Author Topic: Social media: The Death Knell of Society  (Read 1051 times)

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Offline Harmony

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Social media: The Death Knell of Society
« on: May 14, 2018, 02:11:23 PM »
Bringing this discussion here so people will stop ragging on Stadler for sucking the fun out of threads.

Should they be ashamed of using social media or ashamed of disrobing in their own home?   :huh:

Oh, it is very clearly about the social media.  I think - and it's hyperbole, but not nearly as much as you might, or want to, think - that social media will be the the death knell of a free society.

There was a great line in the recent Supergirl; something happened and they got information from social media and one of the women from the future said "what is this 'social media'?" and her husband - also from the future but who lived for a spell in Supergirl's time - said "Oh, don't worry about it; it was a fad, and a short one at that."   One can only hope.

I'm going to have to push back a little - respectfully.  I'm not saying social media is the best thing that ever happened to humans but I'm pretty sure 'death knell of a free society' has also been used to describe talkies, television, Elvis' swinging hips, and video games.  Yet somehow, we are surviving.

Just out of curiosity though - how is posting something on Twitter or FB all that much different than posting on a chat board?  Do you suppose that some of the same motivations you have for posting here could be applied to others choosing to post things on other forms of on-line media?

Now I have this song in my head:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z0GFRcFm-aY

 :lol

Couple things:  one, the fact that there is some "hyperbole" in here has been clearly acknowledged, so there's that.   Two, I do see a difference between social media and a chat board; though we are not talking about massive, transcendent differences. we are talking about differences.  Scope for one.  Depth for another.  We don't "trend" here.  We're not "liked" here. There's not a commerce aspect to here.  There's no "branding" - except for Jingle; he's got a new line of athleticwear coming out. 

Perhaps it's anecdotal and not real, but I don't get any sense that the participants here are using this as a mirror to reinforce their beliefs and self-esteem.  We had to have the "just because you CAN, doesn't mean you SHOULD" conversation with my stepdaughter this weekend.  She's 19 and struggling with the "what does "adult" really mean?" concept.  With her, it's weed and staying out late and things like that, but I think that concept is there with social media as well.   

Talkies, television, Elvis' hips and video games were all one-way communications.  They didn't promote "mob rule". Social media is unique in that it is two-way, but more importantly, it starts in the other direction.   A very wise philosopher, one of the best, once said "If you listen to fools, the mob rules!"    I think he was right.   

But that wasn't the point of what I said.  I agree that talkies, t.v., Elvis' hips, and video games are one-way communications (arguably) but the point was that people said of those things that they would be the end of civilization when they first came about and yet they didn't.

I started this thread in the hopes that we can expand on this notion of yours that social media is all about "mob rules" with seemingly no other benefit to society.

I'd also love to continue to discuss the reasons why people engage in social media and how those reasons compare or not to posting on a chat board.  You said in your post "scope" and "depth" can you elaborate on that?  Please rest assured I understand the limitations of Twitter to a certain number of characters but people do easily work around that.  I also get that we don't technically "like" each others posts in the same way here, but I think we still do in other ways that may be less apparent.  I'd argue the lack of commerce aspect.  Fan boards tend to support the artist, no?  Nothing wrong with that, but lurkers can pick up on the hype surrounding new music and therefore may opt to purchase products related to the band.

But what interests me more is the human nature aspect of social media and why all of us here willingly participate in it - more or less.  I think reasons why may vary from user to user but that it essentially boils down to a couple of basic things.  I'll keep my opinion to myself for now as to what those reasons are to see if others reach the same conclusions as I do.  Or maybe I'll completely change my opinion after reading the replies, who knows?!   :smiley:







Offline Stadler

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Re: Social media: The Death Knell of Society
« Reply #1 on: May 14, 2018, 10:17:17 PM »
Haha, I can't see it stopping anytime soon. :)

First, I don't think there's NO other benefit to society, but much like oxycontin, I think the benefits aren't necessarily outweighed by the downsides.  Or more correctly, we're apparently ignoring the downsides right now so any benefit is going to be outweighed by whatever the negative boomerang is.

Second.  I want to think about this and not give you a snarky, off the cuff answer, so I reserve the right to add to this, but at first blush I think that for all the "communication" and "connection" that is supposedly on social media, there's a decided LACK of real willingness to ACTUALLY communicate.  To dig in and understand that person you're snarkily throwing quippy hashtags at.   I know - though I don't participate in them - that there are communities on Facebook, and I imagine there is something similar on Twitter, but there is also the impersonal, almost "comment section" anonymity of the "regular" Facebook and Twitter that I think is a critical MISSING piece in any real dialogue. 

There's a vested interest in keeping voices here respected, more or less.  Certainly Bosk will step in, but there are other mods as well, and even some of the lay people have been known to sort of "hey, don't make me tell mom and dad!" the place to a degree.  Not perfect, and there are certainly people who I think are too big for their britches, but we coexist.  You couldn't - and I think this is a fantastic thing - get away with half the shit that gets gotten away with on Twitter.  I had the temerity to push back - politely but firmly - on some bullshit in the aftermath of the ruling for the gymnasts against Larry Nasser and while I was so far in the right as to it not even being debatable, and I got several hundred likes which were more or less akin to receiving nice little butterfly kisses from Charlize Theron in terms of my ego, I got a couple of - public - responses that were beyond the pale.  I mean, I wouldn't say that shit to my best friend as an ironic joke let alone to a perfect stranger who made a reasonable even if disagreeable point on a very public, very well-known matter in the news. 

As to your third question, I want to do like you and wait, but if we all wait, there will be no one to answer!!  I think it's massive, crippling insecurity.  We are so starved for self-affirmation that we get it any way we can.  Add that instant reinforcement that "YOUR OPINION MATTERS!" (even if it doesn't) to a relative anonymity that we can then fill in ourselves (I got liked by Stallion420!  I just KNOW he's a genius who looks like Matt Bomer, but isn't gay and is so sensitive that he can look past and see the real woman in me screaming to get out!). Not to suggest at all that this is a female/male phenomenon; I met my wife on Match, but even before that I went on a couple dates, and I was STUNNED at how much positive press I got simply because I DIDN'T send a picture of my unit before the first date. 

I don't mean to make jokes, Harmony, but I'm trying to keep it reasonably entertaining.   When you have politics that involve the economy - a global economy - worth $20 TRILLION dollars, and is responsible for the wellbeing of 325 million people and covers almost 4 million square miles of land, to say that none of us REALLY have a handle on how the country works is an understatement.  And yet, we persevere with our ideas on taxes, guns, free school, healthcare, whether we're right or not and if we get pushback, rather than self-contemplate and revise our precious opinions, we just troll the haters and block them from ever harassing our mellow ever again. 

It's a recipe for disaster.  When you're singling out your clique based not on "who is MOST correct here" but on "who agrees with me MOST" you're destined to live in a vacuum.  You WILL NOT be better tomorrow than you were today, by definition. 

Offline Harmony

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Re: Social media: The Death Knell of Society
« Reply #2 on: May 15, 2018, 09:00:27 AM »
There is a lot to unpack here.  I hope other people will jump into the conversation.

First off, I happen to agree with you that there are downsides to social media that seem to be ignored and I struggle with this with my own kids and their friends who seem to want/need to be connected 24/7.  Too much of something is never a good thing.  Well maybe not peace, but you get my drift.  And you are hitting on this in your next paragraph.  Social media can impact people's willingness to connect on a face to face level.  Not always and maybe not even for most.  But certainly for some.  But even this is a two-way street.  For example people who have disabilities that make getting out and about difficult to impossible, social media can be life-changing for them.  And that's just but one example.

Your point about moderation is noted.  But I'd also suggest that there are many who do not understand how to utilize the tools they have to control their feeds at their disposal.  Once you understand how that works, it isn't terribly difficult to weed out the noise.  Let me give you an analogy.  Ever been to a giant buffet?  One that has literally hundreds of dishes to choose from?  Are you going to taste every single dish or are you going to pick and choose?  Social media is like a giant buffet.  If you don't limit your choices, you are probably going to spend most of your next day in the toilet.  We learn this like kids in a candy store or 21 year olds at their first bar.  Some people learn the lesson quickly, others never learn.  But we all have choices.

I'm curious about when you say the allure is, "massive, crippling insecurity" if you are aware that probably the majority of people who post here also post on other forms of social media.  Do you think we are all suffering from "massive, crippling insecurity"?  Would it surprise you to know that I have close friends who lurk on social media and never post anything?  Like not one thing in 10 years?  Do musical artists that you admire who use social media to promote their shows, do they have "massive, crippling insecurity" for doing so?  How about people who look to social media for traffic jams or weather alerts or amber alerts?  Would it surprise you to know that social media has literally saved lives?

I agree with you that Twitter isn't the best place to discuss the global economy or world politics.  But find your way to some of those groups you've heard about and real discussions are taking place there that are not unlike the discussions taking place here.  And many are moderated to ensure keeping voices respected.  I've had an opportunity to completely change my thinking on several issues by simply reading posts by people who are experts in their fields explain the intricacies of a given topic.  And it is certainly more interactive than reading a book or a science journal.

And you did hit on one of the reasons why I believe people engage on social media, though it is hardly the only reason.  Ego strokes.  But that happens here too.  Maybe not on as large of a scale but ask yourself why you take the time to engage in discussions here.  Isn't even a little bit of it to be able to perhaps change the way someone thinks about a topic you are passionate about?  To have your words, thoughts, and ideas considered and discussed - and occasionally mocked in good natured fun?  When we are with our pals here and we tell a good joke and get a good laugh, doesn't that feel good?  Isn't it the same feeling in a good discussion?  Isn't that a bit like "nice little butterfly kisses from Charlize Theron"?

I guess I'm having a bit of a hard time buying the notion that one-size fits all when it comes to people on social media.  People get out of it what they put into it.  Just like in life.  If you embrace the world with an f-you attitude, you are going to get that back.  The extremes of any spectrum are going to get the attention, that is nothing unique to social media.  You learn how to move past the jello salad filled with shredded carrots and concentrate on the baby back ribs and the baked beans and coleslaw.  Or whatever it is that floats your boat in the smorgasbord of life.




Offline Stadler

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Re: Social media: The Death Knell of Society
« Reply #3 on: May 15, 2018, 10:47:57 AM »
There is a lot to unpack here.  I hope other people will jump into the conversation.

First off, I happen to agree with you that there are downsides to social media that seem to be ignored and I struggle with this with my own kids and their friends who seem to want/need to be connected 24/7.  Too much of something is never a good thing.  Well maybe not peace, but you get my drift.  And you are hitting on this in your next paragraph.  Social media can impact people's willingness to connect on a face to face level.  Not always and maybe not even for most.  But certainly for some.  But even this is a two-way street.  For example people who have disabilities that make getting out and about difficult to impossible, social media can be life-changing for them.  And that's just but one example.

Of course your last example is spot on, and no argument.   But I think of the exchanges that my kids have.   My oldest (stepson) is 24, and is kind of limited to snapchats of his kid and what not, but the 19-year-old and 17-year-old... the bullying that goes on on social media, the stuff that is said that would  NEVER, in a MILLION years ever be said face-to-face, it's staggering.  When I was growing up, my dad NEVER let me stay over people's houses.   EVER (it was his thing).  Because of that, and my curfew, I never really got to go to any of the cooler parties.   Not important what they are, but there were two or three "events" growing up that happened at parties, and even though my friends were there, I wasn't.   Some were sort of dicks about it, but most weren't.  Now?  My daughter didn't go to a party because she was upset at her boyfeiend, and the next day there's snapgrams and instachats of other girls mocking her and throwing gang fingers or whatever the fuck the kids call it, calling her a loser for not going... wha?  Now it's not just the close friends that know she wasn't there, but the whole world, basically. And none of the "world" know that she didn't go because her boyfriend was balling on the side and she didn't feel up to putting on the show for him.   How does a teenager deal with that?  Doesn't take an advanced Google search to know that some kids are dealing with it via weed, depression and anti-anxiety pills, it seems.   It's not just kids either; don't want to share too much, but her GRANDMOTHER even got into the act, shaming her on Facebook for not fostering the relationship with her (grandma is dead wrong and has other issues, but still that just makes it worse, because few others know of THOSE things, and my daughter isn't about to "out" her grandma).    Just one example, I know, but there are far more episodes that border on that than that move the ball forward in terms of teaching how to interact with others in an effective way. 

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Your point about moderation is noted.  But I'd also suggest that there are many who do not understand how to utilize the tools they have to control their feeds at their disposal.  Once you understand how that works, it isn't terribly difficult to weed out the noise.  Let me give you an analogy.  Ever been to a giant buffet?  One that has literally hundreds of dishes to choose from?  Are you going to taste every single dish or are you going to pick and choose?  Social media is like a giant buffet.  If you don't limit your choices, you are probably going to spend most of your next day in the toilet.  We learn this like kids in a candy store or 21 year olds at their first bar.  Some people learn the lesson quickly, others never learn.  But we all have choices.

Of course we do; but isn't that sort of the problem?   Aren't there almost TOO MANY choices?   Do you really think that's a good thing?   Say you're a conservative; do you think it's a good thing that all you listen/watch is Fox News?   I almost think it's TOO easy to weed out the noise.  Life is about dealing with the noise.    It's a perpetuating thing, too; when you're preaching to the choir, you don't have to watch  your tongue, so you lose the responsibility of tailoring your message to those that not only buy into it hook line and sinker, but also to those that don't want anything that you're selling, AND those that are on the fence.  Sean Hannity doesn't give f*** one about the people that aren't lapping up his nonsense like water at an oasis.   I'm slightly off topic here, but it translates; life ISN'T always a buffet.  Our politics is not a buffet.  Our families are not buffets. 

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I'm curious about when you say the allure is, "massive, crippling insecurity" if you are aware that probably the majority of people who post here also post on other forms of social media.  Do you think we are all suffering from "massive, crippling insecurity"?  Would it surprise you to know that I have close friends who lurk on social media and never post anything?  Like not one thing in 10 years?  Do musical artists that you admire who use social media to promote their shows, do they have "massive, crippling insecurity" for doing so?  How about people who look to social media for traffic jams or weather alerts or amber alerts?  Would it surprise you to know that social media has literally saved lives?

Of course I'm aware.   Let me clarify; it's a necessity to at least be aware.  I'm not suggesting that people live under a rock. I used to post a lot over at MP.com and I went there the first time to learn about Mike and his band at the time (you might have heard of them: Dream Theater).   Partly because he shut his forum down and partly to be entertained by the Game Show Host In Chief, I opened a Twitter account.   I use it, like your friends, to get information.  I don't want to be in a vacuum.   I'm talking more about the people for whom it's become a crutch.  Who use it as a weapon, of sorts.  The people who don't really offer much - that I see - in terms of a meaningful discussion, but always seem to be there with the quippy response to things that aren't a neat fit in their perfect little world.  I don't need to give you examples; you've probably seen 10 of them on your own already today.   You know what I mean; the people that communicate in memes.   The people that communicate in hashtags.   Harmony, how do you expect to be able to even partially relate the depth of a $20 Trillion economy, or a complicated 20 year marriage, or whatever topic you want to discuss, using an emoji?   

But we do.  And that emoji is now our "opinion", and it is EXPECTED that it command respect.  What, exactly, though, was done to deserve that respect?  Did they put in the work to get an MBA to understand that economy?  I don't think so.   On a more basic level, why else would someone broadcast the most intimate and mundane aspects of their otherwise mundane and ordinary lives?   To bolster their self-esteem is one answer.   The data tends to support this: https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/nurturing-self-compassion/201703/mental-health-and-the-effects-social-media.   

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I agree with you that Twitter isn't the best place to discuss the global economy or world politics.  But find your way to some of those groups you've heard about and real discussions are taking place there that are not unlike the discussions taking place here.  And many are moderated to ensure keeping voices respected.  I've had an opportunity to completely change my thinking on several issues by simply reading posts by people who are experts in their fields explain the intricacies of a given topic.  And it is certainly more interactive than reading a book or a science journal.

I have  no doubt that there are places of fertile discussion.  With the sheer numbers of people, I imagine the level of discourse is rather high.  And I applaud you (sincerely) for being open enough to challenge your own thinking.  I hear far more often "nothing you can say will make me change my mind" than I do "hey, I'm open to new data that fleshes out my thinking".   Perhaps because normal people don't say "fleshes out my thinking" very often.  Haha.   Those, however, are not the pieces of dialogue that get embedded in the latest article telling us how stupid/wrong/bigoted/misogynistic our President is, though (and this is not about Trump, he's just the most polarizing example I can think of that isn't trivial, like Kanye West). 

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And you did hit on one of the reasons why I believe people engage on social media, though it is hardly the only reason.  Ego strokes.  But that happens here too.  Maybe not on as large of a scale but ask yourself why you take the time to engage in discussions here.  Isn't even a little bit of it to be able to perhaps change the way someone thinks about a topic you are passionate about?  To have your words, thoughts, and ideas considered and discussed - and occasionally mocked in good natured fun?  When we are with our pals here and we tell a good joke and get a good laugh, doesn't that feel good?  Isn't it the same feeling in a good discussion?  Isn't that a bit like "nice little butterfly kisses from Charlize Theron"?

But see my link.   I know for me, I can't get too big a head, because Jingle, Dave and el barto wouldn't have any of that.  Be it in the forum, in PM, or even, rarely, in real life, we've evolved to where any one of those (and there are others, but this isn't an Academy acceptance speech) can and do say "Dude, tone it the f*** down."  And I truly and honestly believe they would do that with at least SOME degree of looking out for my well-beign as opposed to "scoring points".   Do you really think that "TrumpH8R" is really interested in any of that?  Or "ObamasaKenyan476"? 

For me, I'm weird.  I know it, I've embraced it, and I'm comfortable in my 50 year old skin.  I honestly and truly believe that we as humans HAVE to incorporate all the information we have into our thinking.  I can't pick and choose data that doesn't fit my pet worldview.   I'm not perfect - at all - in always doing that, but it's the goal.  I post here as much for myself as I do for others.  I don't always radically change my opinion, but when Jingle throws something out there, I can't ignore it.  When Dave - who lives in a society that in some ways is RADICALLY different than the one I do - offers something up, I HAVE to account for it.   I HAVE to.  I will admit to some level of hope - I think anyone with an interest in community has SOME of this - that someone else can get something from what I write, because while I can't shoot a basketball for shit, and my guitar playing is barely Kiss-rhythm guitar level, I do have SOME insight into many of the things I write about.

And yes.  I'm loathe to equate it to something as close to my heart as butterfly kisses from Charlize, but yes, when I get called "old man" in the music threads there is a level of... satisfaction, maybe?... that is positive. 

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I guess I'm having a bit of a hard time buying the notion that one-size fits all when it comes to people on social media.  People get out of it what they put into it.  Just like in life.  If you embrace the world with an f-you attitude, you are going to get that back.  The extremes of any spectrum are going to get the attention, that is nothing unique to social media.  You learn how to move past the jello salad filled with shredded carrots and concentrate on the baby back ribs and the baked beans and coleslaw.  Or whatever it is that floats your boat in the smorgasbord of life.

Respectfully, you SHOULD have a hard time.  I don't at all mean to say that one-size-fits-all.   My wife has a level of interaction with her grandchild through social media that she would never have otherwise.  She gets these little 10 second videos of him farting and laughing and making faces and it completely makes her day.  When her/our son was in the Army and deployed, social media was a valuable connection for her, and his girlfriend became an active contributor on the "WAG" Facebook pages.   It's been a noticeable help for them in dealing with the life of an American soldier.   I have no problem with any of that; in fact, just the opposite.   I mean, I have my doubts about that kid seeing the back of a phone all day long, but one battle at a time. I'm talking more about my neighbor:  I have met her maybe three times, all three times with her phone in her hand.  In fact, even the times I just see her come in and out, ALWAYS with a phone in her hand.   Out shoveling one night, and every 30 seconds, a minute, I see the glow of the phone while she's shoveling.   I'm talking about the 20-year-old who doesn't know a T-bill from a T-Bird offering his two cents in the form of "#tRump" (get it?  Small t, big R, small u, m, p.  Rump?  Another word for 'ass'?) as insightful political commentary. 

Offline Stadler

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Re: Social media: The Death Knell of Society
« Reply #4 on: May 15, 2018, 11:22:49 AM »
One other point we didn't mention yet, inspired by this article:  http://www.msn.com/en-us/movies/news/cannes-lars-von-triers-disgusting-torturous-film-sparks-walkouts/ar-AAxhf6v?ocid=ientp

Time.

Sometimes it's not always best to be able to vent raw emotions in real time.   Sometimes a filter is a good thing, and sometimes it takes time for that filter to kick in.  Look at the second tweet in the article.  "Actors culpable".  What does that even mean?   I don't think it's the worst thing in the world to have to wait to communicate your emotions.  If they are so powerful, then find the means to express them.  That's what we do.  That's the beauty of a Bruce Springsteen or a Bono, and why they aren't "us".    None of the "dramatic flourishes" that have dominated reality TV, none of the basic, raw language that is more crude than clear, but just well crafted poignant emotional communication. 

Offline Harmony

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Re: Social media: The Death Knell of Society
« Reply #5 on: May 15, 2018, 04:16:44 PM »
My daughter didn't go to a party because she was upset at her boyfeiend, and the next day there's snapgrams and instachats of other girls mocking her and throwing gang fingers or whatever the fuck the kids call it, calling her a loser for not going... wha?  Now it's not just the close friends that know she wasn't there, but the whole world, basically. And none of the "world" know that she didn't go because her boyfriend was balling on the side and she didn't feel up to putting on the show for him.   How does a teenager deal with that?  Doesn't take an advanced Google search to know that some kids are dealing with it via weed, depression and anti-anxiety pills, it seems.   It's not just kids either; don't want to share too much, but her GRANDMOTHER even got into the act, shaming her on Facebook for not fostering the relationship with her (grandma is dead wrong and has other issues, but still that just makes it worse, because few others know of THOSE things, and my daughter isn't about to "out" her grandma).    Just one example, I know, but there are far more episodes that border on that than that move the ball forward in terms of teaching how to interact with others in an effective way. 

Cyber bullying is definitely a problem and I'm sorry that your daughter is experiencing that.  Bullying and peer pressure are landmines that we as a society have had to look at for a long time - long before people had computers.  How did we navigate those waters back then?  It is our job as parents to prepare our kids to manage in the world when they become adults.  I guess we need to add social media navigation and management to that long list of things we need to teach them about.

FWIW, I've blocked family members from my social media pages.  I've not accepted friend requests from people who I know from past experience to be shit-stirrers.  Your daughter may not know she can "snooze" or "mute" or "block" grandma on her social media accounts and that may be a conversation you should have with her.  Give her permission to manage her account so that she's not having to deal with grandma's issues.  Maybe - just maybe - grandma will get the message.

I'm talking more about the people for whom it's become a crutch.  Who use it as a weapon, of sorts.  The people who don't really offer much - that I see - in terms of a meaningful discussion, but always seem to be there with the quippy response to things that aren't a neat fit in their perfect little world.  I don't need to give you examples; you've probably seen 10 of them on your own already today.   You know what I mean; the people that communicate in memes.   The people that communicate in hashtags.   Harmony, how do you expect to be able to even partially relate the depth of a $20 Trillion economy, or a complicated 20 year marriage, or whatever topic you want to discuss, using an emoji?   

But we do.  And that emoji is now our "opinion", and it is EXPECTED that it command respect.  What, exactly, though, was done to deserve that respect?  Did they put in the work to get an MBA to understand that economy?  I don't think so.

Those are the people I was suggesting we can weed out of our social media lives - not simply because we disagree with them but because emojis aren't opinions and just because someone has access to the internet doesn't make them experts on any given subject.  I'm a little confused about an emoji being "EXPECTED" to command respect.  I've not seen that.  And if someone suggested that to me, I'd have a nice laugh and block them for being a complete idiot.

On a more basic level, why else would someone broadcast the most intimate and mundane aspects of their otherwise mundane and ordinary lives?   To bolster their self-esteem is one answer.   The data tends to support this: https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/nurturing-self-compassion/201703/mental-health-and-the-effects-social-media.   

Hey, that's a good article that talks about how to manage social media in a healthy way.  I agree with the suggestions listed.

As to why people need to broadcast intimate and mundane aspects of their ordinary lives, I'd ask mundane to who?  You've posted about how social media allows your wife to see her grandson and that she enjoys this.  I'm sure someone on this board would find that a mundane and ordinary waste of time.  Who are they to judge?  If they don't want to see it, they don't have to.  Scrolling is a great thing to learn how to do.  I put it right up there with averting our eyes when we don't want to see a naked person walking around in their own home.  It takes absolutely zero effort and serves a valuable purpose.

But see my link.   I know for me, I can't get too big a head, because Jingle, Dave and el barto wouldn't have any of that.  Be it in the forum, in PM, or even, rarely, in real life, we've evolved to where any one of those (and there are others, but this isn't an Academy acceptance speech) can and do say "Dude, tone it the f*** down."  And I truly and honestly believe they would do that with at least SOME degree of looking out for my well-beign as opposed to "scoring points".   Do you really think that "TrumpH8R" is really interested in any of that?  Or "ObamasaKenyan476"?

I don't care what TrumpH8R or ObamasaKenyan476 have to say because I know how to scroll and block.    ;)

I honestly and truly believe that we as humans HAVE to incorporate all the information we have into our thinking.  I can't pick and choose data that doesn't fit my pet worldview.
   

I'm not suggesting that you do.  I'm suggesting that if you want to have dialogue on social media that brings you more information and brings you more data from outside of your worldview, you can get there.  You just have to be discerning and that is not a bad thing to learn how to be.  That is something worthwhile to teach our children how to do.

I'm talking more about my neighbor:  I have met her maybe three times, all three times with her phone in her hand.  In fact, even the times I just see her come in and out, ALWAYS with a phone in her hand.   Out shoveling one night, and every 30 seconds, a minute, I see the glow of the phone while she's shoveling.   I'm talking about the 20-year-old who doesn't know a T-bill from a T-Bird offering his two cents in the form of "#tRump" (get it?  Small t, big R, small u, m, p.  Rump?  Another word for 'ass'?) as insightful political commentary.

Well I can only control myself and hopefully impact my children's on-line habits.  You can't control your neighbor or the 20 year old offering his 2 cents on the internet.  Welcome to the club.  But there are diamonds out there in the rough if you are willing to weed through the noise to get there.  I completely understand why someone would choose not to engage at all and I respect that decision.  But I still don't see social media as all or even mostly negative.  I see it as a tool that has a fairly steep learning curve to get to the point where one feels more comfortable with it.  I see it as entertainment.  I see it as information.  I see it as a challenge.  I see it as an inevitable part of the global community.

Online Nekov

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Re: Social media: The Death Knell of Society
« Reply #6 on: May 16, 2018, 06:57:50 AM »
I'm gonna chip in and use the same arguments Stadler uses to defend guns. Most of this is in line with what Harmony is saying I think.

Social media is a tool that can be used for both good things and bad things. It allows people to connect to other people over great distances. It allows people to get vast amounts of information about things they are interested in.
It allows for small companies and ventures to reach people through publicity in a much cheaper and effective way, thus creating a sort of balance with big companies who have a massive budget to do this the traditional way.
It allows for bands to publicize themselves in a way they couldn't have done before and start giving Indy bands and not so popular bands a chance to be heard and reach the public.
It allows for news to be spread even when big media corporations don't want to broadcast them on TV, radio or whatever.

It also allows for all the bad things you mentioned before.

Now, is this a matter of the tool being bad or a matter of the people not being educated enough to use it wisely? As I said before, Stads argument against guns is that guns are not the problem, but that there is a deeper problem within society that needs to be fixed and I think the this is the same case.

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Of course your last example is spot on, and no argument.   But I think of the exchanges that my kids have.   My oldest (stepson) is 24, and is kind of limited to snapchats of his kid and what not, but the 19-year-old and 17-year-old... the bullying that goes on on social media, the stuff that is said that would  NEVER, in a MILLION years ever be said face-to-face, it's staggering.  When I was growing up, my dad NEVER let me stay over people's houses.   EVER (it was his thing).  Because of that, and my curfew, I never really got to go to any of the cooler parties.   Not important what they are, but there were two or three "events" growing up that happened at parties, and even though my friends were there, I wasn't.   Some were sort of dicks about it, but most weren't.  Now?  My daughter didn't go to a party because she was upset at her boyfeiend, and the next day there's snapgrams and instachats of other girls mocking her and throwing gang fingers or whatever the fuck the kids call it, calling her a loser for not going... wha?  Now it's not just the close friends that know she wasn't there, but the whole world, basically. And none of the "world" know that she didn't go because her boyfriend was balling on the side and she didn't feel up to putting on the show for him.   How does a teenager deal with that?  Doesn't take an advanced Google search to know that some kids are dealing with it via weed, depression and anti-anxiety pills, it seems.   It's not just kids either; don't want to share too much, but her GRANDMOTHER even got into the act, shaming her on Facebook for not fostering the relationship with her (grandma is dead wrong and has other issues, but still that just makes it worse, because few others know of THOSE things, and my daughter isn't about to "out" her grandma).    Just one example, I know, but there are far more episodes that border on that than that move the ball forward in terms of teaching how to interact with others in an effective way. 

Let me ask you something, had there not been social media, wouldn't she have been bullied the next day at school anyways? Hasn't bullying been a part of the American society for years now? If you ask me, the fact that it's happening in social media has given a visibility to it that wasn't there before and because of that people now are willing to accept that bullying is a problem, that kids are suffering from it and that it should be acted upon.
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Online Grappler

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Re: Social media: The Death Knell of Society
« Reply #7 on: May 16, 2018, 07:35:40 AM »
My biggest problem with social media is that it enables people to be so lazy.  After I bought my house (2009, just as Facebook was starting to grow), I scoured my village's website, looking for things - copies of the village code, local ordinances, info, news.  I learned a lot by doing this, and continue to do so.

I belong to a lot of different Facebook groups - local resident groups, fatherhood groups.  Great for community interaction and support, but all I see are people asking questions that could be answered in minutes if they took the time to look for the resource themselves.  The scariest ones are the fatherhood groups, where they say "my wife is X months pregnant, and she has these symptoms.  Is her water breaking?  Should we be worried?  Is she having contractions?"  CALL YOUR DOCTOR NOW!

It drives me crazy to see people taking the time to ask questions on social media groups when they could take a few minutes, look it up themselves, and be resourceful, or call a doctor's office instead.  Thankfully, my kids are very young and won't have to deal with the bullying for a while.  I've hidden people's feeds on my page, or fully unfriended them based on what they post.  I do not friend any coworkers, so they don't see what I may post about. 

it's a great way for family members to see things about my kids, and I try to be thoughtful and personal with my posts, rather than just blast out meme after meme or share 20 updates about missing people on my profile. 

Offline Harmony

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Re: Social media: The Death Knell of Society
« Reply #8 on: May 16, 2018, 09:06:34 AM »
Yes, the whole business about asking for medical advice on social media is mind-blowing to me too.  I also see it on pet-related pages.  But I try to remember that this also has been going on since the advent of the telephone.  I remember my mom calling family and friends for medical advice.  Going to the doctor or the vet costs money.  People want to get help for free if they can avoid bills.  I'm not saying it is right but I understand some of the whys and I am reassured to see most people telling whoever is posting to seek proper medical or veterinarian advice.

So this story may make Stads' head explode.  But then again, maybe he'll see it like a mystery to be solved - which is sort of the fun about it to me.  I'm going to post 2 different accounts of what transpired - one more sympathetic to subject, one less. 

A gubernatorial candidate in Oklahoma appeared to have posted on his Facebook page that it would be better to euthanize the elderly and disabled than to have to pay taxes for their food stamps.  The posts have since been deleted.  He is now claiming his account was hacked.

http://kfor.com/2018/05/15/gubernatorial-candidate-says-hes-received-death-threats-over-social-media-comments-he-didnt-make/

https://www.rawstory.com/2018/05/oklahoma-gop-candidate-proposes-euthanasia-disabled-poor-avoid-food-stamps/#.WvtMEAER5BU.twitter



Offline Stadler

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Re: Social media: The Death Knell of Society
« Reply #9 on: May 16, 2018, 10:31:49 AM »
Those are the people I was suggesting we can weed out of our social media lives - not simply because we disagree with them but because emojis aren't opinions and just because someone has access to the internet doesn't make them experts on any given subject.  I'm a little confused about an emoji being "EXPECTED" to command respect.  I've not seen that.  And if someone suggested that to me, I'd have a nice laugh and block them for being a complete idiot.

It's not something to see; it's really my shorthand way of addressing the change over the last decade or so from people sharing opinions with the implicit understanding that it's an idea, there is no pride of ownership, and it's really a starting point for a discussion, to now where "opinions" are gospel, they are a "right" and they are to be honored as if they were fact.   I don't have a ready example, but it's not hard to find one; virtually any political "exchange" on Twitter has an example of this.   It's common when specious or emotional positions are attacked with hard statistics.    Just because one person thinks it, doesn't give that idea any weight, any veracity, or any currency.   It HAS to be vetted by the facts that we know. I'll keep my eye out for an example.

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As to why people need to broadcast intimate and mundane aspects of their ordinary lives, I'd ask mundane to who?  You've posted about how social media allows your wife to see her grandson and that she enjoys this.  I'm sure someone on this board would find that a mundane and ordinary waste of time.  Who are they to judge?  If they don't want to see it, they don't have to.  Scrolling is a great thing to learn how to do.  I put it right up there with averting our eyes when we don't want to see a naked person walking around in their own home.  It takes absolutely zero effort and serves a valuable purpose.

I think there's a difference there, though.   My "daughter-in-law" puts that up, in a private setting, specifically for that purpose.   We've even talked about that as a family; she's uneasy with it, in the sense of, it's NOT for public consumption, but rather is really just a fancy file transfer system.  I'm talking more about the substance of the mass communications.    You really only need to pick a profile at random and you'll find a level of self-importance that is both stunning and scary at the same time.   

Look, this is hard to express in a concise way, but also remember that I don't look at things in a vacuum.   I look at social media - and the problems we're seeing there - and Trump - more specifically what led to Trump - and the mass shootings - and what is making young men (almost exclusively) feel like killing other innocents in cold blood is actually moving the ball forward for whatever it is they're dealing with - and the fact that we, America, are leading the world in prescription medications, in psychotropic drug use, opioid abuse, etc.   None of this stuff exists in it's own silo; it's just too ponderous to discuss all at once.   On another site - predominantly liberal - I have posited my idea of the "pendulum" to explain the politics of today.  Not an obvious "democrat to republican and back to democrat" pendulum - we've had that for the better part of a century - but rather a more insidious, and more dangerous, pendulum of reactionary ideas.  I don't like Trump, didn't vote for him (and wouldn't now, though I think he's doing a far better job that the "RESIST!" warriors want or will admit to) but I don't at all think he's an anomaly.  We didn't see it coming because we weren't looking for it, but he is absolutely a logical and linear inevitability based on what has come before.  He is a direct reaction to the over-emphasis - note, OVER-emphasis - on identity politics, and the way we've focused SO exclusively on the special interests, to the point that we have the nerve to call out people that just want to dial it back a LITTLE "deplorable".    I won't go into it here, but you can trace Trump very directly through Obama, Clinton, Nixon and Kennedy in various ways (and before you assume, I think Kennedy and Clinton are both top ten, maybe even top five greatest Presidents this nation has ever had). 

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I don't care what TrumpH8R or ObamasaKenyan476 have to say because I know how to scroll and block.    ;)

But this is part of the danger.  Why block them?  because they're idiots?   Maybe.  What about the next guy, "Hillary2020" or "Kasichwasright123" that isn't really an IDIOT, but maybe isn't exactly on board with our thinking?  Block them?   Then what about Hillary herself, or Kasich himself - both reasonable, and fairly moderate candidates, politically, when you look at it - do we block them?  That's just inviting the echo chamber.   

By the way, as good a time as any to say, "I don't have all the answers".  To some degree, the genie may be out of the bottle on this, and I understand that.


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I'm not suggesting that you do.  I'm suggesting that if you want to have dialogue on social media that brings you more information and brings you more data from outside of your worldview, you can get there.  You just have to be discerning and that is not a bad thing to learn how to be.  That is something worthwhile to teach our children how to do.

Of course.  I can't really respond here without sounding arrogant or superior, but I'll beg your indulgence to cut me some slack in that regard:   I don't worry about me or my kids.  I worry about those people that say "Well, nothing you can say will ever change my mind".   Or that have "silver bullet issues".   There are plenty of people that, if you're not 100% actively anti-racist - note, not at all the same thing as "not being racist" -  will not consider a candidate.    There are plenty of people that heard Trump say "Muslim Ban" once on the campaign trail, and so will forever more view EVERY immigration step, policy or program as a "Muslim Ban".   It's how we are when we are not willing to invest in our own knowledge.   And social media plays into that.  "Why do I have to endure the bigoted, biased fucks on Fox News when I can get my news from the perfect, unbiased and always right Rachel Maddow.  We agree on everything!"   Well, got news; if you agree with your news source on EVERYTHING, you're in the echo chamber.  You're not learning.   We're all human, therefore all fallable, and so EVERY HUMAN ON THE PLANET is wrong on something. SOMETHING.  If you don't accept that, you're part of the problem.  (Harmony, none of the "you's" here are you personally; I mean it in the collective sense).   

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Well I can only control myself and hopefully impact my children's on-line habits.  You can't control your neighbor or the 20 year old offering his 2 cents on the internet.  Welcome to the club.  But there are diamonds out there in the rough if you are willing to weed through the noise to get there.  I completely understand why someone would choose not to engage at all and I respect that decision.  But I still don't see social media as all or even mostly negative.  I see it as a tool that has a fairly steep learning curve to get to the point where one feels more comfortable with it.  I see it as entertainment.  I see it as information.  I see it as a challenge.  I see it as an inevitable part of the global community.

Now you're touching a nerve.  Haha.  I don't have the temperament to wade in.  I get too wrapped around the axle by morons.  I try, oh yes I try, but then there's some SJW with a  hipster handle with a quippy meme about Trump with SS lightning bolts photo-shopped onto his collar, or some quasi-Alt-right wanna be with prison bars photo-shopped over Hillary and I lose my shit. 

Offline XeRocks81

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Re: Social media: The Death Knell of Society
« Reply #10 on: May 16, 2018, 10:36:18 AM »
The "echo chamber" effect of social media is somewhat inevitable I think.  As Harmony mentioned we can learn to use the different functions to "weed out" the annoyances but even if we try to be careful and still include different opinions than our own we still end up with a circle of online "friends" that are similar to us. 
« Last Edit: May 16, 2018, 11:22:05 AM by XeRocks81 »

Offline Stadler

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Re: Social media: The Death Knell of Society
« Reply #11 on: May 16, 2018, 10:44:10 AM »
I'm gonna chip in and use the same arguments Stadler uses to defend guns. Most of this is in line with what Harmony is saying I think.

Social media is a tool that can be used for both good things and bad things. It allows people to connect to other people over great distances. It allows people to get vast amounts of information about things they are interested in.
It allows for small companies and ventures to reach people through publicity in a much cheaper and effective way, thus creating a sort of balance with big companies who have a massive budget to do this the traditional way.
It allows for bands to publicize themselves in a way they couldn't have done before and start giving Indy bands and not so popular bands a chance to be heard and reach the public.
It allows for news to be spread even when big media corporations don't want to broadcast them on TV, radio or whatever.

It also allows for all the bad things you mentioned before.

Now, is this a matter of the tool being bad or a matter of the people not being educated enough to use it wisely? As I said before, Stads argument against guns is that guns are not the problem, but that there is a deeper problem within society that needs to be fixed and I think the this is the same case.

For the record, I agree with you 1000%.  No argument at all.  I would just point out that even experienced, dedicated gun owners and operators usually agree that you don't just pick up a gun and carry it.  Even reasonably avid gun owners would advocate for SOME training and licensure to own and operate a gun.   It takes a smartphone and a 5th grade reading level to use social media.  And that's the problem, isn't it?

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Let me ask you something, had there not been social media, wouldn't she have been bullied the next day at school anyways? Hasn't bullying been a part of the American society for years now? If you ask me, the fact that it's happening in social media has given a visibility to it that wasn't there before and because of that people now are willing to accept that bullying is a problem, that kids are suffering from it and that it should be acted upon.

I touched on this; yes.  But the scope is wildly different. It's the same with naked photos.   How many times have you heard "Oh, I sent it to "so-and-so" because I trusted him/her".    Did you know there is a dark website that catalogues nude selfies by state, town, and SCHOOL.  Think about that for a second;  the nude selfies are catalogued by SCHOOL.   At the time I learned of this - through a cop, whom we talked to about the bullying I mentioned above - my other daughter was in a school that went from K through 9.  That's, what, 13, 14?   THERE WAS A FOLDER FOR HER SCHOOL ON THAT WEB SITE.  (By the way, I didn't look at the site; my wife and daughters did; the cop told us to check because it was a way of leveraging a sex offense against the bullying, if they posted pictures of her there without her consent; I overheard "holy shit, I know her!" more times than my stomach could handle.  I didn't actually puke, but my god I wanted to).   

Yeah, when I didn't go to the hip parties, I got made fun of, but it was five people, ten tops, and while I hated it - I'm still talking about it 35 years later, hahaha - it wasn't a thing.  When we went to the next grade it was forgotten, mostly, and when I went to college it was forgotten TOTALLY.   Now, it's not like that.   The WHOLE SCHOOL knows.  It follows you.  And these kids - this is science, not my opinion - already have only a nascient sense of "consequences" anyway, and here we are blowing the doors off the possible consequences from any one action.     

Offline Stadler

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Re: Social media: The Death Knell of Society
« Reply #12 on: May 16, 2018, 10:58:31 AM »
I don't mean this in a condescending way, or to disparage any of you or your arguments.   It's a great discussion.  But as a matter of perspective, look at the argument being made here:

- Social media is a great tool if you put in the effort to get to the fruit.

That may be true, but look at some of the other statements:  "it enables us to be lazy".  "there is a lot of noise there".    The idea with "social media" is that it's a CONNECTOR.  It brings down walls, and pulls people together.   My argument - and some of the observations made here, even by those that endorse it's use - is that it's not actually doing that, but making things HARDER.   My metaphor is that ocean wave that comes in, quietly, calmly, and inevitably, and doesn't wipe out the sand castle entirely, but blurs it irreparably, and over time wipes it out.   I think social media DOESN'T create any insight, it creates the ILLUSION of insight, and in so doing, actually creates distance.  Distance in people that don't now talk face to face, distance in ideas that aren't encouraged to be overlapped and integrated, and distance in emotions and passions that now have to be "blocked" in order to preserve decorum. 

Put simply, I don't think some of these things SHOULD be made easy.  It's hard to look someone in the eye and communicate your ideas and feelings cogently and succinctly.   But the reward is powerful.  We shouldn't be trying to circumvent that.   Look at it this way:   John Adams; Thomas Jefferson.  There are VOLUMES of letters, painstakingly written by hand, back and forth between them, over the span of almost 50 years, which en masse will form an incredible, and awe-inspiring body of ideas and ideals (not to mention the implicit love and respect between two titans of political philosophy who most assuredly did NOT see eye-to-eye on many things).   What will the Trump Library contain?     

"Can you believe that with all of the made up, unsourced stories I get from the Fake News Media, together with the  $10,000,000 Russian Witch Hunt (there is no Collusion), I now have my best Poll Numbers in a year. Much of the Media may be corrupt, but the People truly get it!"

and

"Covfefe"

Offline XeRocks81

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Re: Social media: The Death Knell of Society
« Reply #13 on: May 16, 2018, 11:25:11 AM »
 Social media isn't made strictly for Adams/Jefferson style dissertations.  Though It can be used to easily link to that if someone wants to click and read it.

Offline Stadler

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Re: Social media: The Death Knell of Society
« Reply #14 on: May 16, 2018, 11:45:41 AM »
Social media isn't made strictly for Adams/Jefferson style dissertations.  Though It can be used to easily link to that if someone wants to click and read it.

Of course it's not.  But Adams/Jefferson didn't have the option.   We do, and if you read the rest of this, it's like I said, we're seeing more and more excuses to NOT click.  More and more ways to not click.   Fuck, if people are not even willing to write out "to be" and what not, how can we assume they're clicking the links?  Think about that for a second:   given that they had to write out everything long hand, no cut and paste, and using ink they had to prepare and load into a pen, you'd think that Adams and Jefferson would have concocted a short hand, but they didn't.   I think - implicitly, maybe - they understood that the time taken to make it right, to make the thought clear and concise and profound, was a necessarily part of the process and by shortcutting it, we're not "being current" or "multitasking" or "being efficient", we're selling ourselves short.   

Offline Harmony

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Re: Social media: The Death Knell of Society
« Reply #15 on: May 16, 2018, 12:15:12 PM »
I think there's a difference there, though.   My "daughter-in-law" puts that up, in a private setting, specifically for that purpose.   We've even talked about that as a family; she's uneasy with it, in the sense of, it's NOT for public consumption, but rather is really just a fancy file transfer system.  I'm talking more about the substance of the mass communications.    You really only need to pick a profile at random and you'll find a level of self-importance that is both stunning and scary at the same time.

Ah, thanks for clarifying that part.  For the record, people can lock down their profile pages - at least on FB - so that only friends can see them.  Sometimes I forget that people don't understand this.  Obviously many people WANT to keep their profiles public.  People also have the options of tailoring posts to only get to certain friends/family and can also take things to PMs even posting to various people all at once there in a group. 

But this is part of the danger.  Why block them?  because they're idiots?   Maybe.  What about the next guy, "Hillary2020" or "Kasichwasright123" that isn't really an IDIOT, but maybe isn't exactly on board with our thinking?  Block them?   Then what about Hillary herself, or Kasich himself - both reasonable, and fairly moderate candidates, politically, when you look at it - do we block them?  That's just inviting the echo chamber.   

No it isn't.  It really isn't.  If someone has the handle TrumpH8R or ObamaisasecretKenyan2018, I pretty much know there will be no substantive dialogue.  The same goes for someone starting a post off with, "Hey libturd" or "Hey Trumptard" you pretty much know what you are going to get.  I have zero illusions that I'm going to sway their opinions or have anything resembling a constructive conversation with that in the same way that if some guy walks up to you on the street and says, "Hey douchebag!" pretty much sets the tone going forward.  Now if you want to engage those people, that's your prerogative.  Me?  I have no time for that nonsense.

I worry about those people that say "Well, nothing you can say will ever change my mind". 

Didn't those people exist before social media too?  Why do you 'worry' so much about people you don't know?

Now you're touching a nerve.  Haha.  I don't have the temperament to wade in.  I get too wrapped around the axle by morons.  I try, oh yes I try, but then there's some SJW with a  hipster handle with a quippy meme about Trump with SS lightning bolts photo-shopped onto his collar, or some quasi-Alt-right wanna be with prison bars photo-shopped over Hillary and I lose my shit.

With deep respect though, this sounds like an issue that you have with being unable to let things go.  I think I'm starting to understand your deep frustration with social media and it isn't what I initially thought it was.  I also understand that it is more than one thing.  But if you go into any sort of exchange with humans thinking you can talk everyone out of their opinions, you are setting yourself up for failure right out of the gate.  And I'd say that about a lot of things, not just social media.  Social media is simply amplifying what has already existed.  Single issue voters have always existed.  People clinging to beliefs that fly in the face of facts have always existed.  Stubborn assholes have always existed.  Maybe the trick is coming to terms with the fact that no matter how hard you try, some people just don't want to put in the effort that you do.

If I had my way I'd insist people read more books.  I'd insist people travel more, especially outside of their own country.  I'd insist more community service.  I'd insist less hero worship of celebrities.  I'd insist more emphasis on civics in middle and high schools.

But I don't get to make the rules and I don't always get to have my way.  So I recognize that people are different and I don't lose sleep if some guy on Twitter calls me a libturd because I can't change his mind.

Offline Harmony

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Re: Social media: The Death Knell of Society
« Reply #16 on: May 16, 2018, 12:19:31 PM »
Social media isn't made strictly for Adams/Jefferson style dissertations.  Though It can be used to easily link to that if someone wants to click and read it.

Of course it's not.  But Adams/Jefferson didn't have the option.   We do, and if you read the rest of this, it's like I said, we're seeing more and more excuses to NOT click.  More and more ways to not click.   Fuck, if people are not even willing to write out "to be" and what not, how can we assume they're clicking the links?  Think about that for a second:   given that they had to write out everything long hand, no cut and paste, and using ink they had to prepare and load into a pen, you'd think that Adams and Jefferson would have concocted a short hand, but they didn't.   I think - implicitly, maybe - they understood that the time taken to make it right, to make the thought clear and concise and profound, was a necessarily part of the process and by shortcutting it, we're not "being current" or "multitasking" or "being efficient", we're selling ourselves short.

So an epic novel cannot be written on a computer and should be written in long hand?  Not even a typewriter?

Sorry, not trying to give you shit but I am trying to make a point.  I have lamented the loss of letter writing.  When my grandmother passed away and I got to see her treasure trove of letters she wrote to my grandpa while he was in the Navy.  Even writing in cursive seems to be a lost form of art these days.  I don't know how to stop efficiency from taking over our lives.  But most days I'm damn happy I don't have to do laundry by hand.   ;)

Offline Stadler

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Re: Social media: The Death Knell of Society
« Reply #17 on: May 16, 2018, 02:02:16 PM »
No it isn't.  It really isn't.  If someone has the handle TrumpH8R or ObamaisasecretKenyan2018, I pretty much know there will be no substantive dialogue.  The same goes for someone starting a post off with, "Hey libturd" or "Hey Trumptard" you pretty much know what you are going to get.  I have zero illusions that I'm going to sway their opinions or have anything resembling a constructive conversation with that in the same way that if some guy walks up to you on the street and says, "Hey douchebag!" pretty much sets the tone going forward.  Now if you want to engage those people, that's your prerogative.  Me?  I have no time for that nonsense.

You're right of course, but I didn't do my argument justice with my choice of names.  I wasn't implying an overt bias.  I was saying that at some point it doesn't HAVE to be "libtard" or "trumptard" and it will still get our blockage.  I was trying to say that it's a slippery slope, and what starts with clearly offensive behavior that has no interest in discussion will devolve into "I just don't want to deal with opposition".  We see it now.   I can't TELL you how many times I've had the "I hate Fox News it's so biased; I watch MSNBC instead!" conversation, even thought there are literally TENS of official, peer-reviewed studies that show that MSNBC is SIGNIFICANTLY more biased - as measured from "center" - than Fox News.   Frankly, if I was a liberal, I would WANT to watch Fox News, to understand the counterpoint of my positions.   

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Didn't those people exist before social media too?  Why do you 'worry' so much about people you don't know?

Because before it was easier to... marginalize (not the right word) that kind of behavior in the past.  That's kind of the underlying point; it's that potentially destructive - if not 'destructive', then at least non-productive - behavior is now being celebrated as the norm.   Now it's not just tolerated, it's encouraged.  I don't PERSONALLY care about "those people" but I do care as the trend expand and it's less easy to separate "those people" from the general zeitgeist.


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With deep respect though, this sounds like an issue that you have with being unable to let things go.  I think I'm starting to understand your deep frustration with social media and it isn't what I initially thought it was.  I also understand that it is more than one thing.  But if you go into any sort of exchange with humans thinking you can talk everyone out of their opinions, you are setting yourself up for failure right out of the gate.  And I'd say that about a lot of things, not just social media.  Social media is simply amplifying what has already existed.  Single issue voters have always existed.  People clinging to beliefs that fly in the face of facts have always existed.  Stubborn assholes have always existed.  Maybe the trick is coming to terms with the fact that no matter how hard you try, some people just don't want to put in the effort that you do.

Oh, no.  Just the opposite.  I don't at all want to or need to "change people's opinions".   Just the opposite; I want THEM to change MINE.  Meaning, I don't at all think I'm right on everything, or even most things.  I want to be challenged.  I want to feel that feeling of "wait a second here; they might be on to something" then I have to go back and figure out why I didn't get it the first time (or why they might not be as right as I initially thought).  Either way, I can now, presumably, better articulate my postion and better defend it the next time.  We should ALL be doing this.  This is how we - collective - get smarter.   Always replacing our good ideas with slightly better ideas.   

You are right; there have always been single issue voters and there always will be.  Above all things, I think voting is like masturbating; what I do in the privacy of my voting booth is my business.  Uh, as long as I'm voting. :)   No one can tell me how to vote or why to vote.  If I want to vote for Trump because he's a stud with the ladies, or Obama because he's black, or Clinton because  he's the smartest guy on the planet, that's on me.    But social media allows for a subtle - and sometimes not so subtle - bullying and shaming, which pushes that reasoning and rationale onto others.   I didn't, but if I did, I don't want to be accused of being a racist because I vote for Trump.  I suppose I could lie - but why do I have to be inauthentic now in order to combat internet shaming?   

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If I had my way I'd insist people read more books.  I'd insist people travel more, especially outside of their own country.  I'd insist more community service.  I'd insist less hero worship of celebrities.  I'd insist more emphasis on civics in middle and high schools.

But I don't get to make the rules and I don't always get to have my way.  So I recognize that people are different and I don't lose sleep if some guy on Twitter calls me a libturd because I can't change his mind.
[/quote]

FYI, I agree.  Unless and until I become a celebrity, in which case worship is fine by me.  ;)  But understand that my premise is that it shouldn't be so cavalier that that guy calls you a "libturd" instead of engaging you in meaningful discussion.

I equate this to the mass shootings; I don't think it's guns.  I don't think we solve the problem by banning guns.   I think we have to be asking, "what makes it a reasonable choice for an 18 year old to combat his problems by watching his FRIENDS die by bullet?"   Maybe it's me, but I'm not shocked about the "gun violence".  I'm shocked about the VIOLENCE.   When I was in high school, we got frustrated and we took it out on a football field.  If someone gave you shit, you'd be on opposite teams and at some point in the game, he'd get the ball and you'd have your shot to hit him.   Or vice versa.  And if the hit was too good, they punched you back and you'd scrap for a couple minutes, the rest of the guys would get a drink and then pull you apart and you kept playing.   I had full access to guns from the day I can remember conscious thought.  It's not that I never got bullied, it's not that I never was frustrated or scared or lost.  But it never once ever even remotely, even as a JOKE, occurred to me to "shoot" someone.   And none of my friends.  What makes that guy think it's effective discussion skills to dismiss you as a libturd?  That should bother us way more than it does, in my opinion. 



« Last Edit: May 17, 2018, 10:03:14 AM by Stadler »

Offline Harmony

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Re: Social media: The Death Knell of Society
« Reply #18 on: May 17, 2018, 09:48:30 AM »
understand that my premise is that it shouldn't be so cavalier that that guy calls you a "libturd" instead of engaging you in meaningful discussion.

So what is your solution?  If people don't want to engage in meaningful discussion then what?

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Re: Social media: The Death Knell of Society
« Reply #19 on: May 17, 2018, 10:49:53 AM »
understand that my premise is that it shouldn't be so cavalier that that guy calls you a "libturd" instead of engaging you in meaningful discussion.

So what is your solution?  If people don't want to engage in meaningful discussion then what?

Well, if ultimately they don't want to engage, you don't engage.   You can't - and shouldn't - force anyone to do something they don't want.   But more often than not, I try to counter with calm logic.    I've told the story before about the skinny kid with a man-bag confronting me with bodily harm in a bar in Philly.   I didn't hit him (I'm no MMA fighter, but absent some hidden skillset, I would have crushed this kid; I had easily 75 pounds on him).  I didn't call him a "libtard" - though I could have - but I didn't ignore him, either.  Ultimately, I did end up sitting at his group table talking politics.  I have no illusions that I changed his or anyone else's mind, but then again, there was SOME level of dialogue.    What they do with it is on them.   

Generally, I answer claims and comments that I find incomplete or misleading.  Whether it's one time or 100 times (within reason) I provide a counter point.   I don't tell them what to think, I don't tell them they're stupid, or ignorant or any of that.  I'm prone, like many people are, to find patterns, perhaps where none exist, and I find that with repeated discussion, we find nuances that help to clarify points.  I know for me, the repeated debate has shown me that more often than not, the differences aren't of the WHAT, the base issues - even if that's how they're painted in the MSM - but rather of the HOW.  Sometimes we need to remind each other of that (not you and me, but big picture).

Offline Harmony

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Re: Social media: The Death Knell of Society
« Reply #20 on: May 19, 2018, 08:38:27 AM »
Well, I agree that it is often easier to get people to engage in face to face situations.  But I was specifically talking about social media.

I think your example of what to look for in seeking a dialogue is valid.  I have gotten into some discussions on FB by providing a counter point.  I often do this with my kids too - although this tends to horrify them.   :lol   It is more problematic on Twitter because I've noticed that as more people jump into the fray of the conversation on one single post, it gets confusing quickly as to who is addressing who and which comment. 

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Re: Social media: The Death Knell of Society
« Reply #21 on: May 20, 2018, 07:59:05 PM »
Funny you say that; I can't follow most of the Twitter threads I encounter.   Most of my tweets should be "uh, who are you responding to?"



Since I am gun shy about treading on people's precious comedy, I would also point you to the thread where the girl posted her debit card, AND answered the "what is the CVC code on the back?" on Twitter, and wondered why she had to cancel the card for identity theft. 

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Re: Social media: The Death Knell of Society
« Reply #22 on: November 16, 2018, 06:21:32 AM »
I want to talk about Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez for a minute.

This isn't about her policies or outlook on where the country should head, but strictly of her use of Instagram as a method of reaching out to the public. Like her or not, I suggest you follow her, at least for a little bit to see what I'm talking about (@ocasio2018). Lately, she's been posting very detailed stories of her day-to-day. Where she's going, what meetings she's having and what they're about, the literature related to her position that she's reading etc... She's giving an incredible inside look at what the day-to-day looks like for a member of congress. I think it's really cool actually. I wish more politicians would go to the level she is to keep us informed on what they're actually doing with our tax dollars.
« Last Edit: November 16, 2018, 07:13:15 AM by Chino »

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Re: Social media: The Death Knell of Society
« Reply #23 on: November 16, 2018, 07:22:33 AM »
I want to talk about Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez for a minute.

This isn't about her policies or outlook on where the country should head, but strictly of her use of Instagram as a method of reaching out to the public. Like her or not, I suggest you follow her, at least for a little bit to see what I'm talking about (@ocasio2018). Lately, she's been posting very detailed stories of her day-to-day. Where she's going, what meetings she's having and what they're about, the literature related to her position that she's reading etc... She's giving an incredible inside look at what the day-to-day looks like for a member of congress. I think it's really cool actually. I wish more politicians would go to the level she is to keep us informed on what they're actually doing with our tax dollars.

I'd follow that.  That sounds interesting.

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Re: Social media: The Death Knell of Society
« Reply #24 on: November 16, 2018, 06:15:58 PM »
I want to talk about Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez for a minute.

This isn't about her policies or outlook on where the country should head, but strictly of her use of Instagram as a method of reaching out to the public. Like her or not, I suggest you follow her, at least for a little bit to see what I'm talking about (@ocasio2018). Lately, she's been posting very detailed stories of her day-to-day. Where she's going, what meetings she's having and what they're about, the literature related to her position that she's reading etc... She's giving an incredible inside look at what the day-to-day looks like for a member of congress. I think it's really cool actually. I wish more politicians would go to the level she is to keep us informed on what they're actually doing with our tax dollars.

I'd follow that.  That sounds interesting.

Yeah that sounds awesome. But I don't have Instagram. Maybe she could join DTF.
would have thought the same thing but seeing the OP was TAC i immediately thought Maiden or DT related
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Offline Cool Chris

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Re: Social media: The Death Knell of Society
« Reply #25 on: November 16, 2018, 08:44:47 PM »
I want to talk about Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez for a minute. Lately, she's been posting very detailed stories of her day-to-day.

9:00 Order coffee and pastries for staff at Starbucks; while waiting for order bemoan not being able to afford a home in DC.
10:00 Book club. This week's discussion "The Communist Manifesto"
11:00 Attend protest, topic TBD.
1:00 Plan, schedule, and coordinate tomorrow's protest.
2:00 Lunch with Sen. Sanders. Take careful notes and unequivocally believe everything he says.
3:30 Attend lecture at university, subject: Economics 101 (note: will probably skip).
4:30 Go to bank to deposit check from George Soros
4:35 Wire money from deposit to agencies in Central America organizing the Migrant Caravans
5:00 Drive self to dinner with staff (during drive think of ways to get all non-public servants out of cars, as they are destroying our environment).
6:00 Dinner with staff, convince wait staff they are victims of oppression, and the only way to remedy situation is to Democrat.
9:00 Try to Pre-Order Kshama Sawant’s book on the evils of Capitalism. Can only find on Amazon.com
9:01 Pre-Order book on Amazon.com. Dammit.
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Re: Social media: The Death Knell of Society
« Reply #26 on: November 16, 2018, 08:54:00 PM »
11:00 Attend protest, topic TBD.

9:00 Try to Pre-Order Kshama Sawant’s book on the evils of Capitalism. Can only find on Amazon.com
9:01 Pre-Order book on Amazon.com. Dammit.

Two good chuckles there.

Offline Cool Chris

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Re: Social media: The Death Knell of Society
« Reply #27 on: November 16, 2018, 09:31:29 PM »
Actually looked at Sawant's book's release date: Sept 03, 2019. That's quite the lead time.

The next listing: Why Women Have Better Sex Under Socialism: And Other Arguments for Economic Independence
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Re: Social media: The Death Knell of Society
« Reply #28 on: November 17, 2018, 09:36:26 AM »
I don't have Instagram.

*faints in shock*
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Re: Social media: The Death Knell of Society
« Reply #29 on: November 17, 2018, 03:26:51 PM »
 :lol
would have thought the same thing but seeing the OP was TAC i immediately thought Maiden or DT related
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Offline Cool Chris

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Re: Social media: The Death Knell of Society
« Reply #30 on: November 17, 2018, 11:31:48 PM »
Ah c'mon, I internationally made that very tongue in cheek. I am very conscious of not calling people I disagree with names or resorting to hateful, hurtful rhetoric. I hope my track record here will back that up.
"Nostalgia is just the ability to forget the things that sucked" - Nelson DeMille, 'Up Country'

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Re: Social media: The Death Knell of Society
« Reply #31 on: November 18, 2018, 05:41:04 PM »
That's fair.

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Re: Social media: The Death Knell of Society
« Reply #32 on: December 04, 2018, 10:42:54 AM »
I've been meaning to post this here for a couple of days but I wanted to get my thoughts straight before Stads comes at me  :P

Is social media really the death knell of society? Because I believe the true death knell were reality shows. For more than two decades TV has been showing some of the worst people I've seen as "the real" people. The Jersey shore showed us a bunch of idiots who only partied, had sex and were mean to each other as some kind of standard. Big brother showed us random people stuck in a house fighting each other for popularity just so they could win that contest. Isn't that what really infected our society and later got us all the youtubers, the twitstars and everything else? Wasn't all that "public" shaming kids saw on tv what later transpired into the sort of shaming we see nowadays in social media? Wasn't this complete disregard of privacy what influenced how kids use social media today? Isn't that what eventually got Don elected as president? After all, he had a reality show where he was shown as an asshole who treated people like shit. People eventually got to believe that those kind of people are the real people.
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Re: Social media: The Death Knell of Society
« Reply #33 on: December 04, 2018, 12:29:46 PM »
Clearly the death knell of our American society was women wearing pants!  Or was it the talking picture shows?  Wait, maybe it was demon alcohol!  No, definitely pornography... surely it was porn. 
Oh shit, you're right!

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Re: Social media: The Death Knell of Society
« Reply #34 on: December 04, 2018, 12:32:05 PM »
Pretty sure society died when Starbucks decided to kill Christmas.