Author Topic: Can we just stop, please?  (Read 5371 times)

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Offline Stadler

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Re: Can we just stop, please?
« Reply #105 on: February 16, 2018, 09:51:50 AM »
But we are having the conversation. It's happening. You can research it if you want. Most conversations like that are being had between professionals, not usually making CNN or FOX.

That doesn't give you guys the right to say anything at all and expect everyone to shut up and take it.

I think you should be able to ask whatever questions you want, and everyone should treat you with respect, as long as the questions are sincere and not to make a point as an argument.

"Are transgender people born that way or does something happen to make them that way?" Fine question. Not terribly important, but a fine question nonetheless. People should discuss it respectively. Sadly we don't, but we should.

"Are transgender people REALLY wanting us to think they're born that way? REALLY?!?!?" That is not a sincere question and will understandably be met with defensiveness and offense.

So having the conversation is fine. HOW we have that conversation really matters though.

But like I said, if I post on twitter "Are Christians (picking them because they're the largest majority) mentally ill for their beliefs?", that would be met with all the same anger that you're against. Yet that's NOT a conversation anyone is looking to have, because the people in power have just assumed that it's not a problem or an issue worth discussing.

So while the conversations are fine to have, WHAT we have them about is a sign of a major power differential and you're expecting minorities to constantly defend their very existence to the satisfaction of the majority, who never have to defend or converse about their stuff at all.

I think you're irreparably mixing apples and oranges here.   I get your point, but I don't think the analogy holds.  (Not relevant, but I think a fair question is "Is RELIGION a mental illness", since fundamentally there isn't a difference between worshiping Jesus (Christian), God (Judaism) or Allah (Muslim).   And even then, it's a poorly phrased question.) 

I think part of the problem is the "power differential" idea.  That ought not to have any factor here.   We're not voting.  We're not buying things.   And trying to "swing" this so-called "power differential" with the power of social media is not productive to the underlying facts.   It's one thing to respond to someone who says "I hate Dream Theater and think John Myung is a loud-mouthed asshole". That's purely an opinion, and we can, with almost no standard whatsoever and no real ability to measure it, debate it ad infinitum.  But some of things we're talking about are measurable.  And as such, origins matter.   It matters DEEPLY whether - to use your example - transgender is nature or nuture.   We address fetal alcohol syndrome very differently than we address, say, Down's Syndrome.     

 

Offline Stadler

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Re: Can we just stop, please?
« Reply #106 on: February 16, 2018, 09:53:27 AM »
But you're doing exactly what I'm railing against.  You're not really listening to the ARGUMENT, you're commenting on the fact that I'm (presumably) not being "sensitive" enough in my reference.   Fair point, personally, since I don't at all want to be insensitive, but still.   The point is, EVEN IF I'M WRONG we should be having the conversation ABOUT the topic, not finding ways to stop it from happening.

I'm not at all interested in "curing" someone.  If you follow me on other points, I'm nothing if not consistent; if someone of sound mind and full consent wants to change their gender, they should be able to do so, full stop.   This isn't about stopping people from transitioning and making them more like me.  It's about making them as complete a human as they can be.  Right now, transitioning is the best way (or so it seems).  The one person I know that transitioned was troubled before, and is better now but is still struggling.  I think we owe it to her (yes, I did that correctly) to know as much about why she felt she had to do that as we do for why some 50-year old doesn't bone up like he used to.

Well there goes that good start...  :P   It seems we're drifting back into the problem I often have in our exchanges (problems wich are more often than not just me being a dick I'll gladly concede)  wich you say want to have a conversation but you only want to have it on your narrowly defineed terms and anything else you consider to be bullying somehow.

I never once said or even implied that Adami was "bullying me".  I don't think I've ever respected ANYONE that disagreed with me so openly and consistently more than I respect Adami, and I learn from him in almost every post.   And you can't really criticize me for directing the conversation when the conversation is ABOUT directing the conversation.  It's the very subject we're discussing.   

Offline Adami

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Re: Can we just stop, please?
« Reply #107 on: February 16, 2018, 10:19:51 AM »
I don't think I've ever respected ANYONE that disagreed with me so openly and consistently more than I respect Adami, and I learn from him in almost every post. 

Will get to your other post when I have free time later today, but I just wanted to say that I completely disagree with you here.

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Offline sylvan

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Offline sylvan

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Re: Can we just stop, please?
« Reply #109 on: June 11, 2018, 02:22:52 PM »
Oh yeah, and...

Robert DeNiro

Lolz

Offline gmillerdrake

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Re: Can we just stop, please?
« Reply #110 on: June 11, 2018, 04:42:20 PM »
Oh yeah, and...

Robert DeNiro

Lolz

Yeah....his behavior and antics over the past few years has pretty much ruined him in my eyes. Used to love the dudes acting but he's entered Alec Baldwin territory now. I can watch and enjoy liberal actors just fine. It's when they take that next leap like Balwin/deNiro/O'Donnell where it changes for me.
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Offline KevShmev

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Re: Can we just stop, please?
« Reply #111 on: June 11, 2018, 06:23:10 PM »
I eat Chick Fil-A 1-2 times a week, every week.  :coolio

Offline jingle.boy

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Re: Can we just stop, please?
« Reply #112 on: June 11, 2018, 06:35:18 PM »
I eat Chick Fil-A 1-2 times a week, every week.  :coolio

But never on Sundays.
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Offline KevShmev

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Re: Can we just stop, please?
« Reply #113 on: June 11, 2018, 06:37:26 PM »
I eat Chick Fil-A 1-2 times a week, every week.  :coolio

But never on Sundays.

Damn it. :lol :lol

It can be a bit maddening when I get that craving on a Sunday.


Offline jingle.boy

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Re: Can we just stop, please?
« Reply #114 on: June 11, 2018, 06:44:27 PM »
I love the Wendy's troll/meme

I didn't know I could handle another 10 inches and it was rough but in the end I'm glad I did it.
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Offline cramx3

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Re: Can we just stop, please?
« Reply #115 on: June 12, 2018, 07:40:10 AM »
Wendy's twitter is bad ass

also, I've gotten so mad before on work trips for sunday dinner going up to a Chick fil A and then realizing  :facepalm:

Offline Harmony

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Re: Can we just stop, please?
« Reply #116 on: June 12, 2018, 10:12:16 AM »
Oh yeah, and...

Robert DeNiro

Lolz

Yeah....his behavior and antics over the past few years has pretty much ruined him in my eyes. Used to love the dudes acting but he's entered Alec Baldwin territory now. I can watch and enjoy liberal actors just fine. It's when they take that next leap like Balwin/deNiro/O'Donnell where it changes for me.

Yeah DeNiro really sunk to the bottom of the barrel.  Insulting a seated POTUS in such a public manner is classless, right?  Instead of using a cuss word, he should've simply accused Trump of having a fake birth certificate and intimated he was a super secret Muslim intent on bringing sharia to fruition in the US.  Then sent his detectives to his place of birth to obtain evidence of the forged document being sure to keep the controversy stirred up for months and months.

Sorry but I find it hard to muster up much sympathy here.  What goes around, comes around.  POTUS has set the tone.

Offline bosk1

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Re: Can we just stop, please?
« Reply #117 on: June 12, 2018, 10:15:54 AM »
Or how about:  "It's not cool, ever, no matter which 'side' is doing it."
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Offline Adami

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Re: Can we just stop, please?
« Reply #118 on: June 12, 2018, 10:18:09 AM »
Or how about:  "It's not cool, ever, no matter which 'side' is doing it."

Yup!
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Offline Implode

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Re: Can we just stop, please?
« Reply #119 on: June 12, 2018, 10:38:46 AM »
Chik-Fil-A is a grea example of a fad of a social justice "movement". I remember back in 2012-2013 when everyone (my age) was exclaiming, "Boycott them! Religious nuts! Homophobic!" But now all I see is, "I'm the gayest person I know, but hell if I don't love me some Chilk-Fil-A." I'm glad that some people have found better things to focus on.

Offline Stadler

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Re: Can we just stop, please?
« Reply #120 on: June 12, 2018, 11:17:50 AM »
I eat Chick Fil-A 1-2 times a week, every week.  :coolio

But never on Sundays.

Damn it. :lol :lol

It can be a bit maddening when I get that craving on a Sunday.

Nothing worse than flying through Atlanta airport on a Sunday, and looking forward to a hot Chick-fil-A sandwich, then realizing... no soup for you.   :)

I have one now here, in my town, and Mondays is my son's therapy so we're pressed for time after school and before therapy, so about  twice a month or so we each get number one meals and go to the doctor. 

Offline Stadler

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Re: Can we just stop, please?
« Reply #121 on: June 12, 2018, 11:26:58 AM »
Oh yeah, and...

Robert DeNiro

Lolz

Yeah....his behavior and antics over the past few years has pretty much ruined him in my eyes. Used to love the dudes acting but he's entered Alec Baldwin territory now. I can watch and enjoy liberal actors just fine. It's when they take that next leap like Balwin/deNiro/O'Donnell where it changes for me.

Yeah DeNiro really sunk to the bottom of the barrel.  Insulting a seated POTUS in such a public manner is classless, right?  Instead of using a cuss word, he should've simply accused Trump of having a fake birth certificate and intimated he was a super secret Muslim intent on bringing sharia to fruition in the US.  Then sent his detectives to his place of birth to obtain evidence of the forged document being sure to keep the controversy stirred up for months and months.

Sorry but I find it hard to muster up much sympathy here.  What goes around, comes around.  POTUS has set the tone.

I happen to agree with you up to the last sentence.  It didn't start with the current POTUS, it has been a trend that's been coming for over a decade.   I don't blame Clinton, per se, but if you're asking me, ever since Clinton appeared on Arsenio Hall with a saxophone and a pair of sunglasses, we've seen a progressive erosion of the way we address our leadership.  Couple that with this (dead wrong) idea that everyone's opinion matters, and that we all have a right to express whatever it is we're thinking - regardless of whether we're right or wrong, or whether we have facts in our back pocket or no - and we have the shitstorm that is Bobby D.

I don't have a problem with celebrities speaking their mind, but I do have a problem with the recent trend of "normalizing" the resistance.   I'm not a Trump fan, I didn't vote for him, and I wouldn't now vote for him.  I like some of his policies, but I don't like others (tariffs are the single stupidest thing we can do for the global economy, and while it might help in the short term it will be a long term disaster).   Having said that, I can easily count four times in the last two weeks where I made a comment that was politically neutral and yet was taken as if it was an invite to disparage our current President.

I'm on - or should I say "was on" - another forum, and was consistently and regularly called a "Trump apologist" for no other reason than I didn't reject everything that he said, did, or stood for patently out of hand, and had the NERVE to actually offer to see the other side of certain issues.  One forumer - who posts here too - actually called me a "troll" and told me to "fuck off" because I didn't "resist" hard enough.   

Offline Stadler

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Re: Can we just stop, please?
« Reply #122 on: June 12, 2018, 11:32:26 AM »
Chik-Fil-A is a grea example of a fad of a social justice "movement". I remember back in 2012-2013 when everyone (my age) was exclaiming, "Boycott them! Religious nuts! Homophobic!" But now all I see is, "I'm the gayest person I know, but hell if I don't love me some Chilk-Fil-A." I'm glad that some people have found better things to focus on.

I agree; I'd like to think it was just 'education' but my experience tells me otherwise.    I had the pleasure of meeting C. Truett Cathy and two of his kids back when I was getting my MBA, and in total, he's done some remarkable things.   Yeah, he beliefs marriage should be between a man and a woman, but he's also given millions and millions of dollars to help orphans and underprivileged children, even going so far as to adopt many of them to give them an opportunity to have a chance.   They do a lot in the community, and whether you agree with the religious aspect of it or not, to consider the well-being of their employees when setting business policy is, I think, to be commended.  If it was Starbucks, it would be applauded without reserve. 

Offline cramx3

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Re: Can we just stop, please?
« Reply #123 on: June 12, 2018, 11:52:34 AM »
Chik-Fil-A is a grea example of a fad of a social justice "movement". I remember back in 2012-2013 when everyone (my age) was exclaiming, "Boycott them! Religious nuts! Homophobic!" But now all I see is, "I'm the gayest person I know, but hell if I don't love me some Chilk-Fil-A." I'm glad that some people have found better things to focus on.

I agree; I'd like to think it was just 'education' but my experience tells me otherwise.    I had the pleasure of meeting C. Truett Cathy and two of his kids back when I was getting my MBA, and in total, he's done some remarkable things.   Yeah, he beliefs marriage should be between a man and a woman, but he's also given millions and millions of dollars to help orphans and underprivileged children, even going so far as to adopt many of them to give them an opportunity to have a chance.   They do a lot in the community, and whether you agree with the religious aspect of it or not, to consider the well-being of their employees when setting business policy is, I think, to be commended.  If it was Starbucks, it would be applauded without reserve.

This is why I think the chick-fil-a hate is unwarranted.  They have their personal beliefs and they don't hate on anyone because of it.  It's not like they refuse to server gay people.  They just have their own personal beliefs about a touchy subject.  Who cares that they are religious?  I don't get why that makes it a good place to boycott.  They've demonstrated in a few ways that the franchise is run by decent people and they run the franchise in a very nice way that we should commend IMO, not hate.

Offline axeman90210

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Re: Can we just stop, please?
« Reply #124 on: June 12, 2018, 02:12:23 PM »
My friends and I refer to Chik-Fil-A as "hate chicken" in a tongue in cheek manner, but we all also have no problem eating it :lol
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Offline KevShmev

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Re: Can we just stop, please?
« Reply #125 on: June 12, 2018, 07:09:26 PM »
Or how about:  "It's not cool, ever, no matter which 'side' is doing it."

Yup!

Sadly, I have seen many liberals say, "We are tired of going high when Trump always goes low, so to hell with it."  And it is true that it is hard for Trump voters to take the high ground when they voted for such an ass clown, but it's just such a shame to see both sides devolve into a name-calling pissing contest.

Chik-Fil-A is a grea example of a fad of a social justice "movement". I remember back in 2012-2013 when everyone (my age) was exclaiming, "Boycott them! Religious nuts! Homophobic!" But now all I see is, "I'm the gayest person I know, but hell if I don't love me some Chilk-Fil-A." I'm glad that some people have found better things to focus on.

All of that nonsense just made it more popular. Tons of people who had never eaten Chick Fil-A tried it and were like, holy crap, this is great stuff!  I generally do not fast food, except for CFA.  The grilled chicken sandwich with just a touch of the honey roasted BBQ sauce is so yummy.

Offline Stadler

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Re: Can we just stop, please?
« Reply #126 on: June 13, 2018, 08:49:00 AM »
Or how about:  "It's not cool, ever, no matter which 'side' is doing it."

Yup!

Sadly, I have seen many liberals say, "We are tired of going high when Trump always goes low, so to hell with it."  And it is true that it is hard for Trump voters to take the high ground when they voted for such an ass clown, but it's just such a shame to see both sides devolve into a name-calling pissing contest.

Which speaks volumes, because  not only are they simply self-rationalizing, but it highlights the general sort of "obliviousness" that some liberals have.    Hillary calling 30 million people "deplorable" because they don't agree with her is hardly "the high road".  Gaming the convention - perhaps illegally - to allow the elitist, Establishment candidate to win, despite a reasonable turnout for the anti-Establishment, populist challenger.   Making every issue a MORAL issue as opposed to just a rational difference of opinion (If you're against the ACA, you "want to see people DIE!")...     

Quote
Chik-Fil-A is a grea example of a fad of a social justice "movement". I remember back in 2012-2013 when everyone (my age) was exclaiming, "Boycott them! Religious nuts! Homophobic!" But now all I see is, "I'm the gayest person I know, but hell if I don't love me some Chilk-Fil-A." I'm glad that some people have found better things to focus on.

All of that nonsense just made it more popular. Tons of people who had never eaten Chick Fil-A tried it and were like, holy crap, this is great stuff!  I generally do not fast food, except for CFA.  The grilled chicken sandwich with just a touch of the honey roasted BBQ sauce is so yummy.

Sad they seemed to have gotten rid of the chicken salad sandwich; it was chicken salad, lettuce, and tomato on a multi-grain bread.

Offline Chino

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Re: Can we just stop, please?
« Reply #127 on: June 13, 2018, 08:49:53 AM »
Chik-Fil-A is a grea example of a fad of a social justice "movement". I remember back in 2012-2013 when everyone (my age) was exclaiming, "Boycott them! Religious nuts! Homophobic!" But now all I see is, "I'm the gayest person I know, but hell if I don't love me some Chilk-Fil-A." I'm glad that some people have found better things to focus on.

I agree; I'd like to think it was just 'education' but my experience tells me otherwise.    I had the pleasure of meeting C. Truett Cathy and two of his kids back when I was getting my MBA, and in total, he's done some remarkable things.   Yeah, he beliefs marriage should be between a man and a woman, but he's also given millions and millions of dollars to help orphans and underprivileged children, even going so far as to adopt many of them to give them an opportunity to have a chance.   They do a lot in the community, and whether you agree with the religious aspect of it or not, to consider the well-being of their employees when setting business policy is, I think, to be commended.  If it was Starbucks, it would be applauded without reserve.

This is why I think the chick-fil-a hate is unwarranted.  They have their personal beliefs and they don't hate on anyone because of it.  It's not like they refuse to server gay people.  They just have their own personal beliefs about a touchy subject.  Who cares that they are religious?  I don't get why that makes it a good place to boycott.  They've demonstrated in a few ways that the franchise is run by decent people and they run the franchise in a very nice way that we should commend IMO, not hate.

To be fair, it wasn't just because the guy is religious. He came out and said homosexuals and those who support them are arrogant.

“We are inviting God’s judgment on our nation when we shake our fist at Him and say, ‘We know better than you as to what constitutes a marriage,’ and I pray God’s mercy on our generation that has such a prideful, arrogant attitude to think that we have the audacity to define what marriage is about.”


Offline El Barto

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Re: Can we just stop, please?
« Reply #128 on: June 13, 2018, 08:52:10 AM »
Or how about:  "It's not cool, ever, no matter which 'side' is doing it."

Yup!

Sadly, I have seen many liberals say, "We are tired of going high when Trump always goes low, so to hell with it."  And it is true that it is hard for Trump voters to take the high ground when they voted for such an ass clown, but it's just such a shame to see both sides devolve into a name-calling pissing contest.

Which speaks volumes, because  not only are they simply self-rationalizing, but it highlights the general sort of "obliviousness" that some liberals have.    Hillary calling 30 million people "deplorable" because they don't agree with her is hardly "the high road".  Gaming the convention - perhaps illegally - to allow the elitist, Establishment candidate to win, despite a reasonable turnout for the anti-Establishment, populist challenger.   Making every issue a MORAL issue as opposed to just a rational difference of opinion (If you're against the ACA, you "want to see people DIE!")...     
Because they don't agree with her? You know better than that, dude. By misrepresenting her you're doing the same thing you decry.
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Offline cramx3

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Re: Can we just stop, please?
« Reply #129 on: June 13, 2018, 08:56:15 AM »
Chik-Fil-A is a grea example of a fad of a social justice "movement". I remember back in 2012-2013 when everyone (my age) was exclaiming, "Boycott them! Religious nuts! Homophobic!" But now all I see is, "I'm the gayest person I know, but hell if I don't love me some Chilk-Fil-A." I'm glad that some people have found better things to focus on.

I agree; I'd like to think it was just 'education' but my experience tells me otherwise.    I had the pleasure of meeting C. Truett Cathy and two of his kids back when I was getting my MBA, and in total, he's done some remarkable things.   Yeah, he beliefs marriage should be between a man and a woman, but he's also given millions and millions of dollars to help orphans and underprivileged children, even going so far as to adopt many of them to give them an opportunity to have a chance.   They do a lot in the community, and whether you agree with the religious aspect of it or not, to consider the well-being of their employees when setting business policy is, I think, to be commended.  If it was Starbucks, it would be applauded without reserve.

This is why I think the chick-fil-a hate is unwarranted.  They have their personal beliefs and they don't hate on anyone because of it.  It's not like they refuse to server gay people.  They just have their own personal beliefs about a touchy subject.  Who cares that they are religious?  I don't get why that makes it a good place to boycott.  They've demonstrated in a few ways that the franchise is run by decent people and they run the franchise in a very nice way that we should commend IMO, not hate.

To be fair, it wasn't just because the guy is religious. He came out and said homosexuals and those who support them are arrogant.

“We are inviting God’s judgment on our nation when we shake our fist at Him and say, ‘We know better than you as to what constitutes a marriage,’ and I pray God’s mercy on our generation that has such a prideful, arrogant attitude to think that we have the audacity to define what marriage is about.”



I dont really interpret that the same way.  And I kind of do believe you are arrogant to believe your way/belief of something is better or more right than another when it comes to something that is not an absolute truth (that goes for being anti-gay marriage or pro it, so I also find that response arrogant but I don't think it makes him a homophobe or reason to protest).

Offline Stadler

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Re: Can we just stop, please?
« Reply #130 on: June 13, 2018, 09:04:34 AM »
Or how about:  "It's not cool, ever, no matter which 'side' is doing it."

Yup!

Sadly, I have seen many liberals say, "We are tired of going high when Trump always goes low, so to hell with it."  And it is true that it is hard for Trump voters to take the high ground when they voted for such an ass clown, but it's just such a shame to see both sides devolve into a name-calling pissing contest.

Which speaks volumes, because  not only are they simply self-rationalizing, but it highlights the general sort of "obliviousness" that some liberals have.    Hillary calling 30 million people "deplorable" because they don't agree with her is hardly "the high road".  Gaming the convention - perhaps illegally - to allow the elitist, Establishment candidate to win, despite a reasonable turnout for the anti-Establishment, populist challenger.   Making every issue a MORAL issue as opposed to just a rational difference of opinion (If you're against the ACA, you "want to see people DIE!")...     
Because they don't agree with her? You know better than that, dude. By misrepresenting her you're doing the same thing you decry.

I'm aware of that, but I honestly DO believe that at heart, it's because they didn't agree with her.  I'm very much against making political arguments "moral" ones, because it presupposes a hierarchy of issues and it only serves to shame those that don't adhere to that hierarchy.   I present here as possibly more conservative than most, but the reality is, in American circa 2018, I could  very easily vote Democrat and be happy, with one exception.   Trump/Sanders/Clinton all called for tariffs, all called for immigration reform.  I could care less about a wall versus an administrative solution - except where one is proven to be significantly more effective than the other; I just want results - so there's no difference there.  I'm pro-choice, anti-death penalty, pro-single payer, and could care less who marries whom, so no difference there.   Where I disagree with the left, and in one of the very few areas I agree with our President, is that I don't consider identity politics positions as one-issue dealbreakers.   I do not at all agree with - in fact, I patently reject - the idea that if you're "silent", you're "complicit".    I don't think being a "racist" is a cause for rejecting someone outright from our society.  I don't at all think that racists forfeit their rights under the Constitution just because they hold a contrary position.   

Offline Stadler

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Re: Can we just stop, please?
« Reply #131 on: June 13, 2018, 09:08:22 AM »
Chik-Fil-A is a grea example of a fad of a social justice "movement". I remember back in 2012-2013 when everyone (my age) was exclaiming, "Boycott them! Religious nuts! Homophobic!" But now all I see is, "I'm the gayest person I know, but hell if I don't love me some Chilk-Fil-A." I'm glad that some people have found better things to focus on.

I agree; I'd like to think it was just 'education' but my experience tells me otherwise.    I had the pleasure of meeting C. Truett Cathy and two of his kids back when I was getting my MBA, and in total, he's done some remarkable things.   Yeah, he beliefs marriage should be between a man and a woman, but he's also given millions and millions of dollars to help orphans and underprivileged children, even going so far as to adopt many of them to give them an opportunity to have a chance.   They do a lot in the community, and whether you agree with the religious aspect of it or not, to consider the well-being of their employees when setting business policy is, I think, to be commended.  If it was Starbucks, it would be applauded without reserve.

This is why I think the chick-fil-a hate is unwarranted.  They have their personal beliefs and they don't hate on anyone because of it.  It's not like they refuse to server gay people.  They just have their own personal beliefs about a touchy subject.  Who cares that they are religious?  I don't get why that makes it a good place to boycott.  They've demonstrated in a few ways that the franchise is run by decent people and they run the franchise in a very nice way that we should commend IMO, not hate.

To be fair, it wasn't just because the guy is religious. He came out and said homosexuals and those who support them are arrogant.

“We are inviting God’s judgment on our nation when we shake our fist at Him and say, ‘We know better than you as to what constitutes a marriage,’ and I pray God’s mercy on our generation that has such a prideful, arrogant attitude to think that we have the audacity to define what marriage is about.”



I dont really interpret that the same way.  And I kind of do believe you are arrogant to believe your way/belief of something is better or more right than another when it comes to something that is not an absolute truth (that goes for being anti-gay marriage or pro it, so I also find that response arrogant but I don't think it makes him a homophobe or reason to protest).

I'm with Cram on that point; having attended a southern church for a while (it was mandatory to get my kid in a certain school; we finally left when a sermon called for all women to be subservient to the man of the house.  As much as I dug that personally - being the man of the house - I couldn't in good conscience teach that to my daughter) that's a common argument when anyone deems to want to change church doctrine.  It's part and parcel with the argument that the Bible is the literal word of God and is the ultimate law for Christians seeking faith.  I know what it sounds like, but it's more about a general belief that man is subservient to god's will and god's laws than it is a dig at "homosexuals" specifically.  Read the quote; it's ANYONE that feels like they can subvert the bible.

Offline El Barto

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Re: Can we just stop, please?
« Reply #132 on: June 13, 2018, 09:19:17 AM »
Or how about:  "It's not cool, ever, no matter which 'side' is doing it."

Yup!

Sadly, I have seen many liberals say, "We are tired of going high when Trump always goes low, so to hell with it."  And it is true that it is hard for Trump voters to take the high ground when they voted for such an ass clown, but it's just such a shame to see both sides devolve into a name-calling pissing contest.

Which speaks volumes, because  not only are they simply self-rationalizing, but it highlights the general sort of "obliviousness" that some liberals have.    Hillary calling 30 million people "deplorable" because they don't agree with her is hardly "the high road".  Gaming the convention - perhaps illegally - to allow the elitist, Establishment candidate to win, despite a reasonable turnout for the anti-Establishment, populist challenger.   Making every issue a MORAL issue as opposed to just a rational difference of opinion (If you're against the ACA, you "want to see people DIE!")...     
Because they don't agree with her? You know better than that, dude. By misrepresenting her you're doing the same thing you decry.

I'm aware of that, but I honestly DO believe that at heart, it's because they didn't agree with her.  I'm very much against making political arguments "moral" ones, because it presupposes a hierarchy of issues and it only serves to shame those that don't adhere to that hierarchy.   I present here as possibly more conservative than most, but the reality is, in American circa 2018, I could  very easily vote Democrat and be happy, with one exception.   Trump/Sanders/Clinton all called for tariffs, all called for immigration reform.  I could care less about a wall versus an administrative solution - except where one is proven to be significantly more effective than the other; I just want results - so there's no difference there.  I'm pro-choice, anti-death penalty, pro-single payer, and could care less who marries whom, so no difference there.   Where I disagree with the left, and in one of the very few areas I agree with our President, is that I don't consider identity politics positions as one-issue dealbreakers.   I do not at all agree with - in fact, I patently reject - the idea that if you're "silent", you're "complicit".    I don't think being a "racist" is a cause for rejecting someone outright from our society.  I don't at all think that racists forfeit their rights under the Constitution just because they hold a contrary position.
And you double down. By assuming her motivations, in contrast to what she actually said, you're participating in identity politics which you use to oppose her.
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Offline bosk1

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Re: Can we just stop, please?
« Reply #133 on: June 13, 2018, 09:25:43 AM »
???  I don't see any assuming of motivations rather than what she has actually said.  I think you are seeing something that isn't intended to be there.
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Offline jingle.boy

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Re: Can we just stop, please?
« Reply #134 on: June 13, 2018, 09:44:23 AM »
I'm with EB here.  She didn't say 30M people specifically... she said "half of Trump's supporters" - in what was (imo) clearly a hyperbolic statement... leading into classifications of racism, sexism, homophobia and other phobias that Trump "lifted them up ... given voice to their websites... tweets and retweets ... their rhetoric".

To boil that down to her calling 30M people deplorable because they disagree with her is - as EB said - assuming her motivations.

Here's food for thought, why not assume her motivation was to classify the *behaviours* as "deplorable", rather than what everyone assume was that she was classifying the *people* as deplorable?

Not really interested in re-litigating this, but just backing up EB on the matter.
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Offline El Barto

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Re: Can we just stop, please?
« Reply #135 on: June 13, 2018, 10:29:10 AM »
???  I don't see any assuming of motivations rather than what she has actually said.  I think you are seeing something that isn't intended to be there.
Uh uh. Within the context of what she said she was plainly stating that they were deplorable for being racist, homophobic, misogynistic fucksticks. The idea that she was just denouncing people that disagreed with her platform is an assumption based on his opinion of her personality. Stadler is very definitely misstating her position, in opposition to his contempt for identity politics.

Quote from: HRC
“You know, to just be grossly generalistic, you could put half of Trump’s supporters into what I call the basket of deplorables. Right?” Clinton said. “The racist, sexist, homophobic, xenophobic, Islamaphobic—you name it. And unfortunately there are people like that. And he has lifted them up.
Argument, the presentation of reasonable views, never makes headway against conviction, and conviction takes no part in argument because it knows.
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Offline Podaar

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Re: Can we just stop, please?
« Reply #136 on: June 13, 2018, 10:34:42 AM »
She also went on to say that the other half of Trumps supporters had a legitimate gripe about the state of D.C. and that their issues must be addressed if anyone was to win their support away from Trump. If she'd just stuck with the second half, she probably would have fared much better. I think.

Offline bosk1

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Re: Can we just stop, please?
« Reply #137 on: June 13, 2018, 10:41:24 AM »
???  I don't see any assuming of motivations rather than what she has actually said.  I think you are seeing something that isn't intended to be there.
Uh uh. Within the context of what she said she was plainly stating that they were deplorable for being racist, homophobic, misogynistic fucksticks. The idea that she was just denouncing people that disagreed with her platform is an assumption based on his opinion of her personality. Stadler is very definitely misstating her position, in opposition to his contempt for identity politics.

Quote from: HRC
“You know, to just be grossly generalistic, you could put half of Trump’s supporters into what I call the basket of deplorables. Right?” Clinton said. “The racist, sexist, homophobic, xenophobic, Islamaphobic—you name it. And unfortunately there are people like that. And he has lifted them up.

Yeah, I don't see anything qualitatively different in what she said and what Stadler was saying, at least for purposes of his argument. 
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Offline El Barto

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Re: Can we just stop, please?
« Reply #138 on: June 13, 2018, 10:49:46 AM »
???  I don't see any assuming of motivations rather than what she has actually said.  I think you are seeing something that isn't intended to be there.
Uh uh. Within the context of what she said she was plainly stating that they were deplorable for being racist, homophobic, misogynistic fucksticks. The idea that she was just denouncing people that disagreed with her platform is an assumption based on his opinion of her personality. Stadler is very definitely misstating her position, in opposition to his contempt for identity politics.

Quote from: HRC
“You know, to just be grossly generalistic, you could put half of Trump’s supporters into what I call the basket of deplorables. Right?” Clinton said. “The racist, sexist, homophobic, xenophobic, Islamaphobic—you name it. And unfortunately there are people like that. And he has lifted them up.

Yeah, I don't see anything qualitatively different in what she said and what Stadler was saying, at least for purposes of his argument.
Then I don't know what to tell you. She was pretty clear on what made them deplorable, and Stadler gives her a different reason, twice.
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Re: Can we just stop, please?
« Reply #139 on: June 13, 2018, 10:50:50 AM »


How 'bout this... "Can we just stop, please?" is the thread title after-all.
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