Author Topic: Fleetwood Mac: We Know Drama (Read 3933 times)

bosk1 · « **Reply #35 on:** April 11, 2018, 12:43:00 PM »

Oh, no problem. I wasn't really "arguing" as much as explaining myself. Just, again, saying that even though his statement is unequivocal, I think there may be reason to take it with a grain of salt. But at the end of the day, all I'm doing is explaining someone else's position. As for myself, I have no idea, and I don't really care enough to even try to take a position one way or the other.

Related to the point of not really having a dog in this fight, I can't really call myself anything near a die hard Fleetwood Mac fan. I became a fan of them in the early-mid '80s, and became an even bigger fan of some of Stevie's solo material. But my fandom was limited to the music. I never really followed FM or Stevie beyond buying the albums. And as for FM, I only have a few albums. I bought the ones I like, and left it at that (Rumours, Mirage, Tango, Greatest Hits, and The Dance). Usually, if I want to listen to them, I will pop in The Dance because it is a great collection of a lot of the songs I like from them, and the performance is excellent.

Stadler · « **Reply #36 on:** April 11, 2018, 01:17:51 PM »

Agreed with all that. To kind of show that the "grain of salt" approach is probably the right one: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/arts-and-entertainment/wp/2018/04/11/lindsey-buckingham-formerly-of-fleetwood-mac-rocks-biggest-jerk-or-misunderstood-genius/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.c3debef62591

My daughter came to me and asked "Hey, what's a good Fleetwood Mac greatest hits to listen to?" And I said "Rumours". She came back a couple days later and said "MAN, every song on that album is excellent". I had to tell her that it wasn't really a "greatest hits" album, but just, in 1977, the next album they put out. She couldn't believe it. I like the one before too (self-titled). Some of the later stuff veers toward bloat and saccharine, but those two albums are really on fire.

bosk1 · « **Reply #37 on:** April 11, 2018, 01:45:35 PM »

Have you seen/heard The Dance? It really is a fantastic show. I still need to pick up the DVD for that. I've seen it, but I only own the CD.

KevShmev · « **Reply #38 on:** April 11, 2018, 06:44:37 PM »

The Dance is what really made me a fan of Fleetwood Mac, although I always liked some of the hits in the 80's a lot, especially Gypsy and Big Love. And, to a slightly lesser extent, Hold Me.

I think the live version of Dreams from the Dance crushes the Rumours version, and while the original Silver Springs, which has since been restored to new releases of Rumours, is good, that live version kills it, largely because Buckingham's guitar work is both understated and killer.

Also, I never realized how weird FM was when it came to songwriting credit. Apparently whatever member wrote the original melody and lyrics got the songwriting credit, regardless of how much work the band had to do with in the studio. Buckingham doesn't have as many songwriting credits on their biggest hits and well known songs, but it sounds like he had a huge hand in making a lot of the "Stevie" and "Christine" songs far better than they would have been otherwise.

Cool Chris · « **Reply #39 on:** April 11, 2018, 07:52:52 PM »

It's crazy how good The Dance is. The five look like a well-oiled machine, a band that has spent a year honing their craft, perfecting their live performances, culminating in a big recorded show at the end of the tour. Which is as far from how it was actually conceived as possible.

KevShmev · « **Reply #40 on:** April 11, 2018, 08:48:31 PM »

They had a lot of help - you can see the backup singers in the background many times and there were clearly other musicians playing as well - but, yeah, it does sound great.

ReaperKK · « **Reply #41 on:** April 11, 2018, 08:52:43 PM »

Huh I never noticed that. Then again the last time I watched The Dance was like '99

Fritzinger · « **Reply #42 on:** April 12, 2018, 04:23:06 AM »

Quote from: Cool Chris on April 11, 2018, 07:52:52 PM

It's crazy how good The Dance is. The five look like a well-oiled machine, a band that has spent a year honing their craft, perfecting their live performances, culminating in a big recorded show at the end of the tour. Which is as far from how it was actually conceived as possible.

I just looked it up on YouTube and watched The Chain. JESUS this is crazy good. Those harmonies.

KevShmev · « **Reply #43 on:** April 12, 2018, 06:09:46 AM »

What's neat about that live version is how in the second verse, at the end of each line, either Stevie or Lindsey hold their note longer than everyone else or do some type of vocal embellishment. I love that.

Stadler · « **Reply #44 on:** April 12, 2018, 07:56:25 AM »

I saw this tour in CT in September of '97 (Wiki says that The Dance was recorded four months earlier, in May) and it was as good as advertised, maybe better. The harmonies, when allowed to resonate around the amphitheater... it was really really good (and that was what sealed my conviction that as a guitarist, Lindsey Buckingham is on the level of the greats).

ReaperKK · « **Reply #45 on:** April 12, 2018, 07:59:08 PM »

Speaking of Lindsey Buckingham, has anyone heard his first album with Stevie Nicks?

XeRocks81 · « **Reply #46 on:** April 12, 2018, 09:40:47 PM »

I was kind of indifferent to Fleetwood Mack or Lindsay Buckingham for a long time but in 2008 a friend (some of you may know him as Gruno, who used to have an internet radio show back in the day) introduced me to Lindsay's then new solo album Gift of Screws. I was blown away...Did you Miss Me is like a perfectly crafted jewel of a pop song.

Ben_Jamin · « **Reply #47 on:** April 25, 2018, 11:27:04 AM »

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/fleetwood-mac-tour-2018-without-lindsey-buckingham/

Well, what else is there to do if one doesn't want to tour while the rest do. You kick out the one that doesn't. Reminds me of a certain band...

Anguyen92 · « **Reply #48 on:** April 25, 2018, 11:33:02 AM »

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on April 25, 2018, 11:27:04 AM

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/fleetwood-mac-tour-2018-without-lindsey-buckingham/

Well, what else is there to do if one doesn't want to tour while the rest do. You kick out the one that doesn't. Reminds me of a certain band...

Except the guy didn't get kicked out. He felt a bit pressured in that spot that he wanted to quit.......

Ben_Jamin · « **Reply #49 on:** April 25, 2018, 11:51:12 AM »

Quote from: Anguyen92 on April 25, 2018, 11:33:02 AM

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on April 25, 2018, 11:27:04 AM
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/fleetwood-mac-tour-2018-without-lindsey-buckingham/

Well, what else is there to do if one doesn't want to tour while the rest do. You kick out the one that doesn't. Reminds me of a certain band...

Except the guy didn't get kicked out. He felt a bit pressured in that spot that he wanted to quit.......

I know, both are pretty much all you can do in that situation. Either leave or get the boot.

Cool Chris · « **Reply #50 on:** April 25, 2018, 11:54:48 AM »

Or realize you are part of a group and deal with the group's decisions even if you don't fully like them.

Orbert · « **Reply #51 on:** April 25, 2018, 12:04:38 PM »

Right, but if the option to just leave the group is also viable...

KevShmev · « **Reply #52 on:** October 12, 2018, 06:18:40 PM »

The latest:

-Lindsey Buckingham is now suing the band.
-Stevie Nicks has no voice left and sounds absolutely dreadful now.

King Postwhore · « **Reply #53 on:** October 12, 2018, 06:25:59 PM »

I can't wait to hear their reunion song about suing each other.

KevShmev · « **Reply #54 on:** October 12, 2018, 06:40:30 PM »

Yeah, like Stevie is ever gonna want to get in the studio again. She's much happier touring and making the easy money, and given her age, I can't say I blame her.

I also can't blame Lindsey for wanting to still scratch that creative itch.

King Postwhore · « **Reply #55 on:** October 12, 2018, 07:11:38 PM »

That's always been him though. Not that I dislike it. I love new music.

Orbert · « **Reply #56 on:** October 12, 2018, 09:07:27 PM »

Lindsey Buckingham: Life After Fleetwood Mac (Rolling Stone)

Lots more detail than we ever got before regarding the split, most of which was suspected. Yeah, it was Stevie who forced the issue. Personally, I have no reason to not believe Lindsey.

KevShmev · « **Reply #57 on:** October 13, 2018, 07:36:31 AM »

Agreed.

It looks like Stevie drew a "he goes or I go" line in the sand.

Mick Fleetwood will always opt with whatever makes him more money, and let's face it, even though Lindsey is the most creative guy in the band, Stevie is the bigger mainstream draw, meaning Fleetwood Mac sans Lindsey will sell more tickets than Fleetwood Mac sans Stevie.

Considering they did an album together just a couple years ago, I would bet money that Christine McVie is not thrilled with the way things played out, but she was likely outnumbered and simply went with the flow for the sake of band unity and keeping the paychecks flowing her way.

I know I've said it before, but I am still shocked that Stevie and Lindsey co-existed for as long as they did, given the hatred and ugly history between them.

Zook · « **Reply #58 on:** October 13, 2018, 10:20:40 AM »

Why do they hate each other? Is it simply creative differences? They started out as a duo didn't they?

Orbert · « **Reply #59 on:** October 13, 2018, 10:35:25 AM »

I've wondered that for a long time. They did start out as a duo. The Buckingham/Nicks album is pretty good. It sounds pretty much like what you'd expect; early songs by Lindsey and Stevie. They joined Fleetwood Mac together. Lindsey was offerred the guitarist position but he insisted that Stevie join as well, and the rest is history.

Since then, I've seen/read/heard many stories about all the relationship troubles within the band, but not a lot of specifics. Apparently Stevie and Mick had a thing, while they were all still in the band together, so maybe that was the start of things. Infidelity sucks, and definitely has broken up its share of couples. But if you're in a band together, the question isn't just whether or not you stay with the person, it's whether you put the band before your personal relationship with this other band member. Clearly both have put the good of the band over their personal issues sometimes, and sometimes not. Lindsey left for a while. I don't know if Stevie ever officially left, but the Buckingham/McVie album has Mick and John on bass and drums; it's basically a Fleetwood Mac album without Stevie.

I saw an interview one time with Lindsey and he was talking about this time when he and Stevie weren't speaking, but the band was working on a new album. Stevie had a song she was working on, but was stuck. It needed something. She went to Lindsey, because she knew he'd come up with something. Lindsey didn't want to help her because he was pissed at her, but he couldn't help himself. He knew exactly what the song needed. So for the band, they both put the personal shit aside and wrote the song together.

Maybe they hate each other because they were twentysomething and would've broken up like any normal couple, but were "forced" to work together all these years, and the resentment kept building and building. Lindsey says a part of him will always love Stevie, and Stevie has expressed a similar sentiment. But right now, the part that hates him is winning.

Zook · « **Reply #60 on:** October 13, 2018, 11:14:55 AM »

Quote from: Orbert on October 13, 2018, 10:35:25 AM

I've wondered that for a long time. They did start out as a duo. The Buckingham/Nicks album is pretty good. It sounds pretty much like what you'd expect; early songs by Lindsey and Stevie. They joined Fleetwood Mac together. Lindsey was offerred the guitarist position but he insisted that Stevie join as well, and the rest is history.

Since then, I've seen/read/heard many stories about all the relationship troubles within the band, but not a lot of specifics. Apparently Stevie and Mick had a thing, while they were all still in the band together, so maybe that was the start of things. Infidelity sucks, and definitely has broken up its share of couples. But if you're in a band together, the question isn't just whether or not you stay with the person, it's whether you put the band before your personal relationship with this other band member. Clearly both have put the good of the band over their personal issues sometimes, and sometimes not. Lindsey left for a while. I don't know if Stevie ever officially left, but the Buckingham/McVie album has Mick and John on bass and drums; it's basically a Fleetwood Mac album without Stevie.

I saw an interview one time with Lindsey and he was talking about this time when he and Stevie weren't speaking, but the band was working on a new album. Stevie had a song she was working on, but was stuck. It needed something. She went to Lindsey, because she knew he'd come up with something. Lindsey didn't want to help her because he was pissed at her, but he couldn't help himself. He knew exactly what the song needed. So for the band, they both put the personal shit aside and wrote the song together.

Maybe they hate each other because they were twentysomething and would've broken up like any normal couple, but were "forced" to work together all these years, and the resentment kept building and building. Lindsey says a part of him will always love Stevie, and Stevie has expressed a similar sentiment. But right now, the part that hates him is winning.

It's hard to recover after trust has been broken. What a mess.

Stadler · « **Reply #61 on:** October 15, 2018, 06:46:40 AM »

Quote from: Orbert on October 13, 2018, 10:35:25 AM

I've wondered that for a long time. They did start out as a duo. The Buckingham/Nicks album is pretty good. It sounds pretty much like what you'd expect; early songs by Lindsey and Stevie. They joined Fleetwood Mac together. Lindsey was offerred the guitarist position but he insisted that Stevie join as well, and the rest is history.

Since then, I've seen/read/heard many stories about all the relationship troubles within the band, but not a lot of specifics. Apparently Stevie and Mick had a thing, while they were all still in the band together, so maybe that was the start of things. Infidelity sucks, and definitely has broken up its share of couples. But if you're in a band together, the question isn't just whether or not you stay with the person, it's whether you put the band before your personal relationship with this other band member. Clearly both have put the good of the band over their personal issues sometimes, and sometimes not. Lindsey left for a while. I don't know if Stevie ever officially left, but the Buckingham/McVie album has Mick and John on bass and drums; it's basically a Fleetwood Mac album without Stevie.

I saw an interview one time with Lindsey and he was talking about this time when he and Stevie weren't speaking, but the band was working on a new album. Stevie had a song she was working on, but was stuck. It needed something. She went to Lindsey, because she knew he'd come up with something. Lindsey didn't want to help her because he was pissed at her, but he couldn't help himself. He knew exactly what the song needed. So for the band, they both put the personal shit aside and wrote the song together.

Maybe they hate each other because they were twentysomething and would've broken up like any normal couple, but were "forced" to work together all these years, and the resentment kept building and building. Lindsey says a part of him will always love Stevie, and Stevie has expressed a similar sentiment. But right now, the part that hates him is winning.

There's probably truth in all of that, but you can't discount that Lindsey is an odd duck. He just doesn't do things the way other people do, musically, and, it seems, in real life. The interview with Dan Rather a couple years ago was very illuminating in this way. This would not be the first time that Lindsey's view of reality was at material odds with others' views of the exact same circumstances. That's not to suggest that others' views are automatically correct - I think Stevie lives in her own bubble as well - but suffice to say I think it would be hard to know the real story in all this.

Orbert · « **Reply #62 on:** October 15, 2018, 07:38:25 AM »

Yeah, as always, the truth is something which we'll never really know. Didn't some philosopher ask once whether "truth" even exists? If only the people involved know what happened, and their accounts differ, then is there such thing as an accurate accounting of events? If none exists, then does the truth exist?

Anyway, the drama continues. Lindsey Buckingham Sues Fleetwood Mac Over Dismissal From Band.

So sad when it comes to lawsuits. It means that people who once cared about each other and made great music together have reached the point where some officially consider the others "the enemy". It also means that all that pretense of art and doing it for the music, for the fans, blah blah blah, is bullshit; it's about the money.

Stadler · « **Reply #63 on:** October 15, 2018, 07:51:30 AM »

Not suggesting that is the case here (I haven't read the article on the suit yet) but just a point of fact: "lawsuits" are not always "bad", and in fact are sometimes a necessary step (a "trigger" if you will) for other things to happen. When Mike split with DT, there was quite the kerfluffle over at mp.com about what a "dick" Mike was, this and that, and I got into a "debate" shall we say (I know, right?) with someone when I suggested that they were out of line saying that without knowing what the operating agreement of the corporation (Ytsejam, or whatever it was) said. It got to the point that someone very close to Mike (though not Mike himself) contacted me on the side to ask me how I knew what was in the operating agreement and whether I was affiliated with any or all of the remaining DT members or counsel. I didn't know for certain (and I was not then nor am now affiliated with anyone in the DT camp past or present) but it's a very common requirement to remove/liquidate/handle a change in ownership of an entity. it is also sometimes a requirement to trigger an audit of finances, which is often necessary to draw a "line in the sand" with respect to profits/expenses moving forward.

If I'm not mistaken, something similar is happening with Donald Fagen and Walter Becker's estate. Cheap Trick (Bun E. Carlos) as well.

Fritzinger · « **Reply #64 on:** October 16, 2018, 07:11:33 AM »

Not sure if I completely got you post Stadler (due to insufficient english knowledge). Could you please explain what's going on with Donald Fagen?

Stadler · « **Reply #65 on:** October 16, 2018, 09:42:19 AM »

Well, in a nutshell, way back when, Fagen and Becker set up a company to be "Steely Dan", and one of the provisions was, if any member (I don't know if it was just Fagen and Becker then, or some of the guys with them at the start, but I know now, as of Becker's death, only Fagen and Becker remain) quit or died, there was an automatic buy-out provision where the company would buy out the quitting/dying member's share. Here's a decent summary: https://www.rollingstone.com/music/music-news/steely-dans-donald-fagen-sues-walter-beckers-estate-127107/ but bear in mind it quotes (extensively) the lawsuit, and those are worded in very precise ways, since they form the basis of the arguments that are ultimately decided.

Although I haven't read the agreement (I've never even seen it, frankly) generally speaking in my experience, suits are required to determine the baseline of what is/are the controlling documents/framework, before you can even determine the outcome of the dispute, sometimes before you can even NEGOTIATE the outcome of a dispute. In other words, this is less about Fagen "fucking over" his partners wife - which is what it sounds like - but a company - Steely Dan - suing other companies that are providing services to it to affirm the validity of the underlying contract and to set standards for any negotiations moving forward as to who owes what to whom, and who gets to make ultimate decisions moving forward.

There are also rules of probate at play here. It's not as if "Don" and "Mrs. Becker" can get in a room, share stories about Walt, and say "hey, let's do this!". Even if they did, there would be nothing that would be enforceable as to the other parties or even (maybe) the probate court handling the estate.

Fritzinger · « **Reply #66 on:** October 16, 2018, 09:53:48 AM »

Quote from: Stadler on October 16, 2018, 09:42:19 AM

Well, in a nutshell, way back when, Fagen and Becker set up a company to be "Steely Dan", and one of the provisions was, if any member (I don't know if it was just Fagen and Becker then, or some of the guys with them at the start, but I know now, as of Becker's death, only Fagen and Becker remain) quit or died, there was an automatic buy-out provision where the company would buy out the quitting/dying member's share. Here's a decent summary: https://www.rollingstone.com/music/music-news/steely-dans-donald-fagen-sues-walter-beckers-estate-127107/ but bear in mind it quotes (extensively) the lawsuit, and those are worded in very precise ways, since they form the basis of the arguments that are ultimately decided.

Although I haven't read the agreement (I've never even seen it, frankly) generally speaking in my experience, suits are required to determine the baseline of what is/are the controlling documents/framework, before you can even determine the outcome of the dispute, sometimes before you can even NEGOTIATE the outcome of a dispute. In other words, this is less about Fagen "fucking over" his partners wife - which is what it sounds like - but a company - Steely Dan - suing other companies that are providing services to it to affirm the validity of the underlying contract and to set standards for any negotiations moving forward as to who owes what to whom, and who gets to make ultimate decisions moving forward.

There are also rules of probate at play here. It's not as if "Don" and "Mrs. Becker" can get in a room, share stories about Walt, and say "hey, let's do this!". Even if they did, there would be nothing that would be enforceable as to the other parties or even (maybe) the probate court handling the estate.

Thanks Stadler, I'm a huge fan of the Dan and I didn't even know that.
I read the article and concerning the bolded part of your post it states:

Quote

By the 2010s, the suit claims, Becker and Fagen were the “only remaining shareholders and signatories to the Buy/Sell Agreement.”

News: Dream Theater Forums: Still "a thing" since 2007.

Author Topic: Fleetwood Mac: We Know Drama (Read 3933 times)