Author Topic: Star Wars Discussion Thread v. Rise of Skywalker / Mandalorian (merged)  (Read 248050 times)

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Offline El Barto

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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Last Jedi
« Reply #245 on: December 28, 2017, 01:50:31 PM »
But how is it "contrived?"  Just because the overall fate for many of the characters was a foregone conclusion doesn't necessarily make it "contrived."  I'm not sure I understand what you guys are saying.
I don't think it was contrived because of the predetermined fate of the characters. I think the film itself was, though perhaps amazingly formulaic would be a better description.

Me personally, I just could not stay interested in Rogue One. Going into a story like that already knowing the plot (they're going to steal the plans for the Death Star and they're disposable characters who are going to die) really killed any desire to stay interested in the characters. There was no emotional weight there for me, basically. No surprises except Vader at the end.
Perhaps I'm just dense, but it didn't really dawn on me that everybody had to die until about halfway through the movie, by which point there were a couple of characters I'd grown fond of.
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Offline Implode

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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Last Jedi
« Reply #246 on: December 28, 2017, 02:38:38 PM »
Just saw TLJ again last night. 70% of the movie is just a miserable slog to get through. But the 30% that's interesting is truly amazing.

Offline MrBoom_shack-a-lack

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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Last Jedi
« Reply #247 on: December 28, 2017, 04:22:53 PM »
Even though it's been said so many times, I still have to mention that after all these years I still get goosebumps when hearing the main theme.  :metal
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Offline lordxizor

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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Last Jedi
« Reply #248 on: December 28, 2017, 07:26:28 PM »
Even though it's been said so many times, I still have to mention that after all these years I still get goosebumps when hearing the main theme.  :metal
Me too. That and the sound of a lightsaber.

Offline El Barto

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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Last Jedi
« Reply #249 on: December 28, 2017, 09:17:14 PM »
Even though it's been said so many times, I still have to mention that after all these years I still get goosebumps when hearing the main theme.  :metal
Me too. That and the sound of a lightsaber.
TIE-fighters. They've got a weird wild animal sound to them. Love hearing them.

As for music the main theme never did much for me, but the various leitmotifs get me all the time. Even the aforementioned opening fanfare when used as a callback.
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Offline contest_sanity

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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Last Jedi
« Reply #250 on: December 28, 2017, 10:43:17 PM »
I thought of an interesting parallel with Episode III. Figured I would share so that I would finally start getting updates on this thread. I've seen some people getting upset that Luke even drew his lightsaber on Ben Solo, even if he immediately thought better of actually taking him down. While we might reasonably disagree on whether or not this was "in character" for Luke, I realized this was not the first time we have seen a young Jedi, heavily tempted by the Dark Side, only complete their full turn into evil with the aid of possible Jedi malpractice.

In the case of Ben Solo, Luke drawing his blade (and of course the consequent perception -- even if untrue -- that Luke was in fact trying to kill him). I could not help but think back on Episode III how Anakin wanted to arrest Palpatine and put him on trial, but Mace Windu had devolved into wishing to execute him, a seeming violation of the Jedi code. And therefore, whether it was intended by the writers or not, during the flashback sequences of Luke drawing his light saber over a sleeping Ben Solo, I could hear Mace saying, "He's too dangerous to be left alive..."

Offline Adami

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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Last Jedi
« Reply #251 on: December 28, 2017, 10:46:02 PM »
I thought of an interesting parallel with Episode III. Figured I would share so that I would finally start getting updates on this thread. I've seen some people getting upset that Luke even drew his lightsaber on Ben Solo, even if he immediately thought better of actually taking him down. While we might reasonably disagree on whether or not this was "in character" for Luke, I realized this was not the first time we have seen a young Jedi, heavily tempted by the Dark Side, only complete their full turn into evil with the aid of possible Jedi malpractice.

In the case of Ben Solo, Luke drawing his blade (and of course the consequent perception -- even if untrue -- that Luke was in fact trying to kill him). I could not help but think back on Episode III how Anakin wanted to arrest Palpatine and put him on trial, but Mace Windu had devolved into wishing to execute him, a seeming violation of the Jedi code. And therefore, whether it was intended by the writers or not, during the flashback sequences of Luke drawing his light saber over a sleeping Ben Solo, I could hear Mace saying, "He's too dangerous to be left alive..."

Not sure comparing it to the prequels is helping the argument.
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Offline contest_sanity

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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Last Jedi
« Reply #252 on: December 28, 2017, 11:07:22 PM »
^ I wasn't really making an argument, just noting a parallel. Though upon reflection I personally thought it might have been a slight stretch that Luke would really have immediately drawn his light saber so quickly, who really knows? If all of a sudden he had deep suspicions as to Ben's temptation, and was also increasingly paranoid that he had missed it because of his own hubris, maybe to look upon Ben and so strikingly "see" the extent of his darkness: perhaps I can understand drawing the light saber as a reflex.

Hell, maybe I was just in a dark place myself, or perhaps Luke's characterization really was that convincing, but  when Kylo told "his version" of the story the first time, part of me thought that perhaps he was telling the truth. Like maybe Luke really did try and kill him...

Of course, the "truth is somewhere in the middle" version of the third time we saw it makes a lot more sense, and makes me feel a lot better, but for a moment there they had me wondering...

EDIT: but I'm also still liking Runaways, so what do I know, lol

Offline BlackInk

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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Last Jedi
« Reply #253 on: December 29, 2017, 12:10:43 AM »
For me, Luke drawing his lightsaber makes sense enough. It seems that he was not only ”suspicious of Ben’s temptations”, but from what we heard it seemed more like Luke could see and hear what he would come to do. Suddenly there is an incredibly powerful dark side enemy right in front of you who you’ve just witnessed through visions destroy your entire world. I can certainly understand taking the blade out, just in a brief moment of fear and insinct.

Offline Destiny Of Chaos

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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Last Jedi
« Reply #254 on: December 29, 2017, 04:33:33 AM »
I thought of an interesting parallel with Episode III. Figured I would share so that I would finally start getting updates on this thread. I've seen some people getting upset that Luke even drew his lightsaber on Ben Solo, even if he immediately thought better of actually taking him down. While we might reasonably disagree on whether or not this was "in character" for Luke, I realized this was not the first time we have seen a young Jedi, heavily tempted by the Dark Side, only complete their full turn into evil with the aid of possible Jedi malpractice.

In the case of Ben Solo, Luke drawing his blade (and of course the consequent perception -- even if untrue -- that Luke was in fact trying to kill him). I could not help but think back on Episode III how Anakin wanted to arrest Palpatine and put him on trial, but Mace Windu had devolved into wishing to execute him, a seeming violation of the Jedi code. And therefore, whether it was intended by the writers or not, during the flashback sequences of Luke drawing his light saber over a sleeping Ben Solo, I could hear Mace saying, "He's too dangerous to be left alive..."


That is an interesting parrellel.

Offline IDontNotDoThings

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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Last Jedi
« Reply #255 on: December 29, 2017, 05:02:34 AM »
I thought of an interesting parallel with Episode III. Figured I would share so that I would finally start getting updates on this thread. I've seen some people getting upset that Luke even drew his lightsaber on Ben Solo, even if he immediately thought better of actually taking him down. While we might reasonably disagree on whether or not this was "in character" for Luke, I realized this was not the first time we have seen a young Jedi, heavily tempted by the Dark Side, only complete their full turn into evil with the aid of possible Jedi malpractice.

In the case of Ben Solo, Luke drawing his blade (and of course the consequent perception -- even if untrue -- that Luke was in fact trying to kill him). I could not help but think back on Episode III how Anakin wanted to arrest Palpatine and put him on trial, but Mace Windu had devolved into wishing to execute him, a seeming violation of the Jedi code. And therefore, whether it was intended by the writers or not, during the flashback sequences of Luke drawing his light saber over a sleeping Ben Solo, I could hear Mace saying, "He's too dangerous to be left alive..."


That is an interesting parrellel.

Maybe that's why Luke took it so personally & abandoned the Jedi ways altogether. Not just the "almost murdering his nephew" thing, but also the idea that he was becoming more like his father Darth Vader (spoilers lol) had probably loomed over his mind for some time, which could factor into why he became so overcome with guilt once he realised what he had done & what it could mean for him as a person.
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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Last Jedi
« Reply #256 on: December 29, 2017, 06:32:03 AM »
But how is it "contrived?"  Just because the overall fate for many of the characters was a foregone conclusion doesn't necessarily make it "contrived."  I'm not sure I understand what you guys are saying.

I just meant (most) movies in general... bad guys lose; good guys win with no/few casualties.

Me personally, I just could not stay interested in Rogue One. Going into a story like that already knowing the plot (they're going to steal the plans for the Death Star and they're disposable characters who are going to die) really killed any desire to stay interested in the characters. There was no emotional weight there for me, basically. No surprises except Vader at the end.

Don't bother watching Apollo 13 then.

Even though it's been said so many times, I still have to mention that after all these years I still get goosebumps when hearing the main theme.  :metal

Ditto... I just miss the 20th-Century Fox orchestral segue.   :sad:
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Offline BlackInk

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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Last Jedi
« Reply #257 on: December 29, 2017, 07:08:41 AM »
Yeah, knowing the character’s fates doesn’t lessen the amount I care. If it did then some real-life based movies would lose their value, or no movies would have any re-watchability.

I dislike Rogue One because I think the characters are just straight up bad, not because I knew they’d die.

Offline The Walrus

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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Last Jedi
« Reply #258 on: December 29, 2017, 07:28:15 AM »
Me personally, I just could not stay interested in Rogue One. Going into a story like that already knowing the plot (they're going to steal the plans for the Death Star and they're disposable characters who are going to die) really killed any desire to stay interested in the characters. There was no emotional weight there for me, basically. No surprises except Vader at the end.

Don't bother watching Apollo 13 then.

Already ahead of you. That's partially why I've still not seen it (the other part being I never had interest in watching it anyway).  :lol

The thing about Rogue One though is that the whole story was something that I don't think necessitated a movie. But that's just my opinion. I honestly don't think any of the Star Wars films are actually great films. The lore, the universe of Star Wars, is amazing - but the films don't do it enough justice in my opinion. I try to reason with myself and understand that the EU came way after the original trilogy, but my first taste of SW was seeing Phantom Menace in theaters when I was 8. I didn't actually see the OT until my late teens.

Also I watched the despecialized version of Empire (again) last night. Apart from Harrison Ford's god awful acting and the lame humor it is easily the best Star Wars, the second half *never* gets boring to me. But I also don't understand why some have said TLJ is the Empire of this trilogy at all. Don't see many similarities.
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Offline El Barto

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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Last Jedi
« Reply #259 on: December 29, 2017, 08:14:37 AM »
Me personally, I just could not stay interested in Rogue One. Going into a story like that already knowing the plot (they're going to steal the plans for the Death Star and they're disposable characters who are going to die) really killed any desire to stay interested in the characters. There was no emotional weight there for me, basically. No surprises except Vader at the end.

Don't bother watching Apollo 13 then.

Already ahead of you. That's partially why I've still not seen it (the other part being I never had interest in watching it anyway).  :lol
There are plenty of reasons to watch movies aside from the suspense of the unknown. One of my favorite movies is The Longest Day, but there wasn't a whole lot of suspense there (Spoiler alert--the Allies won WWII). For one thing, I never get tired of witnessing true depictions of great heroism. A13 certainly has its fair share, mostly from the guys back on the ground. It also allowed us to see recreations of various aspects that technology couldn't show at the time, as well as the remarkable contributions of guys most would otherwise never have heard of (how many people know who Sy Leibergot is?).
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Offline The Walrus

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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Last Jedi
« Reply #260 on: December 29, 2017, 08:21:20 AM »
Right, there are lots of reasons to watch films. But Apollo 13 has never sounded interesting to me, so I don't plan to watch it, that's it.  :)
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Offline bosk1

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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Last Jedi
« Reply #261 on: December 29, 2017, 09:28:42 AM »
Well, I really liked R1.  A lot.  I can't say I "loved" the characters.  But for the roles they had to fill, I liked them enough.  The one who seemed glaringly underdeveloped given his role was Saw.  But I still can't separate in my own mind whether I feel that way because the plot really needed him to be more developed and would have been better served by that, or it I am unduly swayed by the fact that having an actor like Forrest Whitaker playing the role alone gives the character so much gravitas that underdevelopment just feels almost criminally wasteful.  I guess I probably suspect it is mostly the former, but definitely influenced a bit by the latter as well.  But, again, I think the characters were mostly very good for what they had to do.

I really liked the juxtaposition of genres where you have the war/suicide assault subgenre coupled with basically a heist/treasure hunt genre.  It's already a fairly rare combination as it is, and is even more novel when set in a sci-fi universe.  And pretty unexpected for the Star Wars universe.  It is a bit jarring and disorienting at the beginning of the film on first viewing to have it jump all over the place.  But I feel that it isn't too hard to keep it in perspective, even if some of the specifics of "where are we, and why are we here again?" get lost the first time around.  I thought it was fun and effective.

There are some things at the end that seemed off and bother me a bit.  But that's just part of the package.  We can basically go through the entire Star Wars saga and pick apart each and every film if we want to.  And, honestly, every franchise that grows beyond a film or two seems to have continuity errors where something doesn't quite match up or rules that are established early on get broken later.  It's just the nature of the beast where you don't have one person or one team sit down in the beginning and write out the entire story (which is a virtual impossibility).  Even Marvel, as painstaking as they have been about building the MCU, has had this problem.  It just is what it is, and I've resigned myself to the fact that it's just meant to be fun and entertaining, and even beyond my own subjective expectations and "wants" as a fan, there are going to be continuity problems and other flaws.  Can't let those get in the way of enjoying something that is just meant to be a bit of frivolous fun.  That doesn't mean the films are above critical analysis.  And it doesn't mean that there aren't big, important themes or deep symbolism that can't be explored.  But the main purpose isn't to reveal some deep human truth.  It's just to give us a fun story.  And I think the franchise has largely succeeded, even if there have been some speed bumps along the way.  Rogue One and The Last Jedi are just two examples to me of that very thing: flawed movies that, notwithstanding their flaws, are really well-executed and fun as a whole.  In fact, I would say that since the move to Disney, all three films we have thus far are among the best in the franchise because, IMO, they have kept the fun factor and feel and nostalgia of the original franchise, while not OVERLY dumbing things down like the PT, not having as much bad acting and direction as the PT, and solving some of the plodding an pacing issues that the OT had.  In so many ways, again despite flaws that I recognize and acknowledge, they are just spot on and satisfying when I let go of expectations (some of which are unreasonable; some of which are not) and just enjoy.

But expectations coupled with the "new toy"/"new car smell" aspect of TLJ had me thinking some interesting thoughts this morning.  I liked TLJ.  I really, really liked it.  But there were some obvious issues as well, which we have discussed.  I'm just wondering how much those issues will overshadow the positive once this whole thing is wrapped up.  I think back to the PT.  When it was announced that Lucas was finally doing it, the excitement was off the charts.  Those of us who had grown up on Star Wars were starved for new content as it was, and the backstory of Anakin becoming Vader had become legend.  We were all dying to see how it would play out on screen.  And the Republic.  And all kinds of Jedi running around doing...jedi stuff!  When TPM came out, the reception was overall pretty positive.  People had no problem overlooking and glossing over the flaws, for the most part, because "Darth Maul!" and "epic lightsaber fight/space battle montage!" and "Galactic Republic!" and "jedi everywhere!" and such.  It had problems.  And people called out the problems and discussed them.  But overall, I feel like the general consensus was "yeah, it had major issues--and don't get me started on Jar-jar; bleh!!!--but it is Star Wars, and it was fun and good, despite any issues it might have had."  It wasn't really until after the PT had concluded that I really started to have issues with this film.  Then came AotC.  People, myself included, had MAJOR issues with this one.  A lot of it was the horrible acting and directing.  But some of it was purely story-driven as well.  The criticism was much more out there from the beginning.  But still, the reaction wasn't overly bad simply because we were all far too enamored with a TON of jedi drawing lightsabers in the arena battle and finally getting to see the start of the actual clone wars.  And Christopher Lee was in it.  Those things distracted us from totally slamming the film (and are still pretty redeeming to this day, actually).  And for those that played the Dark Forces games, the falling ship sequence was actually really cool too.  There was still an air of, "well, it is flawed, sure, but it's Star Wars, and it's still fun and cool, so I'm going to love it anyway."  So, where I'm going with this is:  I am a bit concerned that I find myself saying the similar things about the three Disney Star Wars films to date.  I am a bit concerned that my nostalgia and love of the franchise might be fueling an unspoken need deep within me to defend these movies and overlook their flaws, and that they will actually not stand the test of time and eventually be thought of in a similar light as the PT.  Part of me feels that it really COULD end up playing out like that.  I hope I'm wrong.  And, for what it's worth, I really think I will be wrong on that count.  These latest films DO feel qualitatively more solid than the PT.  They just do.  And going back to the word "contrived" that was used early, the fun in these films feels much less "contrived" to me than it did in the PT films.  I guess only time will tell whether these movies stand up, and how well.  But, again, they just feel more solid to me and feel like they will wind up holding up better over time.  Thoughts?

tl;dnr:  I have no sympathy for you.  Just grow an attention span and read it.  :lol
« Last Edit: December 29, 2017, 10:04:25 AM by bosk1 »
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Offline kaos2900

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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Last Jedi
« Reply #262 on: December 29, 2017, 10:46:53 AM »
You said it right when you mentioned that EVERY Star Wars film and show (Clone Wars and Rebels) are flawed. There are moments of brilliance, meh, and eye rolling scenes that make you want to stab your eyes out. That all being said I FREAKING LOVE STAR WARS! I love the characters, the lore, and the universe. I like all the shows and movies, some more than others obviously. I still think that TLJ is great and most people I know think the same. I don't get the outrage around the film. People complained about TFA being too similar to ANH and then TLJ comes out taking a ton of risks, just like Empire if you think about it, and people are pissed because they didn't get the answers they were expecting. I've come to the conclusion that there is a subset of Star Wars fans comprised mainly of people who grew up with the original trilogy who will not like any thing post ROTJ. I'll be the first to admit that nothing in Star Wars is perfect but I'll be shocked if something comes out that I end up hating. People are too damn critical now a days. Look at the response to The Hobbit films. Not perfect, but not the atrocity that the internet makes it out to be.

Offline bosk1

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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Last Jedi
« Reply #263 on: December 29, 2017, 11:08:20 AM »
I still think that TLJ is great and most people I know think the same. I don't get the outrage around the film. People complained about TFA being too similar to ANH and then TLJ comes out taking a ton of risks, just like Empire if you think about it, and people are pissed because they didn't get the answers they were expecting.

Yeah, I hear you.  I think you can largely lump most people who didn't like it into two categories (although there are plenty who fall into both categories, and plenty of others who had different issues):  (1) Those that are mad because they didn't get answers and/or didn't get answers they were expecting; and (2) Those that felt the underlying premise of the "slow chase" was just silly and that the other major plot point, the side question to Canto Bight, didn't work.  As to the former, yeah, that's just being overly critical.  If you didn't like not getting answers, fine.  But that isn't the film's fault--it's just that you don't happen to like the choice they made.  That's on you.  As to the second, I get it.  I'm okay with it.  But ultimately, both premises (or, probably more accurately, the way in which they were executed) are open to criticism.  Again, I'm ultimately okay with what they did, but both could have been done much, much better, IMO.  And I think a well-reasoned argument that the execution of ideas like that fell short is always valid, even if I might personally disagree with that assessment.

You said it right when you mentioned that EVERY Star Wars film and show (Clone Wars and Rebels) are flawed. There are moments of brilliance, meh, and eye rolling scenes that make you want to stab your eyes out. That all being said I FREAKING LOVE STAR WARS! I love the characters, the lore, and the universe. I like all the shows and movies, some more than others obviously.

Yeah, I would describe myself similarly.  But I had an interesting and, I guess, somewhat unconventional relationship with Star Wars.  As a 7-year-old, I wasn't reall aware of the lead-up to the release of the first one.  My uncle worked at a drive-in theater in town, and began hyping it, which got me excited.  We went and saw it, and I thought it was fun.  But the pacing was an issue, even back then.  It didn't manage to hold a 7-year-old's attention during the slower paced parts, even with their stunning visuals.  But I liked it.  But that following entire school year, it was hyped to the hilt by other kids, and by the release of toys and other merch, to the point where I came to love it through all of that rather than on the film's own merits.  I spend endless hours drawing space battles, playing with all the toys I got for Christmas that year and the following year, and building other scenes out of legos.  For whatever reason, while I still liked it, my excitement had died down a bit by the release of Empire, and I somehow managed to not see that one in the theater.  I wouldn't see it until sometime far later when it was out on video.  And I went through a similar cycle of initially growing to love it more through the extra stuff than through the film itself.  But by the time ROTJ came out, I had seen the two previous films many times and was firmly a fan on the merits themselves.  But looking back, it is an interesting and strange journey to have arrived there.

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Offline The Walrus

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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Last Jedi
« Reply #264 on: December 29, 2017, 01:48:38 PM »
 Just seems like Rey and Kylo had massive plot armor for that scene in Snoke's chamber. Dude can track people at light speed (new ability apparently never seen before...), and bridge people's minds across the galaxy (also new ability), but... couldn't sense his own apprentice moving the lightsaber right next to him? C'mon. That's my biggest problem with the films, they're fun, but these really pivotal moments (in every one of them) don't make much sense when you think about it, after all these are seriously powerful and clever people we're discussing. And I wish they did because the universe is so rich and fascinating and these moments/characters deserve better!
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Offline bosk1

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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Last Jedi
« Reply #265 on: December 29, 2017, 02:12:13 PM »
I liked your original post before you edited it better.  ;)  And what I meant by "that isn't the film's fault" has to do with just not being satisfied by not getting answers to questions like "who is Snoke?" and "who are Rey's parents?"  Not giving answers wasn't an "oops, we missed that," which would imply fault.  It was an intentional creative decision to address those with different forms of "it doesn't matter."  So for fans who don't like the answers/non-answers they were given, it isn't an issue of "fault."  It isn't an issue of the movie having "objective" flaws.  It is an issue of the film doing something a viewer subjectively feels they disagree with.  And that's fine.  If someone doesn't like it or isn't satisfied with it, cool.  But that is an issue of taste, not an issue of bad film making that would somehow justify an online petition to have the film removed from canon.  :lol

Your beef is different, so my post wasn't really addressing you.  But I still think it falls more into the category of "this didn't work for me, and I think it could have been done better."  But to address couple of your points, for what it's worth:

Dude can track people at light speed (new ability apparently never seen before...)
Well, no.  That isn't his ability.  It isn't something he does with the force.  It's a technological development.  They (the First Order) developed the technology to track ships at light speed, and there were devices on the ships that could do that.

...and bridge people's minds across the galaxy (also new ability)

Yes. 

...but... couldn't sense his own apprentice moving the lightsaber right next to him? C'mon.

Well, okay...again, you're entitled to feel that that was too much of a stretch and it didn't work for you.  I get it.  There were definitely things in the film that had that feel for me as well.  But (1) see below; and (2) let me explain why, at least for me, this isn't one of those things that bothered me:  We still don't know exactly how the force, or a lot of specific force abilities work.  Kylo could get inside people's minds as well.  But we don't know what that looks like.  We don't know how specifically he can see things.  Same with Snoke, even though he is (was) more powerful and experienced.  But apparently, I think we are supposed to infer that there are degrees.  Either he can't see certain specifics, or, in his arrogance, he chose not to look too deeply and misinterpreted what he was seeing.  I think it's a bit of both.  He "saw" what Kylo was doing in terms of the steps Kylo was taking.  Kylo was going to raise his saber.  He was going to strike down one strong in the force.  He was going to ignite his saber.  But he wasn't seeing clearly.  Could he have?  I think we are meant to think that, probably, yes, he could have.  But in his hubris, he didn't.  He thought he had it figured out, so he didn't strive to see clearly, and that was also probably influenced by Kylo (and possibly Rey as well) obscuring his vision so that he would be tricked.  In other words, he mentally let his guard down because he arrogantly thought he had everything and everybody figured out, and it cost him.  I buy that.  It fits the theme of the film, and it feels plausible within the boundaries of what was revealed to us about how things work.  If you feel otherwise, that's cool.  Just sharing why it works for me.

As to the "see below" portion, I want to come back to this:
That's my biggest problem with the films, they're fun, but these really pivotal moments (in every one of them) don't make much sense when you think about it, after all these are seriously powerful and clever people we're discussing. And I wish they did because the universe is so rich and fascinating and these moments/characters deserve better!

Okay, but I think you are perhaps elevating the films too much, which my longer post above kind of addresses.  I think we have a tendency to revere some things too much, and in our culture, Star Wars is one of those things that we have put up on a pedestal and look at through rose colored glasses.  I just think it is easier to enjoy it for seeing it for what it is:  a series of fun stories that, yes, have many flaws and HAVE ALWAYS had many flaws, but are still fun nonetheless if we stop holding them to such high standards that even the originals don't really meet.
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Offline The Walrus

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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Last Jedi
« Reply #266 on: December 29, 2017, 02:40:34 PM »
See, that's my thing. I said what I said because I'm afraid that they really do not have any idea what to do with Snoke and don't have a backstory for him, and even if they go into it in episode 9, I fear that will take away time from other important things they have to cover. It's apprehension. I do think that is the first film's fault because it set Snoke up as this fearsome baddie.

Your beef is different, so my post wasn't really addressing you.  But I still think it falls more into the category of "this didn't work for me, and I think it could have been done better."  But to address couple of your points, for what it's worth:

Kinda, yeah :)

Dude can track people at light speed (new ability apparently never seen before...)
Well, no.  That isn't his ability.  It isn't something he does with the force.  It's a technological development.  They (the First Order) developed the technology to track ships at light speed, and there were devices on the ships that could do that.

Honest question, was it described in film as technology? If so I missed it. I just remember them saying something along the lines of, "He tracked us!" and I attributed it to Snoke since he is so powerful, and was bridging Rey's and Kylo's minds (although I'm not sure if that was revealed before or after the light speed tracking - after, right?).

...but... couldn't sense his own apprentice moving the lightsaber right next to him? C'mon.

Well, okay...again, you're entitled to feel that that was too much of a stretch and it didn't work for you.  I get it.  There were definitely things in the film that had that feel for me as well.  But (1) see below; and (2) let me explain why, at least for me, this isn't one of those things that bothered me:  We still don't know exactly how the force, or a lot of specific force abilities work.  Kylo could get inside people's minds as well.  But we don't know what that looks like.  We don't know how specifically he can see things.  Same with Snoke, even though he is (was) more powerful and experienced.  But apparently, I think we are supposed to infer that there are degrees.  Either he can't see certain specifics, or, in his arrogance, he chose not to look too deeply and misinterpreted what he was seeing.  I think it's a bit of both.  He "saw" what Kylo was doing in terms of the steps Kylo was taking.  Kylo was going to raise his saber.  He was going to strike down one strong in the force.  He was going to ignite his saber.  But he wasn't seeing clearly.  Could he have?  I think we are meant to think that, probably, yes, he could have.  But in his hubris, he didn't.  He thought he had it figured out, so he didn't strive to see clearly, and that was also probably influenced by Kylo (and possibly Rey as well) obscuring his vision so that he would be tricked.  In other words, he mentally let his guard down because he arrogantly thought he had everything and everybody figured out, and it cost him.  I buy that.  It fits the theme of the film, and it feels plausible within the boundaries of what was revealed to us about how things work.  If you feel otherwise, that's cool.  Just sharing why it works for me.

I do see why that makes sense to some people, but to me... it just doesn't feel natural. It feels contrived, and unbelievable. Snoke shows he can do incredible things, and regardless of the piece of work being discussed, I absolutely cannot stand cheap deaths like that. It is a crap way to get rid of a powerful character. Game of Thrones gets rid of powerful characters and it feels satisfying, there is an emotional reaction. Star Wars... it's like amateur hour in comparison. I don't feel the weight of Snoke being cut down by Kylo because I don't know anything about Snoke, he's just another big evil dude with a title to me.

As to the "see below" portion, I want to come back to this:
That's my biggest problem with the films, they're fun, but these really pivotal moments (in every one of them) don't make much sense when you think about it, after all these are seriously powerful and clever people we're discussing. And I wish they did because the universe is so rich and fascinating and these moments/characters deserve better!

Okay, but I think you are perhaps elevating the films too much, which my longer post above kind of addresses.  I think we have a tendency to revere some things too much, and in our culture, Star Wars is one of those things that we have put up on a pedestal and look at through rose colored glasses.  I just think it is easier to enjoy it for seeing it for what it is:  a series of fun stories that, yes, have many flaws and HAVE ALWAYS had many flaws, but are still fun nonetheless if we stop holding them to such high standards that even the originals don't really meet.

My perception of Star Wars is different from yours, I believe. I was 8 when TPM came out. At that time, I was going to the hospital a lot, and there was this room with all sorts of Star Wars toys in it. Hundreds of action figures, posters, cereal boxes, a gigantic R2D2 and C3PO, in this tiny little hospital room. All original trilogy. I grew up reading and listening to people talk about how amazing the characters are, how deep the messages are, how important Star Wars is. So, my whole life, I have always had people putting Star Wars on this pedestal of how rich and fantastic the series is. If I turn off my brain and watch them as fun movies, yeah, that's great. But we have what, 10 films and a whole extended universe to look at. When these filmmakers are bringing this universe to life, I feel like they do a fantastic job on one hand, but on the other, I don't believe any of them do it enough justice to justify all the rabid praise the franchise gets. And I keep expecting someone to come out and really blow my mind. That's why I would love to see this series given a Game of Thrones TV-series treatment and really give these characters the development they deserve instead of making 2.5 hour films where they have to cram in as much as possible. The universe is too rich to be limited to such a small amount of time for even part of a big story.

Like, I dunno. When I finally watched the OT as a teenager I was almost offended by how horrible they were (to me, and at the time). Today I still cringe at the humor and Ford's acting. It just doesn't match this 'legendary' praise the fans give them. Fun movies, yes, but always failing to live up to the universe's potential. But, just so I'm clear, I totally understand your views and what you're saying - I'm just expressing my... disappointment, I suppose, with this amazing franchise. I honestly, truly believe there is untapped potential and I want to see them run with it someday.

Sorry that was so long. I'll stop derailing if this is taking away from the thread.
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Offline bosk1

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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Last Jedi
« Reply #267 on: December 29, 2017, 03:20:57 PM »
Not a derailment at all.

Dude can track people at light speed (new ability apparently never seen before...)
Well, no.  That isn't his ability.  It isn't something he does with the force.  It's a technological development.  They (the First Order) developed the technology to track ships at light speed, and there were devices on the ships that could do that.

Honest question, was it described in film as technology? If so I missed it. I just remember them saying something along the lines of, "He tracked us!" and I attributed it to Snoke since he is so powerful, and was bridging Rey's and Kylo's minds (although I'm not sure if that was revealed before or after the light speed tracking - after, right?).

Yeah, Rose described it as tech.  And that was literally the whole point of their excursion to Canto Bight and then their infiltration of Snoke's ship.  They were trying to find the dude who could sneak them onto the ship so they could disable the tech, not to confront Snoke.  And they also explained that they only then had a short window for the fleet to escape after doing so, because once they detected that they were no longer tracking the fleet because it had been disabled, the other ships in Snoke's contingent could turn on their trackers that they were also likely equipped with.  They were pretty obvious that it was a technology, not a force ability.  And I'm not knocking you for missing it--I missed some obvious things in my first viewing as well--we all do.  I'm only saying it was "obvious" to point out that I'm not guessing on the issue and that it was actually spelled out.   

And on this note:
As to the "see below" portion, I want to come back to this:
That's my biggest problem with the films, they're fun, but these really pivotal moments (in every one of them) don't make much sense when you think about it, after all these are seriously powerful and clever people we're discussing. And I wish they did because the universe is so rich and fascinating and these moments/characters deserve better!

Okay, but I think you are perhaps elevating the films too much, which my longer post above kind of addresses.  I think we have a tendency to revere some things too much, and in our culture, Star Wars is one of those things that we have put up on a pedestal and look at through rose colored glasses.  I just think it is easier to enjoy it for seeing it for what it is:  a series of fun stories that, yes, have many flaws and HAVE ALWAYS had many flaws, but are still fun nonetheless if we stop holding them to such high standards that even the originals don't really meet.

My perception of Star Wars is different from yours, I believe. I was 8 when TPM came out. ...  So, my whole life, I have always had people putting Star Wars on this pedestal of how rich and fantastic the series is. ...  Like, I dunno. When I finally watched the OT as a teenager I was almost offended by how horrible they were (to me, and at the time).

But see, you pretty much acknowledge that the fact that they are put on a pedestal is somewhat unjustified, right?  The bolded part especially, where you indicate that when you objectively watched the OT, you weren't impressed--quite the opposite.  Doesn't that suggest that, really, when people idolize the films, they've kind of just left their objectivity behind and made the SW universe into something it isn't?  Many in my generation do it simply because of the nostalgia factor.  But many in your generation do it because you've been told to by those who are influenced by the nostalgia factor.  :lol  :dunno:  I like where you say, "I don't believe any of them do it enough justice to justify all the rabid praise the franchise gets. And I keep expecting someone to come out and really blow my mind."  I think that nails it.  The rabid praise isn't justified.  But the thing is, that's okay.  It doesn't have to be black and white of either "this is AMAZING on every level!" or if it falls short of that, "this is an abject failure."  It can be somewhere in the middle, can't it? 

But it's all good.  At the end of the day, I'm just offering my own thoughts, and you're just offering yours.  For me, I can just suspend expectations and enjoy it as some frivolous and flawed fun, and doing so helps me not get bent out of shape when things don't play out on screen the way I want them to.
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Offline The Walrus

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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Last Jedi
« Reply #268 on: December 29, 2017, 05:27:05 PM »
Yeah, Rose described it as tech.  And that was literally the whole point of their excursion to Canto Bight and then their infiltration of Snoke's ship.  They were trying to find the dude who could sneak them onto the ship so they could disable the tech, not to confront Snoke.  And they also explained that they only then had a short window for the fleet to escape after doing so, because once they detected that they were no longer tracking the fleet because it had been disabled, the other ships in Snoke's contingent could turn on their trackers that they were also likely equipped with.  They were pretty obvious that it was a technology, not a force ability.  And I'm not knocking you for missing it--I missed some obvious things in my first viewing as well--we all do.  I'm only saying it was "obvious" to point out that I'm not guessing on the issue and that it was actually spelled out.

Thanks for explaining that - I didn't pick up on that the first time, or I forgot after viewing, whichever. That makes more sense.

But see, you pretty much acknowledge that the fact that they are put on a pedestal is somewhat unjustified, right?  The bolded part especially, where you indicate that when you objectively watched the OT, you weren't impressed--quite the opposite.  Doesn't that suggest that, really, when people idolize the films, they've kind of just left their objectivity behind and made the SW universe into something it isn't?  Many in my generation do it simply because of the nostalgia factor.  But many in your generation do it because you've been told to by those who are influenced by the nostalgia factor.  :lol  :dunno:  I like where you say, "I don't believe any of them do it enough justice to justify all the rabid praise the franchise gets. And I keep expecting someone to come out and really blow my mind."  I think that nails it.  The rabid praise isn't justified.  But the thing is, that's okay.  It doesn't have to be black and white of either "this is AMAZING on every level!" or if it falls short of that, "this is an abject failure."  It can be somewhere in the middle, can't it?

That's a great point, and you're totally right. It's probably just easier for me to gripe about the faults I find in them because they've been put on a pedestal unjustly my whole life. But it's probably a generational thing, since like you said, nostalgia, and I don't have that, and you're right, those older than myself have always raved about it, so what was I to expect? ;) Having said all that though there are so many great things about the films that I feel I've been a bit unfair to them. I should try to view the OT in the context of 1970s filmmaking.

Now tell me why Obi-Wan's force ghost didn't also show up in TLJ.  :biggrin:
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Offline BlackInk

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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Last Jedi
« Reply #269 on: December 30, 2017, 02:44:30 AM »
I do think that is the first film's fault because it set Snoke up as this fearsome baddie.

Yeah, this is sort of where I come down on this. I like TFA a lot, but TLJ sort of undermines the things that the first one tried to set up. On it's own, Snoke just dying isn't that bad, but just the fact that he exists in TFA and has the power he has implied that he was important. I don't have a problem with him dying, I have a problem with it feeling so unceremoneous and ultimately insignificant. Now in retrospect it just feels like our time has been wasted any time Snoke was on screen. He could have died there in that room, but if we knew more about him before that, and if they had built to that moment more, it would have felt more satisfying. But now it just feels like they went "HAHA SUBVERSION, BET YA DIDN'T SEE THAT COMING". To keep the Game of Thrones examples going, the Red Wedding was a huge surprise, but looking back, it had all been building towards it for a long time.

Damn I have so much to say about this movie that I don't say becuase it will be too much. But despite what it might sound like, I do enjoy it. There is some awesome stuff in there too. But fuck Canto Bight.

Offline Cool Chris

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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Last Jedi
« Reply #270 on: December 30, 2017, 05:43:06 PM »
Just got back from the film. Too lazy to read through 8 pages. I liked it a lot. I don't recall feeling this positive a few hours after seeing TFA, and honestly can't remember much from that film at this point beyond the awesomeness of seeing Harrison Ford back in the Han Solo outfit. It feels like a distant memory and a JJ Abrams "yay I get to make a SW movie finally!" TLJ felt too long, but I was never bored. Don't know how this one will endure in my mind, but it's mostly positive now.

Should have added... my my are those some dull, uninspired antagonists. Would have been nice to see Capt Sneers-a-lot do something other than scream "FIRE AT WILL!!!!!!" at a subordinate who probably realizes his job is to fire at will.
« Last Edit: December 30, 2017, 06:10:53 PM by Cool Chris »
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Offline faizoff

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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Last Jedi
« Reply #271 on: January 01, 2018, 09:22:46 AM »
Watched it last night for the second time. Good to watch in a near empty theater while everyone outside is celebrating new years.

After a second viewing, I loved this movie even more. There are things that I wished were done differently/better but all in all still an excellent watch which makes me want to go and watch it again.

Although the light speed jump by the cruiser is an amazing intense scene, I just wished they showed the Rose-Finn fallout a little more convincingly. I mean they're almost about to be executed and are surrounded by whole battalions of storm troopers and Captain Phasma, next thing you know no one but the two of them are there. That and the Rose saving Finn scene really could've been done or executed better personally.

Though when I think about it now, to me the whole side adventure of those two was probably written for them to specifically do something with the plot while we see the Rey-Luke story play out. The arc with Rey, Kylo, Luke and the island felt like it flowed a lot better and felt a lot less forced than Rose-Finn. I was ok on first viewing with Rose and Finn pairing up but I think now I don't see their chemistry work that well. I much prefer the pairing of Rey and Finn in the first movie.

I might check it out one more time hopefully in an Imax non 3D screen if I can find one.
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Offline kaos2900

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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Last Jedi
« Reply #272 on: January 02, 2018, 06:46:35 AM »
I also had my second viewing this weekend. A couple of theories changed.

1. I think Snoke knew Kylo was going to kill him. The whole Sith mantra is built around the apprentice destroying the master at some point. And while Snoke seemed powerful he looked like he was close to kicking the bucket.
2. I think Kylo was telling the truth about Rey's parent, BUT I think he was wrong. He said he saw them and I think Snoke put that vision in his head to help get Rey on his ship.

I actually enjoyed the Canto Blight section more. It was just fun, maybe out of place in the film but still enjoyable. Felt like an episode from Clone Wars.

Offline cramx3

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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Last Jedi
« Reply #273 on: January 02, 2018, 08:34:18 AM »
Yeah, knowing the character’s fates doesn’t lessen the amount I care. If it did then some real-life based movies would lose their value, or no movies would have any re-watchability.

I dislike Rogue One because I think the characters are just straight up bad, not because I knew they’d die.

This, exactly for me.  THe characters I found little interest in, I don't think the movie did much to make me care for them, so when they all died as expected (knowing this didn't ruin the movie, but it didn't help), I just shrugged and felt "Finally it happened" and didn't have any emotional attachment.  So that's the main reason why I felt the movie wasn't good.  Otherwise, from an action standpoint, it was fine.

Offline gmillerdrake

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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Last Jedi
« Reply #274 on: January 02, 2018, 10:24:50 AM »
1. I think Snoke knew Kylo was going to kill him. The whole Sith mantra is built around the apprentice destroying the master at some point. And while Snoke seemed powerful he looked like he was close to kicking the bucket.

I left my second viewing thinking the same thing. Especially since I paid close attention to Snoke's dialogue in that scene and at first watch it appears he's narrating to describe Ren killing Rey....but IMO he's knowingly narrating his own death...particularly him saying "I know his every thought"...."I cannot be betrayed"...."he now turns the saber to strike down his TRUE enemy"..... I think it's along the lines of Obi Wan telling Vadar if you strike me down I become more powerful than you can imagine.....only from the 'dark side' aspect this time.

Snoke's body looks like it's been pieced together before anyway....even still in a bit of decay....so...I wouldn't be surprised to see that character again although I doubt they'd do that.
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Offline The Walrus

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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Last Jedi
« Reply #275 on: January 02, 2018, 10:34:52 AM »
That's an interesting theory but the look of shock on Snoke's face makes it hard for me to believe that he knew Kylo was going to do that. Snoke's expression to me read like 'oh I done fucked up' more than 'good, good, let the hate fill you' - but I admit I could be wrong  :)
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Offline gmillerdrake

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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Last Jedi
« Reply #276 on: January 02, 2018, 10:48:38 AM »
That's an interesting theory but the look of shock on Snoke's face makes it hard for me to believe that he knew Kylo was going to do that. Snoke's expression to me read like 'oh I done fucked up' more than 'good, good, let the hate fill you' - but I admit I could be wrong  :)

I'm sure that it's a LONg shot theory....it was just interesting the second watch how Snoke's dialogue spoke more to Ren's relationship to Snoke than Rey, especially the 'true' enemy line. It'd be a way for them to rebound from the rather abrupt ending to a character we all assumed would have this detailed backstory though, if he were to show up again. But I think the safe bet is he's dead and we won't see him again. 
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Offline lordxizor

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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Last Jedi
« Reply #277 on: January 02, 2018, 12:54:37 PM »
I don't think Snoke is necessary at all at this point. I hope he stays dead.

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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Last Jedi
« Reply #278 on: January 02, 2018, 01:02:21 PM »
I don't think Snoke is necessary at all at this point. I hope he stays dead.

I don't see how they could bring him back without having to spend a considerable amount of time explaining it all.

I imagine in order to deal with Carrie Fishers death....there will be a considerable time jump (3..4..5? yrs) to where Ren is even more powerful and feared.....and Rey is equally powerful as a now Jedi. They wouldn't 'need' Snoke any longer.
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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Last Jedi
« Reply #279 on: January 03, 2018, 01:37:59 AM »
My main reason for not completely dismissing that Snoke is still in play is that at the end of the movie Rey and Kylo are connected again. Admitedly, it’s never specified if Snoke actively connected them on each occasion or if he just established the connection and then stepped back. But that’s why I’m having some difficulties just accepting his death.