Author Topic: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Rise of Skywalker (oh, and The Mandalorian)  (Read 86339 times)

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Online Adami

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I've never heard of that. I am not even sure I get the reasoning, other than do something different.

From a narrative point of view. You meet Vader and Luke and so forth in IV. In V you learn Vader is Luke's dad  :o and then do the prequels as a kind of way too long flashback to learn more about Vader after you already see the person he becomes, then back to VI with the full knowledge of who he is and his arc.

It's not how I'd watch it, but I get the logic.
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Offline Cool Chris

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Explained that way, it makes sense, though I still don't see any value in it.

Whenever my daughter is curious about movie she looks for trailers on YouTube. So we found original trailers from 1977. Trailers have come a long way since then, as has the film industry as a whole. But man, those trailers are awful.
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Offline bosk1

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Yeah, what Adami said, plus the fact that at the time that order was proposed by fans, we only had the PT and OT, and I think most would agree that VI is a better "ending" to the saga than III if you ended with that.  VI feels climactic.  Seeing that, and then going back and doing I-III makes the ending feel kinda..."meh, the story was good, then then took a serious decline in quality over the last half."  And VI as an ending fits tonally with both the OT and PT, IMO, so it flows well from either V or III.
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Offline The Walrus

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Chris, you might want to think about a modified machete order for the OT/PT (IV, V, I, II, III, VI, treating the OT as a flashback between V and VI).

That's... different. Is that a thing? Or an idea you came up with?

It's a thing. I personally prefer my own version which is Episodes IV, V and IV and call it a day.

You are a smart, smart man.

I mean, you're a doctor, I think, so like... yeah. But that confirms it.  :lol :biggrin:
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Offline bosk1

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Since we don't have a "dammitkatt" emoticon...
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The "Machete Order" is IV-V-II-III-VI, omitting Ep I completely and using II-III as the big flashback.  The modified Machete Order suggested by bosk includes Ep I, since the idea is to watch all of them.  I'm sure most would agree that if you're going with the Machete concept (which I like, but have never tried), then omitting Ep I is the way to go.

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Yeah, but his basic argument for leaving I out is basically:  "It sucks.  And you can skip it and legitimately not have lost ANY important plot details whatsoever and wan't be scratching your head in any later moments in the saga wondering 'when did THAT happen?'  Oh, and it sucks."  While he isn't wrong, there are still reasons to watch I.  Maul is a great character, even granting the "criminally underutilzed" argument.  And a lot of people seem to enjoy the pod race.  And Qi-Gon is at least in the discussion for top 3 jedi in the PT.  And now that we have VIII, the slavery arc also feels more contextual.
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Offline Stadler

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That's how I watched it most recently, with my daughter (well, we still have Ep. 6 to go).  It really works.  Read that article that Orbert posted and it makes it a lot clearer. 


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I like the Machete concept, but I also agree that Episode I is worth watching, especially if the idea is to watch them all anyway.  I was just clarifying that this isn't just something that bosk pulled out of his... um, brain.  The Machete Order is not new.

There are pros and cons to it.  There are heroes on both sides.  Turmoil has engulfed the Galactic Republic.

Offline Cool Chris

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I cannot get behind this idea at all, but I cannot articulate why. Maybe the differences in the film making techniques (70s models and miniatures, and 90s CGI) would be too jarring.
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Offline bosk1

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I get what you are saying.  But if you haven't, at least read the article so you can see it articulated in great detail why it works, and then decide. 
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Offline Kotowboy

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I'm admittedly no Star Wars fan... but I didn't hate The Last Jedi or The Rise Of Skywalker.

I don't care about CANON so I just watched them individually on their own merits and - with TROS - I had a fun 2 hours watching a well crafted and acted science fiction adventure.

That said - I still stand by my claim that JJ Abrams Star Trek films are overall better than his Star Wars films. And that the Kelvin trilogy is far superior to both the Prequels

and the Sequels. Star Trek 2009 was great fun with just a few script issues but nothing obnoxious. Beyond was a really fun proper Star Trek film and Into Darkness really isn't the

absolute disaster everyone claims it is.

FURTHERMORE - If Disney ever decide to release Blu rays of the Theatrical Versions of the Original Trilogy ( remastered obvs ) - i'd probably get those just to have them.




EDIT : And finally I don't blame JJ *at all* for TROS. After Solo tanked and fans hated The Last Jedi - Kathleen Kennedy probably took JJ aside and told him to

make the Most Star Wars Star Wars that ever Star Warsed. On a tentpole movie that big - i'd be SHOCKED if Disney weren't doing uncredited re-writes left right and centre.


Offline Cool Chris

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I get what you are saying.  But if you haven't, at least read the article so you can see it articulated in great detail why it works, and then decide. 

I started to - it was too long to hold my interest, but I bookmarked it for later - and while I appreciate the effort the authors put in to it, I don't really want to put that much analysis in to it for myself. I also know those movies by heart (4-6 anyway) so I think that skews my perception as well. It would be interesting if I could have selective amnesia about the saga and then visit this idea with a fresh mind.
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Offline kaos2900

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Finally finished the new season of Clone Wars. Wow those last 4 episodes were some of the best Star Wars ever. Such a fantastic end to the series. Movie quality.

Offline gmillerdrake

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Wow those last 4 episodes were some of the best Star Wars ever. Such a fantastic end to the series. Movie quality.

I completely agree.....they were incredible. I still can't get over the score alone.....much less the content.
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Offline kaos2900

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Wow those last 4 episodes were some of the best Star Wars ever. Such a fantastic end to the series. Movie quality.

I completely agree.....they were incredible. I still can't get over the score alone.....much less the content.

Great point on the score! Did a fantastic job at setting the tone and ramping up the tension.

Offline TheOutlawXanadu

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I went down a Wikipedia rabbit hole the other day and ended up reading about the sequels. There's actually a pretty well done article about the films and their backgrounds that I'd recommend to anyone who is curious (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Wars_sequel_trilogy). Some pieces of information that jumped out at me (if they are to be believed):
  • Return of the Jedi was a bit of a hodgepodge, kind of like Rise of Skywalker. Leia was made to be Luke's sister near the end of the writing process, and the Emperor was not originally slated to appear until Episode IX. I found this interesting because the sequels get a lot of flack for not being planned out properly, which I'm not disagreeing with, but the originals didn't always follow the project plan themselves.
  • Lucas was originally going to direct VII, and he was actually quite involved in sharing story outlines with Lucasfilm that he expected they would use. However, those things never came to fruition, obviously. I wonder what 7-9 would have looked like if they actually used the full outlines.
  • One of Lucas's ideas that actually made it into the sequels was Luke. It seems like this is one of the few examples where everyone involved was on the same page, including J.J. and Johnson, which is kind of funny because Luke is one of the most controversial aspects of the sequels.
  • "According to J. J. Abrams and Chris Terrio, the trilogy's core theme is about the new generation learning from the mistakes committed by the previous generation, akin to the children of the revolutionaries who fought in the War of 1812 years after their parents fought with George Washington in the American Revolutionary War."

We can argue all day about which Star Wars movies are good or bad, but I think you'd be hard pressed to deny that their behind the scenes aren't fascinating.
« Last Edit: June 24, 2020, 01:02:09 PM by TheOutlawXanadu »
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Offline gmillerdrake

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I went down a Wikipedia rabbit hole the other day and ended up reading about the sequels. There's actually a pretty well done article about the films and their backgrounds that I'd recommend to anyone who is curious (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Wars_sequel_trilogy). Some pieces of information that jumped out at me (if they are to be believed):
  • Return of the Jedi was a bit of a hodgepodge, kind of like Rise of Skywalker. Leia was made to be Luke's sister near the end of the writing process, and the Emperor was not originally slated to appear until Episode IX. I found this interesting because the sequels get a lot of flack for not being planned out properly, which I'm not disagreeing with, but the originals didn't always follow the project plan themselves.
  • Lucas was originally going to direct VII, and he was actually quite involved in sharing story outlines with Lucasfilm that he expected they would use. However, those things never came to fruition, obviously. I wonder what 7-9 would have looked like if they actually used the full outlines.
  • One of Lucas's ideas that actually made it into the sequels was Luke. It seems like this is one of the few examples where everyone involved was on the same page, including J.J. and Johnson, which is kind of funny because Luke is one of the most controversial aspects of the sequels.
  • "According to J. J. Abrams and Chris Terrio, the trilogy's core theme is about the new generation learning from the mistakes committed by the previous generation, akin to the children of the revolutionaries who fought in the War of 1812 years after their parents fought with George Washington in the American Revolutionary War."

We can argue all day about which Star Wars movies are good or bad, but I think you'd be hard pressed to deny that their behind the scenes aren't fascinating.


I mean.....the OT had 30+ years to build up 'lore' and be romanticized by the fans. The sequel series (and prequel for that matter) never stood a chance at matching the love the OT has earned. BUT.....if you sit and watch those movies and try to remove the nostalgia and sentiment from it and just watch them as a trilogy set of movies.....they're not all that great. But it's OK.....they're more than just movies and that's whats awesome about them. It's just, the criticism that the sequels in particular have received is a little silly IMO especially if the main argument is comparing them to the OT. I'll argue any and every day of the week (and have) that TLJ is the best actually SW Movie that has been made yet (R1 a close 2nd)  if you want to get down to the bare bones of it all.


All I know is that I've been please to hear the rumors about Disney and Lucasfilm and what's been going on the past few months with who has been relieved of their 'creative' power and who has been put in charge. I think this next wave of the SW universe.....with the clean slate and the people that they're having plan and build it.....is going to be pretty fun to watch.
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Offline kaos2900

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What rumors are you referring to?

Also, we started watching Resistance. Easily the worst of the animated shows. Just watched Episode 6 and it's finally getting interesting. We're going to finish the show since it's only 2 seasons but I'm already looking forward to it being done.

Offline gmillerdrake

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What rumors are you referring to?

Kathleen Kennedy has basically been stripped of all creative power. Her decisions with the sequels were horrific and the Disney brass has basically put her in a corner and after the success and back to form nature of 'the Mandalorian'.....they've given most creative control to Dave Filoni and Jon Favreau, along with George Lucas to plan out this next phase of content (movies/TV/Comics)  They've also tapped Kevin Fiege to help map it all out ala the way he did with the Marvel universe.

This is all info. gleaned from articles and youtube posts as Disney isn't / doesn't do news releases or anything......but, there are so many article's and youtube posts that say these same things that it's a consensus it seems.
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Offline Shadow Ninja 2.0

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Honestly, those rumors sound like a lot of wishful thinking to me.
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Offline gmillerdrake

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Honestly, those rumors sound like a lot of wishful thinking to me.

Could be. Itd certainly be the way to do it though if Disney was serious about SW. if they werent so prevalent online Id dismiss them but they seem to be everywhere.
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Online Adami

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I know the Kevin Feige one has been debunked.

Hes talked about producing a single Star Wars thing but not taking over the franchise.
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Offline gmillerdrake

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I know the Kevin Feige one has been debunked.

Hes talked about producing a single Star Wars thing but not taking over the franchise.

I didnt think he was taking over the franchise, but hed be one of the ones who helped map out the next phase of content?

Honestly, as long as the Kathleen Kennedy rumor is true SW will be fine.
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Offline Cool Chris

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Kathleen Kennedy has basically been stripped of all creative power. Her decisions with the sequels were horrific and the Disney brass has basically put her in a corner....

What metrics are they using? I've said this here jokingly before, but it's a strange world when a film with a $275 million budget rakes in $1+ billion at the box office and it's considered a failure. I know there is much more going on in the SW universe than Eps 7-9, but from a purely financial aspect, imagine having your film make $1+ billion and your bosses say "yeah, you really don't have a clue what you are doing..." And I don't follow this stuff, but had no idea her control was that great.
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Offline gmillerdrake

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Kathleen Kennedy has basically been stripped of all creative power. Her decisions with the sequels were horrific and the Disney brass has basically put her in a corner....

What metrics are they using? I've said this here jokingly before, but it's a strange world when a film with a $275 million budget rakes in $1+ billion at the box office and it's considered a failure. I know there is much more going on in the SW universe than Eps 7-9, but from a purely financial aspect, imagine having your film make $1+ billion and your bosses say "yeah, you really don't have a clue what you are doing..." And I don't follow this stuff, but had no idea her control was that great.

The haphazard method to producing three films with no real cohesion between them is the stinker. Monetarily, you or I could make a SW movie with the budget behind it and itd make money. But theres a large opinion out there that she micromanaged the shit out of the three movies and nixed many great ideas. From what I can glean I dont think shes very well liked inside Disney.
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Offline Cool Chris

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I totally get it when viewed from the creative side. Sometimes it is more than the dollars and cents of a film when you are at the helm of a franchise like Star Wars. But regardless of box office, I thought the films were generally well-received, or at least not despised. And again I don't follow this, but I had no idea about her management style or any sense of dislike from her coworkers.
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I think Kennedy has really sunk Star Wars much like Titanic and I feel the biggest difference between the SWU and the MCU for example is the latter has Kevin Feige. Someone who oversees everything and has an idea of how to play things out and release individual puzzle pieces that work on their own but also when combined the whole picture is something great.

You can talk about how the movies haven't quite lived up to the hopes and expectations. In my own opinion Force Awakens is the only Disney SW movie I genuinely like and the rest has various different issues, but just setting aside my own opinions and looking at it a bit more neutrally, Last Jedi was very divisive among fans and you could argue Rise of Skywalker was even worse in that regard. The biggest issue whether you like the films or not was the lack of planning and it's just very clear when watching these films that Rian Johnson made choices in TLJ that went against what JJ had planned in TFA, and then when JJ came back for RoS you could tell by the choices made in that film. It's like a tag team challenge with people wanting completely different things.

Outside of how the movies went there's also been a ton of mistakes made behind the scenes. Solo having to switch director mid-filming. Rian Johnson getting a trilogy before TLJ and then having that pulled after a lot of the criticism towards TLJ. Then giving a trilogy to the GoT guys which also went away shortly after the enormous backlash to the last season of GoT. Kennedy is someone who in the past has been known for making the right calls and getting the right people into projects and now that track record looks pretty bad. You can have bad luck and you might have to make changes but in this case there's been way too many situations like that in a short amount of time.

Offline Stadler

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Kathleen Kennedy has basically been stripped of all creative power. Her decisions with the sequels were horrific and the Disney brass has basically put her in a corner....

What metrics are they using? I've said this here jokingly before, but it's a strange world when a film with a $275 million budget rakes in $1+ billion at the box office and it's considered a failure. I know there is much more going on in the SW universe than Eps 7-9, but from a purely financial aspect, imagine having your film make $1+ billion and your bosses say "yeah, you really don't have a clue what you are doing..." And I don't follow this stuff, but had no idea her control was that great.

I think the idea is to make films that make a billion globally, and set up at least two films that do the same.  I'm a Star Wars fan boy - the first is one of my favorite films of all time, and I regularly watch the original three - but it's just so... diluted now.  I watched the Force Awakens and I was like, meh.    Han dying didn't help, but I could've gotten my arms around that.  I watched Rogue One and really liked it, but after the shit reviews of Solo, and the haphazard way they seemed to vascillate on Rey, I haven't seen either of the last two, nor the Mandalorian.   I will eventually, but there's no... BUZZ to me.   I want a film that seems "can't miss", and frankly, when most of the spoilers are about how they WALKED BACK that middle film, that doesn't scream WATCH ME, BITCHES!   

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Kathleen Kennedy has basically been stripped of all creative power. Her decisions with the sequels were horrific and the Disney brass has basically put her in a corner....

What metrics are they using? I've said this here jokingly before, but it's a strange world when a film with a $275 million budget rakes in $1+ billion at the box office and it's considered a failure. I know there is much more going on in the SW universe than Eps 7-9, but from a purely financial aspect, imagine having your film make $1+ billion and your bosses say "yeah, you really don't have a clue what you are doing..." And I don't follow this stuff, but had no idea her control was that great.

I think that's a good point of view, but not one shared by studios. It's missing the context they look for.

This wasn't Rogue One or Solo. This was the final Skywalker saga movie. Theoretically, they should've been able to film George Lucas reading the script on the toilet and make 2-3 billion dollars. This is pretty soon after the end of the Infinity Stone saga (one not nearly as deep in the culture lexicon) made almost 3 billion dollars.

So a Star Wars movie making $1+ billion on a $275 million budget is great, the final one in the Skywalker saga doing it isn't quite as impressive.

Keep in mind that Joker, Captain Marvel, Spider-Man: Far From Home, Iron Man 3, Incredibles 2, and Beauty of the Beast....among almost 30 other films made more money than it. I think that's why it's considered a disappointment.
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Offline TheOutlawXanadu

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I think Kennedy has really sunk Star Wars much like Titanic and I feel the biggest difference between the SWU and the MCU for example is the latter has Kevin Feige. Someone who oversees everything and has an idea of how to play things out and release individual puzzle pieces that work on their own but also when combined the whole picture is something great.

You can talk about how the movies haven't quite lived up to the hopes and expectations. In my own opinion Force Awakens is the only Disney SW movie I genuinely like and the rest has various different issues, but just setting aside my own opinions and looking at it a bit more neutrally, Last Jedi was very divisive among fans and you could argue Rise of Skywalker was even worse in that regard. The biggest issue whether you like the films or not was the lack of planning and it's just very clear when watching these films that Rian Johnson made choices in TLJ that went against what JJ had planned in TFA, and then when JJ came back for RoS you could tell by the choices made in that film. It's like a tag team challenge with people wanting completely different things.

Outside of how the movies went there's also been a ton of mistakes made behind the scenes. Solo having to switch director mid-filming. Rian Johnson getting a trilogy before TLJ and then having that pulled after a lot of the criticism towards TLJ. Then giving a trilogy to the GoT guys which also went away shortly after the enormous backlash to the last season of GoT. Kennedy is someone who in the past has been known for making the right calls and getting the right people into projects and now that track record looks pretty bad. You can have bad luck and you might have to make changes but in this case there's been way too many situations like that in a short amount of time.

I think that this is a great summary, and I am pretty much on board. However, I would like to add one caveat: The Star Wars fan base. While Disney has failed spectacularly in many areas, I also think that they have a real dumpster fire on their hands when it comes to the audience. There is a unique combination of different age groups, different expectations, and wildly inconsistent outrage that is almost impossible to navigate. For example, there was a loud group of people that disliked VII because it was too similar to the old movies, and then an even louder group that disliked VIII because it was too dissimilar. Maybe I have become a pessimistic old fogey, but I often wonder whether the fine line is too fine.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2020, 08:56:28 AM by TheOutlawXanadu »
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Offline gmillerdrake

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I think that's why it's considered a disappointment.

What's disappointing as a fan is finding out after the fact that there was never a cohesive single vision mapped out for the three films. I know that Lucas back in the day didn't have or do that.....but there is literally no excuse for Disney not to have hired and have in place the right writers/directors etc etc for them to have sit down back in the beginning and have the whole sequel trilogy mapped out to where it was one vision.


That being said.....and for the 'complaining' I seem to be doing......I liked all three of the films. I just think they missed an opportunity to do something special.
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Offline lordxizor

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I think that's why it's considered a disappointment.

What's disappointing as a fan is finding out after the fact that there was never a cohesive single vision mapped out for the three films. I know that Lucas back in the day didn't have or do that.....but there is literally no excuse for Disney not to have hired and have in place the right writers/directors etc etc for them to have sit down back in the beginning and have the whole sequel trilogy mapped out to where it was one vision.


That being said.....and for the 'complaining' I seem to be doing......I liked all three of the films. I just think they missed an opportunity to do something special.
I pretty much completely agree with this post.

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I think that's why it's considered a disappointment.

What's disappointing as a fan is finding out after the fact that there was never a cohesive single vision mapped out for the three films. I know that Lucas back in the day didn't have or do that.....but there is literally no excuse for Disney not to have hired and have in place the right writers/directors etc etc for them to have sit down back in the beginning and have the whole sequel trilogy mapped out to where it was one vision.


That being said.....and for the 'complaining' I seem to be doing......I liked all three of the films. I just think they missed an opportunity to do something special.
I pretty much completely agree with this post.

I agree with TOX....there is an element of "damned if you do, damned if you don't" with the fan base of this franchise.

I agree with GMD as well.  I enjoyed all the movies.  Had a lot of fun watching them.  But yes...a missed opportunity for something greater there was.
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Offline kaos2900

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I still feel that if they simply added a couple of extra minutes of details around the Emperor and his return in Rise of Skywalker that the film would have been significantly better. Maybe they plan on addressing that in a future show?