Author Topic: Can we just stop, please?  (Read 4514 times)

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Offline Stadler

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Can we just stop, please?
« on: February 12, 2018, 11:43:31 AM »
I didn't know where this should go; if it belongs in the P/R section, so be it.   

But mother of god, can it end, now? 

http://www.msn.com/en-us/movies/news/sony-apologizes-for-controversial-peter-rabbit-scene-which-made-light-of-food-allergies/ar-BBJ02xE?li=BBmkt5R&ocid=ientp

http://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/winter-olympics/nbc-fires-analyst-over-japan-comment-at-pyeongchang-games/ar-BBJ0WIj?li=BBmkt5R&ocid=ientp

There's not a document, a promise, a law, or a statute that promises that we should be free from anything that violates our own personal sense of place.  This isn't about "just being careful about what you say" or "being more sensitive", this is about the clear and present danger of censoring ideas and thoughts.   This isn't helping anyone. 

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Re: Can we just stop, please?
« Reply #1 on: February 12, 2018, 11:52:32 AM »
yeah. the silliness that is our PC culture right now would be hilarious if it weren't so sad.
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Offline BlackInk

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Re: Can we just stop, please?
« Reply #2 on: February 12, 2018, 11:56:06 AM »
It would be hilarious if it didn't run the serious risk of doing actual academic and intellectual damage to our culture.
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Online Chino

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Re: Can we just stop, please?
« Reply #3 on: February 12, 2018, 11:57:24 AM »
I didn't know where this should go; if it belongs in the P/R section, so be it.   

But mother of god, can it end, now? 

http://www.msn.com/en-us/movies/news/sony-apologizes-for-controversial-peter-rabbit-scene-which-made-light-of-food-allergies/ar-BBJ02xE?li=BBmkt5R&ocid=ientp

http://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/winter-olympics/nbc-fires-analyst-over-japan-comment-at-pyeongchang-games/ar-BBJ0WIj?li=BBmkt5R&ocid=ientp

There's not a document, a promise, a law, or a statute that promises that we should be free from anything that violates our own personal sense of place.  This isn't about "just being careful about what you say" or "being more sensitive", this is about the clear and present danger of censoring ideas and thoughts.   This isn't helping anyone.

I'm offended that you think I shouldn't have the right to be offended by this. Please apologize to me.

Online Orbert

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Re: Can we just stop, please?
« Reply #4 on: February 12, 2018, 11:58:49 AM »
The Peter Rabbit thing is stupid.  Yes, some people have food allergies, but I think the idea of a rabbit being allergic to something rabbits are known to eat is fair game.  Only people with food allergies could possibly find it offensive, and I'd still think most of them would find it funny.

The Japan comments are a different kind of stupid.  I thought Ramo was a shitty commentator, and if he's supposed to be some kind of expert on Asian culture and history, then he's an idiot as well.  His comment is akin to the textbooks claiming that black slaves from Africa "immigrated" here.  Using a very wide definition of the word, and a lot of mind-altering pharmaceuticals, it might technically be true, but it's a completely stupid thing to say anyway.

Offline Phoenix87x

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Re: Can we just stop, please?
« Reply #5 on: February 12, 2018, 12:06:40 PM »
I totally agree. Let the madness end. All this uber, hyper PC non sense makes me nauseous.

People have it far too good these days, that the've run out of things to bitch about. So now its trigger warnings, micro aggressions and safe spaces. Its extremely worrying and as others have said, damaging to our society both academically and intellectually. And it weakens us a species.

I was so happy to graduate last year because this is what my University was turning into: 



University isn't supposed to be safe space. Its a place to challenge yourself with difficult truths and come out stronger on the other side.

The world is not fair, and it can be very cruel. But all that means is that its time to find the strength to overcome it, not cry in your safe space. It is pressure that makes diamonds, and this fierce and brutal world doesn't give a damn about your feelings.
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Offline Stadler

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Re: Can we just stop, please?
« Reply #6 on: February 12, 2018, 12:09:14 PM »
I'm not sure that "slave" example fits.  It's a controversial statement, to be sure, but it's worded very well, and it didn't take sides, it merely pointed out to those that aren't a) Japanese, b) South Korean, or c) a global geopolitical history expert that there is a long and complex history between the two countries.  He didn't say "positive" example or "negative" example.  It's a comment that invites further discussion.   

And regardless, the point was, assume he  said something that was untoward; where is the discussion about the point, where is the dialogue about the issue?   No, he's removed from the air, and, it seems, the network.   That's not discussion; that's censorship.  Why are we sending the message that "discussion" is bad? 

As evidenced by my posts in the Political Humor thread, I get it that there is a time and a place and apparently NBC wants this to be all rainbows and flags and peace and love.  But there's a downside to the whitewashing of reality out of our daily discourse.

Offline pg1067

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Re: Can we just stop, please?
« Reply #7 on: February 12, 2018, 12:11:43 PM »
The Peter Rabbit thing is stupid.  Yes, some people have food allergies, but I think the idea of a rabbit being allergic to something rabbits are known to eat is fair game.  Only people with food allergies could possibly find it offensive, and I'd still think most of them would find it funny.

It's even dumber than this.  The issue is that the human antagonist in the movie is allergic to blackberries, so the intelligent rabbit protagonist attacks the human by throwing blackberries at him and aiming for his mouth, which results in him going into shock and needing to stab himself with an epi pen.  I don't know if this is funny -- I'm not exactly the target audience and don't have young kids, so I'll never see the movie -- but it strains credulity to think that folks are actually offended by this.  If I understand the basic plot, this is another one of those movies in which the "protagonist" is cute but a total asshole bent on making the "antagonist's" life miserable and the "antagonist" is only considered a jerk because the other characters don't see that the "protagonist" is an asshole.  In any event, that a character who wants to make another character miserable would seek to exploit a weakness is hardly making light of a "serious issue.

What's worse than a bunch of clowns getting offended by this is the fact that the studio felt the need to apologize.  Seriously?!  Rather than apologize, why not take the opportunity to tell folks to lighten up and find something real to get offended about.  Should Warner Bros. apologize for how Bugs Bunny and Wile E. Coyote made light of firearms and explosives safety?  Ugh....
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Offline Stadler

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Re: Can we just stop, please?
« Reply #8 on: February 12, 2018, 12:13:56 PM »
I totally agree. Let the madness end. All this uber, hyper PC non sense makes me nauseous.

People have it far too good these days, that the've run out of things to bitch about. So now its trigger warnings, micro aggressions and safe spaces. Its extremely worrying and as others have said, damaging to our society both academically and intellectually. And it weakens us a species.

I was so happy to graduate last year because this is what my University was turning into: 



University isn't supposed to be safe space. Its a place to challenge yourself with difficult truths and come out stronger on the other side.

The world is not fair, and it can be very cruel. But all that means is that its time to find the strength to overcome it, not cry in your safe space. It is pressure that makes diamonds, and this fierce and brutal world doesn't give a damn about your feelings.

That's funny you mention that; last year or so, around Halloween when Yale issued those "guidelines" (read:  PC Rules) for Halloween costumes, the administrator (a guy, I forget his name; his wife issued the guidelines) came out to ostensibly debate the crowd.   He began a cogent, reasonable statement - forget about whether I agreed with it or not, that's not the point - and one student interrupted him, and started crying and screaming that he was violating her safe space, and that she came to university to have a safe, comfortable environment, a home away from home.   I was like, wha???   You're there to be challenged.  To transition from youth to maturity.  To learn that the entire world no longer thinks you crap strawberry ice cream, like your parents do.   

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Re: Can we just stop, please?
« Reply #9 on: February 12, 2018, 12:21:39 PM »
I'm offended that you think I shouldn't have the right to be offended by this. Please apologize to me.

that's the underlying issue....no one has the right not to be offended. It's just not a thing. We do have rights...a lot of them but not being offended isn't one of them. Somewhere along the line people started believing that they did have the right not to be offended and that's why we are where we are right now in this embarrassing PC culture.
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Re: Can we just stop, please?
« Reply #10 on: February 12, 2018, 12:26:01 PM »
I can think of very little I dislike in this world more than PC culture. It's such a cancer to comedy. Do these people like... not have any friends? Friends who just casually rib them for no real reason? How do they manage to make it through the day without breaking down in tears?
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Online Orbert

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Re: Can we just stop, please?
« Reply #11 on: February 12, 2018, 12:26:09 PM »
I'm not sure that "slave" example fits.  It's a controversial statement, to be sure, but it's worded very well, and it didn't take sides, it merely pointed out to those that aren't a) Japanese, b) South Korean, or c) a global geopolitical history expert that there is a long and complex history between the two countries.  He didn't say "positive" example or "negative" example.  It's a comment that invites further discussion.   

And regardless, the point was, assume he  said something that was untoward; where is the discussion about the point, where is the dialogue about the issue?   No, he's removed from the air, and, it seems, the network.   That's not discussion; that's censorship.  Why are we sending the message that "discussion" is bad? 

As evidenced by my posts in the Political Humor thread, I get it that there is a time and a place and apparently NBC wants this to be all rainbows and flags and peace and love.  But there's a downside to the whitewashing of reality out of our daily discourse.

"every Korean will tell you that Japan is a cultural, technological and economic example that has been so important to their own transformation" makes it sound like the Koreans love the Japanese and view them as a glorious example of what to strive for.  The statement may be factually correct, but it absolutely is meant to present Japan in a positive light; it is not a neutral statement meant to invite discussion.  Japan occupied Korea for 35 years.  To say that the Japanese "influenced" them would also be a correct statement, but you don't phrase it that way.  That's why I pulled out the slavery analogy.  Yes, the African natives came to this country to work, but that is not the common definition of slavery.

You can use carefully chosen words to say something that's factually correct, but if the implication is basically the opposite of the truth, or intentionally misdirecting the narrative, then it's still bullshit.

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Re: Can we just stop, please?
« Reply #12 on: February 12, 2018, 12:51:57 PM »
Totally agreed, and I feel that this extreme level of offennsisensitivity is taking away from legitimate offenses. Now they are all being lumped into snowflake land where some probably are legit.
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Offline TioJorge

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Re: Can we just stop, please?
« Reply #13 on: February 12, 2018, 01:06:40 PM »
What it is, is hypocrisy at its finest and/or taking an easy shot at fish in a barrel. I'm leaning towards the latter because 9 times out of 10 when some two-faced seemingly do-gooder runs in with their painted signs, chanting some dipshit protest rhyme, it's because it's easy to do and it's going to garner attention (keyword here) and illicit some kind of reaction; not because they're on a personal mission to change the world for the better (which is an entire discussion unto itself, because most of the "protesting" these days is bullshit and changes nothing. Mind you I'm talking about the tiny, bored groups standing around doing nothing, not an actual protest of hundreds or thousands built around illiciting change and doing something about it).

Nowadays, it's "protests" online, which is even easier. Make a post, hide behind the virtual wall of (relative) anonymity (or do the opposite and make yourself known and still be safe) and watch society react. This isn't an issue. It's not even a blip on the radar. But it's easy for people to use as kindling to start a fire, however brief and weak, to feel like they're doing something by bitching and moaning like toddlers asking for candy that after so long of hearing the little shit scream, the weak give in. Just like Sony did.

I don't think it'll change or stop, so I'd try to ignore it. It's been getting worse and worse (not so coincidentally) the more "voice" the internet gives the everyday mouth breather and society's reliance on the internet (and subsequently how the news spreads on the medium) is magnifying that one hundred fold.

On the other topic, I'm erring on the side of while it was a completely and totally different issue and surrounding circumstance (doused with political bias), the comment wasn't malicious; it wasn't the smartest comment and it was the worst time and place, but it's not like he said something horrifically offensive like "The Japanese gave the Koreans blackberry allergies". That would deserve a death sentence.

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Re: Can we just stop, please?
« Reply #14 on: February 12, 2018, 01:21:41 PM »
It might also offend people with blackberry allergies.

Offline New World Rushman

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Re: Can we just stop, please?
« Reply #15 on: February 12, 2018, 01:34:26 PM »
Where were these PC police when Mrs. Doubtfire put Cayenne pepper in James Bond's Jambalaya?

Offline TioJorge

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Re: Can we just stop, please?
« Reply #16 on: February 12, 2018, 02:01:39 PM »
That just...wow. Yes.  :rollin

Proof! Hardcore proof in Mrs. Doubtfire. Boom. Debate team number 1.

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Offline Cool Chris

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Re: Can we just stop, please?
« Reply #17 on: February 12, 2018, 02:17:11 PM »
I am not concerned at all. Should anyone feel it necessary, they can always procure the services of an emotional support peacock, hamster, or other animal.
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Offline kingshmegland

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Re: Can we just stop, please?
« Reply #18 on: February 12, 2018, 03:02:22 PM »
I am not concerned at all. Should anyone feel it necessary, they can always procure the services of an emotional support peacock, hamster, or other animal.

Like Richard Gere?

Oops.  Incentive on my part.
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Offline Ben_Jamin

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Re: Can we just stop, please?
« Reply #19 on: February 12, 2018, 03:18:24 PM »
I am not concerned at all. Should anyone feel it necessary, they can always procure the services of an emotional support peacock, hamster, or other animal.

Only to have it flushed down the toilet in an airplane.
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Offline pg1067

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Re: Can we just stop, please?
« Reply #20 on: February 12, 2018, 03:26:05 PM »
Where were these PC police when Mrs. Doubtfire put Cayenne pepper in James Bond's Jambalaya?

Seriously.

When I was a kid my best friend (who was from a VERY Italian-American family) had a bunch of books of "Italian jokes" and "Polack jokes" and what-not.  I'm guessing if these sorts of books got passed around at school these days (as we did back then), it would be grounds for suspension, which is just ridiculous.
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Offline XJDenton

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Re: Can we just stop, please?
« Reply #21 on: February 12, 2018, 04:37:00 PM »
Political correctness, or as I prefer to call it, "make the bare minimum effort in not being a colossal arsehole to someone", is not a significant problem. You don't have the right to not be offended, but equally there is no law preventing people from expressing their displeasure, nor companies responding to said market forces. In my day that was just called "capitalism".

Offline Cool Chris

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Re: Can we just stop, please?
« Reply #22 on: February 12, 2018, 04:44:05 PM »
If that is your definition, you don't understand political correctness. There is a big difference between intentionally being an arse to someone, and saying something that someone else find's offensive.
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Offline XJDenton

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Re: Can we just stop, please?
« Reply #23 on: February 12, 2018, 04:46:31 PM »
And what is that difference?

Offline bosk1

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Re: Can we just stop, please?
« Reply #24 on: February 12, 2018, 04:52:43 PM »
First:
Political correctness, or as I prefer to call it, "make the bare minimum effort in not being a colossal arsehole to someone", is not a significant problem.
These are not the same thing.  You are correct that the latter, or "what [you] prefer to call it" is not a problem.  But that is not what the thread is about.

Second:
...but equally there is no law preventing people from expressing their displeasure, nor companies responding to said market forces. In my day that was just called "capitalism".
No, it isn't "capitalism."  It us bullying, oppressiveness, and wrongfully using capitalism (market forces), the courts, and other mechanisms to force the appearance of false consensus.

Third:  Why is a non-political, non-religious topic in P/R?  ???
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Offline Cool Chris

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Re: Can we just stop, please?
« Reply #25 on: February 12, 2018, 04:54:18 PM »
I say "All British people are jerks" which is me being an ass because it is a disparaging statement.

I write a scene in a film about people allergic to a berry to advance a plot point, and people who are allergic to that berry are offended, forcing me to apologize for offending someone when no offensive was intended.

Your second point is accurate, though many people would express dismay at how it is being played out in today's world.
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Offline XJDenton

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Re: Can we just stop, please?
« Reply #26 on: February 12, 2018, 05:03:13 PM »
I write a scene in a film about people allergic to a berry to advance a plot point, and people who are allergic to that berry are offended, forcing me to apologize for offending someone when no offensive was intended.

1. Who forced them?
2. Intentions matter very little when it comes to practical outcomes. Drunk drivers don't intend to hit their victims either.

Third:  Why is a non-political, non-religious topic in P/R?  ???

Because in my general experience all discussions on PC culture inevitably go down political routes. If you disagree, feel free to move it back.

Offline XJDenton

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Re: Can we just stop, please?
« Reply #27 on: February 12, 2018, 05:17:44 PM »
These are not the same thing.  You are correct that the latter, or "what [you] prefer to call it" is not a problem.  But that is not what the thread is about.

Political correctness is, by any common definition, modification of behavior or language in order to avoid either offending or disadvantaging persons. So if you don't agree with political correctness, you are, ergo, either indifferent to causing offence/disadvantage or are in favour of actively causing it. Which, to me, is arseholish behavior.

Quote
No, it isn't "capitalism."  It us bullying, oppressiveness, and wrongfully using capitalism (market forces), the courts, and other mechanisms to force the appearance of false consensus.

Who is being bullied and oppressed by people voicing their displeasure at an allergy being the butt of a joke? What court or other legal mechanisms enforced the decision of a private company to terminate an employee because he spouted some bullcrap during the olympics and got called out on it?

Offline Cool Chris

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Re: Can we just stop, please?
« Reply #28 on: February 12, 2018, 05:17:51 PM »
I write a scene in a film about people allergic to a berry to advance a plot point, and people who are allergic to that berry are offended, forcing me to apologize for offending someone when no offensive was intended.

1. Who forced them?
2. Intentions matter very little when it comes to practical outcomes. Drunk drivers don't intend to hit their victims either.

In this case, no one that I could see. I for one wish Sony would have told those offended to fuck off and go watch Fifty Shades Freed.

Ignoring the bad analogy, as one is a crime (unless you are implying offending someone should also be a crime - I doubt you are, though am sure there are those who think it should be) yes intentions don't matter when it comes to outcomes. But I can know for certain if I punch a socialist in the face it might break their nose. I cannot know for certain if I say something that they will be offended.

So if you don't agree with political correctness, you are, ergo, either indifferent to causing offence/disadvantage or are in favour of actively causing it. Which, to me, is arseholish behavior.

I am largely indifferent to some offences because I find them wholly ridiculous. And (ironically?) I am offended that is considered arseholish of me.

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Offline XJDenton

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Re: Can we just stop, please?
« Reply #29 on: February 12, 2018, 05:26:11 PM »
In this case, no one that I could see. I for one wish Sony would have told those offended to fuck off and go watch Fifty Shades Freed.

And they could have done. But instead they decided to apologise, because thats what will probably make them more profit in the long term by not alienating people. Hence, capitalism.

Quote
Ignoring the bad analogy, as one is a crime (unless you are implying offending someone should also be a crime - I doubt you are, though am sure there are those who think it should be) yes intentions don't matter when it comes to outcomes.

1. Wasn't an analogy. It was a purposefully extreme example to show the flaws in that logic.
2. I am not advocating it being a crime. Social pressure should be enough.

Quote
But I can know for certain if I punch a socialist in the face it might break their nose. I cannot know for certain if I say something that they will be offended.

Not the first time perhaps. The issue is if you decide to keep doing it regardless.

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And (ironically?) I am offended that is considered arseholish of me.

Okay. So how do we resolve this?

Offline kingshmegland

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Re: Can we just stop, please?
« Reply #30 on: February 12, 2018, 05:31:22 PM »
I think we as a group need to be diligent over the real issues that are PC.  Everybody is getting too sensitive and it lessens the real issues we have as humans that need to be corrected.
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Re: Can we just stop, please?
« Reply #31 on: February 12, 2018, 05:33:24 PM »
It's a shame that the people who drive this end up having the loudest voices.   It seems companies cave in so easily because a few people are offended over something the general population is not, and IMO many times should not be offended.  The skin in the country has become increasingly thin.  It's a real shame when it ends up impacting meaningful discussion.  Also, the whole safe space on college campus thing is a joke IMO.  I always felt college is where you grow up and a safe space doesn't really allow growth.  We have so many freedoms and options in this country.  If you don't like something, you can change the channel, go to a different school, vote for a different president, whatever.  We have freedom to chose, and it's amazing, yet some like to limit those choices on others when they don't agree with something.

Offline Cool Chris

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Re: Can we just stop, please?
« Reply #32 on: February 12, 2018, 05:34:46 PM »
Okay. So how do we resolve this?

Well if I was most people, I would get on FaceTwittGram, express outrage at how a Mod at dtf.org offended me, and demand an apology in addition to your removal. But as I have a level head, I will acknowledge we have differing opinions, that you are still a good Mod here and a solid guy, and if we met in person we'd probably have a reasonable discussion over some bourbon.
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Offline XJDenton

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Re: Can we just stop, please?
« Reply #33 on: February 12, 2018, 05:38:25 PM »
Bourbon rather than single malt scotch?

Now that IS offensive. :P

So let me ask you a question: would you have preferred I expressed that view differently, and would you have been more accepting had I done so?

Offline kingshmegland

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Re: Can we just stop, please?
« Reply #34 on: February 12, 2018, 05:51:52 PM »
Bourbon rather than single malt scotch?

Now that IS offensive. :P

So let me ask you a question: would you have preferred I expressed that view differently, and would you have been more accepting had I done so?

 :lol. I'm a bourbon guy as well.
I don't like country music, but I don't mean to denigrate those who do. And for the people who like country music, denigrate means 'put down'. - Bob Newhart

So wait, we're spelling it wrong and king is spelling it right? What is going on here? :lol -- BlobVanDam