Star Wars Discussion Thread v. Rise of Skywalker / Mandalorian (merged)

[lonestar]

Totally agree. And it's not hard to do a bit of research and see what the CW fans are clamoring about, to learn a bit more about these characters.

[The Walrus]

As someone with absolutely NO interest in Rebels/TCW/etc. I think they're doing awesome as it is

[lonestar]

The meme game has been f'in gold tho...

[gmillerdrake]

Totally agree. And it's not hard to do a bit of research and see what the CW fans are clamoring about, to learn a bit more about these characters.

There are so many quick YouTube ‘catch up’ clips out there that one could spend an hour or so going through them and be caught up and ‘in the know’

You may not have the deeper attachment that those of us who watched it all have but you’d have the cool backstory



And Orbert......great post.

[gmillerdrake]

Grogu 'reaches out' to surviving Jedi from the ancient temple........Luke answers the call. Mando gets Grogu to Luke......Luke enrolls Grogu in his newly formed Jedi School.....Ben Kenobi succumbs to Snoke and goes all Kylo Ren and kills all the kids at Luke's school.....including Grogu.

Thanks Kylo....you've killed the very thing that has saved Star Wars

[lonestar]

Wtf no, just stop.

[gmillerdrake]

Wtf no, just stop.

     I mean....I highly doubt they'd throw Luke into the mix here but it's plausible that Grogu ends up at Luke's school.....therefore.....would have been killed by Kylo Ren.


But I'd have to lean more towards the Ezra Bridger angle given all we've seen from the series so far. It seems to be tying in to a few of the animated series storylines.

[The Walrus]

Friend of mine suggested they get the Winter Soldier to play Luke if he were to ever show up. I can dig that

[Orbert]

This does bring up something that kinda bugs me (just a little) about introducing new characters in the prequels and other series such as Rebels and Clone Wars.  If they're canon, where are they in the movies?  I'll give a pass to Qui-Gon Jinn, since there was never really a time when Obi-Wan would have had occassion to mention the name of his mentor, so Qui-Gon's character arc was completely within the prequels.  But Ahsoka Tano is a beloved character, and a very important one to Anakin.  So why is there no mention of her in Episode III?

And yeah, I realize that the practical answer is "because she was invented later".  But that points out the potential issues with characters like this.  If they're so important, even if they died, you'd think that there would be some reference to them.  Instead, all these characters are absent from the movies.

[ariich]

This does bring up something that kinda bugs me (just a little) about introducing new characters in the prequels and other series such as Rebels and Clone Wars.  If they're canon, where are they in the movies?  I'll give a pass to Qui-Gon Jinn, since there was never really a time when Obi-Wan would have had occassion to mention the name of his mentor, so Qui-Gon's character arc was completely within the prequels.  But Ahsoka Tano is a beloved character, and a very important one to Anakin.  So why is there no mention of her in Episode III?

And yeah, I realize that the practical answer is "because she was invented later".  But that points out the potential issues with characters like this.  If they're so important, even if they died, you'd think that there would be some reference to them.  Instead, all these characters are absent from the movies.

I dunno, movies are by their nature pretty short and to the point. At what point or in what context would you expect them to just randomly talk about other jedi not relevant to the plot.

With a long-form TV show I'd take your point, but in movies I think it's pretty normal to focus on the main plot, and references to previous episodes/whatever are normally just for fun.

And in fact Ahsoka's voice is heard by Rey in Rise of Skywalker along with various other jedi.

[Orbert]

Fair point.

And in fact Ahsoka's voice is heard by Rey in Rise of Skywalker along with various other jedi.

Ah, that's right.  I remember reading that somewhere.

[jingle.boy]

Wtf no, just stop.

     I mean....I highly doubt they'd throw Luke into the mix here but it's plausible that Grogu ends up at Luke's school.....therefore.....would have been killed by Kylo Ren.


But I'd have to lean more towards the Ezra Bridger angle given all we've seen from the series so far. It seems to be tying in to a few of the animated series storylines.

Ya know what I'd dig... if they started pulling in other Star Wars franchises.  Like Rahm Kota from the video game The Force Unleashed.

[gmillerdrake]

Wtf no, just stop.

     I mean....I highly doubt they'd throw Luke into the mix here but it's plausible that Grogu ends up at Luke's school.....therefore.....would have been killed by Kylo Ren.


But I'd have to lean more towards the Ezra Bridger angle given all we've seen from the series so far. It seems to be tying in to a few of the animated series storylines.

Ya know what I'd dig... if they started pulling in other Star Wars franchises.  Like Rahm Kota from the video game The Force Unleashed.

I think they’re proving that if done properly it could work with any of these ‘side’......outside the immediate lore.....characters.

[lordxizor]

Friend of mine suggested they get the Winter Soldier to play Luke if he were to ever show up. I can dig that

Mark Hamill suggested that a long time ago.

[lordxizor]

I keep thinking about how this all ends for Grogu. Clearly he can't survive out in the open since he's not around for the sequel trilogy. I wouldn't mind The Mandalorian ending with him being dropped off at Luke's Jedi Academy. We all know what's going to happen with Ben Solo, but they don't need to show it. It would be a bittersweet ending, but honestly, most of the best Star Wars movies have bittersweet endings (Empire, Rogue One, Revenge of the Sith, Last Jedi). I also wouldn't mind Din sacrificing himself to save Grogu somehow, again with the bittersweet ending.

[lonestar]

I've thought that a lot myself...I can see them putting him in exile a la Luke and Lei with someone safe for a few decades while the whole 7-9 movies take place, and having him in check for future adventures if needed. Maybe a decade from now we'll all be posting "OMFG GROGU IS BACK THEY AGED HIM SO GOOD SUCH RESPECT FOR THE CHARACTER!!!" and we'll be making fun of the plebes who haven't watched Mandalorian.

[gmillerdrake]

I keep thinking about how this all ends for Grogu. Clearly he can't survive out in the open since he's not around for the sequel trilogy. I wouldn't mind The Mandalorian ending with him being dropped off at Luke's Jedi Academy. We all know what's going to happen with Ben Solo, but they don't need to show it. It would be a bittersweet ending, but honestly, most of the best Star Wars movies have bittersweet endings (Empire, Rogue One, Revenge of the Sith, Last Jedi). I also wouldn't mind Din sacrificing himself to save Grogu somehow, again with the bittersweet ending.

Yeah....that is a curious thing since there was no hint of him in the sequel trilogy. But then again.....the way that species ages he may not even have been old enough to have any type of impact? One thing is for sure.....Filoni and Favreau have something mapped out. I don't think they're winging this. Until given a reason not to I'll trust them to tell this story without fear of it being a major turd.

[Adami]

Yea, I doubt they will end it with him being killed off screen by Kylo.

I think Gary is right in that he still wouldn't be old enough to matter during the sequel trilogy. Maybe it'll lead to a new small Jedi order being formed that was kept away during the First Order stuff and can be explored in future films instead?

[Orbert]

So Ahsoka is not technically a Jedi, just as Kylo Ren was not a Sith.  It's not like using The Force automatically makes you one or the other.  And of course we have the title "The Last Jedi" although I don't remember if they ever came right out and said exactly what that means (or meant).  At the end of that movie we had Broom Boy, future spokesmodel for "Anyone Can Use The Force".  Now throw in a dash of that message we've been getting hints about for a while now: the Jedi order was kinda fucked up sometimes.

Anyway, I think it'd be cool if Grogu goes off and eventually grows up and becomes part of (or possibly starts) some new order of what might have been called Jedi, except we don't use labels like that anymore.  It's just The Force; you either got it or you don't, and baby, he's got it.

[gmillerdrake]

So Ahsoka is not technically a Jedi

Not by 'name'....only because she told the counsel to go F themselves after they turned their backs on her......then once Anakin proved to them they were a$$holes they wanted her back and she said thanks but no thanks. But she's more of a Jedi than say....Rey. 

[Orbert]

That I believe.  I'm just saying that "The Last Jedi" (the phrase itself, not necessarily the movie) implies that there are literally no more.  Or just the one left.  Or because "Jedi" -- in English, anyway -- is both singular and plural, so it could also mean "the last Jedi, however many that is."

I'm just tossing shit out there, because the idea that Grogu would still be alive during the time of the sequel trilogy would mean that Rey was not the last Jedi, although as you point out, she wasn't a Jedi.  But hey, Luke studied with Yoda for a long weekend, a couple weeks, tops, and Rey hung out with Luke for a vague yet similarly brief time.  I don't remember Yoda telling Luke "A Jedi now, you are" yet Luke seemed to think he was.

[gmillerdrake]

Cool interview with Dave Filoni and Rosario Dawson


https://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2020/11/rosario-dawson-dave-filoni-mandalorian-ahsoka-tano-grogu

[Cool Chris]

So, just to chime in here.... Star Wars was the definitive franchise of my youth. I wore out my VHS tapes, had a ton of toys, saw the Special Editions in the theater multiple times, including each on opening day, pre-ordered the VHS copies when they were announced, played dozens of SW video games on multiple consoles, read Expanded Universe books and drafts of the script to A New Hope, then saw Eps 7-9 in the theater.... and I have no idea who the hell Ahsoka is. 

[The Realm]

Cool Chris - I love this post! I also would totally agree with everything you just said however a couple of months ago my kids made me watch some of The Clone Wars and Rebels tv shows so I'm kind of up to date with Ashoka now.

[gmillerdrake]

the idea that Grogu would still be alive during the time of the sequel trilogy would mean that Rey was not the last Jedi, although as you point out, she wasn't a Jedi.

I didn’t mean to imply Rey wasn’t a Jedi. Only that IMO Ahsoka has had far more training (with arguably the greatest Jedi ever AND HIS Master) and experience both in battle and wielding the force than Rey ever had. I’ve argued this with Bosk a few times......I don’t see Reys ‘achievements’ as earned.....they’re convenient and cheap when you view the sequel trilogy....more or less handed to her by wishful writing with the hopes SW fans would buy her being this ultimate Jedi without putting in the work.

There’s no comparison IMO to be had between the two because Ashoka’s on a whole different level than Rey.

[Orbert]

I'm just riffing.  To be honest, I don't know exactly what defines a Jedi.  If it's explained in canon, then I've missed it or forgotten it.  A Jedi isn't just someone who uses The Force.  You have to be trained.  Broom Boy wasn't a Jedi.  Blind Chinese Guy from Rogue One wasn't a Jedi.  There's the Jedi Academy or whatever it's called, so apparently you have to be trained.  As I said, Luke trained with Yoda, but I don't remember Yoda ever telling Luke that he's a Jedi.  If anything, I thought he said his training wasn't complete.  Or maybe Yoda did finish his training, because I also remember Luke saying something like "Then I am a Jedi" in a moment which was clearly supposed to be meaningful (but which kinda failed for me).

So what makes a Jedi?  It's not just someone who's Force-sensitive and trained.  Is it an official designation, a "rank" that you earn?  That would imply that you have to reach a certain proficiency level, which also implies some kind of test.  Grogu told Ahsoka that he trained with different masters for years.  We've already seen him stop the mudhorn and levitate it, block a blast that would've incinerated them, and of course steal the mint macaroons.  But that doesn't make him a Jedi.

Ahsoka considers herself a former Jedi.  She left the order (or was asked to leave, or something).  So again, it's more like a rank or title.  Then you have Jedi Master, again implying that there's some kind of evaluation, and one or more persons who grant you that title.

Again, I'm just riffing.  If this is all explained somewhere canonically, I'd love to hear it.

[Stadler]

Don't know why Orbert's post made me think of this, but Daisy Haze knows what it takes to be a Jedi.   

(NSFW).

[Orbert]

Was there supposed to be a link there?

[Stadler]

Was there supposed to be a link there?

No. Can't.   She's an adult performer who has the Jedi symbol tattooed prominently on her lower abdomen/hip.  I'm pretty sure that makes her a Jedi, though I can't prove that.

[ZirconBlue]

As I said, Luke trained with Yoda, but I don't remember Yoda ever telling Luke that he's a Jedi.  If anything, I thought he said his training wasn't complete.  Or maybe Yoda did finish his training, because I also remember Luke saying something like "Then I am a Jedi" in a moment which was clearly supposed to be meaningful (but which kinda failed for me).

In Empire, when Luke leaves Dagobah, Yoda tells him he's not ready.  When he comes back in Jedi, is when Yoda says his training is complete.

[Orbert]

Ah, that makes sense.  I forgot he went back for more training.

[bosk1]

Yes, being a "Jedi" means more than just being a skilled user of the light side force, and "Sith" means more than just being a skilled user of the dark side force.  Being a jedi means being a member of the jedi order. 

"The Last Jedi" was confirmed to be singular, and later was confirmed to refer to Luke.  And even though he agrees to train Rey, he is also quite clear that the jedi order itself needs to end and no longer exist.  It just gets a bit more muddy in Rise of Skywalker because she is training, basically, as a jedi under Leia and is using the jedi texts to arguably resurrect something like the jedi order.  You can chalk it up to either being intentionally vague, inconsistent writing of the sequel trilogy, or something else.  But it is what it is.

But with regard to Ahsoka, going back to the first paragraph, she is not a "jedi" because she left/was expelled from the jedi order.  Simple as that.  She is highly trained AND battle tested as a jedi (as Gary pointed out--moreso than Rey).  But isn't one simply by virtue of not being a member of the order.

[Orbert]

How does one officially become a member of the order?  Asking for a friend.

[bosk1]

I don't know that the "rules" are ever concretely explained.  But as with a lot of things in life, I think that is easier to answer when there is a fully-functioning organization in place.  We see that in the prequel trilogy.  There is a council that runs the jedi order and makes ultimate decisions.  They appear to have final say on who is in and who is out.  So basically, the jedi council admits, denies, and/or expels members.  At the end of Revenge of the Sith, the jedi order as an organization is basically destroyed.  But some masters survive.  Fast forward to Luke's training.  Even though there is no functioning organization, Yoda is one of the last surviving masters.  And he was head of the council when there was one.  It isn't clear to me whether he exercises authority as simply one of the last survivors and by virtue of his former position, or whether he is also communing with the force and other departed masters about Luke, but either way, he exercises authority to make Luke a jedi.  From the sequel trilogy, we get that Luke, as a master himself and one of the only jedi left in the galaxy, is restoring/remaking the jedi order.  He starts the jedi academy and is training others to become jedi.  So...there you go.

[gmillerdrake]

How does one officially become a member of the order?  Asking for a friend.

You have to get two friends to agree to the order.....then they get two friends to join.....and so on. Once you get 100 people under you’re training you’re a Jedi.