aside from JP, no where near the amount MP was. So given that he busted his ass in so many ways still means he has every right to refer to it as his baby.

I won't justify the way he handled things in September 2010, but that doesn't take away everything he put into the band up until that point.
As a basic rule, if you hate it, you must solely blame Portnoy. If it's good, then you must downplay MP's contribution to the band as not being important anyway, or claim he's just lying. It's the DTF way.

Offline TAC

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Re: What if MP and Derek both came back?
« Reply #48 on: May 30, 2018, 07:08:49 PM »
Right. Even though my wife had something to do with it, I still refer to my kids as......my kids. :lol
would have thought the same thing but seeing the OP was TAC i immediately thought Maiden or DT related
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Offline Setlist Scotty

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Re: What if MP and Derek both came back?
« Reply #49 on: May 30, 2018, 07:12:14 PM »
Right. Even though my wife had something to do with it, I still refer to my kids as......my kids. :lol
:biggrin:
As a basic rule, if you hate it, you must solely blame Portnoy. If it's good, then you must downplay MP's contribution to the band as not being important anyway, or claim he's just lying. It's the DTF way.

Offline pcs90

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Re: What if MP and Derek both came back?
« Reply #50 on: May 30, 2018, 07:13:43 PM »
Agree... I am not a fan of Portnoy and I definitely would not want him back. However, the amount of energy and time he put into DT over the years really cannot be denied. Either way you look at the history, he was basically there from the beginning.

Offline RaiseTheKnife

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Re: What if MP and Derek both came back?
« Reply #51 on: May 30, 2018, 08:09:38 PM »
I can't foresee a permanent change, but having Derek and MP join DT on an upcoming tour would be cool - they could rotate on and off stage with MM and JR for a various songs highlighting their respective contributions to the catalog - followed by an all-out jam encore where they all play on stage for a couple of tunes.

Any takers?

Online gzarruk

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Re: What if MP and Derek both came back?
« Reply #52 on: May 30, 2018, 08:19:54 PM »
I can't foresee a permanent change, but having Derek and MP join DT on an upcoming tour would be cool - they could rotate on and off stage with MM and JR for a various songs highlighting their respective contributions to the catalog - followed by an all-out jam encore where they all play on stage for a couple of tunes.

Any takers?

Definitely not.
It sounds like, "ruk, ruk, ruk, ruk, ruk." Instead of the more pleasing kick drum sound of, "gzarruk, gzarruk, gzarruk, gzarruk."

Offline Lethean

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Re: What if MP and Derek both came back?
« Reply #53 on: May 30, 2018, 08:22:06 PM »
I can't foresee a permanent change, but having Derek and MP join DT on an upcoming tour would be cool - they could rotate on and off stage with MM and JR for a various songs highlighting their respective contributions to the catalog - followed by an all-out jam encore where they all play on stage for a couple of tunes.

Any takers?

Not really.  Down the road for their last tour or something - maybe if they wanted to have all of the former members (who are willing) make a guest appearance, that's fine, but I don't really want it to happen either.

Offline KevShmev

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Re: What if MP and Derek both came back?
« Reply #54 on: May 30, 2018, 08:31:07 PM »
I can't foresee a permanent change, but having Derek and MP join DT on an upcoming tour would be cool - they could rotate on and off stage with MM and JR for a various songs highlighting their respective contributions to the catalog - followed by an all-out jam encore where they all play on stage for a couple of tunes.

Any takers?

Good grief. no.

Jordan Rudess and Mike Mangini are full-time members of the band. Why should they become part-time players for even a single show?  To make room for a guy who was fired 20 years ago and a guy who quit 8 years ago? Hell no.

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Re: What if MP and Derek both came back?
« Reply #55 on: May 30, 2018, 09:00:32 PM »
People are high Kev.

That is all.
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Offline SystematicThought

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Re: What if MP and Derek both came back?
« Reply #56 on: May 30, 2018, 09:06:38 PM »
MP on a special occasion, I wouldn't mind, to play a song or two. That would only be for a farewell show or something.

Derek though, he can stay away from the band. My interactions with him on Facebook soured me on him and his actions before Sons of Apollo released their album made me not even able to listen to his stuff. I don't think he even likes the guys in the band, so it wouldn't work
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Offline Adami

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Re: What if MP and Derek both came back?
« Reply #57 on: May 30, 2018, 09:07:51 PM »
I wouldn't mind DT doing what The Gathering did.

Basically playing a final show of their career and inviting back all their old members to join them on various tunes.
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Offline Cool Chris

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Re: What if MP and Derek both came back?
« Reply #58 on: May 30, 2018, 09:55:27 PM »
I wouldn't mind DT doing what The Gathering did.

Basically playing a final show of their career and inviting back all their old members to join them on various tunes.

Huh, never heard of a band doing that. Hope all the departures were on good terms.

As to the question at hand, I'll second the "Hell No" option.
"Nostalgia is just the ability to forget the things that sucked" - Nelson DeMille, 'Up Country'

Offline Adami

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Re: What if MP and Derek both came back?
« Reply #59 on: May 30, 2018, 09:56:43 PM »
I wouldn't mind DT doing what The Gathering did.

Basically playing a final show of their career and inviting back all their old members to join them on various tunes.

Huh, never heard of a band doing that. Hope all the departures were on good terms.

As to the question at hand, I'll second the "Hell No" option.

It seems at least most, if not all, of the departures were on good terms. I'm also not 100% it was ALL past members, but it was most of them at least. And old singers sang new songs, and the new singer sang old songs, and all three singers harmonized on other songs. It was a pitch perfect way to end a career.
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Online gzarruk

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Re: What if MP and Derek both came back?
« Reply #60 on: May 30, 2018, 10:01:46 PM »
I wouldn't mind DT doing what The Gathering did.

Basically playing a final show of their career and inviting back all their old members to join them on various tunes.

Do you mean they all gathered for that special event?






:splodetard:
It sounds like, "ruk, ruk, ruk, ruk, ruk." Instead of the more pleasing kick drum sound of, "gzarruk, gzarruk, gzarruk, gzarruk."

Offline Adami

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Re: What if MP and Derek both came back?
« Reply #61 on: May 30, 2018, 10:02:40 PM »
 :|
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Offline bl5150

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Re: What if MP and Derek both came back?
« Reply #62 on: May 30, 2018, 10:59:59 PM »
If JP got Derek involved to any real extent then I think he'd soon be gathering some singers to audition  :)
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Offline El Barto

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Re: What if MP and Derek both came back?
« Reply #63 on: May 31, 2018, 09:45:21 AM »
If JP got Derek involved to any real extent then I think he'd soon be gathering some singers to audition  :)
That applies more to MP than DS, but it's a very real consideration.

And the reason I'd love to see it happen. Indirectly you'd be improving 3 spots and it'd make the band interesting again. While I really do like JR and MM, I've made no bones about preferring the organic playing of Sherinian and the energy of Portnoy, nor my general dislike of JLB.
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Offline pg1067

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Re: What if MP and Derek both came back?
« Reply #64 on: May 31, 2018, 10:30:50 AM »
I can't foresee a permanent change, but having Derek and MP join DT on an upcoming tour would be cool - they could rotate on and off stage with MM and JR for a various songs highlighting their respective contributions to the catalog - followed by an all-out jam encore where they all play on stage for a couple of tunes.

Any takers?

Definitely not.

I wouldn't say definitely, but pretty close.  Would it be cool to see?  Sure.  Bring them all back...Chris, Charlie, Kevin, Derek, MP....  He'll bring Steve Stone back for one song for all I care.  Will it happen?  No.  Someone earlier in the thread hypothecized that it was certain that MP will come back at some point to sit in with the band on one or two songs (not rotating with MM) but that Derek never would.  I wouldn't necessarily agree it's certain that this will happen with MP, but I agree that it's reasonably likely.  I also agree that there's little to no chance of something like that with Derek.  At the end of the day, Derek was a relatively insignificant blip on DT's radar, and he has already been brought back (for WDaDRu).  That's enough.  I also feel like MP was the guy who was pushing to do things like this.  Since JP is essentially the captain at this point, I don't think things like this will be high on his priority list.
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Offline Cool Chris

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Re: What if MP and Derek both came back?
« Reply #65 on: May 31, 2018, 10:41:13 AM »
Indirectly you'd be improving 3 spots and it'd make the band interesting again. While I really do like JR and MM, I've made no bones about preferring the organic playing of Sherinian and the energy of Portnoy, nor my general dislike of JLB.

I don't agree with your assessment but I appreciate how you laid it out without sounding all "MP GOOD MM BAD!" I miss the energy of MP in concert but that doesn't outweigh me not missing the growls and other crappy vocal melodies and musical direction choices he spearheaded.

Sort of branching out from here, at some point though, when does a band stop being a group of guys and become a revolving door for new and younger talent. It's not like a sports team, when players retire or are canned due to age and diminishing returns. You could conceivably do that with a band, replace James with a younger vocalist with a stronger voice for improved live performances for example, but to me that takes away from what a band is trying to be.
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Re: What if MP and Derek both came back?
« Reply #66 on: May 31, 2018, 12:03:13 PM »
If JP got Derek involved to any real extent then I think he'd soon be gathering some singers to audition  :)
That applies more to MP than DS, but it's a very real consideration.

And the reason I'd love to see it happen. Indirectly you'd be improving 3 spots and it'd make the band interesting again. While I really do like JR and MM, I've made no bones about preferring the organic playing of Sherinian and the energy of Portnoy, nor my general dislike of JLB.

You bet! I guess half of your 20000ish posts are about that…

Kidding of course...just 15000! :biggrin:

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Offline Architeuthis

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Re: What if MP and Derek both came back?
« Reply #67 on: May 31, 2018, 12:15:24 PM »
Indirectly you'd be improving 3 spots and it'd make the band interesting again. While I really do like JR and MM, I've made no bones about preferring the organic playing of Sherinian and the energy of Portnoy, nor my general dislike of JLB.

I don't agree with your assessment but I appreciate how you laid it out without sounding all "MP GOOD MM BAD!" I miss the energy of MP in concert but that doesn't outweigh me not missing the growls and other crappy vocal melodies and musical direction choices he spearheaded.

Sort of branching out from here, at some point though, when does a band stop being a group of guys and become a revolving door for new and younger talent. It's not like a sports team, when players retire or are canned due to age and diminishing returns. You could conceivably do that with a band, replace James with a younger vocalist with a stronger voice for improved live performances for example, but to me that takes away from what a band is trying to be.
YES has been a revolving door type of band for years. Now that they don't have Jon Anderson, I pretty much quit following them. Now if the other incarnation of YES stays together (Anderson, Rabin, Wakeman) I will definitely follow them.
 If JLB wasn't in DT anymore, I might still follow them but not with as much enthusiasm..
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Offline El Barto

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Re: What if MP and Derek both came back?
« Reply #68 on: May 31, 2018, 12:18:46 PM »
If JP got Derek involved to any real extent then I think he'd soon be gathering some singers to audition  :)
That applies more to MP than DS, but it's a very real consideration.

And the reason I'd love to see it happen. Indirectly you'd be improving 3 spots and it'd make the band interesting again. While I really do like JR and MM, I've made no bones about preferring the organic playing of Sherinian and the energy of Portnoy, nor my general dislike of JLB.

You bet! I guess half of your 20000ish posts are about that…

Kidding of course...just 15000! :biggrin:

B.Lee
Of the 20k posts probably only 100 of them have been DT related. But 100% of those have been "Yeah! Portnoy/Booo! JLB!"  :lol
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Re: What if MP and Derek both came back?
« Reply #69 on: May 31, 2018, 12:52:15 PM »
If JP got Derek involved to any real extent then I think he'd soon be gathering some singers to audition  :)
That applies more to MP than DS, but it's a very real consideration.

And the reason I'd love to see it happen. Indirectly you'd be improving 3 spots and it'd make the band interesting again. While I really do like JR and MM, I've made no bones about preferring the organic playing of Sherinian and the energy of Portnoy, nor my general dislike of JLB.

You bet! I guess half of your 20000ish posts are about that…

Kidding of course...just 15000! :biggrin:

B.Lee
Of the 20k posts probably only 100 of them have been DT related. But 100% of those have been "Yeah! Portnoy/Booo! JLB!"  :lol

 :lol
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