Author Topic: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Rise of Skywalker (oh, and The Mandalorian)  (Read 78188 times)

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Offline Zantera

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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Rise of Skywalker (oh, and The Mandalorian)
« Reply #1960 on: January 07, 2020, 10:19:32 AM »
I don't think George would like the new trilogy that much. Say what you want about the prequels quality wise but he was trying to do a lot of new things while also having some neat connections to the original trilogy with the way certain things played out or mirroring each other. The fact it didn't work the best comes down to the writing, the directing and the acting (among other things) but you can still tell there's an attempt to add something new to the overall universe. The sequel trilogy does feel closer to 'reboot' and revisiting things we know and like so I feel like George would probably consider them too safe or predictable.

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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Rise of Skywalker (oh, and The Mandalorian)
« Reply #1961 on: January 07, 2020, 10:24:57 AM »
I think it is fair to say that most people who grew up with the original trilogy probably didn't like the fact that Luke Skywalker was reduced to a hermit. He was our knight, our champion for goodness. I totally get it, and would agree that I didn't necessarily LIKE how he was portrayed in TLJ. That said, he redeemed himself in the end. What's tough is that there is a whole backstory of post-RotJ of Luke being what I think we all imagined him being - a Jedi Master, but we'll never see that on the screen. It's like we saw Luke grow up, missed his whole adulthood, and here we are, 35 years later, with him as an old man. It sort of wasn't FAIR to fans to go from ROTJ to 35 years later, with who is the central Skywalker character of the original trilogy. So I get all the frustration. But after living with the film for a while, I have a new appreciation for what Rian Johnson was trying to achieve. I still don't love the depiction, but I understand it. Just a shame they didn't do the sequels instead of the prequels. We may have gotten a lot of the Luke-centered Jedi Master stuff I think most of us in our late-30s-50s were wanting for the character.

As for Rise of Skywalker, I really enjoyed it, and saw it twice. All this stuff about director cuts...again, I get it, but the film is the film. Remember how all of us bitched and moaned (and still do) about when George went back and altered the original trilogy so many times? This is no different. The released film is the film. Cuts were made...by the director. Now in retrospect, all the fans want to see the original cut, before the film was ACTUALLY finished. I heard that Rose had more screen time - well, it was cut, and probably for the best. The character was unpopular. A scene was done, it was cut. Sure, throw it in as a deleted scene. Throw in some of the other stuff cut as deleted scenes. But I firmly believe the cuts (which were made by Abrams) were probably for the best, as they often are.

In the music business, artists trim the fat out of songs (unless you're Dream Theater circa mid-to-late 2000s) to make them better. They record 15 songs for a 12 song record and cut the weaker tracks...even if they like them. It's about making a better, more well rounded project that is accessible to the broadest audience. Films are really no different. Just a different medium.

Anyway, just my unsolicited .02. I'm thankful the Skywalker Saga is now done. The sequels were better than the prequels, but didn't live up to the original trilogy. To be honest, I really preferred Rogue One and The Mandalorian, which are fresh stories. And unlike most, I also did like Solo. I feel like that film is good and gets a bad rap because Han and Lando are recast. Those actors did a damn good job.
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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Rise of Skywalker (oh, and The Mandalorian)
« Reply #1962 on: January 07, 2020, 12:43:51 PM »
I think it is fair to say that most people who grew up with the original trilogy probably didn't like the fact that Luke Skywalker was reduced to a hermit. He was our knight, our champion for goodness. I totally get it, and would agree that I didn't necessarily LIKE how he was portrayed in TLJ. That said, he redeemed himself in the end. What's tough is that there is a whole backstory of post-RotJ of Luke being what I think we all imagined him being - a Jedi Master, but we'll never see that on the screen. It's like we saw Luke grow up, missed his whole adulthood, and here we are, 35 years later, with him as an old man. It sort of wasn't FAIR to fans to go from ROTJ to 35 years later, with who is the central Skywalker character of the original trilogy. So I get all the frustration. But after living with the film for a while, I have a new appreciation for what Rian Johnson was trying to achieve. I still don't love the depiction, but I understand it. Just a shame they didn't do the sequels instead of the prequels. We may have gotten a lot of the Luke-centered Jedi Master stuff I think most of us in our late-30s-50s were wanting for the character.

This is an interesting take and not at all inaccurate, but the attitude mentioned is one that I ultimately have a problem with (or, stated differently, I just don't get it).

I grew up with the original trilogy.  I saw Star Wars (before it was ANH) in a drive-in theater when I was almost 10, and I saw both Empire and ROTJ in the theater shortly after they were released.  I own or owned multiple VHS and DVD copies of the original trilogy, and I still have an unaltered set of VHS tapes.  I was excited when they put the original trilogy back in the theaters in the late 90s and then when Phantom Menace was released.  Clones and Sith were released when my kids were really young, and I don't remember seeing them in theaters.  My opinion of the prequels is pretty consistent with popular opinion.  I like TFA and LOVED TLJ.  I think it's behind only Empire and ANH (and some days might rank it ahead of ANH).

I neither "like" nor "dislike" how Luke was treated.  IMO, it's not my place to have an opinion about how someone else chooses to write his or her story, and Luke was not a golden calf whose post-ROTJ life had to be something epic.  But, as noted above, I LOVED TLJ.

One other thing.  My sense of post-ROTJ Luke is based on novels like Timothy Zahn's Thrawn trilogy and Kevin Anderson's Jedi Academy trilogy.  Disney's disavowance of those books was, IMO, stupid, but it left the slate completely blank for the post-ROTJ events, and Luke's life could have gone any number of ways, including what was portrayed in TLJ.
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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Rise of Skywalker (oh, and The Mandalorian)
« Reply #1963 on: January 07, 2020, 03:52:37 PM »
Actually, I was going to quote Samsara, the same paragraph as above, and go the other way with it.  Samsara has nailed what I think is the problem a lot of people had with Luke's story arc, even if they couldn't really put their finger on it before.  I couldn't, but now that it's been elucidated, I'm right there.  Luke was the hero of the OT.  Those of us who only know Star Wars from the movies never saw anything from/about Luke until TFA, by which time he's become a legend, which makes sense and is pretty cool, but we only get one brief, wordless scene with him.  Then he's a bitter old man for most of the next movie, then he's gone.  We never got to see any of the cool shit he did between RotJ and TFA.

Going out the way he did in TLJ was pretty badass, I'll say that.  But I can understand a lot of people feeling like Luke got the shaft in terms of story.

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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Rise of Skywalker (oh, and The Mandalorian)
« Reply #1964 on: January 07, 2020, 04:55:41 PM »
Imo Hammil was the best part of TLJ, not just as a character but his acting when I felt the whole cast lacks great acting skills. He was a bright light in that area. I had no issues with him being in exclusion like that. Remember obi wan also excluded himself.

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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Rise of Skywalker (oh, and The Mandalorian)
« Reply #1965 on: January 08, 2020, 02:15:55 AM »
Rise of Skywalker is very much a Star Wars greatest hits package, it's pretty fun and familar, but lacks any real interesting deep cuts.  For me it is the weakest of the trilogy.

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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Rise of Skywalker (oh, and The Mandalorian)
« Reply #1966 on: January 08, 2020, 06:56:36 AM »
Rise of Skywalker is very much a Star Wars greatest hits package, it's pretty fun and familar, but lacks any real interesting deep cuts.  For me it is the weakest of the trilogy.

Could not have said it better myself! :lol Although I still think the important emotional moments (Mainly Rey and Kylo), were done pretty well..

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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Rise of Skywalker (oh, and The Mandalorian)
« Reply #1967 on: January 08, 2020, 07:41:35 AM »
Imo Hammil was the best part of TLJ, not just as a character but his acting when I felt the whole cast lacks great acting skills. He was a bright light in that area. I had no issues with him being in exclusion like that. Remember obi wan also excluded himself.

And Yoda. 

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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Rise of Skywalker (oh, and The Mandalorian)
« Reply #1968 on: January 08, 2020, 10:17:13 AM »
Imo Hammil was the best part of TLJ, not just as a character but his acting when I felt the whole cast lacks great acting skills. He was a bright light in that area. I had no issues with him being in exclusion like that. Remember obi wan also excluded himself.

Remember though, the original trilogy was the same thing. Lucas casted Hammil, who was an unknown, and obviously Carrie Fisher who had pedigree but lacked experience. And Harrison Ford wasn't the "name" he ended up becoming. He had American Graffiti under his belt, but that was it. They were all basically unknowns, just like the cast of the sequel trilogy has been. The original trilogy "veteran" was Alec Guiness, who the main cast (Hammil, Ford, Fisher) all credited as bringing a sense of professionalism to the set that made them want to be better actors. I think the same played out here. The acting of the main characters of the sequel trilogy improved over time, and will probably continue to improve in other films, due to the exposure to Ford, Fisher, and Hammil. It's very circular.
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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Rise of Skywalker (oh, and The Mandalorian)
« Reply #1969 on: January 08, 2020, 11:14:23 AM »
Maybe I'm in the minority, but I felt as though the acting in the sequels was generally excellent. Clearly better than the prequels and possibly better than the originals too, IMO.
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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Rise of Skywalker (oh, and The Mandalorian)
« Reply #1970 on: January 08, 2020, 11:25:53 AM »
Maybe I'm in the minority, but I felt as though the acting in the sequels was generally excellent. Clearly better than the prequels and possibly better than the originals too, IMO.
Yes and no, in my opinion.  The acting in the PT was very campy, which can come across as "bad."  But campy is a style, and Lucas was going for that campy Flash Gordon feel, so I don't knock the acting in that regard. 
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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Rise of Skywalker (oh, and The Mandalorian)
« Reply #1971 on: January 08, 2020, 11:46:37 AM »
Imo Hammil was the best part of TLJ, not just as a character but his acting when I felt the whole cast lacks great acting skills. He was a bright light in that area. I had no issues with him being in exclusion like that. Remember obi wan also excluded himself.

Remember though, the original trilogy was the same thing. Lucas casted Hammil, who was an unknown, and obviously Carrie Fisher who had pedigree but lacked experience. And Harrison Ford wasn't the "name" he ended up becoming. He had American Graffiti under his belt, but that was it. They were all basically unknowns, just like the cast of the sequel trilogy has been. The original trilogy "veteran" was Alec Guiness, who the main cast (Hammil, Ford, Fisher) all credited as bringing a sense of professionalism to the set that made them want to be better actors. I think the same played out here. The acting of the main characters of the sequel trilogy improved over time, and will probably continue to improve in other films, due to the exposure to Ford, Fisher, and Hammil. It's very circular.

Yea thats true and Game of Thrones went for unknowns who hit it out of the ballpark immediately.  They could have been better from the get go IMO.  I have no issue with pulling unknowns but it seemed the didn't pick the best unknowns.  But I do agree that the acting in all three trilogies wasn't the greatest as a whole, but the original trilogy was still decent other than Hammill who I felt wasn't the best especially in episode 4 although he got better.

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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Rise of Skywalker (oh, and The Mandalorian)
« Reply #1972 on: January 08, 2020, 11:47:51 AM »
Maybe I'm in the minority, but I felt as though the acting in the sequels was generally excellent. Clearly better than the prequels and possibly better than the originals too, IMO.

I agree. The poor acting in the prequels I blame on terrible scripts and directing (Lucas).

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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Rise of Skywalker (oh, and The Mandalorian)
« Reply #1973 on: January 09, 2020, 11:55:28 AM »
I like the acting in the sequels. People say Daisy and John are weak points, but they both had extremely charming moments. That little WE'LL USE THE FORCE moment between Han and Finn always cracks me up.

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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Rise of Skywalker (oh, and The Mandalorian)
« Reply #1974 on: January 09, 2020, 12:44:28 PM »
I like the acting in the sequels. People say Daisy and John are weak points, but they both had extremely charming moments. That little WE'LL USE THE FORCE moment between Han and Finn always cracks me up.

Not to mention that Adam Driver basically owned each of the three movies with his performance(s).
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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Rise of Skywalker (oh, and The Mandalorian)
« Reply #1975 on: January 09, 2020, 12:52:24 PM »
Oh yea, as far as acting, I'm giving it to the sequels.
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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Rise of Skywalker (oh, and The Mandalorian)
« Reply #1976 on: January 09, 2020, 02:18:00 PM »
I like the acting in the sequels. People say Daisy and John are weak points, but they both had extremely charming moments. That little WE'LL USE THE FORCE moment between Han and Finn always cracks me up.

Not to mention that Adam Driver basically owned each of the three movies with his performance(s).

Which makes this relevant



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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Rise of Skywalker (oh, and The Mandalorian)
« Reply #1977 on: January 09, 2020, 02:26:36 PM »
 :lol    Pretty much. Daisey Ridley and the others did a fine job but Driver was the star of those three movies.....just as Kylo Ren/Ben Solo was the 'best' character in that trilogy.....I'd argue the entire (9) movies.
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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Rise of Skywalker (oh, and The Mandalorian)
« Reply #1978 on: January 10, 2020, 11:51:17 PM »
I'm in a complicated place with the sequel trilogy.

The Force Awakes was a bit safe and had a few flaws, but it did a lot right, and was a welcome return to form.

I absolutely loved The Last Jedi. I thought it was excellent. It developed compelling themes, and left some interesting threads.

Then we come to Rise of Skywalker. This is the film I have the most complicated feelings about.
Daisy Ridley and Adam Driver acted their butts off, while the rest of the main cast was pretty good too. Shame they sidelined Rose, and it was a bummer we didn't get more Leia, though the latter is understandable.

I would have personally made a lot of different choices with the plot.
But at the end of the day, I'm on a kick to be less cynical, and I went into both viewings so far with people who were just genuinely excited to see where this film would go. That excitement was infectious. On the first viewing, I wanted to love it, but was ultimately a bit disappointed. Though there were parts I liked.
The second time, I knew there were parts I didn't like, but I went in knowing it. I was with different friends (the first time I saw it with my brother), who were psyched to see it. I decided to enjoy their wave of enthusiasm and not be a pill about it. This was a good choice, because while I still didn't love it the second time around, I had a genuinely enjoyable time. It was flawed, but I had fun.

Overall, I liked the sequel trilogy. I liked the first, loved the second, and found things to enjoy about the third. The cast was excellent, and once I accepted it wasn't going to be the movie I wanted it to be, I was able to have fun with it. Ian McDiarmaid is always fun to watch. I would have gone a different direction with his involvement, as well as another character's lineage, but whatever. As is, I still had fun.

All in all, the originals are still the best overall, but the sequels were worthwhile (and the prequels even have some interesting acting and thematic elements).

Offline bosk1

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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Rise of Skywalker (oh, and The Mandalorian)
« Reply #1979 on: January 14, 2020, 10:28:14 AM »
I need to finish my episode summaries.  I will get to that shortly.  But a note on Palpatine's return in Rise of Skywalker...

A number of the "rants" about how supposedly "bad" ROS was are really, stupidly inconsistent on at least a few points.  One major one is how Palpatine could show up after obviously being killed in Return of the Jedi.  The rants I have seen on this point are all seem to completely miss the point.  They focus on the line from Revenge of the Sith, which Palpatine repeats in ROS to explain to Kylo why he is back:  "The dark side of the Force is a pathway to many abilities some consider to be unnatural."  They also make sure to mention his line, "I have died before."  So...it is pretty obvious that he did in fact DIE in ROTJ.  That fact is openly acknowledged in ROS.  But then, for some reason I cannot fathom, they then make the leap to "How did Palpatine SURVIVE, when we saw him so conclusively get blown up in Return of the Jedi??  PLOT HOLE!"  Not-Spoiler:  HE DIDN'T SURVIVE!  It's right there in the lines that were emphasized at the outset.  He did in fact die.  And through some mystical "unnatural" application of dark side abilities, his life force was somehow brought back.  There is no inconsistency here.  Like it, don't like it, or whatever.  But there is no inconsistency.  There is just a large part left to the imagination.  Remember when movies did NOT tell you everything, kids? 

Anyhow, I didn't really come to rant about that.  But, apparently, that very fact is confirmed and explained a bit in the Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker Visual Dictionary:
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Palpatine's return is only vaguely alluded to in Episode 9. However, we can surmise that the huge machine the Emperor is attached to keeps him alive, and that he's using Dark Side powers to "cheat death". Now, thanks to the Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker Visual Dictionary, we have more clues as to how the Sith Lord survived.

Remember those mysterious hooded followers? No, not the Knights of Ren, but the other evil Emperor followers, known as the Sith Eternal. Their apparent devotion to the Emperor brought them to Exegol, the Sith planet, where they used "technology and the occult" to bring their leader back to life.

The Visual Dictionary (via Movie Web) explains how they spent decades trying to bring back the Emperor, all while crafting the Final Order's huge fleet of Star Destroyers. These were, the book clarifies, not reused old ships, but brand-new Xyston-class Star Destroyers, manufactured by the "shipwrights, engineers, and slaves" held on Exegol. The parts for the ships were also smuggled to Exegol, hidden by the power of the Sith Eternal.

The crew of these ships are barely seen in Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker, yet the book adds that they were mainly made of the children of the Sith Eternal, born and trained to serve the Final Order. These are also the soldiers under the red Sith Trooper armour.

That's about the gist of it. While there's no specific information on what liquid those test tubes were pumping into the Emperor, we have a slightly better idea of how he returned. No doubt, though, that we will find out more as LucasFilm begins to release more supplementary material about the Emperor's mysterious 30 years on Exegol.
https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/star-wars-rise-skywalker-book-113453052.html

I'm fully on board with movies leaving a lot of details to the imagination.  We don't really NEED to know all the details and all the backstory to answer every question.  If the prequels accomplished anything of substance, I think one of the biggest unintional accomplishments is showing us all that letting our imaginations fill in the blanks is often better than trying to craft a backstory to do that for us.  But that said, while the dialog in ROS was sufficient to establish what was going on with Palpatine being back from the dead for anyone halfway paying attention, I feel like a bit more of this detail actually being in the film would have been helpful.

But a bit more on that later...

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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Rise of Skywalker (oh, and The Mandalorian)
« Reply #1980 on: January 14, 2020, 10:44:13 AM »
Remember when movies did NOT tell you everything, kids? 

. . .

I'm fully on board with movies leaving a lot of details to the imagination.  We don't really NEED to know all the details and all the backstory to answer every question.  If the prequels accomplished anything of substance, I think one of the biggest unintional accomplishments is showing us all that letting our imaginations fill in the blanks is often better than trying to craft a backstory to do that for us.  But that said, while the dialog in ROS was sufficient to establish what was going on with Palpatine being back from the dead for anyone halfway paying attention, I feel like a bit more of this detail actually being in the film would have been helpful.

I agree with all of that (and would go so far as to say that I don't really like that stuff that you quoted, which I think raises a bunch of questions on its own), and I think this contrasts well with the return of Darth Maul in Solo.  That was such a WTF moment for me and many others who hadn't seen the "canon" cartoon series, and there was ZERO explanation in the movie itself.  In TROS, it was explained enough.  It also didn't hurt that they included some "I'm back" audio in the trailers and mentioned Palpatine's return in the opening crawl.
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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Rise of Skywalker (oh, and The Mandalorian)
« Reply #1981 on: January 14, 2020, 01:03:19 PM »
I'm sure the Palpatine story between the return of the jedi to rise of skywalker will be milked for a future spinoff movie or tv series in more detail for everyone to complain about  :biggrin:

In seriousness, a spinoff on the dark side of the force with a "joker" type of spin could be really good.

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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Rise of Skywalker (oh, and The Mandalorian)
« Reply #1982 on: January 14, 2020, 01:06:23 PM »
Yeah I guess people who are salty that Palpatine didn't die are just silly and expecting too much even though 40 years ago the camera showed him dropping down a tall shaft and then getting vaporized followed by the entire death star being blown to smithereens

But hey, bring him back anyway and just hand wave his resurgence away with plot armor, because, well, gotta make another film and milk that Palpatine cow

Honestly though, the lack of any setup whatsoever in the first 2 films bothers me waaay more than that

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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Rise of Skywalker (oh, and The Mandalorian)
« Reply #1983 on: January 14, 2020, 01:47:12 PM »
I can't begrudge anyone being bothered by the "no setup" and "milking it" angles.  That didn't bother me.  But I get it.  But what makes me shake my head about the "Palpatine didn't die!" crowd is that they just aren't paying attention and don't have their "facts" straight.  He did die.  Totally dead.  And that is confirmed in ROS.  If people are going to be salty about something, they at least need to have their facts right about the thing they are salty about.
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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Rise of Skywalker (oh, and The Mandalorian)
« Reply #1984 on: January 14, 2020, 01:54:03 PM »
I dislike the assertion that the explanation in TROS was sufficient for anybody "halfway paying attention." I find that insulting because I paid a great deal of attention and was annoyed with it, and a lack of any setup at all is important for making his return to life believable. Not this, "don't question it, he's said he's conquered death before, and he's just back now okay so deal with it" refusal to accept the validity of the questions behind his return...

Sigh. Whatever, Star Wars sucks

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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Rise of Skywalker (oh, and The Mandalorian)
« Reply #1985 on: January 14, 2020, 02:34:18 PM »
I dislike the assertion that the explanation in TROS was sufficient for anybody "halfway paying attention." I find that insulting because I paid a great deal of attention and was annoyed with it, and a lack of any setup at all is important for making his return to life believable. Not this, "don't question it, he's said he's conquered death before, and he's just back now okay so deal with it" refusal to accept the validity of the questions behind his return...

Sigh. Whatever, Star Wars sucks

Thanks for your opinion.  ::) If you think it sucks so much then why post in the thread?

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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Rise of Skywalker (oh, and The Mandalorian)
« Reply #1986 on: January 14, 2020, 02:35:40 PM »
One thing that's always bothered me about SW in general is that pretty much anything can be explained away with some Force-magic hocus pocus nonsense. I mean, sure, Palpatine's return is consistent with the lore of the universe, but it's still executed rather poorly and I don't feel it to be all too compelling in the first place. Maybe if it had been alluded to or actually explored in TFA and/or TLJ I may have been more on board with it. The fact it wasn't is just another symptom of an excessively fragmented and narratively inconsistent trilogy of films.

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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Rise of Skywalker (oh, and The Mandalorian)
« Reply #1987 on: January 14, 2020, 02:37:34 PM »
Ep. IX - The Rise of Skywalker

I loved this film.  The pacing was breakneck, the quest at times didn't feel logical, and the entire thing supposedly playing out over 16 hours caused me some consternation.  But as a whole, this was such a well-done, satisfying conclusion to the Skywalker Saga.  The world-building was, by and large, fantastic.  I loved the new places that were shown, and how they continued to build color and texture to the SW galaxy. 

I loved how things built well from The Last Jedi and how the continuity was so cleverly established, even when on the surface, things seemed to subvert The Last Jedi.  For example, the theme of learning from failures was HUGE in The Last Jedi.  And they used Luke and Rey to hammer that home in ROS.  The scene with Luke catching the lightsaber and talking about giving a Jedi weapon the proper respect as Rey attempted to throw it into the fire was brilliant in that regard. 

Likewise, the themes about the force not belonging to the Jedi, and how one's background/lineage did not give anyone a right to co-opt the force was given a nice twist with Rey being a Palpatine, but ultimately being the supreme source of the light side of the force in this film. 

There were some minor things that bothered me a bit and took me out of the moment.  Since I only saw it once, maybe I just didn't get how they better fit.  But they seemed to be issues from my first viewing anyway, and took me a bit out of the moment of the film when I couldn't quite reconcile them.  For example:
-There seemed to be continuity errors with the broken lightsaber and Kylo's helmet.  The lightsaber could have been repaired, so that is less an issue, I suppose.  A quick throwaway line to that effect would have made this a non-issue.  But Kylo smashing his helmet to bits and leaving it in the elevator, and then the ship being blown up after that, made the odds of him somehow having it in ROS miniscule.  And him having that same helmet wasn't even necessary in ROS, so I'm not sure why it needed to come back.  If JJ wanted him to be helmeted, it would have made more sense to make a new one, or have Palpatine conjure it, or something.
-Silly serendipity has always been part of SW.  That has been true since film #1 (or...er...IV).  But Lando's appearance was still really pushing the envelope, IMO.  Yeah, he had to be worked in.  And they hadn't come up with anything better.  Overall, it's fine.  But still.
-The Final Order fleet also had a handful of ??? issues surrounding it, such as how it broke through the ground, which was visually stunning, but left many of us scratching our heads, and how there was little explanation for the whole navigation tower and lack of shields while in atmosphere thing.  Those both could have worked, but felt underbaked as presented simply because they seemed to present some big continuity issues that called for explanation, but ultimately weren't explained enough for a big enough chunk of the audience to not go, "Hey, wait just a minute..."
I could go on.  But these are ultimately just little things, really.  Again, overall, I think this was a fantastic film.  After only one viewing, I hesitate to rank it.  But as of right now, I feel like I would probably put it at #4 behind (in this order) Rogue One, Empire, and The Force Awakens.

Three things that worked:
1.  Building on TLJ themes (see above)
2.  The death star wreckage.  Yeah, the explosion in ROTJ made it look like it was vaporized.  But in reality, that much metal wouldn't simply vaporize.  If you want to call this a "continuity error," it is one I am willing to accept.  But, man, the scenes around that wreckage were visually and emotionally stunning.
3.  "I know."  Perfect.  Well...almost perfect.  It wasn't clear how much was Leia, how much was the force, and how much was in Kylo's mind.  But then again, it doesn't really matter.
4.  (bonus!!!)  Rey training.  I am so much more willing to accept Rey's ramping up in power when, unlike Luke between episodes V and VI, we actually got to see her doing bona fide hard Jedi training and analyzing ancient Jedi texts.

Three things that didn't:
1.  16 hours.  Come on!  Just extend the friggin' timeline!  This drove me bananas!  And, coupled with it, instantaneous travel everywhere.  :rage:  The only reason I don't ding the movie harder for this is just the simple fact that pretty much ALL the SW movies do the same thing, to one degree or another, so I can't be too hard on this one in comparison. 
2.  The "microwave problem," as I heard it described.  This is kind of related to point #1.  It is the compressed timeline, coupled with the fact that there is SO MUCH crammed into this movie, that it made emotional payoffs during parts of the movie feel unearned.  There were times where there was a supposed payoff, and rather than it feeling slow-baked and satisfying, it felt more like a dish cooked in the microwave.  It still got you there, but was just a bit less satisfying and felt underbaked.
3.  Eh...I can't really think of anything, other than maybe lumping my "minor gripes" above in here.  EDIT:  Okay, here's one:  Lightspeed skipping.  Remove this from the film, and we don't lose anything, but gain not being taken out of the moment going, "hey, wait...I thought...this shouldn't work, should it?"

Minor tweaks that could have made it better:  Just a reminder before I get into this that this section in my little summaries isn't meant to decry "the movie we should have gotten."  As I have said before, I think that is an incredibly silly, presumptuous, and counterproductive exercise.  To me, either accept or reject the movie we actually got.  This is just meant to be a fun little imaginative bit where we pretend we could rewind the clock and be part of the creative team to suggest things that, in retrospect, could have maybe worked better. 

To me, there are two areas of tweaking.  The first is the timeline issue, as mentioned above in issue #1.  Just extend the timeline and show that things are happening over a longer timeframe rather than instantaneously.  The second is a bit more complicated and macro.  It has to do with both pacing and continuity with TLJ.  One way to look at these two films, to me is:  TLJ was too little plot crammed into too much movie, whereas ROS was too much plot crammed into too much movie.  I am going to go back and do a "reboot" of my "minor tweaks" section for TLJ and propose a global "minor tweaks" for both of these films that addresses both of my issues above.  Coming soon to a post near you...

« Last Edit: January 14, 2020, 02:46:53 PM by bosk1 »
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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Rise of Skywalker (oh, and The Mandalorian)
« Reply #1988 on: January 14, 2020, 02:41:15 PM »
I dislike the assertion that the explanation in TROS was sufficient for anybody "halfway paying attention." I find that insulting because I paid a great deal of attention and was annoyed with it, and a lack of any setup at all is important for making his return to life believable. Not this, "don't question it, he's said he's conquered death before, and he's just back now okay so deal with it" refusal to accept the validity of the questions behind his return...

Again, you misunderstand.  Be annoyed with it.  Question it.  Hate it.  That's all valid.  But be correct in your facts.  What I am saying is that many of those criticizing it are basing their criticism on a misunderstanding of the facts that were presented in the movie.  Those facts were indeed laid out "for anyone halfway paying attention."  If you've got the facts straight and it still bothered you, I'm not criticizing that one bit. 
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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Rise of Skywalker (oh, and The Mandalorian)
« Reply #1989 on: January 14, 2020, 03:01:29 PM »
1.  16 hours.  Come on!  Just extend the friggin' timeline!

Well...yeah, but isn't there a time zone difference where you gain back a day or something?


-The Final Order fleet also had a handful of ??? issues surrounding it, such as how it broke through the ground, which was visually stunning, but left many of us scratching our heads

I thought the rose out of an ocean.  (this one is a serious comment)  Of course, that just begs the question of why, on such a remote planet, you have a need to hide things.
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Offline bosk1

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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Rise of Skywalker (oh, and The Mandalorian)
« Reply #1990 on: January 14, 2020, 03:05:46 PM »
Of course, that just begs the question of why, on such a remote planet, you have a need to hide things.

Because your assassins that you send out on missions have knives inscribed with the directions on how to find the thing to help people find your secret base.  Duh!

As far as them coming up out of the ground or ocean, it is hard to tell, because it was a dark scene and there was that strobe effect, and it is really brief.  But just watching that clip from the trailer, it really looks like it is the ground.  If you are right and it is water, that actually makes more sense.
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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Rise of Skywalker (oh, and The Mandalorian)
« Reply #1991 on: January 14, 2020, 03:32:22 PM »
One thing that's always bothered me about SW in general is that pretty much anything can be explained away with some Force-magic hocus pocus nonsense. I mean, sure, Palpatine's return is consistent with the lore of the universe, but it's still executed rather poorly and I don't feel it to be all too compelling in the first place. Maybe if it had been alluded to or actually explored in TFA and/or TLJ I may have been more on board with it. The fact it wasn't is just another symptom of an excessively fragmented and narratively inconsistent trilogy of films.

Yeah, as other said before: they should have simply mapped out the entire trilogy from the get-go, or at the very least mark down the most important plot points and character arcs leaving room for the secondary ones to evolve. It would have been awesome to look back to all the hints in the previous two movies and seeing Palpatine's invisible shadow all over it, but bringing him back all of a sudden is the equivalent of a reunion with a key member of a band because the previous tour wasn't received well enough.

At least his scenes were cool, and his presence wasn't dragged but they actually opened the damn movie with it, that caught me pleasantly off guard!
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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Rise of Skywalker (oh, and The Mandalorian)
« Reply #1992 on: January 14, 2020, 05:00:15 PM »
I think Ian McDiarmid is the one universally praised aspect of the movie. He stole every scene he was in :)

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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Rise of Skywalker (oh, and The Mandalorian)
« Reply #1993 on: January 14, 2020, 05:05:38 PM »
Of course, that just begs the question of why, on such a remote planet, you have a need to hide things.

Because your assassins that you send out on missions have knives inscribed with the directions on how to find the thing to help people find your secret base.  Duh!

As far as them coming up out of the ground or ocean, it is hard to tell, because it was a dark scene and there was that strobe effect, and it is really brief.  But just watching that clip from the trailer, it really looks like it is the ground.  If you are right and it is water, that actually makes more sense.

I Never thought or got the impression it was ground.....always looked like water to me.
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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Rise of Skywalker (oh, and The Mandalorian)
« Reply #1994 on: January 14, 2020, 05:08:55 PM »
I always thought it looked like ice.