Star Wars Discussion Thread v. Rise of Skywalker / Mandalorian (merged)

[jingle.boy]

A much better episode but still some very poor writing moments that just take me out of it.

Like the scene where Obi and Reva talking about killing Vader right in earshot of a platoon of Stormtroopers  .  Yeah better episode, but it was basically the finale of The Last Jedi on a smaller scale, and the de-aged graphics of Anakin vs Obi looked like a Xbox 1 vs 1 beat em up.

I must be in the minority here... I thought it was one of the weakest of the series.

I have trouble accepting Reva would have been strong enough to emotionally hold on to her anger and revenge factor while being trained/broken as an Inquisitor
So, Old-Man Kenobi who hasn't picked up a lightsaber in 10 years can hold off and deflect a battalion's worth of fire power?  When active Masters were taken down by much less in Order 66?
Since when do laser cannons need to be "re-loaded"?
Why didn't Reva force pull the thermal detonator out of Talia's hands (vs shouting "run")
If Vader could force pull down that ship, why didn't he just hold on to the 2nd/actual escape transport?
How is being impaled by a lightsaber just a flesh wound?
If Anakin decapitated Dooku, Vader surely would've done the exact same to Reva.
And don't get me started with Leia or Lola.

Too many things that were simply too obviously far-fetched, and non-sensical.

[ariich]

Too many things that were simply too obviously far-fetched, and non-sensical.

It's like you've never watched Star Wars before.

[Grappler]

Seeing Vader's full power using the force against a lightsaber was badass.   

[gmillerdrake]

I have trouble accepting Reva would have been strong enough to emotionally hold on to her anger and revenge factor while being trained/broken as an Inquisitor

This has been an issue the whole series.....The Inquisitors are essentially Vader's personal trained pets who obey him blindly. Her attitude and demeanor this entire time was suspect and it's tough to believe Vader didn't know this. Only reason would be that he was bored and allowed this whole thing to happen for fun....

So, Old-Man Kenobi who hasn't picked up a lightsaber in 10 years can hold off and deflect a battalion's worth of fire power?  When active Masters were taken down by much less in Order 66?

I don't have a problem with this because Kenobi was/is a extremely powerful Jedi. I don't think it's too tough to believe he could knock off the rust pretty quickly. I was a heck of a ping-pong player back in the day....recently found myself in a situation where we were at a house with a table and some folks there were playing that were pretty good. First game or two I was rusty and got beat but before long I didn't surrender the table all night. Not exactly the same but same concept

If Vader could force pull down that ship, why didn't he just hold on to the 2nd/actual escape transport?

Don't have an issue with this either. The sheer amount of force 'strength' or whatever you call it to pull that off has been shown to be extremely draining in the movies/shows that SW's has released. I think he blew his load on the first ship and simple wasn't able to grab the second one.

How is being impaled by a lightsaber just a flesh wound?

I mentioned this on the last page.....it's becoming a problem that now twice in this show a full blown saber through the body isn't killing anyone anymore. Qui Gon must have been a pu$$y. 

If Anakin decapitated Dooku, Vader surely would've done the exact same to Reva.

HUGE miss on the writing and I'd bet bottom dollar that's the scene that has been talked about a lot on the internet that was re-written. I think originally he probably toyed with her a bit then brutally killed her. The brass at Disney said it was too dark and also had the bright idea of keeping her involved in the story instead. Should have killed her and let that be that.

And don't get me started with Leia or Lola.

[gmillerdrake]

Seeing Vader's full power using the force against a lightsaber was badass.   

That whole fight scene was pretty cool to see Vader just 'show off' basically.

[Adami]

I think the few scenes that took me out were, 1) When Reva sent Obi Wan and two storm troopers back into the place....why? What in gods name was she hoping for there? It just felt so random and unmotivated. 2) Reva hunting Vader as revenge for killing the Jedi but then she goes and slaughters countless Jedi on the way? Huh? 3) Vader revealing that he knew all of this ahead of time but still let her live and ruin the whole plan.

[lordxizor]

I have trouble accepting Reva would have been strong enough to emotionally hold on to her anger and revenge factor while being trained/broken as an Inquisitor

She wasn't. Vader knew and was toying with her basically.

So, Old-Man Kenobi who hasn't picked up a lightsaber in 10 years can hold off and deflect a battalion's worth of fire power?  When active Masters were taken down by much less in Order 66?

Obi Wan was standing against a known enemy. The Jedi masters were assassinated by their own side.

Why didn't Reva force pull the thermal detonator out of Talia's hands (vs shouting "run")
If Vader could force pull down that ship, why didn't he just hold on to the 2nd/actual escape transport?

Inconsistency in use of the Force is all of Star Wars is a bit of a problem, IMO. Surprise is a factor I suppose. I don't always react in the best way when I have a split second to make a choice.

How is being impaled by a lightsaber just a flesh wound?

It's self cauterizing. But yes, the inconsistency of damage done by a lightsaber is annoying.

If Anakin decapitated Dooku, Vader surely would've done the exact same to Reva.

Anakin decapitated Dooku at the request of Palpatine. So I don't know that those are direct comparisons. But I also find it stupid that she was left alive. I think it would have been much better if he unceremoniously killed her after toying with her for a bit like he did.

[jingle.boy]

If Vader could force pull down that ship, why didn't he just hold on to the 2nd/actual escape transport?

Don't have an issue with this either. The sheer amount of force 'strength' or whatever you call it to pull that off has been shown to be extremely draining in the movies/shows that SW's has released. I think he blew his load on the first ship and simple wasn't able to grab the second one.

Seeing Vader's full power using the force against a lightsaber was badass.   

That whole fight scene was pretty cool to see Vader just 'show off' basically.

IMO, these two things don't play well together (the events, not your reference to them).  I hear what you're saying about each individually, but if he was so drained after hauling down that empty freighter, he shouldn't have had the strength to then dismantle Reva so *effortlessly*.

Too many things that were simply too obviously far-fetched, and non-sensical.

It's like you've never watched Star Wars before.

Well, yeah... but the points I mentioned were just glaringly painful (imo).

[jingle.boy]

I think the few scenes that took me out were, 1) When Reva sent Obi Wan and two storm troopers back into the place....why? What in gods name was she hoping for there? It just felt so random and unmotivated. 2) Reva hunting Vader as revenge for killing the Jedi but then she goes and slaughters countless Jedi on the way? Huh? 3) Vader revealing that he knew all of this ahead of time but still let her live and ruin the whole plan.

I concur with these points as well.  I just stopped typing (remembering) about the bad parts.  Don't get me wrong, there was some good to this episode, but it was outweighed by the bad.

[gmillerdrake]

IMO, these two things don't play well together (the events, not your reference to them).  I hear what you're saying about each individually, but if he was so drained after hauling down that empty freighter, he shouldn't have had the strength to then dismantle Reva so *effortlessly*.

Maybe....but....two things could play into it. Could have been plenty of time for him to 'rest and recharge' simple because Reva isn't that strong of a Force user. Vader is Master Class level and I'd think pulling down a ship is tougher than defending a person swinging a sword....especially one that isn't all that experienced.

But I get the conundrum there....just don't see it as a big issue....I think the other complaints on the episode hold more validity.

[ariich]

1) When Reva sent Obi Wan and two storm troopers back into the place....why? What in gods name was she hoping for there? It just felt so random and unmotivated.

I understood that to be so she could say "I have Obi-Wan in there" to Vader, and therefore get him alone.

2) Reva hunting Vader as revenge for killing the Jedi but then she goes and slaughters countless Jedi on the way? Huh?

I'm undecided on this, and perhaps there isn't a simple answer. It also relates to Jingle's scepticism about Reva holding onto her anger without being fully turned to the Dark Side. My impression is that she basically hasn't cared either way about the jedi. The only thing that has mattered to her is revenge on Anakin/Vader. If killing jedi and hunting down Kenobi is the way to do that, that's what she does.

3) Vader revealing that he knew all of this ahead of time but still let her live and ruin the whole plan.

She wasn't ruining the plan, I see her more as part of it - Vader only found Kenobi in the first place because of her, which was presumably his intention all along. Although in the end her actions helped him escape, which Vader presumably didn't foresee. I've seen a couple of people point out that this links nicely to A New Hope, when Vader learns Kenobi is on the Death Star, and says "I'll deal with him myself".

[Adami]

I mean, I get that you CAN make up or imply or whatever any explanation for these problems, but the fact that we have to and the show doesn't really address any of them is a bit of a problem. If you have 0 problems, cool. I think the episode had some very cool and strong moments, but this show has been plagued by convenient writing that makes little sense other than to get from point A to point B in a way that is artificial and lacking in internal logic. Again, if you're not bothered by it, awesome, but it seems a number of us are.

[ariich]

I mean, I get that you CAN make up or imply or whatever any explanation for these problems, but the fact that we have to and the show doesn't really address any of them is a bit of a problem. If you have 0 problems, cool. I think the episode had some very cool and strong moments, but this show has been plagued by convenient writing that makes little sense other than to get from point A to point B in a way that is artificial and lacking in internal logic. Again, if you're not bothered by it, awesome, but it seems a number of us are.

This is a little leading - you're couching things as "problems" and saying it's cool if people aren't bothered by them, but I'm disagreeing that they are problems. Of those three, the first and third are pretty clear and logical as far as I'm concerned. The second I agree is less clear, more ambiguous, but I don't consider that makes it a problem.

[Adami]

That’s cool. But I see some of them as problems. You disagreeing doesn’t make them not problems. It just means they’re problems for me and others and not problems for you and others. So I apologize for my wording.

[gmillerdrake]

What I liked about the episode was the juxtaposition of the flashback with Kenobi training Padawan Anakin and the 'real time' events....and how Vader failed in that instance because he failed to absorb the lesson Kenobi was teaching Anakin. I also liked how they displayed Vader's sheer power and fierocity and showed that he's on a level that no one else around is.

The writing is what the writing is on this show. Certainly can nit pick it to death but at this point I'm just trying to take it all in as some more SW's stuff and try not to get to bent out of shape over some lazy writing. We've beat that to death....there's no excuse for it but I don't think it's going to change anytime soon.

[Adami]

What I liked about the episode was the juxtaposition of the flashback with Kenobi training Padawan Anakin and the 'real time' events....and how Vader failed in that instance because he failed to absorb the lesson Kenobi was teaching Anakin. I also liked how they displayed Vader's sheer power and fierocity and showed that he's on a level that no one else around is.

The writing is what the writing is on this show. Certainly can nit pick it to death but at this point I'm just trying to take it all in as some more SW's stuff and try not to get to bent out of shape over some lazy writing. We've beat that to death....there's no excuse for it but I don't think it's going to change anytime soon.

Yea. While I point out those issues I had, and they were issues for me, I am still enjoying the show and thought this was a good episode and the flashbacks were great.

[lonestar]

@chad...after seeing your criticisms, all I can say is micromanaging Star Wars never works out well. If you're gonna dig into ever flaw, you're going to have a bad time.

[lordxizor]

@chad...after seeing your criticisms, all I can say is micromanaging Star Wars never works out well. If you're gonna dig into ever flaw, you're going to have a bad time.

While I agree, I wish we didn't have to make statements like that about Star Wars. Not that any franchise is flawless, but I feel Star Wars is the most flawed major media franchise. There have been as many bad Star Wars movies/shows as there are good ones. Maybe even more bad ones than good ones. It doesn't seem like it should be terribly difficult to make a good Star Wars movie or show. The formula is not complicated. But clearly it's harder than we think. Heck, George Lucas really only made 2 or 3 really good Star Wars movies and 3 or 4 that were OK to bad.

[gmillerdrake]

@chad...after seeing your criticisms, all I can say is micromanaging Star Wars never works out well. If you're gonna dig into ever flaw, you're going to have a bad time.

While I agree, I wish we didn't have to make statements like that about Star Wars. Not that any franchise is flawless, but I feel Star Wars is the most flawed major media franchise. There have been as many bad Star Wars movies/shows as there are good ones. Maybe even more bad ones than good ones. It doesn't seem like it should be terribly difficult to make a good Star Wars movie or show. The formula is not complicated. But clearly it's harder than we think. Heck, George Lucas really only made 2 or 3 really good Star Wars movies and 3 or 4 that were OK to bad.

For me it's something as simple as say......the chase scene with Leia for instance. Cast a 10-12 year old girl that is quick and has parkour type moves to where you can film that scene and it feels realistic. That little girl was waddling through the woods like a penguin searching for an opening in an ice shelf. Just looked horrible. There are plenty of talented young actresses to choose from that could have captured the look but also pulled off the physical stuff.

It's those instances that could be addressed and tightened up.....then...apply some common sense crap to the writing.....like the whole Vader/Kenobi first fight scene and the fire....just poorly scripted and written.

[Zook]

It's almost like this show isn't written very well.

[ariich]

@chad...after seeing your criticisms, all I can say is micromanaging Star Wars never works out well. If you're gonna dig into ever flaw, you're going to have a bad time.

While I agree, I wish we didn't have to make statements like that about Star Wars. Not that any franchise is flawless, but I feel Star Wars is the most flawed major media franchise. There have been as many bad Star Wars movies/shows as there are good ones. Maybe even more bad ones than good ones. It doesn't seem like it should be terribly difficult to make a good Star Wars movie or show. The formula is not complicated. But clearly it's harder than we think. Heck, George Lucas really only made 2 or 3 really good Star Wars movies and 3 or 4 that were OK to bad.

For me it's something as simple as say......the chase scene with Leia for instance. Cast a 10-12 year old girl that is quick and has parkour type moves to where you can film that scene and it feels realistic. That little girl was waddling through the woods like a penguin searching for an opening in an ice shelf. Just looked horrible. There are plenty of talented young actresses to choose from that could have captured the look but also pulled off the physical stuff.

Still not as bad as the Boba Fett market chase scene.

@chad...after seeing your criticisms, all I can say is micromanaging Star Wars never works out well. If you're gonna dig into ever flaw, you're going to have a bad time.

While I agree, I wish we didn't have to make statements like that about Star Wars. Not that any franchise is flawless, but I feel Star Wars is the most flawed major media franchise. There have been as many bad Star Wars movies/shows as there are good ones. Maybe even more bad ones than good ones. It doesn't seem like it should be terribly difficult to make a good Star Wars movie or show. The formula is not complicated. But clearly it's harder than we think. Heck, George Lucas really only made 2 or 3 really good Star Wars movies and 3 or 4 that were OK to bad.

I sort of agree, but I don't think that the sorts of flaws we're talking about make a massive difference to the overall quality. For me, Star Wars has always been flawed, but always been enjoyable. It's never hung together all that well if you think about it too much, but has great ideas and story arcs. Those even out to something that, overall, is good and enjoyable.

[bosk1]

What I liked about the episode was the juxtaposition of the flashback with Kenobi training Padawan Anakin and the 'real time' events....and how Vader failed in that instance because he failed to absorb the lesson Kenobi was teaching Anakin. I also liked how they displayed Vader's sheer power and fierocity and showed that he's on a level that no one else around is.

The writing is what the writing is on this show. Certainly can nit pick it to death but at this point I'm just trying to take it all in as some more SW's stuff and try not to get to bent out of shape over some lazy writing. We've beat that to death....there's no excuse for it but I don't think it's going to change anytime soon.

Yea. While I point out those issues I had, and they were issues for me, I am still enjoying the show and thought this was a good episode and the flashbacks were great.

This is pretty much where I am.  I do think it is the best episode so far.  But there were still some problems where the writing wasn't particularly good.  And it's frustrating to me because, as is the case with all things Star Wars from the prequels onward, there's a really good story in there, and some really good ideas, and it is all just executed poorly at times. 

On the other hand, as is often pointed out in these discussions, it still has that feel of the Saturday afternoon serial that Lucas was going for 4 1/2 decades ago.  And in that vein, this is a franchise that keeps on delivering content that, if you let it, is fun, and I can appreciate that.  It's like ball park nachos.  Back in the '70s, your basic nachos with just chips, cheese sludge, and jalapenos were kind of a new thing.  When you could get them, they were great, and you kind of ignored the fact that they were bad for you and weren't really "good food" at all, but had a novel yumminess factor that, in the moment, was pretty good.  As time passed, we learned how to take nachos up several notches and even make them gourmet.  And the basic nachos became even worse because they are now often prepackaged chips with a vaccuum sealed cup of jalapeno flavored (or plain) cheese sauce that is inferior to the original (not to mention getting the cheese/chip ratio totally wrong).  I can occasionally have that as a snack at the ballpark.  I know it's empty calories and that it is objectively not good food.  But it's fun and familiar, and I can enjoy it in the moment if I let myself not get tied in knots over the issues I have with it.

One last issue regarding Reva:  Maybe I am missing the point, but I saw her character motivation a bit differently that some of what was posted above.  I'm not sure her long game was getting revenge on Vader, and that she tamped that down and hid it until she could take advantage.  How I took her character is that she equally hated Vader and the jedi for what happened to her as a child, but that she basically saw revenge against Vade as out of reach, so she embraced the dark side and poured all her hate into revenge against the jedi, but that Obi Wan's conversation with her made her realize that she could perhaps get to Vader after all, so she pivoted and took that perceived opportunity.  Am I off on that?  Maybe I just wasn't paying close attention.

[lordxizor]

@chad...after seeing your criticisms, all I can say is micromanaging Star Wars never works out well. If you're gonna dig into ever flaw, you're going to have a bad time.

While I agree, I wish we didn't have to make statements like that about Star Wars. Not that any franchise is flawless, but I feel Star Wars is the most flawed major media franchise. There have been as many bad Star Wars movies/shows as there are good ones. Maybe even more bad ones than good ones. It doesn't seem like it should be terribly difficult to make a good Star Wars movie or show. The formula is not complicated. But clearly it's harder than we think. Heck, George Lucas really only made 2 or 3 really good Star Wars movies and 3 or 4 that were OK to bad.

I sort of agree, but I don't think that the sorts of flaws we're talking about make a massive difference to the overall quality. For me, Star Wars has always been flawed, but always been enjoyable. It's never hung together all that well if you think about it too much, but has great ideas and story arcs. Those even out to something that, overall, is good and enjoyable.

I agree that most of the flaws don't take away from the enjoyment. I absolutely love Star Wars. The new, the old, the good, the "bad". I've loved all of it. I just think it could be a lot better with what seems to be very little additional effort. Just cleaning up some poor dialog, editing, etc that should have been obvious to the filmmakers when they watched a rough cut of the film.

[lonestar]

Maybe I should clarify... Star wars is stupid, silly, flawed and absolutely wonderful. There are honestly very few Star Wars products I don't enjoy, and I think it's because of all that. I can completely suspend reality and the need for things to be 'right' and just have a little escapist fun.


I love it because I don't have to care about accuracy.

[gmillerdrake]

One last issue regarding Reva:  Maybe I am missing the point, but I saw her character motivation a bit differently that some of what was posted above.  I'm not sure her long game was getting revenge on Vader, and that she tamped that down and hid it until she could take advantage.  How I took her character is that she equally hated Vader and the jedi for what happened to her as a child, but that she basically saw revenge against Vade as out of reach, so she embraced the dark side and poured all her hate into revenge against the jedi, but that Obi Wan's conversation with her made her realize that she could perhaps get to Vader after all, so she pivoted and took that perceived opportunity.  Am I off on that?  Maybe I just wasn't paying close attention.

Could totally see that being her angle for sure....seems like it fits what we've seen perfectly. It wasn't until Kenobi manipulated her a bit that she visibly started to consider taking on Vader.

[Podaar]

What I liked about the episode: The image of Obi-Wan swimming up into the hole at the bottom of the fortress while in the foreground shadows an unspeakably icky, tentacled-creature crawls up the superstructure. The whole tableau reminded me of a Frank Frazetta painting and should be the cover for a badly written Star Wars novel. 

[Dream Team]

So they finally realize it was getting too dark, and THAT bitch is the person they decide to go easy on??  I knew it was too good to be true when Vader was wrecking her.

[jingle.boy]

@chad...after seeing your criticisms, all I can say is micromanaging Star Wars never works out well. If you're gonna dig into ever flaw, you're going to have a bad time.

Completely fair point. But I didn’t even think I was “digging” at all.  I felt like the show slapped me across the carafe with it. A couple/few flaws … I can live with. This many though?? And don’t also get me started with how poor the de-aging of Hayden was!  It looked as much like Matt Damon as it did Hayden.

Hey… everything about Star Wars requires a suspension of disbelief. But (and this has come up before) ya can’t also be taken OUT of the world I’m now expected to believe.

All this said, it’s still not the worst thing Star Wars has ever done.

[Zook]

Did they even apply de-aging? It didn't look like it.

[Logain Ablar]

Did they even apply de-aging? It didn't look like it.

I don't think so. Some guy on youtube even had a go at it, and it looks better than what we got: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TxIHXjCC91M

My overall feeling with this show is just frustration. There's a lot of good elements and certainly the potential is there, but they just didn't pull it off. Too many silly things that distracted me and totally disabled my suspension of disbelief.

[jingle.boy]

Did they even apply de-aging? It didn't look like it.

I don't think so. Some guy on youtube even had a go at it, and it looks better than what we got: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TxIHXjCC91M

My overall feeling with this show is just frustration. There's a lot of good elements and certainly the potential is there, but they just didn't pull it off. Too many silly things that distracted me and totally disabled my suspension of disbelief.

Exactly.  And that YT clip is 10x better than what the show did.  I mean, Ewan looked like 2002-era Ewan, but Hayden looked like he completely skipped the makeup chair, let alone had any AI applied to him.  I honestly thought for the first few seconds of it, his look wasn't much better than video game quality.

[ariich]

Did they even apply de-aging? It didn't look like it.

I don't think so. Some guy on youtube even had a go at it, and it looks better than what we got: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TxIHXjCC91M

My overall feeling with this show is just frustration. There's a lot of good elements and certainly the potential is there, but they just didn't pull it off. Too many silly things that distracted me and totally disabled my suspension of disbelief.

Exactly.  And that YT clip is 10x better than what the show did.  I mean, Ewan looked like 2002-era Ewan, but Hayden looked like he completely skipped the makeup chair, let alone had any AI applied to him.  I honestly thought for the first few seconds of it, his look wasn't much better than video game quality.

Eh, I don't find that clip any better. It's not de-aged, it's just a deepfake using photos of younger Hayden/Anakin.

If anything, I slightly prefer what we got as, minor de-ageing aside, it's present-day Hayden's acting and quite frankly he's much better now than he was back then.

[soupytwist]

What we got looked like claymation 

[Adami]

I thought it was fine. He didn't look deaged, but it didn't bug me.

[hefdaddy42]

You guys are looking at this all wrong.  The whole show is obviously a dream sequence or somehow otherwise not canon/set in the old pre-Disney Star Wars legacy extended universe.

Once I realized that, I just accept all the bullshit as "doesn't matter" and it is once again fun to watch.  And the duel where Vader kills Obi-Wan in the original film is once more their first meeting since Obi-Wan left Anakin for dead, AS IT SHOULD BE.