Author Topic: Falling Into Infinity was actually the last truly great DT album  (Read 7124 times)

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Offline Nekov

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Re: Falling Into Infinity was actually the last truly great DT album
« Reply #140 on: April 24, 2018, 10:27:28 AM »
Since we're talking about this, why do you guys think the band never bothered to properly record and release those B sides since a good portion of the fan base seems to like them? I think the greatest hit album would have been a great opportunity to do it.
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Offline Cool Chris

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Re: Falling Into Infinity was actually the last truly great DT album
« Reply #141 on: April 24, 2018, 10:43:40 AM »
I think the fact the band had to write so many songs for it to finally get the green light to record, really brought out something great in the band.

Never thought of it that way (and I highly disagree with the outcome). Interesting.

Since we're talking about this, why do you guys think the band never bothered to properly record and release those B sides since a good portion of the fan base seems to like them?

Because they aren't very good songs.
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Re: Falling Into Infinity was actually the last truly great DT album
« Reply #142 on: April 24, 2018, 10:44:00 AM »
Since we're talking about this, why do you guys think the band never bothered to properly record and release those B sides since a good portion of the fan base seems to like them? I think the greatest hit album would have been a great opportunity to do it.

My guess is frustration with the process. By the time they finally got the green light, and knew what songs were going to be fully recorded, they probably just wanted to crank it out and move on, relieved to get done and onward. If that was the case, I can't really blame them, despite myself loving the leftover songs, in some cases more than some of the album tracks.
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Offline bosk1

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Re: Falling Into Infinity was actually the last truly great DT album
« Reply #143 on: April 24, 2018, 10:50:22 AM »
Honestly, I just don't think they deemed it "necessary."  There was no reason to during the FII cycle, not to mention the fact that the studio didn't green light additional time to properly record those extra songs.  But the band did ultimately get them to the fans in several formats, with the Cleaning Out the Closet fan club disk, some of the songs being played live in several versions, and then much later by releasing the FII demos on Ytsejam.  I just don't think they have ever felt like there was a need to go back into the studio after the fact to re-record updated versions of those songs.  And I mostly agree with that.  We have them already.  Getting slightly more polished versions wouldn't be worth the time and effort on the band's part.
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Offline Cool Chris

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Re: Falling Into Infinity was actually the last truly great DT album
« Reply #144 on: April 24, 2018, 10:52:24 AM »
Good point, they had been in the studio and off the road for a while by that point, yes? Certainly they would want to get that album out and tour.
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Offline Nekov

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Re: Falling Into Infinity was actually the last truly great DT album
« Reply #145 on: April 24, 2018, 10:52:59 AM »
Since we're talking about this, why do you guys think the band never bothered to properly record and release those B sides since a good portion of the fan base seems to like them? I think the greatest hit album would have been a great opportunity to do it.

My guess is frustration with the process. By the time they finally got the green light, and knew what songs were going to be fully recorded, they probably just wanted to crank it out and move on, relieved to get done and onward. If that was the case, I can't really blame them, despite myself loving the leftover songs, in some cases more than some of the album tracks.

I can get the frustration at the time, but I'm talking years later. The material is there, just not in a good quality.

Since we're talking about this, why do you guys think the band never bothered to properly record and release those B sides since a good portion of the fan base seems to like them?

Because they aren't very good songs.


Now you're just being silly  :smiley:
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Offline Nekov

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Re: Falling Into Infinity was actually the last truly great DT album
« Reply #146 on: April 24, 2018, 10:55:14 AM »
Honestly, I just don't think they deemed it "necessary."  There was no reason to during the FII cycle, not to mention the fact that the studio didn't green light additional time to properly record those extra songs.  But the band did ultimately get them to the fans in several formats, with the Cleaning Out the Closet fan club disk, some of the songs being played live in several versions, and then much later by releasing the FII demos on Ytsejam.  I just don't think they have ever felt like there was a need to go back into the studio after the fact to re-record updated versions of those songs.  And I mostly agree with that.  We have them already.  Getting slightly more polished versions wouldn't be worth the time and effort on the band's part.

Ok, I can accept they might not think it worth their time. I think it would be nice to have a good clean version of those since the demo and live versions sound worse than WDADU  :P
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Offline bosk1

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Re: Falling Into Infinity was actually the last truly great DT album
« Reply #147 on: April 24, 2018, 10:59:13 AM »
Honestly, I just don't think they deemed it "necessary."  There was no reason to during the FII cycle, not to mention the fact that the studio didn't green light additional time to properly record those extra songs.  But the band did ultimately get them to the fans in several formats, with the Cleaning Out the Closet fan club disk, some of the songs being played live in several versions, and then much later by releasing the FII demos on Ytsejam.  I just don't think they have ever felt like there was a need to go back into the studio after the fact to re-record updated versions of those songs.  And I mostly agree with that.  We have them already.  Getting slightly more polished versions wouldn't be worth the time and effort on the band's part.

Ok, I can accept they might not think it worth their time. I think it would be nice to have a good clean version of those since the demo and live versions sound worse than WDADU  :P

All I can say is:

Now you're just being silly  :smiley:

I mean, Mission from 'Arry is a really cool extra that Maiden released for the fans.  After it gained some popularity and traction, was there ever any REAL demand for a better quality re-recording of it?  Not too much different, right?
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Offline Nekov

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Re: Falling Into Infinity was actually the last truly great DT album
« Reply #148 on: April 24, 2018, 11:09:33 AM »
Not being a big Maiden fan I don't really know what you're talking about.

If the guys don't think it's worth the effort it's OK, it's just something that came to my mind and thought it would have been nice of them to include 1 or 2 of those songs when they released their greatest hit album since that seemed like the ideal time to do it.
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Offline bosk1

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Re: Falling Into Infinity was actually the last truly great DT album
« Reply #149 on: April 24, 2018, 11:16:31 AM »
"The Supreme Court of the United States has descended from the disciplined legal reasoning of John Marshall and Joseph Story to the mystical aphorisms of the fortune cookie."

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Re: Falling Into Infinity was actually the last truly great DT album
« Reply #150 on: April 24, 2018, 11:19:53 AM »
Correct me if I am wrong on this, but in the originally envisioned 2 CD Falling into Infinity, all those songs we consider b-sides and extras now (Cover My Eyes, Speak to Me, etc.) would have been on the final product, along with Metropolis Pt. 2, right? At least theoretically?

I don't think the band necessarily considered them b-sides. I think they truly wanted to record them. But as bosk said, once they got green-lit, and they knew it would be a single disc, they just recorded what was going to be on the record and moved forward.
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Re: Falling Into Infinity was actually the last truly great DT album
« Reply #151 on: April 24, 2018, 11:25:17 AM »
Correct me if I am wrong on this, but in the originally envisioned 2 CD Falling into Infinity, all those songs we consider b-sides and extras now (Cover My Eyes, Speak to Me, etc.) would have been on the final product, along with Metropolis Pt. 2, right? At least theoretically?

I don't think the band necessarily considered them b-sides. I think they truly wanted to record them. But as bosk said, once they got green-lit, and they knew it would be a single disc, they just recorded what was going to be on the record and moved forward.

Yes, but the songs that ended up being recorded were re arranged and changed by Kevin Shirley (some more than others), so the other songs would've been different from what we know if they ended up recording them anyway.
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Offline MirrorMask

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Re: Falling Into Infinity was actually the last truly great DT album
« Reply #152 on: April 24, 2018, 11:52:40 AM »
We've got Raise the Knife from Score and Speak to Me and Cover My Eyes from the Livetime video. Everything else is fine enough as it is on the Ytejam release  :hat
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Offline pg1067

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Re: Falling Into Infinity was actually the last truly great DT album
« Reply #153 on: April 24, 2018, 11:56:01 AM »
Since we're talking about this, why do you guys think the band never bothered to properly record and release those B sides since a good portion of the fan base seems to like them? I think the greatest hit album would have been a great opportunity to do it.

I'm sure it's one or more of the following:

1. I'm not sure what evidence there is that "a good portion of the fan base seems to like them."  A few dozen folks on a message board does not equate to "a good portion of the fan base."

2. Those fans who have expressed interest in the songs are, in general, completists and are expressing interest in the songs for that reason and not because they think the songs are particularly good.

3. The songs in general weren't good enough to make the album or warrant consideration as b-sides.  That alone is reason enough to ignore them.

4. As time has gone by, any interest among the band members in revisiting rejected songs likely diminishes -- especially since 40% of the current band wasn't around when those songs were written and/or demoed.

5. Most of the songs exist in some form of official or semi-official release other than the fan club CD (which, while not having been widely distributed, is now readily available to anyone who wants to listen).  TLF is on the Ytse Jam demo CD and the greatest hits package (how much more "proper" can you get?).  Eve was the b-side to the Silent Man single (and, since it was entirely a Kevin Moore thing, it obviously wasn't and isn't going to get any attention after he left the band).  RtK was done live on Score.  CME was on Once in a Livetime.  StM is on the Japanese version of FII.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2018, 12:17:57 PM by pg1067 »
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Offline pg1067

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Re: Falling Into Infinity was actually the last truly great DT album
« Reply #154 on: April 24, 2018, 12:00:39 PM »
If the guys don't think it's worth the effort it's OK, it's just something that came to my mind and thought it would have been nice of them to include 1 or 2 of those songs when they released their greatest hit album since that seemed like the ideal time to do it.

Perhaps you should give the track list of Greatest Hit another look.


Since we're talking about this, why do you guys think the band never bothered to properly record and release those B sides since a good portion of the fan base seems to like them?

Because they aren't very good songs.


Now you're just being silly  :smiley:

Why is that "silly"?
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Offline Nekov

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Re: Falling Into Infinity was actually the last truly great DT album
« Reply #155 on: April 24, 2018, 12:06:36 PM »
Since we're talking about this, why do you guys think the band never bothered to properly record and release those B sides since a good portion of the fan base seems to like them?

Because they aren't very good songs.


Now you're just being silly  :smiley:
Quote
Why is that "silly"?

Innocent remark on how people have different opinions and tastes

Not being a big Maiden fan...

Now you're just being silly  :smiley:


Hey, I didn't say I'm not a Maiden fan, I just not a BIG fan  ;)
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Re: Falling Into Infinity was actually the last truly great DT album
« Reply #156 on: April 25, 2018, 12:19:49 PM »
As an aside, does anyone know if the track sequence on the FII Demos set released on Ytsejam was indeed the "official" order the band (or at least MP) envisioned for the record, if they had been able to do a double-album?

I always assumed it was, given that MP did the FII demos set, but I never saw anything definitive.
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Offline MirrorMask

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Re: Falling Into Infinity was actually the last truly great DT album
« Reply #157 on: April 25, 2018, 12:26:21 PM »
I don't think they ever came to a point where they said "Cool, we're making a double album, it will come out like this", they probably were artistically blocked way before.

Also, wasn't the tracklist just the order in which the songs were written?
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Re: Falling Into Infinity was actually the last truly great DT album
« Reply #158 on: April 25, 2018, 12:57:19 PM »
I don't think they ever came to a point where they said "Cool, we're making a double album, it will come out like this", they probably were artistically blocked way before.

Also, wasn't the tracklist just the order in which the songs were written?

I don't know. That's why I am asking someone who actually knows, or remembers hearing something about it, to comment. :)
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Re: Falling Into Infinity was actually the last truly great DT album
« Reply #159 on: April 25, 2018, 02:07:32 PM »
Also, wasn't the tracklist just the order in which the songs were written?
That's what I remember reading.

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Re: Falling Into Infinity was actually the last truly great DT album
« Reply #160 on: April 25, 2018, 03:00:41 PM »

Also, wasn't the tracklist just the order in which the songs were written?

I don't think so. I know MP thought Raise The Knife would be a good opener. Where Are You Now? He said was the first song written, being they didn't know where they wanted to go with the album. I'll look it up
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Offline IDontNotDoThings

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Re: Falling Into Infinity was actually the last truly great DT album
« Reply #161 on: April 25, 2018, 04:45:10 PM »

Also, wasn't the tracklist just the order in which the songs were written?

I don't think so. I know MP thought Raise The Knife would be a good opener. Where Are You Now? He said was the first song written, being they didn't know where they wanted to go with the album. I'll look it up

According to MP, Raise The Knife was originally written for ACOS, so yes, it was the first song written out of the bunch, even though WAYN is the first song written specifically for the album.

Offline Architeuthis

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Re: Falling Into Infinity was actually the last truly great DT album
« Reply #162 on: April 25, 2018, 07:56:31 PM »
Nope, The Astonishing was the last truly great Dream Theater album!   :tup
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Offline Zook

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Re: Falling Into Infinity was actually the last truly great DT album
« Reply #163 on: April 25, 2018, 08:42:25 PM »
Octavarium was the last truly great DT album, as in it's the last album where there were no skippable tracks. That includes Never Enough which I used to hate, but isn't an atrocity like Prophets of War.

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Re: Falling Into Infinity was actually the last truly great DT album
« Reply #164 on: April 26, 2018, 01:15:01 PM »
I wanna say SFAM was their last great one, 6DOIT was good but then it was all downhill. ADTOE was alright.

Offline Dublagent66

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Re: Falling Into Infinity was actually the last truly great DT album
« Reply #165 on: May 11, 2018, 12:49:57 PM »
I think SDOIT was that last truly great DT album.  Hope no one feels belittled if they disagree.  Well, actually I really don't care. :rollin
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Offline bosk1

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Re: Falling Into Infinity was actually the last truly great DT album
« Reply #166 on: May 11, 2018, 12:54:35 PM »
:lol  Well, I think that, whether one agrees or disagrees, that is SIGNIFICANTLY less controversial than the thread title, which ignores the fact that I think MOST of the fan base would consider SFAM and/or SDOIT "truly great."  I happen to disagree with you, but I can respect your opinion.  My respect for the original poster as a person aside, I can't really respect the opinion expressed in the original post.
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Offline Dublagent66

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Re: Falling Into Infinity was actually the last truly great DT album
« Reply #167 on: May 11, 2018, 02:00:58 PM »
I agree with SFAM being truly great as well as most of the others that came before SDOIT.  Just not after.  Some of them definitely good, but not great.  Oh well, I think SDOIT is their greatest overall achievement and set the bar really high.  It was a tough act to follow.
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Offline pg1067

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Re: Falling Into Infinity was actually the last truly great DT album
« Reply #168 on: May 11, 2018, 03:22:53 PM »
My respect for the original poster as a person aside, I can't really respect the opinion expressed in the original post.

I can't respect that opinion either, because:  (1) the OP never even tried to articulate what it means for an album to be "truly great;" (2) the OP never articulated why no subsequent album was "truly great;" and (3) some of the reasons offered in the original post for the "true greatness" of FII were objectively silly (e.g., the Chapman Stick was used on a couple albums, and DS played on the album).  Ultimately, all the OP was saying was that he subjectively prefers FII to anything that came after it.
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Offline Anxiety35

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Re: Falling Into Infinity was actually the last truly great DT album
« Reply #169 on: May 12, 2018, 07:39:27 PM »
My respect for the original poster as a person aside, I can't really respect the opinion expressed in the original post.

I can't respect that opinion either, because:  (1) the OP never even tried to articulate what it means for an album to be "truly great;" (2) the OP never articulated why no subsequent album was "truly great;" and (3) some of the reasons offered in the original post for the "true greatness" of FII were objectively silly (e.g., the Chapman Stick was used on a couple albums, and DS played on the album).  Ultimately, all the OP was saying was that he subjectively prefers FII to anything that came after it.

So you can't respect an opinion because it doesn't meet your criteria? It's an opinion. While I disagree with the OP's opinion, the OP doesn't have to articulate on their opinions if they don't want to. According to number 3 in your post, you say the OP's reasons were objectively silly. Maybe to you, but not to the OP.

We're on the 5th page of a thread analyzing and ridiculing someone's opinion but at the same time attempting to justify our own.

Let someone have an opinion. They have a right to be wrong.  ;)

Offline Architeuthis

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Re: Falling Into Infinity was actually the last truly great DT album
« Reply #170 on: May 13, 2018, 01:09:26 PM »
At least for the OP,  Dream Theater had an album that connected with him.  DT has so much variety in their music, it can be hit and miss with many people.
I have an older brother that doesn't like most of their stuff, but he sais illumination Theory is one of his favorite songs of all time from any band. For some reason that particular song made a connection with him.
 Why he doesn't "get" alot of DT's other music, still leaves me scratching my head. lol.   ???
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Re: Falling Into Infinity was actually the last truly great DT album
« Reply #171 on: May 14, 2018, 11:21:07 AM »
Why somebody would consider IT one of their favorites from any band is a head scratcher in itself.
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Offline Architeuthis

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Re: Falling Into Infinity was actually the last truly great DT album
« Reply #172 on: May 14, 2018, 11:34:23 AM »
Ha!   IT is a fantastic song, but I see what your saying.  My brother seems to have a.d.d. and I'm actually shocked he ever even made it through illumination Theory.  I guess he listened to it through headphones while skiing. I doubt he'll ever have another euphoric moment like that, and won't take the time to check out DT's catalog..lol!
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Offline pg1067

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Re: Falling Into Infinity was actually the last truly great DT album
« Reply #173 on: May 15, 2018, 12:34:10 PM »
My respect for the original poster as a person aside, I can't really respect the opinion expressed in the original post.

I can't respect that opinion either, because:  (1) the OP never even tried to articulate what it means for an album to be "truly great;" (2) the OP never articulated why no subsequent album was "truly great;" and (3) some of the reasons offered in the original post for the "true greatness" of FII were objectively silly (e.g., the Chapman Stick was used on a couple albums, and DS played on the album).  Ultimately, all the OP was saying was that he subjectively prefers FII to anything that came after it.

So you can't respect an opinion because it doesn't meet your criteria? It's an opinion. While I disagree with the OP's opinion, the OP doesn't have to articulate on their opinions if they don't want to. According to number 3 in your post, you say the OP's reasons were objectively silly. Maybe to you, but not to the OP.

We're on the 5th page of a thread analyzing and ridiculing someone's opinion but at the same time attempting to justify our own.

Let someone have an opinion. They have a right to be wrong.  ;)

Yes, I can't respect an opinion that lacks meaning and is offered without any clear factual basis.  I agree with you that "the OP doesn't have to articulate on their [sic] opinions."  However, that doesn't preclude me or anyone else from taking issue with the opinion.  Opinions cannot be "right" or "wrong," but they can be baseless.
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Offline Nekov

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Re: Falling Into Infinity was actually the last truly great DT album
« Reply #174 on: May 15, 2018, 01:17:02 PM »
Why somebody would consider IT one of their favorites from any band is a head scratcher in itself.

Well, it is a great song. What's strange is that out of all DT's catalogue that's the one he likes the most considering it's a 20+ minute epic with a break and a soft instrumental that would throw off most people, even if they got that far.
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