Author Topic: Can we just stop, please?  (Read 5377 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Stadler

  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 14468
  • Gender: Male
  • Pointing out the "unfunny" since 2017!
Re: Can we just stop, please?
« Reply #175 on: July 23, 2018, 12:51:32 PM »
I think one thing that isn't being talked about as much was that the tweets resurfacing was a direct and deliberate attempt by people to get James Gunn fired because of his views on Trump and so forth.

Disney set a pretty dangerous precedent by showing that...yes, this can work. If you don't like someone, you can destroy them if they've ever done anything bad on twitter.

Say what you want about Trump, but he has yet to actually suffer any consequence from his tweets or anything he's said. So I wouldn't say it's the same thing when people dig up his tweets, because they've yet to result in anything beyond liberals getting angry.

I think Roseanne being fired was directly tied, at least in part, to her views on Trump.    A good measure of the press on her comeback was about how "unabashed" a Trump fan she was.  Sarah Gilbert hasn't had that much press interest since, well, never, as she tried to walk the RESIST! line and be fair to her colleague and friend, with whom she has a political disagreement.   

As for Trump, I wasn't referring to the consequences; I don't think he SHOULD face consequences, simply because someone disagrees with what he says.   But that's not for lack of trying by his opponents.   But he's been painted as a liar and hypocrite in large part due to the disparity in his past tweets.

Whether or not Rosanne was fired for being a Trump supporter isn't something you or I can know. Maybe she got fired for spilling coffee on someone with a lot of power backstage. Once we start ignoring official statements, then it's all pretty needless conjecture. I had a teacher who was officially let go ( or resigned or whatever) because of sexually reckless statements he made during class. Was this the reason he was really fired? No. He was fired because he was an awful teacher and had well over a dozen students (out of like 40) file grievances against him and complain about him. They just couldn't legally do anything until he did something that violated his contract. There's a ton of Trump supporters in the media, and in movies, and in TV shows. They're not all getting fired. The show wasn't doing very well, and she was apparently not easy to work with. Maybe they just wanted to let her go and this was a good way to do that. Who knows?

Personally, and with nothing to back it up other than my gut - which is useless and irrelevant, I fully concede that - my guess is that this is the crux of the Papa John Schnatter situation.   He handed them a get out of jail free card and they exercised it.   

Quote
And I didn't say Trump should be fired. In fact, I said this is a dangerous precedent in firing someone for bringing up their history. People should be given the chance to grow. Gunn showed a lot of signs of learning from his mistakes. Rosanne didn't really seem to (yet at least) and Trump definitely hasn't shown any of that.

And I would argue that "growth" shouldn't be a pre-requisite.   We've gotten to the point that beliefs and opinions are not treated equally, depending on the content of those beliefs.   For all the lines and nuances of free speech, the one sort of constant in all of it is that for the most part you CANNOT control the CONTENT of someone's speech.  There are exceptions - notably "hate speech" is NOT an exception - but even when there are controls on speech, more often than not they are time, place and manner controls, NOT content controls.   

I get that this is controversial, and I get that I risk being branded by association a "racist", "bigot", or "homophobe" but I don't believe that racist, homophobic or bigoted speech should be controlled.  I WANT to know if someone is a fucking asshole racist, so I can make decisions - for myself - accordingly.   I believe that these emotions can't survive in the bright light of day.  I believe that these ideas and thoughts fester when pushed underground, and in restricting the content of people's speech, you do exactly that.   

I think when called out for "racist speech" (again, assuming it is racist) I think the logical reaction - in today's hyper-partisan, hyper divisive society - isn't "hey, wow, you're right; we're all pink on the inside", it's more likely "f*** you, you commie pinko libtard".    And where does that get us?  Right back where we started, if not even further entrenched in our biases. 

Offline Adami

  • Moderator of awesomeness
  • *
  • Posts: 27373
Re: Can we just stop, please?
« Reply #176 on: July 23, 2018, 12:56:24 PM »
I am busy at the moment but I'll say one quick thing.

I agree that thought shouldn't be controlled. Luckily, it can't be.

That said, guided isn't controlled. If your kids came home and said "Hey dad, I've realized recently that the holocaust was a great thing and that I think black people are monkeys who should be enslaved", will your response be "I don't agree, but I respect your right to think that....have a lovely day kiddo!"? or will you try to guide your kid into not being a racist crazy person? I dunno. Maybe you really would be 100% cool with it, because it seems you believe that love and hate are equal and no different, and that hating groups of people is just as legitimate as....I dunno.....liking New York style pizza.

But like I said, I want the world to be a better place. A better world has no racism in it. I can't control anyone, nor would I if I could. That said, racism doesn't go away unless we actively try to make it go away, to some degree, beyond simply stating facts back and forth, which rarely results in anything at all in this context. We don't destroy racist people, but we try to not give them free platforms to make things worse.

I think our main disagreement is that (correct me if I'm wrong) you see ideologies and beliefs as black and white, as in none are better or worse than any others. Racism is no different than loving your neighbor. Hatred is no worse than being a liberal or whatever. We're going to continue to disagree about that, and I doubt this conversation will go much further if the crux is a mutual disagreement that shows no sign of changing.
fanticide.bandcamp.com

Offline Stadler

  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 14468
  • Gender: Male
  • Pointing out the "unfunny" since 2017!
Re: Can we just stop, please?
« Reply #177 on: July 23, 2018, 01:08:43 PM »
I'm really fascinated by how/when all of this really hit the fan.

I wasn't really an adult at the time, so I'm oblivious, but how did people like Andrew Dice Clay and Lisa Lampanelli (not asking if you like them or not) make it as far as they did without getting a modern day crucifixion? And now that they've made it, they seem to have entered this grandfathered in, untouchable territory. Even Michael Richards seems to have come out of his comedy club rant unscathed.   

I'm sure many people would be quick to blame the millennial, and I'm sure we contribute some, but I see the pitchforks with my aunts and uncles. They're even worse than people my age as far as I'm concerned.

I think about things like this all the time, great post.

Well, two things;  they weren't without controversy.  When Dice went to appear on SNL, Nora Dunn refused to appear, and Sinead O'Connor refused to perform.   You'll also notice that - at least Dice and Lampanelli - distanced themselves pretty significantly from the things they said.   Dice was "all about the character", and has done a number of serious dramatic roles recently that worked in contrast to his "Dice" character (Vinyl is a good example, as is Blue Jasmine and Blacklist).  I didn't watch it, but supposedly "Dice" was about how he deals with exactly what we're talking about.

I think generally - having grown up in that time frame - there was no thought to being "offended".  You're baffled by Dice and Lisa Lampanelli (you could add Archie Bunker to that as well) but I'm equally baffled by why people need to be on Twitter, and why kids shoot up schools.  I think the answer to all of these questions are related.  We didn't have this need to set everyone straight.  I got bullied and I either fought back one on one or I walked away.    Sometimes I kicked some ass, and sometimes I got my ass kicked.  We used to play football in the school yard, and if you had a beef, somehow it always worked out that you'd be on the other side of the dude you were bitching with.  At some point, you'd get the ball (or vice versa) and that other dude would put a hit on you (or vice versa).  You'd scrap and after a while they'd pull you apart and, provided you didn't bite or try to kick them in the nuts, it'd be over.  It wasn't like we were better than the kids today because we didn't shoot up schools, but it just never occurred to us.  Likewise, we didn't have this need to bully others to seeing things our way politically, musically, or otherwise.  You didn't like Dice?   You didn't listen.   It was that simple.   We, uh, dare I say, tended our own garden.   

Offline cramx3

  • Chillest of the chill
  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 19436
  • Gender: Male
    • The Home of cramx3
Re: Can we just stop, please?
« Reply #178 on: July 23, 2018, 01:39:41 PM »
Well those are specific examples, I often think about South Park.  A pretty offensive show by many standards, although not offensive to one group, but to all.  I kind of figured that's why they don't get lumped into anything, but I mean they did a whole episode making fun of the Kramer incident. 

But what if that show was new today?  Would it get criticized?  Would comedy central even agree to air such a new show? 

And I know that's another specific example, but it does kind of seem like anything that used to be offensive is still allowed to be

Offline bosk1

  • Bow down to Boskaryus
  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 5425
  • Kabbalah
Re: Can we just stop, please?
« Reply #179 on: July 23, 2018, 01:47:41 PM »
I think our main disagreement is that (correct me if I'm wrong) you see ideologies and beliefs as black and white, as in none are better or worse than any others. Racism is no different than loving your neighbor. Hatred is no worse than being a liberal or whatever. We're going to continue to disagree about that, and I doubt this conversation will go much further if the crux is a mutual disagreement that shows no sign of changing.

I guess I should just shut up and let Stadler speak for himself.  But I'm in complete disbelief that you could think Stadler thinks anything remotely similar to what you just posted.  Honestly, sometimes I think you intentionally misstate people just to have something to argue against.
"The Supreme Court of the United States has descended from the disciplined legal reasoning of John Marshall and Joseph Story to the mystical aphorisms of the fortune cookie."

Offline axeman90210

  • Official Minister of Awesome, and Veronica knows my name!
  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 11757
  • Gender: Male
  • Never go full Nick
Re: Can we just stop, please?
« Reply #180 on: July 23, 2018, 01:54:22 PM »
Not sure if this is the right place, but....

http://www.msn.com/en-us/movies/news/guardians-of-the-galaxy-star-quits-twitter-after-james-gunn-firing/ar-BBKZm8U?ocid=ientp

More interested in the Gunn firing than some actor who I've never heard of quitting Twitter (though I applaud them; perhaps we should ALL quit Twitter).

I've gone back and forth about this in my head over the last few days. The stuff he tweeted was most definitely awful/inappropriate, full stop. That said, my understanding is that he had since publicly apologized for them a while back, and this was known to Disney when they first brought him in to work on GotG. It seems like it's part of a deliberate witch hunt by Cernovich to dig up old comments/jokes about anybody whose politics they don't like and make a fuss about them. Kind of hard to watch a guy who, by all accounts is a better person now, go down in flames courtesy of a guy who has trafficked in pizza-gate.

But isn't what's good for the goose, good for the gander?

Adami made the point about there being nuance/differences between that and a "super racist tweet", and while I don't see any difference between the two - hate is hate, in my view, and any attempt to discern the difference between hate is another word for "rationalization" - we've already crossed the line where the "mention" of race is in fact "racism", so why are we firing ANY of these people?   

And I haven't even gotten to the cottage business of digging up Trump's tweets from 150 years ago in order to hang him as a "hypocrite". 

I'm not drawing any distinction between what he said and what Roseanne said (since she's what has come up for comparison purposes). What I am drawing a distinction between is something(s) someone said nearly a decade ago and subsequently apologized for, and something someone said this month. If you take any one of James Gunn's tweets and drop them into his timeline now, I've got no problem with him getting the heave ho. Similarly, I didn't think Roseanne should have been fired for all the dumb stuff she said before her show got rebooted (e.g. the Susan Rice ape comment), but once she said what she said back in May I had no problem with her going.
Photobucket sucks.

Offline Stadler

  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 14468
  • Gender: Male
  • Pointing out the "unfunny" since 2017!
Re: Can we just stop, please?
« Reply #181 on: July 23, 2018, 01:54:46 PM »
I am busy at the moment but I'll say one quick thing.

I agree that thought shouldn't be controlled. Luckily, it can't be.

That said, guided isn't controlled. If your kids came home and said "Hey dad, I've realized recently that the holocaust was a great thing and that I think black people are monkeys who should be enslaved", will your response be "I don't agree, but I respect your right to think that....have a lovely day kiddo!"? or will you try to guide your kid into not being a racist crazy person? I dunno. Maybe you really would be 100% cool with it, because it seems you believe that love and hate are equal and no different, and that hating groups of people is just as legitimate as....I dunno.....liking New York style pizza.

I would do neither, specifically.   I've had this conversation (sort of) already.  I would engage them.  Ask them to defend that position.  I would show them my evidence.   I can't now, but 15 years ago, I could ask them to talk to my uncle Alex who landed in Normandy. 

Don't belittle this with snark.  That I find them equal - they are but emotions - or legitimate - I don't get to tell you what to think and you don't get to tell me what to think - is not to say I consider FACT and OPINION to be equal and inseparable. It's also not to say that I don't value one over the other.  I believe that love is far more productive and positive an investment than I do hate.   I don't consider this to be a battle of subjective opinions.   I wouldn't bully them into thinking what I want them to think (or what society expects them to think) but I damn well would demand - and HAVE demanded - that they account for the facts, not opinions, that contradict their position.   What I won't do is tell someone ELSE how to relatively value any of those things. 

I'm thankful my kid is intellectually very capable of understanding this stuff.  I challenge her all the time in this way.  Her school is exceedingly - cloyingly - liberal (a family member of someone we ridicule readily and aggressively on this site went to her school, and the school basically disavows that they ever went there) in a way that makes her uncomfortable.  She has said to me "Dad, why doesn't this feel right to me?" and rather than say "because they're ridiculous libtards who don't know shit and just want a welfare state!" I ask her to dig in and figure it out.  I may give her a source to look at - JFK has come up; Thomas Friedman has come up; I suggested she read "The Audacity of Hope" at some point - but I won't tell her what to think. 

Quote
But like I said, I want the world to be a better place. A better world has no racism in it. I can't control anyone, nor would I if I could. That said, racism doesn't go away unless we actively try to make it go away, to some degree, beyond simply stating facts back and forth, which rarely results in anything at all in this context. We don't destroy racist people, but we try to not give them free platforms to make things worse.

Well, you're assuming that "better world = world without racism".  I disagree with that, pragmatically, if not conceptually.  Not the "racism" part, but the focusing on racism as the variable.   I believe the world is a better place when we tolerate.  Not the PC "we really mean ACCEPTANCE, not TOLERANCE" tolerance, but true, "I take you as you are, for better or worse" tolerance.   Think about it; even if you ARE a racist, you can be TOLERANT.   We don't need people to "not be racist", we need them to tolerate those around them.  I agree that "racism" is a bad thing, but it causes harm by marginalizing a group, and creating divisiveness.   SO DOES FORCED TOLERANCE.   You're not changing minds, you're just amping up the war.  I believe that there will ALWAYS be some percentage - I don't know what it is (my guess is around 4% - that will be "racist" or "bigoted" simply as an act of contrarianism.  So with that, how do we all get along and still make the world a "better place"?

Quote
I think our main disagreement is that (correct me if I'm wrong) you see ideologies and beliefs as black and white, as in none are better or worse than any others. Racism is no different than loving your neighbor. Hatred is no worse than being a liberal or whatever. We're going to continue to disagree about that, and I doubt this conversation will go much further if the crux is a mutual disagreement that shows no sign of changing.

Well, you're conflating "ideology" with "action".   That's where we disagree.   As a pure idea, no, "hate" and "love" aren't "better" or "worse" in an absolute sense.  But they do have relative worth.  What I'm talking about is judging someone - and acting on that judgment - because you disagree with the way they value that relative worth. 

It's not that I think "hatred" is no worse than "being a liberal"; I think that's a false equivalency.   You're essentially saying "being happy" is no worse than "building a bridge".   I believe there are holistic benefits to love over hate; I get that there are societal benefits to defaulting to love over hate.  I know for me, I FEEL BETTER when I choose love over hate (or at least, choose to reject hate).    Where I'm talking about, though, is in the influence of others, and judging the valuation of others.  Judging them based on their selection, not on their action.  In the assigning of subjective valuations of relative 'hates'.   Ask 100 people.  "Is it okay to "hate" homosexuals?" and "Is it okay to "hate" adults that molest infants and toddlers?"   The numbers will not likely be the same, even though at heart, both of those subgroups likely have no choice in the matter.   We can probably rationalize why those numbers aren't the same, but why is one hate better than another, given what I said about choice?   It's all a subjective judgment; which is fine, but don't suppose to make that judgment for everyone else.

Online portnoy311

  • Posts: 936
Re: Can we just stop, please?
« Reply #182 on: July 23, 2018, 02:07:47 PM »
I think our main disagreement is that (correct me if I'm wrong) you see ideologies and beliefs as black and white, as in none are better or worse than any others. Racism is no different than loving your neighbor. Hatred is no worse than being a liberal or whatever. We're going to continue to disagree about that, and I doubt this conversation will go much further if the crux is a mutual disagreement that shows no sign of changing.

I guess I should just shut up and let Stadler speak for himself.  But I'm in complete disbelief that you could think Stadler thinks anything remotely similar to what you just posted.  Honestly, sometimes I think you intentionally misstate people just to have something to argue against.

I believe you owe Adami an apology in light of Stadler's post.

Offline Adami

  • Moderator of awesomeness
  • *
  • Posts: 27373
Re: Can we just stop, please?
« Reply #183 on: July 23, 2018, 02:34:13 PM »
I think our main disagreement is that (correct me if I'm wrong) you see ideologies and beliefs as black and white, as in none are better or worse than any others. Racism is no different than loving your neighbor. Hatred is no worse than being a liberal or whatever. We're going to continue to disagree about that, and I doubt this conversation will go much further if the crux is a mutual disagreement that shows no sign of changing.

I guess I should just shut up and let Stadler speak for himself.  But I'm in complete disbelief that you could think Stadler thinks anything remotely similar to what you just posted.  Honestly, sometimes I think you intentionally misstate people just to have something to argue against.

I barely post on here because I strongly dislike arguing, which I've stated many many times. Sometimes I make the mistake of posting when I see something that just seems odd to me.

I am actually pretty offended that you think what you said, but I can't do anything about that. Such is life.

I dunno. Maybe I'm an idiot. I know I'm not as smart as most of the other posters on this thread. I know I can't put great 4 paragraph posts to perfectly defend and explain my position. I apparently also can't read certain posts very well. So, I dunno, maybe I'm not smart enough to post in P/R, but I can unequivocally say that I don't intentionally misstate anything. My goal is simply to make things better, that doesn't accomplish it. Sadly I just seem to make things worse.

I guess I'll stick to posting about The Middle East or psychology, since those are what my degrees are in.

fanticide.bandcamp.com

Offline bosk1

  • Bow down to Boskaryus
  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 5425
  • Kabbalah
Re: Can we just stop, please?
« Reply #184 on: July 23, 2018, 02:47:26 PM »
I'm not saying you "need" to stick to one topic or the other, or that you aren't intelligent enough to post here.  But stop mischaracterizing people's posts to the point of absurdity.  It's incredibly offensive and counterproductive.
"The Supreme Court of the United States has descended from the disciplined legal reasoning of John Marshall and Joseph Story to the mystical aphorisms of the fortune cookie."

Offline Kattelox

  • Cart Corral Crusader
  • Posts: 5327
Re: Can we just stop, please?
« Reply #185 on: July 23, 2018, 03:20:58 PM »
Just my two cents but I didn't at all get that from Adami's post(s) and I think that's a much more offensive characterization of the points he was trying to make... I'm offended that you offended Adami by claiming to be offended!  :biggrin:
RYM || Last.FM
"No Christ, God, nor religion gave me the answers I was looking for" - Timo Tolkki

Offline Adami

  • Moderator of awesomeness
  • *
  • Posts: 27373
Re: Can we just stop, please?
« Reply #186 on: July 23, 2018, 03:24:40 PM »
Just my two cents but I didn't at all get that from Adami's post(s) and I think that's a much more offensive characterization of the points he was trying to make... I'm offended that you offended Adami by claiming to be offended!  :biggrin:

Itís fine. Clearly if my posts are getting reported, then Iím doing something wrong. Iíll do my best to incorporate Bosks feedback to avoid these kinds of misunderstandings.

If nothing else, itís been a good lesson in assuming the other persons intentions. Which Iím more than guilty of at times.
fanticide.bandcamp.com

Online portnoy311

  • Posts: 936
Re: Can we just stop, please?
« Reply #187 on: July 23, 2018, 03:48:07 PM »
But Adami wasn't that far off at all from Stadler's view. Stadler clarified what they were, and he really wasn't that far off. Notice how Stadler wasn't offended and wrote a clarification. I know Stadler well enough to say he knows not everyone shares his worldview. His response was meaty and on topic because of that.
« Last Edit: July 23, 2018, 04:09:21 PM by portnoy311 »

Offline Adami

  • Moderator of awesomeness
  • *
  • Posts: 27373
Re: Can we just stop, please?
« Reply #188 on: July 23, 2018, 03:53:47 PM »
But Adami wasn't that far off at all from Stadler's view. Stadler clarified what they were, and he really wasn't that far off. Notice how Stadler wasn't offended and wrote a clarification. I know Stadler well enough to say he knows not everyone shares his worldview. His response was meaty and on topic because of that. O

Itís fine. Re-reading my post, I did a piss poor job getting my point across. Itís my bad.
fanticide.bandcamp.com

Offline bosk1

  • Bow down to Boskaryus
  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 5425
  • Kabbalah
Re: Can we just stop, please?
« Reply #189 on: July 23, 2018, 04:07:07 PM »
I dunno, maybe I did a piss poor job of understanding where you were placing your emphasis, and thus misunderstood your main point.  But "Racism is no different than loving your neighbor. Hatred is no worse than being a liberal or whatever" just jumped out at me as being such a blatant misunderstanding of Stadler's point of view that I just didn't see how you could possibly really think that.  I guess I just missed the point and failed to see the forest for the trees.  I think Stadler put the focus back on where he thought it should be, so if he wasn't bothered by the details, I shouldn't be either.  Sorry for the misunderstanding.  Carry on.
"The Supreme Court of the United States has descended from the disciplined legal reasoning of John Marshall and Joseph Story to the mystical aphorisms of the fortune cookie."

Offline jingle.boy

  • DTF's resident deceased dictator
  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 25726
  • Gender: Male
  • The changing of the worrd is inevitabre!!!
Re: Can we just stop, please?
« Reply #190 on: July 24, 2018, 04:42:20 AM »
I'll jump on the defense of Adami wagon here.  Perhaps he did mischaracterize Stadler with a couple of his points - to which Stads beautifully clarified in his response - but I think it was completely unfair to state that he sometimes "intentionally misstates people just to have something to argue against" ... or "past the point of absurdity".  I didn't see anything in his post that was completely absurd.  Stadler has often stated things along the line of it being ok (or at least, understandable) for some to have and express hate or racism... which is the crux of what I interpreted Adami commenting around.

She has said to me "Dad, why doesn't this feel right to me?" and rather than say "because they're ridiculous libtards who don't know shit and just want a welfare state!" I ask her to dig in and figure it out.  I may give her a source to look at - JFK has come up; Thomas Friedman has come up; I suggested she read "The Audacity of Hope" at some point - but I won't tell her what to think. 

Seems to me like your guiding her to further explore her thoughts and viewpoints ... exactly what Adami was saying.  Perhaps in a different way, but you're still guiding her.  Just because YOU refuse to rely on substantiated opinions that can or usually are based on fact (I'm not saying to rely on them OVER facts... just to have them as part of the equation), doesn't mean that it isn't relevant or that others can't / shouldn't.

To me, it seems tantamount to exactly what you've posted recently

To some, if "racism" rears it's ugly head, it's a dealbreaker, no questions asked.   For others, "racism" is a factor to be weighed against all others.   There has to be mutual respect for these different standards, otherwise, it's like telling a guy "Hey, you shouldn't think your wife is hot; her eyes are too close together."  Not your call, bro.

Replace "racism" with "opinions", and do you feel that paragraph still holds up?
I didn't know I could handle another 10 inches and it was rough but in the end I'm glad I did it.
warflwwcesfw.
That's meme-speak for "We are really f*****g lazy when we can't eve say full words".

Offline eric42434224

  • Posts: 3397
  • Gender: Male
  • Wilson
Re: Can we just stop, please?
« Reply #191 on: July 24, 2018, 07:54:57 AM »
I think our main disagreement is that (correct me if I'm wrong) you see ideologies and beliefs as black and white, as in none are better or worse than any others. Racism is no different than loving your neighbor. Hatred is no worse than being a liberal or whatever. We're going to continue to disagree about that, and I doubt this conversation will go much further if the crux is a mutual disagreement that shows no sign of changing.

I guess I should just shut up and let Stadler speak for himself.  But I'm in complete disbelief that you could think Stadler thinks anything remotely similar to what you just posted.  Honestly, sometimes I think you intentionally misstate people just to have something to argue against.

As a moderator, you must know that you are going to be held to a higher standard.  You are right to question adamiís post, but that last sentence is not only not necessary to get your point across, it is actually inflammatory and does exactly what you accuse adami of. 
The situation worked itself out in a matter of a few posts.  It was clarified and ended up being inoffensive and not far off.
Just my two cents
Oh shit, you're right!

rumborak

Rumborak to me 10/29

Offline Stadler

  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 14468
  • Gender: Male
  • Pointing out the "unfunny" since 2017!
Re: Can we just stop, please?
« Reply #192 on: July 24, 2018, 08:03:35 AM »
Seems to me like your guiding her to further explore her thoughts and viewpoints ... exactly what Adami was saying.  Perhaps in a different way, but you're still guiding her.  Just because YOU refuse to rely on substantiated opinions that can or usually are based on fact (I'm not saying to rely on them OVER facts... just to have them as part of the equation), doesn't mean that it isn't relevant or that others can't / shouldn't.

To me, it seems tantamount to exactly what you've posted recently

Well, to some degree, this is a semantics game, since every interaction with your child is "guiding" in some form or fashion.  I meant it in the specific sense, here, in that I am not telling her any of the conclusions to have. Sure, I'm "guiding" her in the context of teaching her research skills and analytical skills and patience skills, but at the end of the day, if she goes through all that and comes back and says "yep, dad, n*****s are inferior." I am not going to tell her to change her mind, I'm not going to throw her out of the house, I'm not going to deny her food and water... it is what it is.  I don't - or wouldn't - hate her, any more than I would "hate" someone who drew a (to me) equally unsupported conclusion like "guns bans work" or "taxing the 1% is the solution to our financial woes".  There's no emotion in that.

I forget if I mentioned it here or not, but I've recently been sucked into the vortex that is "Quora".  It's a fascinating, and sometimes enlightening platform, but it's just as often MADDENING.   Questions like "Why is Donald Trump so afraid of Robert Mueller?" and "Is there any doubt that Donald Trump loses the election in 2020?"   And I spend a decent amount of time telling people that insist on calling Trump "Drumpf" (one woman calls him "Yuck", and I've taken to starting every reply with "Who is 'Yuck'?").   None of this is meaningful dialogue.  None of this is intellectual discourse. This is PURE EMOTION, and yet people continue to try to rationalize it, justify it, and QUANTIFY it.  "Yuck" woman was trying to tell me her opinions - I think we were talking about her in-depth analysis that "Yuck disgusted her" - are "well informed" and based on "years of research".   And I point blank asked her: "You needed 'years of research' to realize you were 'disgusted'?"  She then accused me of "mansplaining" and that's when I lost interest.    But do you see the point here?  An EMOTIONAL reaction doesn't qualify as "FACT", and doesn't in and of itself indicate FACT.   


Quote
To some, if "racism" rears it's ugly head, it's a dealbreaker, no questions asked.   For others, "racism" is a factor to be weighed against all others.   There has to be mutual respect for these different standards, otherwise, it's like telling a guy "Hey, you shouldn't think your wife is hot; her eyes are too close together."  Not your call, bro.

Replace "racism" with "opinions", and do you feel that paragraph still holds up?

Absolutely, since to some degree I consider "racism" to BE an opinion. That's the whole point of this discussion right there.    When it comes to "racism", we are not talking about "2+2=4", except in the most egregious examples, and even then not, since we can rarely agree on what IS an egregious example (Ferguson, for example). 

I've been thinking about this for the past 12 hours or so, first and foremost because I respect Adami, and I don't want bad blood here.  I bear some responsibility in not articulating a very complex idea in a simple enough manner.  But what we have here is really the confluence of two things:   emotion (subjective) and fact (objective). I'm not arguing the objective.  It is what it is.  What I'm saying is that I don't feel we can objectively quantify the EMOTIONAL side of this, and that goes double when it applies to other people.   We've gotten to the point here in America where even the MENTION of race becomes "racism", and largely because someone had an EMOTIONAL reaction to that mention (I put Sarasota in this category).   I don't believe we can or should prioritize one persons' emotional reaction over that of another person, whether it involves race or not.   SO in that sense, no, "racism" isn't more or less important - or different, I think is the word that caused the problem - than love. 

Offline jingle.boy

  • DTF's resident deceased dictator
  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 25726
  • Gender: Male
  • The changing of the worrd is inevitabre!!!
Re: Can we just stop, please?
« Reply #193 on: July 24, 2018, 08:15:53 AM »
Quote
To some, if "racism" rears it's ugly head, it's a dealbreaker, no questions asked.   For others, "racism" is a factor to be weighed against all others.   There has to be mutual respect for these different standards, otherwise, it's like telling a guy "Hey, you shouldn't think your wife is hot; her eyes are too close together."  Not your call, bro.

Replace "racism" with "opinions", and do you feel that paragraph still holds up?

Absolutely, since to some degree I consider "racism" to BE an opinion.

Maybe I'm just thick, but I'm having trouble reconciling things here.  You routinely challenge/discredit/disqualify statements that are made based on opinion/emotion, yet you agree that there needs to be mutual respect for different standards (eg, decisions/statements/conclusions based on opinion vs decisions/statements/conclusions based on fact).
I didn't know I could handle another 10 inches and it was rough but in the end I'm glad I did it.
warflwwcesfw.
That's meme-speak for "We are really f*****g lazy when we can't eve say full words".

Offline bosk1

  • Bow down to Boskaryus
  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 5425
  • Kabbalah
Re: Can we just stop, please?
« Reply #194 on: July 24, 2018, 08:33:23 AM »
Thanks for the input above, but I really don't need a thread of junior moderators offering their two cents on every moderator decision.  Keep the threads on topic, please.
"The Supreme Court of the United States has descended from the disciplined legal reasoning of John Marshall and Joseph Story to the mystical aphorisms of the fortune cookie."

Offline Kattelox

  • Cart Corral Crusader
  • Posts: 5327
Re: Can we just stop, please?
« Reply #195 on: July 24, 2018, 09:57:47 AM »
"Junior moderators"... wow  :lol

Stadler, for your health, for your sanity, stay off Quora. Between that and Twitter you're going to give yourself palpitations.
RYM || Last.FM
"No Christ, God, nor religion gave me the answers I was looking for" - Timo Tolkki

Offline jingle.boy

  • DTF's resident deceased dictator
  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 25726
  • Gender: Male
  • The changing of the worrd is inevitabre!!!
Re: Can we just stop, please?
« Reply #196 on: July 24, 2018, 10:25:51 AM »
Thanks for the input above, but I really don't need a thread of junior moderators offering their two cents on every moderator decision.  Keep the threads on topic, please.

For starters, it was your post that started to take this off topic, firing a salvo at Adami.  Second, as the global moderator, one would think you'd be above above personal attacks to those that differ with your viewpoint.  The responses you refer to had nothing to do with a "moderator decision".  Show me where you made a decision in this thread, and we questioned you as moderator.  We were hardly moderating this thread, but offering different perspective and interpretation regarding Adami's post.
I didn't know I could handle another 10 inches and it was rough but in the end I'm glad I did it.
warflwwcesfw.
That's meme-speak for "We are really f*****g lazy when we can't eve say full words".

Offline bosk1

  • Bow down to Boskaryus
  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 5425
  • Kabbalah
Re: Can we just stop, please?
« Reply #197 on: July 24, 2018, 10:45:13 AM »
And it is my last post that reminded people to get back on topic, not stray from it even farther.  This thread is not about arguing with me or parsing my words.  Either get on topic or don't post.  No offense, but if your name isn't Adami, you don't really have any business commenting on the situation.  And if your name actually IS Adami, then you would know that you handled the situation 100% appropriately by taking it to PM and helping me resolve it.  That does not need to be a further topic of discussion in this thread.  And it won't be.
"The Supreme Court of the United States has descended from the disciplined legal reasoning of John Marshall and Joseph Story to the mystical aphorisms of the fortune cookie."

Offline axeman90210

  • Official Minister of Awesome, and Veronica knows my name!
  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 11757
  • Gender: Male
  • Never go full Nick
Re: Can we just stop, please?
« Reply #198 on: July 24, 2018, 11:10:15 AM »
And as a further reminder, to the best of my knowledge I'm the only duly elected Junior Moderator in DTF history, so I'll kindly ask you all to keep from encroaching on my turf :lol
Photobucket sucks.

Offline Kattelox

  • Cart Corral Crusader
  • Posts: 5327
Re: Can we just stop, please?
« Reply #199 on: July 24, 2018, 11:28:26 AM »
Ya'll need a hug or ten.
RYM || Last.FM
"No Christ, God, nor religion gave me the answers I was looking for" - Timo Tolkki

Offline bosk1

  • Bow down to Boskaryus
  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 5425
  • Kabbalah
Re: Can we just stop, please?
« Reply #200 on: July 24, 2018, 01:39:59 PM »
I love hugs.
"The Supreme Court of the United States has descended from the disciplined legal reasoning of John Marshall and Joseph Story to the mystical aphorisms of the fortune cookie."

Offline Adami

  • Moderator of awesomeness
  • *
  • Posts: 27373
Re: Can we just stop, please?
« Reply #201 on: July 24, 2018, 02:02:46 PM »
fanticide.bandcamp.com

Offline bosk1

  • Bow down to Boskaryus
  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 5425
  • Kabbalah
Re: Can we just stop, please?
« Reply #202 on: July 24, 2018, 02:05:01 PM »
:D
"The Supreme Court of the United States has descended from the disciplined legal reasoning of John Marshall and Joseph Story to the mystical aphorisms of the fortune cookie."

Offline Stadler

  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 14468
  • Gender: Male
  • Pointing out the "unfunny" since 2017!
Re: Can we just stop, please?
« Reply #203 on: July 24, 2018, 02:09:45 PM »
Quote
To some, if "racism" rears it's ugly head, it's a dealbreaker, no questions asked.   For others, "racism" is a factor to be weighed against all others.   There has to be mutual respect for these different standards, otherwise, it's like telling a guy "Hey, you shouldn't think your wife is hot; her eyes are too close together."  Not your call, bro.

Replace "racism" with "opinions", and do you feel that paragraph still holds up?

Absolutely, since to some degree I consider "racism" to BE an opinion.

Maybe I'm just thick, but I'm having trouble reconciling things here.  You routinely challenge/discredit/disqualify statements that are made based on opinion/emotion, yet you agree that there needs to be mutual respect for different standards (eg, decisions/statements/conclusions based on opinion vs decisions/statements/conclusions based on fact).

I do and I do. The former part is about forcing others to live by your opinions.  The latter is showing respect for those opinions.  The two are not mutually exclusive.    If you think that abortion is a crime against humanity, I respect your opinion.  BUT, don't make every woman in the U.S. live by it.   

That's where (I believe) this country has gone off the rails.  We've elevated "opinions" beyond what is good (i.e. an idea for others to consider) and into the realm of bad (i.e. gospel that others should live by at the risk of enduring bullying, shaming and other "consequences" for failing to adhere).   

Offline Stadler

  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 14468
  • Gender: Male
  • Pointing out the "unfunny" since 2017!
Re: Can we just stop, please?
« Reply #204 on: July 24, 2018, 02:20:55 PM »
"Junior moderators"... wow  :lol

Stadler, for your health, for your sanity, stay off Quora. Between that and Twitter you're going to give yourself palpitations.

Holy crap, you're right.

Quick twitter story:  I have 16 people I follow, and 6 followers.  I was sitting with my wife and daughter the other night and I told them about how I made a post that day.  I was reading a tweet on @Sternshow (Howard Stern) about this guy "Bobo" who tries like hell to get on the air continually.  And I wrote "What Howard doesn't get yet is that with satellite you can skip dipshits like Bobo.  he's not funny, he's a troll.   He comes on?  Boom! "Hair Nation" here I come!"

I actually got a DM from Bobo, telling me to "Go back to my 6 followers".  I was so proud. I tried to reply, but he blocked me!   Plus, Hugh Jackman is one of my followers! 

Turns out I included Bobo's hashtag in the reply.  Who knew?   It also turns out that it isn't the REAL Hugh Jackman, just some boner that retweets everything from the REAL Hugh Jackman.

I gave about 30 minutes of gut-busting laughter to my wife and daughter.  I felt so old.   :)   

Offline cramx3

  • Chillest of the chill
  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 19436
  • Gender: Male
    • The Home of cramx3
Re: Can we just stop, please?
« Reply #205 on: July 24, 2018, 02:34:00 PM »
If you reply to a tweet that mentioned someone, your reply also mentions them by default.

But that's funny, and I'm a Howard fan but I don't have satelite so it's only in rentals that I get to listen but I am aware of Bobo and just seems like in character for him to do that on twitter  :lol

Offline jingle.boy

  • DTF's resident deceased dictator
  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 25726
  • Gender: Male
  • The changing of the worrd is inevitabre!!!
Re: Can we just stop, please?
« Reply #206 on: July 24, 2018, 04:04:31 PM »
Quote
To some, if "racism" rears it's ugly head, it's a dealbreaker, no questions asked.   For others, "racism" is a factor to be weighed against all others.   There has to be mutual respect for these different standards, otherwise, it's like telling a guy "Hey, you shouldn't think your wife is hot; her eyes are too close together."  Not your call, bro.

Replace "racism" with "opinions", and do you feel that paragraph still holds up?

Absolutely, since to some degree I consider "racism" to BE an opinion.

Maybe I'm just thick, but I'm having trouble reconciling things here.  You routinely challenge/discredit/disqualify statements that are made based on opinion/emotion, yet you agree that there needs to be mutual respect for different standards (eg, decisions/statements/conclusions based on opinion vs decisions/statements/conclusions based on fact).

I do and I do. The former part is about forcing others to live by your opinions.  The latter is showing respect for those opinions.  The two are not mutually exclusive.

I'm pretty sure I see you're point, and it's a valid one.  None-the-less, just be aware that, for the average person, using opinion/emotion as the primary basis for their viewpoint isn't necessarily wrong or bad - if using opinion/emotion as the standard for one's viewpoint, then they are still owed respect for that standard, even if it's different than your own.  I'm not trying to say you're disrespectful (you're quite the opposite.... most times  ;)), but your counterpoints sometimes do suggest the 'opinion/emotion' standard is irrelevant/illogical.  Example... your constant scorn of "common sense".  For many, common sense IS a good enough standard; for you it isn't.  That doesn't mean either is more right or more wrong than the other.

Also, not everyone is trying to force their opinion on others.  Some do, like 'yuck lady' most likely is, but I think a lot of the discourse around here doesn't necessarily go down that path.
I didn't know I could handle another 10 inches and it was rough but in the end I'm glad I did it.
warflwwcesfw.
That's meme-speak for "We are really f*****g lazy when we can't eve say full words".

Offline Stadler

  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 14468
  • Gender: Male
  • Pointing out the "unfunny" since 2017!
Re: Can we just stop, please?
« Reply #207 on: July 24, 2018, 04:24:53 PM »
Point taken, but I'm going to chalk that up to "drafting error".   It's "illogical" when used to apply to everyone as a rule.    I don't say it this way, but the problem with "common sense" is the idea that it's "common".  That it applies to everyone.   

The funny thing is, if you ask my family, I'M the emotional one.  My daughter, step-daughter and step-son had a side bet at our wedding WHEN I would cry.  Not "IF", but "WHEN".    Fuckers.   My heart bleeds for those kids in Mexico.  I believe that now that I'm 50 and with four kids, I literally have one obligation in this world:  give them as much runway as I can.   Everything else comes second. If that's not an emotional position to take, I don't know what is.   The difference is, I would never in a million years force YOU to make that same prioritization.    It's why the Democrats moralizing is so problematic to me.  I actually agree with their positions almost 100% (guns is really the only exception); I just don't want to force it on everyone else.