Star Wars Discussion Thread v. Rise of Skywalker / Mandalorian (merged)

[gmillerdrake]

Am I just missing it? When in this series is Third Sister referred to as “Reva?”

Don't recall the scene or when....but that is her name.

[lordxizor]

No excuse for this to have not been knocked out of the park. Too much money and too much talent out there for just an average…..Ho hum effort like this.

I get what you're saying here, but I think it's more difficult to make a fantastic movie or show than we think. How many huge blockbusters that on paper sounded awesome turned out to be duds? I get that at some point you need to just stop and put out what you have, but there are times I think "You looked at these shots and that editing and decided that was the best choice to release?"

I totally get that. But take the scene where Vader was dragging Kenobi through the fire....fire gets put out....the little rescue happens and the fire is started again.....then a slow walking dock droid grabs Kenobi and walks him a few mounds over and they get off the planet. The Imperial presence on the planet alone wouldn't have allowed them to escape.....shoot....Reva was already at the hangar capturing Leia. The company of Storm Troopers that were there with Vader could have easily circumvented that small isolated fire and neutralized that droid and chic.....shoot....Vader could have just simply force grabbed Kenobi again and broke him in half.

For me...lazy writing like that has no business being produced by a multi Billion dollar company with the resources they have at hand. I understand it's tough to write blockbuster style shows but lazy writing that makes no sense.....like that scene and a dozen other scenes in this series thus far that make no sense.....should not happen.

As I mentioned before, I think my expectations probably set me up for disappointment because I expect a show like this that has the lore, the available characters and content....to be executed by a global entertainment giant flawlessly. In large part Disney has dropped the ball as far as storytelling goes with Star Wars big time. Mandalorian is great....but overwhelmingly they've mismanaged a LOT of the storytelling.

Completely agree with what you're saying. I have a hard time thinking that they watched the final cut of that scene and thought "it's perfect!" I have to imagine they thought "why did Vader seemingly let him get away so easily?" and they came up with a mental justification for why it makes sense. I learned years ago to shut off my brain and just enjoy the entertainment. There are moments that are so bad (like Leia's chase through the forest) that I notice, but for the most part I just let it slide and enjoy it for what it is. Star Wars and the MCU in particular I am able to overlook flaws and just have fun watching.

I think one of the problems with shows versus movies is that shows give us time to digest in small chunks and nitpick things before the full story is done in a way that it's harder to do with movies. Take The Last Jedi for instance. There were a ton of bad plot things: Leia floating through space, the casino planet, the slow chase through space. But I thought the ending was great, so I left the theater thinking that I really enjoyed the movie. All Star Wars movies have a few dumb moments to nitpick, but normally we're whisked off to the next scene without being able to think about it too much.

One of the more puzzling aspects of Star Wars is when force wielders choose and don’t choose to just “use the force.”

I think this is one of the more inconsistent things about Star Wars as well. The Force is used when it's needed to forward the plot rather than when it makes logical sense. I like to think that Force wielders are like us in that our brains take time to process what is happening and react. They may not react fast enough to be able to use the Force to help them. Jedi are easily able to block blaster bolts when they are expecting them to come. But when the clone troopers turn on them and they are not expecting to be shot at, they're taken down easily.

[Adami]

It was a very meh episode.

I feel like the amount of times they stopped caring about things making sense is getting a bit too much.

The flooding the hallway scene was just....too much of a leap in logic and physics. I just couldn't buy into it.

Also the storm troopers not seeing Obi-Wan in the hallway when they were IN THE SAME DAMN SHOT just made me face palm.

It just feels so lazy.

[gmillerdrake]

I learned years ago to shut off my brain and just enjoy the entertainment. There are moments that are so bad (like Leia's chase through the forest) that I notice, but for the most part I just let it slide and enjoy it for what it is. Star Wars and the MCU in particular I am able to overlook flaws and just have fun watching.

Yeah....totally understand that and as I stated a page or so ago.....despite my seemingly only nit picking this show I'm generally enjoying it....it's SW content and is adding to the story.

[cramx3]

The flooding the hallway scene was just....too much of a leap in logic and physics. I just couldn't buy into it.

This pissed me off so much.  Obi wasn't even wet! WTF?

And them walking out with Leah under his long jacket like no one would see that?  How stupid did that look?

Otherwise, I actually didn't hate the episode.  But attention to detail seems to be lacking.

Also, add me to the group of people who can't stand young Leah. 

[lordxizor]

Otherwise, I actually didn't hate the episode.  But attention to detail seems to be lacking.

That scene sort of makes sense given that Reva had a tracker on Leia and wanted them to escape. So maybe some people knew to ignore them. It's a stretch though and that scene could definitely have been done better.

[HOF]

The flooding the hallway scene was just....too much of a leap in logic and physics. I just couldn't buy into it.

This pissed me off so much.  Obi wasn't even wet! WTF?

And them walking out with Leah under his long jacket like no one would see that?  How stupid did that look?

Otherwise, I actually didn't hate the episode.  But attention to detail seems to be lacking.

Also, add me to the group of people who can't stand young Leah.

Another funny thing was Obi-wan swimming into the station, robes and all, but stepping out of the portal dry as a bone.

[Orbert]

Special Jedi fabric.  Instantly dries upon contact with air.  He then dried off his face and hair with his sleeve.

[bosk1]

They seemed to forget that Obi wan was burned and could "barely walk". He frequently used his right arm and showed no signs of injury or pain.

He used the force!



-Marc.

"That's not how the force works!" 

[TheOutlawXanadu]

I learned years ago to shut off my brain and just enjoy the entertainment. There are moments that are so bad (like Leia's chase through the forest) that I notice, but for the most part I just let it slide and enjoy it for what it is. Star Wars and the MCU in particular I am able to overlook flaws and just have fun watching.

Yeah....totally understand that and as I stated a page or so ago.....despite my seemingly only nit picking this show I'm generally enjoying it....it's SW content and is adding to the story.

As someone who has followed Star Wars his whole life (and loved it at times), I feel very sad to say this, but I feel as though some people are still giving the franchise way more respect than it deserves. You basically have to shut your brain off to enjoy it, which stinks because I think that some of the films are genuinely excellent and certain moments are genuinely powerful, but for the most part it's been a giant mess since the prequels and arguably even earlier with some of the Episode VI shenanigans. To quote one of my all-time favorite YouTube videos about Episode IX: "It's terrible... But it's amazing"

[Orbert]

I think that's true to a large extent.  Star Wars was created as good old-fashioned fun adventure where you didn't worry a whole lot about the logic involved as long as things kept moving and were fun.  As movie audiences have matured, we've come to expect more than that.  If you expect more, you're basically setting yourself up for disappointment.  I get it; it's hard to just ignore glaring plot holes and characters being downright stupid or acting contrary to what's been established.  But what are you gonna do, go on the Internet and complain about it?

[Zantera]

I am enjoying Obi-Wan mostly due to Ewan McGregor but I was kinda thinking earlier that even though the prequels are terrible and remembered mostly for the wrong reasons, there's an element to them with the creativity (possibly the Lucas element) that I find lacking in pretty much all of the Disney Star Wars so far. SW just feels like another MCU now - same sort of jokes, same sort of story telling and same type of characters. I'm not gonna pretend that the prequels were misunderstood masterpieces but there's some really weird and goofy things in them that kinda make them unique. Despite fairly low screen time I actually remember characters like Nute Gunray or Dexter Jettster. 

[HOF]

I think that's true to a large extent.  Star Wars was created as good old-fashioned fun adventure where you didn't worry a whole lot about the logic involved as long as things kept moving and were fun.  As movie audiences have matured, we've come to expect more than that.  If you expect more, you're basically setting yourself up for disappointment.  I get it; it's hard to just ignore glaring plot holes and characters being downright stupid or acting contrary to what's been established.  But what are you gonna do, go on the Internet and complain about it?

The problem is while that may be what Star Wars was originally conceived as, there is this whole broader universe of Star Wars movies, literature, and fandom, including the TV serieses, which seem to really want to be taken seriously. It’s one reason it’s hard to maintain that suspended disbelief. This series in particular vacillates between being ultra dark and gritty and being ultra cornball. 

[Stadler]

I think that's true to a large extent.  Star Wars was created as good old-fashioned fun adventure where you didn't worry a whole lot about the logic involved as long as things kept moving and were fun.  As movie audiences have matured, we've come to expect more than that.  If you expect more, you're basically setting yourself up for disappointment.  I get it; it's hard to just ignore glaring plot holes and characters being downright stupid or acting contrary to what's been established.  But what are you gonna do, go on the Internet and complain about it?

The problem is while that may be what Star Wars was originally conceived as, there is this whole broader universe of Star Wars movies, literature, and fandom, including the TV serieses, which seem to really want to be taken seriously. It’s one reason it’s hard to maintain that suspended disbelief. This series in particular vacillates between being ultra dark and gritty and being ultra cornball.

Yeah, and so for people like me  who want something in between, and really vibed with the original George Lucas desire to "recreate" the Saturday afternoon serials, it's sometimes a bummer. 

I LOVE the original three.  I liked the prequels, not because they were great, but because they had a sort of charm to them; I had to really make an effort to look past the Jake Lloyd's and the Jar Jar Binks', but it was still a kind of fun.  Other than when Harrison Ford was on the screen, I didn't get very much of that "fun" feeling from the last three, to be honest.

[gmillerdrake]

As movie audiences have matured, we've come to expect more than that.

This is my issue. I'll admit it. I have a difficult time with shows/writing that just do the bare minimum to get by. I get your point of the OT wasn't a Shakespearean masterpiece by any means and that it was just a fun sci fi deal....but movies and TV have evolved so much and there is so much great content and writing out there that....when I see a company as large as Disney basically mailing it in and simply cashing in on the fact they know that the SW fans are going to swarm to anything SW.....it bugs me. Lazy writing is inexcusable IMO when it comes to shows like this.

I understand the roots of the SW universe were fun and loose and not to be taken seriously....but if they want to maintain this legacy they have to step it up. IMO they're dropping the ball with this SW content.

[Stadler]

As movie audiences have matured, we've come to expect more than that.

This is my issue. I'll admit it. I have a difficult time with shows/writing that just do the bare minimum to get by. I get your point of the OT wasn't a Shakespearean masterpiece by any means and that it was just a fun sci fi deal....but movies and TV have evolved so much and there is so much great content and writing out there that....when I see a company as large as Disney basically mailing it in and simply cashing in on the fact they know that the SW fans are going to swarm to anything SW.....it bugs me. Lazy writing is inexcusable IMO when it comes to shows like this.

I understand the roots of the SW universe were fun and loose and not to be taken seriously....but if they want to maintain this legacy they have to step it up. IMO they're dropping the ball with this SW content.

I'm not trying to give you an out here, but I'm not interested in the bare minimum to get by either.  I just don't need the plotlines to be a Robert Ludlum novel.  George, IMO, never took the easy way out (unless it was something beyond his technical ken).  I think he TRIED to make a comprehensive universe and while he followed the same Joseph Campbell tropes as anyone else, there was a charm there.  As corporate as Star Wars got, it never FELT corporate to me until Disney came along.

[soupytwist]

I think that's true to a large extent.  Star Wars was created as good old-fashioned fun adventure where you didn't worry a whole lot about the logic involved as long as things kept moving and were fun.  As movie audiences have matured, we've come to expect more than that.  If you expect more, you're basically setting yourself up for disappointment.  I get it; it's hard to just ignore glaring plot holes and characters being downright stupid or acting contrary to what's been established.  But what are you gonna do, go on the Internet and complain about it?

The problem is while that may be what Star Wars was originally conceived as, there is this whole broader universe of Star Wars movies, literature, and fandom, including the TV serieses, which seem to really want to be taken seriously. It’s one reason it’s hard to maintain that suspended disbelief. This series in particular vacillates between being ultra dark and gritty and being ultra cornball.

Yeah, and so for people like me  who want something in between, and really vibed with the original George Lucas desire to "recreate" the Saturday afternoon serials, it's sometimes a bummer. 

I LOVE the original three.  I liked the prequels, not because they were great, but because they had a sort of charm to them; I had to really make an effort to look past the Jake Lloyd's and the Jar Jar Binks', but it was still a kind of fun.  Other than when Harrison Ford was on the screen, I didn't get very much of that "fun" feeling from the last three, to be honest.

If there is one thing the prequels weren't it's fun.  Those movies are tedious to the extreme - wooden acting, stiff dialog and an over reliance on really bad green screen effects.  Any attempts at fun is just terrible childish shite.   Clones in particular is shocking in how boring it is.  As disjointed as the new trilogy from a storytelling point of view is  I had much more fun with them.

[The Realm]

Not really sure about this show. Felt like it had potential but hasn't really delivered. I'm ok with young Leia, even though I feel she was included to cash in on the 'baby yoda' vibe of Mando. Including young Leia opens up a whole world on continuity errors though. I mean Leia's hidden message inside R2 in the original movie now kind of doesn't work (apart from anything else)..ie surely she could mention Obi Wan saving her as a child?

Also, for anyone who has seen Empire, those speeders that they were rescued in at the end are tiny 2 person fighters. How did 4 people (including the pilot) fit in there?

[kaos2900]

I view these shows (both SW and Marvel) more like books with each episode being a chapter of the story. It's hard to form a solid opinion of the entire story/series until everything has been released. I think the show has been fun and entertaining but I'm withholding my final opinion until the last two episodes drop. Also, I don't have a negative opinion on the actress playing Leah other than the fact that she doesn't look/act like a 10 year old kid. My daughter is nine 1/2 and seems way older than this girl.

[bosk1]

I think it's two separate factors, actually.  Yeah, audiences "maturing" and expecting more is part of it.  But you also have quality that has dipped, which makes the gap even wider. 

This show, so far, has its good and its bad.  As far a look and feel, Star Wars has never looked better.  The look and feel of the base where most of this story took place were INCREDIBLE!  It was a new place.  There were lots of things we have never seen.  And yet, it felt so comfortably Star Wars.  And it looked really slick.  And thank goodness for that because it is almost, ALMOST enough to distract me enough from the bad storytelling enough to allow me to enjoy the show as a whole.  And that's kind of where I am so far.  I am "almost enjoying it," and it's a shame that I have to qualify it with "almost" because that's really only there because of issues that distract from what could be a really cool show.

Here's one of my biggest issues:  I haven't seen anyone else really discuss this, so maybe it's only me.  Or maybe I just missed others talking about it.  But the idea of the Inquisitors in general is a huge problem.  In the abstract, it's a really cool idea.  But the problem is, it creates problems with a blunder Lucas made in the story of A New Hope.  The problem is that you now have a formal program to scour the galaxy to hunt down and kill every last jedi that survived Order 66 at all costs, and you have Obi Wan Kenobi being the most hated of ALL the jedi.  Despite being conveniently inept whenever the plot calls for it, they have a good spy and intelligence network and are decent at actually rooting out the jedi.  But with that as the relatively recently established backdrop for what is going on throughout the empire during the period between episodes III and IV, you have the most notorious jedi of all hiding out on Vader's home world under the name "Ben Kenobi."  And the spy and intelligence network somehow never picks this up.  Ever.    And Lucas made the problem worse in the prequels by making Vader from Tatooine in the first place.  He obviously tried to deal with that by trying to give us reasons why Vader would never return there.  But he didn't hit that hard enough to make it believable.  It would have been better if, as portrayed in ep. IV, Tatooine was such a backwater place that it wasn't even on the empire's radar.  But having so many significant things happen there to put it squarely on the empire's radar really makes then never discovering Kenobi such a huge stretch. 

This show has some really good ideas.  The inquisitors in general are a really cool idea.  And the conflict between the jedi code and Obi Wan having to maintain his cover and be anonymous should be pretty compelling.  But instead, to me, it just highlights the problem I mention above.  Hence just being only able to "almost" enjoy it.

[gmillerdrake]

Here's one of my biggest issues:  I haven't seen anyone else really discuss this, so maybe it's only me.  Or maybe I just missed others talking about it.  But the idea of the Inquisitors in general is a huge problem.  In the abstract, it's a really cool idea.  But the problem is, it creates problems with a blunder Lucas made in the story of A New Hope.  The problem is that you now have a formal program to scour the galaxy to hunt down and kill every last jedi that survived Order 66 at all costs, and you have Obi Wan Kenobi being the most hated of ALL the jedi.  Despite being conveniently inept whenever the plot calls for it, they have a good spy and intelligence network and are decent at actually rooting out the jedi.  But with that as the relatively recently established backdrop for what is going on throughout the empire during the period between episodes III and IV, you have the most notorious jedi of all hiding out on Vader's home world under the name "Ben Kenobi."  And the spy and intelligence network somehow never picks this up.  Ever.    And Lucas made the problem worse in the prequels by making Vader from Tatooine in the first place.  He obviously tried to deal with that by trying to give us reasons why Vader would never return there.  But he didn't hit that hard enough to make it believable.  It would have been better if, as portrayed in ep. IV, Tatooine was such a backwater place that it wasn't even on the empire's radar.  But having so many significant things happen there to put it squarely on the empire's radar really makes then never discovering Kenobi such a huge stretch. 

This show has some really good ideas.  The inquisitors in general are a really cool idea.  And the conflict between the jedi code and Obi Wan having to maintain his cover and be anonymous should be pretty compelling.  But instead, to me, it just highlights the problem I mention above.  Hence just being only able to "almost" enjoy it.

Yeah....I think this is where we get into the realm of how hamstrung the subsequent SW storytelling was by the OT given that the world that we're seeing open up now wasn't planned out and 'known' when the OT was written/produced etc etc.

I think "they" have done a good job at shoehorning these cool ideas in.....like the Inquisitors (which I dig a lot!)......but, the inevitability of some of these larger storylines, characters, worlds etc etc not lining up or correlating and...as you mention....outright flying in the face of what we're being told now is always going to be hard to overlook. Ben Kenobi not being discovered on Tatooine by the Inquisitors is kind of being addressed right now....but even then....what we were told about Vadar and Kenobi in the OT now seems askew because of the story being told at the moment.

And from what I've read online....there's more than likely going to be a S2 of Kenobi strictly based on the fact of the large viewership numbers it's getting. Probably isn't needed at all for the SW story but Disney sees the $$$ so we're going to get it.

[bosk1]

I actually LOVE the dynamic between Kenobi and Vader, and I love the extent that recent SW live action properties (starting with Rogue I) are portraying Vader is a true villain before his redemption and truly powerful.  It's all pretty cool.  But, yeah, the big problem is the conflict that that all creates and the feeling of "based on what we were told, this really shouldn't be happening). 

[gmillerdrake]

I actually LOVE the dynamic between Kenobi and Vader, and I love the extent that recent SW live action properties (starting with Rogue I) are portraying Vader is a true villain before his redemption and truly powerful.  It's all pretty cool.  But, yeah, the big problem is the conflict that that all creates and the feeling of "based on what we were told, this really shouldn't be happening).

Agreed.....the 'new' dynamic they're creating falls in line WAY better with the characters they were in the Clone Wars animated series. I was speaking more to the original dynamic that we were told in the OT. It was implied that Vader hadn't seen Kenobi in ages......since well, Kenobi defeated him. Now we're getting more to the story that I guess could still fall in line with that but to me it doesn't quite fit.

[gmillerdrake]

By the way....I'm sure you guys have seen this but for those that haven't or who want to see it again....here you go. I watch this thing a few times a month. Really love how well it was done and truly think it adds to the story....



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=to2SMng4u1k

[HOF]

I'm also not sure why the inquisitors don't seem to know Leia is force sensitive (or if they do, they don't seem to care). I think it was stated somewhere in this series that they round up kids who are.

[gmillerdrake]

I'm also not sure why the inquisitors don't seem to know Leia is force sensitive (or if they do, they don't seem to care). I think it was stated somewhere in this series that they round up kids who are.

One would have thought Reva would have figured that out when she tried to read Leia's mind last episode and was thwarted. Which, gave way to a pretty funny line when Leia said "What is this a staring contest?"     

[Adami]

I'm curious how an individual who has been kidnapped by the Empire....twice....shown to be against the Empire and engaged in treason with a known fugitive Jedi can become a trusted member of the imperial senate without question.

[HOF]

I'm also not sure why the inquisitors don't seem to know Leia is force sensitive (or if they do, they don't seem to care). I think it was stated somewhere in this series that they round up kids who are.

One would have thought Reva would have figured that out when she tried to read Leia's mind last episode and was thwarted. Which, gave way to a pretty funny line when Leia said "What is this a staring contest?" 

I'm also not sure why Reva thought Leia would have specific intel on the people who smuggled her off the planet. It's not like a 10 year old kid is an operative. They just rescued her.

[Adami]

Maybe if Reva didn't kill everyone where she found Leia?

[HOF]

Maybe if Reva didn't kill everyone where she found Leia?

LOL, yeah, she is awfully bungling. Such a hot head.

Also, I feel like Vader is kind of continually duped by her. She's done nothing right, but he keeps giving her second chances. Putting the tracker in the droid makes no sense. They are going to take her back home to her family. Why would they take her to their secret base or whatever?

[gmillerdrake]

Also, I feel like Vader is kind of continually duped by her. She's done nothing right, but he keeps giving her second chances.

I've read that one of the changes to the season was keeping her alive. That originally after she fails Vader (maybe not in that scene but by end of season).....he violently killed her....

[T-ski]

I think it's two separate factors, actually.  Yeah, audiences "maturing" and expecting more is part of it.  But you also have quality that has dipped, which makes the gap even wider. 

This show, so far, has its good and its bad.  As far a look and feel, Star Wars has never looked better.  The look and feel of the base where most of this story took place were INCREDIBLE!  It was a new place.  There were lots of things we have never seen.  And yet, it felt so comfortably Star Wars.  And it looked really slick.  And thank goodness for that because it is almost, ALMOST enough to distract me enough from the bad storytelling enough to allow me to enjoy the show as a whole.  And that's kind of where I am so far.  I am "almost enjoying it," and it's a shame that I have to qualify it with "almost" because that's really only there because of issues that distract from what could be a really cool show.

Here's one of my biggest issues:  I haven't seen anyone else really discuss this, so maybe it's only me.  Or maybe I just missed others talking about it.  But the idea of the Inquisitors in general is a huge problem.  In the abstract, it's a really cool idea.  But the problem is, it creates problems with a blunder Lucas made in the story of A New Hope.  The problem is that you now have a formal program to scour the galaxy to hunt down and kill every last jedi that survived Order 66 at all costs, and you have Obi Wan Kenobi being the most hated of ALL the jedi.  Despite being conveniently inept whenever the plot calls for it, they have a good spy and intelligence network and are decent at actually rooting out the jedi.  But with that as the relatively recently established backdrop for what is going on throughout the empire during the period between episodes III and IV, you have the most notorious jedi of all hiding out on Vader's home world under the name "Ben Kenobi."  And the spy and intelligence network somehow never picks this up.  Ever.    And Lucas made the problem worse in the prequels by making Vader from Tatooine in the first place.  He obviously tried to deal with that by trying to give us reasons why Vader would never return there.  But he didn't hit that hard enough to make it believable.  It would have been better if, as portrayed in ep. IV, Tatooine was such a backwater place that it wasn't even on the empire's radar.  But having so many significant things happen there to put it squarely on the empire's radar really makes then never discovering Kenobi such a huge stretch. 

This show has some really good ideas.  The inquisitors in general are a really cool idea.  And the conflict between the jedi code and Obi Wan having to maintain his cover and be anonymous should be pretty compelling.  But instead, to me, it just highlights the problem I mention above.  Hence just being only able to "almost" enjoy it.

Maybe Kenobi is the Smith of the Star Wars galaxy.

[HOF]

My memory of the prequels is very sketchy (I've never seen Attack of the Clones either), but does Anakin know he has a brother? I don't remember him having one in The Phantom Menace. It always seemed a little odd that they hid Luke with Anakin's own family. But I guess if Vader didn't know he had kids to begin with then it doesn't matter so much.

[ErHaO]

I really, reaally wish that Star Wars just made new stories. New characters, new planets, new timeline or a different point in the timeline. Disney tried and most of it was bad. And I feel trying to fit into this mess of a canon holds everyone back. I don't want another goddamn prequel (to a prequel), midquel or fanservice series. No sand planet for at least a decade too. 

[Adami]

I really, reaally wish that Star Wars just made new stories. New characters, new planets, new timeline or a different point in the timeline. Disney tried and most of it was bad. And I feel trying to fit into this mess of a canon holds everyone back. I don't want another goddamn prequel (to a prequel), midquel or fanservice series. No sand planet for at least a decade too.

I thought Mando would be that and it was for most of it. Familiar time period, but new character, new settings (mostly), new stories, and then they kind of went back to the OT as much as they could.