Author Topic: Star Wars Discussion Thread v. Rise of Skywalker / Mandalorian (merged)  (Read 247051 times)

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Offline MirrorMask

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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Rise of Skywalker (oh, and The Mandalorian)
« Reply #1890 on: January 02, 2020, 02:59:05 PM »
At the end of the prequel trilogy his memory was wiped. That's when he got the No Sith update as well.
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Offline The Walrus

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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Rise of Skywalker (oh, and The Mandalorian)
« Reply #1891 on: January 02, 2020, 03:01:53 PM »
At the end of the prequel trilogy his memory was wiped. That's when he got the No Sith update as well.

Thank you. I hadn't thought of that, and it could potentially make sense, I suppose (I'm not immediately thinking of anything that could get in the way of that working).
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Offline bosk1

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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Rise of Skywalker (oh, and The Mandalorian)
« Reply #1892 on: January 02, 2020, 03:07:28 PM »
OK, two things:

1.  Stadler can read this first part if he so chooses, because no spoilers in this first paragraph.  I view the questions you posted as "nitpicking" because...well, because that's my opinion of what you posted, that's all.  Most of those are simply unanswered questions.  But none of them do anything to somehow make the film of any lesser quality.  You are certainly entitled to feel that they are more than that.  And you are certainly entitled to not like the film because of that.  But to feel that anyone who disagrees must somehow lack your mental faculties or level of discernment is pretty rude and pretentious.  But no need to beat a dead horse on that.

Many of the issues you raise are simply unanswered questions.  Yeah, you and others might find it unsatisfactory that some questions are not answered.  But most of those just aren't a big deal to me, and I don't see them as a reason to criticize the film.  It's kind of like getting wound up over a particular unnamed beach goer in Jaws, and criticizing the film because certain questions about that person aren't answered.  "But WHY was the woman in the blue jacket on the beach to begin with?  Why was she wearing a jacket if she was at the beach in the first place?  That makes no sense to me whatsoever!  And what is her story?  Why doesn't she have a name in the end credits?  She is clearly important or she wouldn't have been in the film, so why isn't her back story explored at all?"  If someone has a burning desire to know the answers to those questions, and no knowing has an impact on their enjoyment of the film, so be it.  But those questions aren't important to me and do not impact MY enjoyment of the film. 

2.  SPOILERS BELOW!  Too many points to use tiny font, so just avert your eyes from the rest of this post if you haven't seen the film yet!  You've been warned!




















































Keep in mind this guy also literally said Rise of Skywalker has no flaws, so either he's got blinders on or his ability to critically think has taken a beating.
???  Not sure I follow.

Explain C3PO's Sith block. Why on earth would Anakin include that as a little kid? HOW, even, would he program him with that information?

Are you asking ME to explain it, or expressing that there is no explanation?  If the former, I can't.  There was no explanation given, so how could I?  It wasn't explained, but I also don't feel like we, the audience, needed it to be explained.  See my "unanswered questions" point above.  If it bothers you that it wasn't explored or explained, that's cool.  The film makers did not see fit to provide an answer, and at least some in the audience, myself included, do not feel that one is needed.  If I were to dwell on it and posit possible explanations myself, a few come to mind.  But as a preliminary point, none of them necessitate that Anakin provided that programming.  He was put forth as someone who was adept at building, not necessarily programming.  I never really put any thought into how he would have programmed C3PO.  But if I had to go back and retroactively speculate, I would assume that he put the parts together, and the protocol droid processor had all the intricate layers of 3PO's programming already installed (or maybe he got a chip or a download after the fact or something), and then he just custom tweaked a few basic things to make 3PO "his."  I dunno.  Truth be told, I think the whole plot point of Anakin building 3PO was kinda dumb to begin with.  But that is a prequel problem that the SW universe is stuck with now.  But in any case, that particular protocol seems like it would logically have been one little bit of programming that came as part of the "protocol droid software package" that would have been installed at some point (whether initially, or a later "software package upgrade," or after his memory was wiped, or whenever), and not something Anakin would have had any reason to custom install. 

Why does the Sith dagger magically fit the wreckage of the Death Star, from that very convenient specific location, like an Indiana Jones fanfic?

See "unanswered questions" above.  No biggie.  And, again, my answer is: I don't know, and don't really care.  My speculation, if I felt the need to speculate, is that either (1) [seems to me more likely] the dagger was created, or at least modified to also serve as a map to the wayfinder, after the Battle of Endor and thus after the wreckage found its way there.  Or (2) the force guided its past creator to make it a certain shape because it would correspond to that future wreckage and play a part in the series of events the force was guiding to happen.  But again, I don't really need to know the answer to that.  It doesn't impact my ability to enjoy the film.  And I'm going to stop repeating that now, because it applies to all of these points.

Why do they act like flying Storm Troopers is something new?

Because...from what we've seen in the SW films up to this point, storm troopers using jet packs (or, at least, that type of jet pack) is something new.  Why is that, of all things, a problem?  I don't understand.  ???

What purpose did Finn serve in this film?

What do you mean by that?  There are a lot of different directions to go with that, and I'm not sure I want to speculate about what you mean and write a treatise that I don't have time to write.  Suffice to say that, if he didn't play the role you thought he should have, so what?  If he was underdeveloped and "wasted" as a character given the potential they set up in earlier films, then yeah, kind of a bummer.  But, again, so what?  Why is that a HUGE problem vs. a mere annoyance that a character you like or think should have been developed a certain way wasn't?

Where did they set up Palpatine's connections to this trilogy in the other two films?

They didn't.  At least, not directly.  Again, why is that a major issue?  They didn't set up in IV or V that Ewoks would have a connection to the OT prior to them magically appearing on the scene in ep. VI either.  That's just how things work.  Yes, this is perhaps more of an issue, because many feel that it was not decided on until after ep. VIII, and they are bothered that such a major plot point was not already decided upon by Kathleen Kennedy or others when they were mapping out the whole thing.  Maybe that's true.  Maybe they DID decide on that, or were at least leaning that direction earlier, but didn't want to even give the slightest hint beforehand.  I can't say.  But I also don't really need for that to have been the case to enjoy this film or any of the ones that preceded it.

What was the point of introducing Zorii Bliss, who served zero purpose in this film?

Well, I think your point isn't that she served "zero" purpose, because she obviously served as a plot device.  I think your point is that her purpose was so minor that we didn't need a new character to do anything she did, and that it could have been anybody.  That's a completely fair point.  She didn't need to exist as a character.  But, again, so what?  Neither did Blue Jacket Beachgoer in Jaws.  And on and on.  So what?  Yeah, as a creative decision, in retrospect, the film could have been trimmed down and been more streamlined and had less distractions if a different creative decision had been made.  But at the end of the day, again, that's just a creative decision that arguably might have been done better.  You don't like it.  Some do.  Some don't care one way or the other.  So what?  How is any one of those opinions somehow superior to another?

How did everybody on the Resistance's side make it to Exogol and back when it was shown to be a massive PITA getting there in the first place?

Dunno.  See "unanswered questions" above.  I think it was kind of implied that when they sent out the "we need everybody to come and fight" message, they sent it with instructions on where to go and how to get there, which were derived from the wayfinder.  Or something like that.

Why is the Death Star wreckage even there after we all saw it vaporized?

Because, although not believable given what the explosion looked like, it served a plot purpose and they expect us to suspend our belief somewhat.   :biggrin:  Yeah, that may be a bit of a cop out.  But films, whether Star Wars or not, ask us to make those sort of suspensions of belief all the time.  If that leap was too big for some, I get it.  But it seems like a relatively minor one in comparison to others the SW films have asked the audience to make.  Honestly, expecting wreckage of something THAT large to end up on nearby moons after it was blown up seems a lot LESS of a stretch than, say, humans and human-sized aliens having developed on COUNTLESS worlds throughout a galaxy.  At some point, you have to either accept these kinds of things or just admit that this genre of films isn't for you. 

Kind of a related point:  To me, if anything, viewing parts of the wreckage being on nearby moons of the same planet as a "flaw" is less a flaw in Rise of Skywalker as it is simply making us retroactively understanding that there was a flaw in Return of the Jedi for having it look like the reactor exploding would have completely vaporized all parts of that gigantic space station in the first place.  But, again, I'm willing to overlook that.  Those kinds of things are just inherent in this type of film and you either roll with it or you don't.

Why bring back a character who had no reason to be back if not because they had no idea where they were going with this trilogy's story?

I'm not sure I understand.  Are you talking about Palpatine, or something else?  If Palpatine, didn't we already address that point above?  Or am I missing something?


EDIT:  Well, shoot, others posted while I was typing that, so apologies for any duplication if others have said anything I am now saying.
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Offline The Walrus

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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Rise of Skywalker (oh, and The Mandalorian)
« Reply #1893 on: January 02, 2020, 03:12:06 PM »
Y'know I appreciate you taking the time to - finally, for a change - respond in detail, but you upset me so badly earlier that I really don't even care to read it at this point, tbh; could've helped if you had done that at the start. Thanks though.
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Offline bosk1

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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Rise of Skywalker (oh, and The Mandalorian)
« Reply #1894 on: January 02, 2020, 03:21:45 PM »
... it only seems that way because Bosk would rather be passive aggressive and make snarky shrug responses instead of addressing the valid conversation points I bring up

Dude, there's no intent to be passive aggressive or snarky.  It's just that, to me, most of the criticisms I have seen are just nitpicking.  If you feel otherwise, and you don't like the film, that's fine.  But a good many people feel that those are nitpicks that don't move the needle and make the film somehow inferior.  And I don't really feel the need to justify those little points.  It's more your propensity to say that anyone who dares disagree with you must somehow be mentally deficient for not agreeing with the almighty opinion of Katt that I object to.  Dude, we all have opinions.  Just get off the high horse and let others have theirs without attacking their mental faculties.  Or, as Jingle put it:

Katt... it's a valid criticism but not one that busts my nut

It's your prerogative to be bothered by this stuff.  But you can't expect everyone else to be bothered by what bothers you, and, respectfully, it's kinda pretentious to practically demand others to be.



Anyhow, moving on to this...

I’ll just bring up one topic - one that has been repeatedly lamented about:  timing.  First, wasn’t the message from the ‘spy’  that there was 16 hours until this new fleet would launch?  How did all of the events of this movie happen in the span of 16 hours?  Hell, it would’ve takin Rey a few hours just to sail to and climb up the crashed Death Star.  ...

Yeah, I've made that criticism myself, several times.  I don't remember whether I specifically mentioned it in connection with this film, but it certainly applies, both to things you mentioned, and to others you have not.  It bugs me and is one of my overarching criticisms of this entire series of films.  But the problem is that it is SO pervasive--not only in these films, but in others as well.  It just seems like modern storytellers have gotten lazy in this regard.  But I can't hold it specifically against this particular film when the entire 9 film saga, as well as its spinoffs, has the same problem.  And the MCU has it.  And Harry Potter.  And...etc.  It is what it is.
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Offline The Walrus

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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Rise of Skywalker (oh, and The Mandalorian)
« Reply #1895 on: January 02, 2020, 03:22:49 PM »
EDIT: forget it. Not doing myself any favors here trying to talk to you, just gonna get a ban
« Last Edit: January 02, 2020, 03:31:13 PM by Kattelox »
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Offline bosk1

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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Rise of Skywalker (oh, and The Mandalorian)
« Reply #1896 on: January 02, 2020, 03:31:14 PM »
One last time:  It's a Star Wars thread.  Not a "take shots at bosk" thread.  As many times as I've had to tell you to not make it personal, the next time you do, no matter how minor, it is going to get you booted from here, because I'm tired of having to repeat myself and give you warnings.  You can complain all you want about whether you think that's fair or hypocritical or whatever.  I don't care.  I've told you to stop, and I've given you fair warning that, minor or not, I'm not going to keep repeating that.  Do with that information what you choose.
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Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Rise of Skywalker (oh, and The Mandalorian)
« Reply #1897 on: January 02, 2020, 03:31:50 PM »
I had some problems with the film, but most of those aren't on my list.

The film certainly isn't perfect, but NONE of them pass the Godfather test, so that's fine.
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Offline DoctorAction

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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Rise of Skywalker (oh, and The Mandalorian)
« Reply #1898 on: January 02, 2020, 03:40:08 PM »
I enjoyed it. Have enjoyed all of the last trilogy but TLJ the least. Some opinions:

Rey, Po and Finn all seemed to have relaxed into it now, but Daisy Ridley and Adam Driver have really been terrific.

It's nice that the franchise has recovered from the awful prequel trilogy.

I totally get that there are awkward holes in this movie but Star Wars has never been deep afaic so nothing burned me. I'm infinitely more invested in Star Trek. Can't wait for more Discovery (omg talk about a series with massive holes and issues that was still really enjoyable) and Picard.
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Offline jingle.boy

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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Rise of Skywalker (oh, and The Mandalorian)
« Reply #1899 on: January 02, 2020, 03:56:53 PM »
Katt... it's a valid criticism but not one that busts my nut

It's your prerogative to be bothered by this stuff.  But you can't expect everyone else to be bothered by what bothers you, and, respectfully, it's kinda pretentious to practically demand others to be.

I was trying to let all this shit slide, but I'm not so good at that.  Since you've quoted me, please point out when, where, and how ANYONE (ie, me and Katt since we're the two most vocal on this issue) have been rude, pretentious, or "expect" / "practically demand" others to be bothered the way we are.  Please quote the direct post/text that you drew this conclusion from.

Also, Doctor ... don't derail the thread by bringing up Star Trek.  Stay on topic



 :lol :lol

jk
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Offline Polarbear

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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Rise of Skywalker (oh, and The Mandalorian)
« Reply #1900 on: January 03, 2020, 04:26:22 AM »
After thinking about this way too much and after 2 viewings, I think TROS is a bit of a mess. But nevertheless I think it does the important story beats very well.

Spolers if someone has not seen it already

Rey Palpatine is a big logic leap, but in the end I kinda liked it, and it brings her story into a nice conclusion. Kylo's redemption was done well, but like everything in this movie it feels a bit rushed. There is too much story in this movie! So much so that the best moments almost get drowned into the stream of events that happen very quickly. But overall this movie, even with it's numerous problems, manages to bring everything into a relatively nice conclusion. I hope the Skywalker Saga is done and they won't open the can of worms again with Episode 10...

I will buy the rumored 4K Blu Ray boxset of the entire "Skywalker Saga" when it becomes available, and I'm eager to see this again.


And here is my current ranking with TROS:

1. The Empire Strikes Back
2. A New Hope

3. The Force Awakens
4. Return of the Jedi
5. The Last Jedi

6. Solo
7. Rogue One
8. The Rise of Skywalker
9. Revenge of the Sith

10. The Phantom Menace

11. Attack of the Clones
« Last Edit: January 03, 2020, 06:41:06 AM by Polarbear »

Offline Polarbear

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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Rise of Skywalker (oh, and The Mandalorian)
« Reply #1901 on: January 03, 2020, 06:43:49 AM »
And the Skywalker Saga 4K Blu-Ray Boxset is no longer a rumor it seems! :lol

https://www.gamespot.com/articles/star-wars-skywalker-saga-4k-uhd-box-set-up-for-pre/1100-6472454/

Offline kaos2900

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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Rise of Skywalker (oh, and The Mandalorian)
« Reply #1902 on: January 03, 2020, 06:50:40 AM »
And the Skywalker Saga 4K Blu-Ray Boxset is no longer a rumor it seems! :lol

https://www.gamespot.com/articles/star-wars-skywalker-saga-4k-uhd-box-set-up-for-pre/1100-6472454/

I saw that. I think I'm just going to purchase the single 4K editions. Will look better in my collection.

Offline Orbert

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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Rise of Skywalker (oh, and The Mandalorian)
« Reply #1903 on: January 03, 2020, 06:52:01 AM »
Whoa.  $250 for a 27-disc boxed set is actually a hell of a deal.  For me, it would come down to which version(s) of the OT are included.

Offline Phoenix87x

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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Rise of Skywalker (oh, and The Mandalorian)
« Reply #1904 on: January 03, 2020, 07:08:00 AM »
For me, it would come down to which version(s) of the OT are included.

This 100%. If they include the un-altered original versions of the OT, then I would gladly pay that package deal price to have them.

Other than that I already own the ones I want so we'll see.

Offline Grappler

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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Rise of Skywalker (oh, and The Mandalorian)
« Reply #1905 on: January 03, 2020, 07:42:25 AM »
Are you asking ME to explain it, or expressing that there is no explanation?  If the former, I can't.  There was no explanation given, so how could I?  It wasn't explained, but I also don't feel like we, the audience, needed it to be explained. 

I think this is the crux of every Star Wars complaint over the last 4 years.  In 1977, the original movie came out and viewers were quite literally dropped into the middle of a story.  Things were already happening...we got the opening crawl and then the film starts with the action already in progress.  There was no explanation of anything in the Star Wars universe.  We didn't get a history of Jedi Knights for a long time, or even Vader's backstory until the third film.  Even then it was just an adjustment of "Vader did kill Anakin...from a certain point of view." 

Now some fans DEMAND a detailed explanation of who characters are (SNOKE MUST BE DARTH PLAGEUS, GIVE ME HIS BACKSTORY AND IF HE ISN'T PLAGEUS I'M GOING TO RIOT) or small details in each film.  If something goes unexplained, or if the Legend stories aren't shoehorned into the films to make them canon again, fans seem to be too frustrated and forget to just sit back and enjoy the ride. 

Offline TheOutlawXanadu

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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Rise of Skywalker (oh, and The Mandalorian)
« Reply #1906 on: January 03, 2020, 08:58:50 AM »
Are you asking ME to explain it, or expressing that there is no explanation?  If the former, I can't.  There was no explanation given, so how could I?  It wasn't explained, but I also don't feel like we, the audience, needed it to be explained. 

I think this is the crux of every Star Wars complaint over the last 4 years.  In 1977, the original movie came out and viewers were quite literally dropped into the middle of a story.  Things were already happening...we got the opening crawl and then the film starts with the action already in progress.  There was no explanation of anything in the Star Wars universe.  We didn't get a history of Jedi Knights for a long time, or even Vader's backstory until the third film.  Even then it was just an adjustment of "Vader did kill Anakin...from a certain point of view." 

Now some fans DEMAND a detailed explanation of who characters are (SNOKE MUST BE DARTH PLAGEUS, GIVE ME HIS BACKSTORY AND IF HE ISN'T PLAGEUS I'M GOING TO RIOT) or small details in each film.  If something goes unexplained, or if the Legend stories aren't shoehorned into the films to make them canon again, fans seem to be too frustrated and forget to just sit back and enjoy the ride. 

It seems to me like no one can agree on what information is actually necessary. For example, someone mentioned a few pages ago that they wanted to know how Luke's light saber was recovered. In my opinion, that doesn't really matter, and if they tried explaining it, there would be significant disaster potential. But I know that a lot of people would strongly disagree with me on that point. There's no consensus on anything.
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Offline The Walrus

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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Rise of Skywalker (oh, and The Mandalorian)
« Reply #1907 on: January 03, 2020, 09:07:46 AM »
I think part of the problem is Star Wars' massive widespread appeal and just how many people as a result don't care quite as much about the finer details as others. Like, there are people who are bigger Star Wars fans than I am who don't have the issues I have with the series. That's totally cool. I just don't like when complaints about things that don't jibe with other films are labeled as 'nitpicking.' Game of Thrones was eviscerated by a large chunk of its fandom for the decisions characters would make in the last two seasons. I don't know why that seems to be problematic when it's Star Wars. But, oh well. Everybody's different.

I'm actually of the belief that these films aren't able to do Star Wars justice anymore. I've felt for a long time that HBO-style series with massive budgets would be a better fit, because that's roughly 10 hours of screentime vs. 2 or 2.5. Mandalorian knocked it out of the park. Honestly I think it would be really cool if the next 'Episode' film (Episode X, that is) was actually spread across an entire Disney+ season, y'know? Like, I'm sure this won't happen, but they could announce a new series that would effectively serve as the next 'trilogy.' Episode X could then be told across the first season, then the second season would be Episode XI... it would allow so much more time for story and character development and they could fit all the stuff in that they just don't have time for in the flicks.
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Offline ProfessorPeart

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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Rise of Skywalker (oh, and The Mandalorian)
« Reply #1908 on: January 03, 2020, 09:16:37 AM »
Great points, Firewings. It's probably why I am so much more a TV guy than a movie guy. I appreciate the slow burn and build-up of a story arc over a season. I gravitate to TV way more than movies and probably for that reason.

And with the plethora of amazing TV on streaming services these days, I honestly have very little desire to watch movies. It takes a lot to drag me into a movie now. When I was younger, I probably saw 2 or 3 movies a month in the theater. Now I might go every other year and that's it. There's something to say about storybuilding and movies just don't have that luxury.
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Offline The Walrus

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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Rise of Skywalker (oh, and The Mandalorian)
« Reply #1909 on: January 03, 2020, 09:18:23 AM »
Right? I'm trying to imagine The Witcher, for example, as a 2.5 hour movie instead of the full season that just came out. It wouldn't work nearly as well.
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Offline bosk1

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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Rise of Skywalker (oh, and The Mandalorian)
« Reply #1910 on: January 03, 2020, 09:19:02 AM »
I just don't like when complaints about things that don't jibe with other films are labeled as 'nitpicking.'

OK.  But, if I may ask, why?  "Nitpicking" isn't a bad word.  There's literally zero negative connotation to it and zero insult factor to it.  So why does it bother you?
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Offline The Walrus

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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Rise of Skywalker (oh, and The Mandalorian)
« Reply #1911 on: January 03, 2020, 09:20:11 AM »
I just don't like when complaints about things that don't jibe with other films are labeled as 'nitpicking.'

OK.  But, if I may ask, why?  "Nitpicking" isn't a bad word.  There's literally zero negative connotation to it and zero insult factor to it.  So why does it bother you?

The definition of nitpicking (which you'll see does not have 'literally zero negative connotation' to it):

"looking for small or unimportant errors or faults, especially in order to criticize unnecessarily."

I don't think some of the stuff I find problematic is 'small or unimportant' and I certainly don't think I've been criticizing it unnecessarily. That's why it bothers me and why the way you've framed my criticism bothers me. That's all. EDIT: I could discuss this in PM with you more if you want, but I'm not very interested in rehashing yesterday's kerfuffle, please
« Last Edit: January 03, 2020, 09:32:52 AM by Kattelox »
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Offline TheOutlawXanadu

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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Rise of Skywalker (oh, and The Mandalorian)
« Reply #1912 on: January 03, 2020, 09:54:03 AM »
"Nitpicking" is obviously very subjective, as one person's unimportant detail could be another's important detail. In my opinion, not explaining The Emperor's resurrection is an example of a pretty important omission. The guy appeared to die in the most definitive way possible back in ROTJ, so it is important to me how he could still be alive. If the answer is simply that "stuff happens in Star Wars", then it kind of diminishes the whole thing, IMO. Star Wars has always kind of not made sense, but there was at least an effort being made. Not explaining something like The Emperor feels like giving up. :lol
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Offline Architeuthis

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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Rise of Skywalker (oh, and The Mandalorian)
« Reply #1913 on: January 03, 2020, 10:02:14 AM »
 The Force Awakens would have been a much better movie if they didn't OFF Han Solo the way they did.   The Han Solo we all know would have never fallen for that trick.  They should have had him go out in a blaze of glory somehow..
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Offline Stadler

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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Rise of Skywalker (oh, and The Mandalorian)
« Reply #1914 on: January 03, 2020, 10:04:03 AM »
I had some problems with the film, but most of those aren't on my list.

The film certainly isn't perfect, but NONE of them pass the Godfather test, so that's fine.

Wait, what? 

Offline lordxizor

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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Rise of Skywalker (oh, and The Mandalorian)
« Reply #1915 on: January 03, 2020, 10:05:45 AM »
The Force Awakens would have been a much better movie if they didn't OFF Han Solo the way they did.   The Han Solo we all know would have never fallen for that trick.  They should have had him go out in a blaze of glory somehow..
He didn't fall for it. He knew fully well what was likely to happen when he confronted Ben. As a father, he had to try.

Offline gmillerdrake

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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Rise of Skywalker (oh, and The Mandalorian)
« Reply #1916 on: January 03, 2020, 10:14:29 AM »
The Force Awakens would have been a much better movie if they didn't OFF Han Solo the way they did.   The Han Solo we all know would have never fallen for that trick.  They should have had him go out in a blaze of glory somehow..
He didn't fall for it. He knew fully well what was likely to happen when he confronted Ben. As a father, he had to try.

Exactly. He knew the entire time that Ren would kill him. You see it in his face each of the two times Leai asks him to bring Ben home. He confronted Ren to save his son Ben full well knowing he’d most likely die not only out of the love for his son but for his love for Leai.
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Offline Stadler

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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Rise of Skywalker (oh, and The Mandalorian)
« Reply #1917 on: January 03, 2020, 10:16:41 AM »
I think part of the problem is Star Wars' massive widespread appeal and just how many people as a result don't care quite as much about the finer details as others. Like, there are people who are bigger Star Wars fans than I am who don't have the issues I have with the series. That's totally cool. I just don't like when complaints about things that don't jibe with other films are labeled as 'nitpicking.' Game of Thrones was eviscerated by a large chunk of its fandom for the decisions characters would make in the last two seasons. I don't know why that seems to be problematic when it's Star Wars. But, oh well. Everybody's different.

I think I've spoken to this before.  Star Wars was never intended - even in the expanded form - to be the equivalent of a  seven-novels-at-1000-pages-a-piece immersion.   It was at it's heart an homage to the serials of the 50's.   It never had sisters conceiving with their brother, fathers burning their daughters at the stake, etc. etc.  I think Lucas screwed himself with the prequels (particularly the first ep, the Phantom Menace) by implying it had that gravitas, but while there is a canon with the novels and what not, it wasn't ever intended to be that meticulous and intricate.   This is partly my point with the comments I made above; at some point, sure, if Luke becomes an incestuous crackhead with a parrot and a limp, it's one thing.  But I think there's a bit of leniency to be had here.  Just like when Leroy Jethro Gibbs gets blown to an inch of his life, and ends the episode in a hospital bed with tubes up his peepee, then the next episode is back at his desk with a bandaid on his cheek. 

Offline gmillerdrake

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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Rise of Skywalker (oh, and The Mandalorian)
« Reply #1918 on: January 03, 2020, 10:35:05 AM »
I'm actually of the belief that these films aren't able to do Star Wars justice anymore. I've felt for a long time that HBO-style series with massive budgets would be a better fit, because that's roughly 10 hours of screentime vs. 2 or 2.5. Mandalorian knocked it out of the park. Honestly I think it would be really cool if the next 'Episode' film (Episode X, that is) was actually spread across an entire Disney+ season, y'know? Like, I'm sure this won't happen, but they could announce a new series that would effectively serve as the next 'trilogy.' Episode X could then be told across the first season, then the second season would be Episode XI... it would allow so much more time for story and character development and they could fit all the stuff in that they just don't have time for in the flicks.

This 1000%!!!  There's a trick to being able to pull off telling a story in 2-1/2 to 3 hours in the motion picture format. I said it a couple times in this SW 'debate'....I think one of the largest issues that SW faces is that it's facing a ton of incredible content that is available to us now....whereas 30+ years ago the only competition was other movies.....half of which weren't any good anyways.

The amount of awesome content and available platforms that are able to take their time and flesh out a character arc or story line 'spoils' us to the point of when a movie doesn't pull it off to those levels that we're used to.....and is just a 'movie'.....we nitpick. And we nitpick because the standard and the bar is pretty dang high these days....and in the case of a Disney backed movie there really should be no reason for any of their output to not be top notch.

For me....as I've stated a few times....I'm pretty much all good with the latest trilogy. Yes there are some issues with all the movies here and there....but I still enjoyed them all and am pretty happy with the way it all went down. But I can understand why some aren't.
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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Rise of Skywalker (oh, and The Mandalorian)
« Reply #1919 on: January 03, 2020, 10:40:52 AM »
I just want to say that for all my problems with The Rise of Skywalker, it gave us our new lord and savior, Babu Frik. So, it did something VERY right. Long live Babu Frik!
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Offline ProfessorPeart

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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Rise of Skywalker (oh, and The Mandalorian)
« Reply #1920 on: January 03, 2020, 10:52:19 AM »
I just want to say that for all my problems with The Rise of Skywalker, it gave us our new lord and savior, Babu Frik. So, it did something VERY right. Long live Babu Frik!

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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Rise of Skywalker (oh, and The Mandalorian)
« Reply #1921 on: January 03, 2020, 10:56:01 AM »
The Force Awakens would have been a much better movie if they didn't OFF Han Solo the way they did.   The Han Solo we all know would have never fallen for that trick.  They should have had him go out in a blaze of glory somehow..
He didn't fall for it. He knew fully well what was likely to happen when he confronted Ben. As a father, he had to try.

Exactly. He knew the entire time that Ren would kill him. You see it in his face each of the two times Leai asks him to bring Ben home. He confronted Ren to save his son Ben full well knowing he’d most likely die not only out of the love for his son but for his love for Leai.
Still a lame way to go out, being killed by his loose cannon son!   I think it would have been better if Solo showed some tough love in that situation.  :corn
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Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Rise of Skywalker (oh, and The Mandalorian)
« Reply #1922 on: January 03, 2020, 12:46:51 PM »
I had some problems with the film, but most of those aren't on my list.

The film certainly isn't perfect, but NONE of them pass the Godfather test, so that's fine.

Wait, what?
The Godfather test.  "Could <insert movie> realistically have been made any better than it is?"

The only movies to which the answer to that question would be "No" are perfect movies.  The Godfather is one such example.  Hence, the Godfather test.

Not surprised you aren't familiar with it.  I made it up myself.



TLDR: none of the previous Star Wars films are perfect, so no one should be shocked that this one isn't either.
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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Rise of Skywalker (oh, and The Mandalorian)
« Reply #1923 on: January 03, 2020, 12:51:12 PM »
I had some problems with the film, but most of those aren't on my list.

The film certainly isn't perfect, but NONE of them pass the Godfather test, so that's fine.

Wait, what?
The Godfather test.  "Could <insert movie> realistically have been made any better than it is?"

The only movies to which the answer to that question would be "No" are perfect movies.  The Godfather is one such example.  Hence, the Godfather test.

Not surprised you aren't familiar with it.  I made it up myself.



TLDR: none of the previous Star Wars films are perfect, so no one should be shocked that this one isn't either.

Haha, that got a laugh out loud.


For the record, I generally cite The Godfather as my favorite movie of all time (Dr. Zhivago is in the top five, as is Star Wars).

Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Rise of Skywalker (oh, and The Mandalorian)
« Reply #1924 on: January 03, 2020, 03:46:03 PM »
Those are great choices.  My top 5 (depending on the day of course) would normally include The Godfather. Raiders of the Lost Ark, Citizen Kane, Casablanca, and Ghostbusters.
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