Author Topic: Star Wars Discussion Thread v. Rise of Skywalker / Mandalorian (merged)  (Read 247057 times)

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Offline Orbert

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I think it affects our opinions, whether we want them to or not.  If I watch a movie (or a trilogy) I might think of a few things I would've done differently to make it better.  Doesn't matter whether I enjoyed it overall, hated it, or anything in between.  I tend to think of things that didn't work in my opinion, and how I would've fixed them.

If I later find out that the issues I had were actually brought up behind the scenes, or were deliberate choices, or were the result of poor guidance from the suits, or any number of things, I feel vindicated, sure, but mostly I somehow feel even worse about the movie (or trilogy) because it has these issues that I now know could have been avoided.

I don't know if that's how it works for most people, but that's how it works with me.

Offline bosk1

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Yeah, I don't let it bother me too much, but it definitely does factor in.  Bottom line is, if I enjoy a film, I'm not going to STOP enjoying it because of something like that.  But I do enjoy it less.
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Offline ronnibran

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Going into the new Star Wars I had The Force Awakens as my second favorite SW movie (only behind A New Hope).  Having seen the new one a couple of times and having plenty of time to digest....  Even The Force Awakens has slipped some spots.  (due to how much I was disappointed with TROS).

The best part about TFA was all of the interesting stories it was developing.  That unfortunately never went anywhere...  Can't think of a good story or legit bad guy?  No problem, we'll just bring someone back from the dead.  <couple of months later>  Oh there was backlash as it didn't make sense.  No problem, he was actually a clone.  Ok...

I truly complain about this in fun (me and some others at work pick this apart regularly).  I realize this is somewhat of a golden age of Star Wars and I'm happy with getting anything new.  I just don't think the sequel trilogy ended up as good as it could have.  I used to blame Rian Johnson, now I don't know who to blame lol. 

Offline Adami

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So apparently Rey’s dad was a clone of Palpatine that was deemed unworthy.
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Offline bosk1

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...  <couple of months later>  Oh there was backlash as it didn't make sense.  No problem, he was actually a clone.  Ok...

See, I don't get this.  It was right there in the movie.  I mean, they didn't say "clone."  But he said he died, and they showed the cloning tanks, so we were supposed to connect those dots.  Not everything needs to be spelled right out.

I realize this is somewhat of a golden age of Star Wars and I'm happy with getting anything new. 

That's interesting.  I hadn't really thought about it in those terms, but I guess you're right.

So apparently Rey’s dad was a clone of Palpatine that was deemed unworthy.

Oh, wow.  That's interesting.
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Offline Polarbear

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Ok.

So the chain of events goes something like this:

- Palpy dies on the second Death Star
- Sith Eternal somehow put his spirit in a bottle, and revive him in a new clone body.
- Palpy puts in motion the events that lead into the formation of the First Order decades later.
- Palpy and his pals on Exegol conjure up Snoke, and plant him into the leadership of The First Order so that they do exactly what they want.
- The First Order are unknowing stooges for the Sith Eternal, and they get rid of the New Republic for them, and clear the playing field for Palpatine to take over again

So that is the tip of the iceberg. That is so convoluted, but kinda sorta makes sense. But I agree how the sequel trilogy is a hot mess due to the lack of planning. And Rey's dad is a failed clone of Palpatine?! :huh:

Offline The Walrus

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...  <couple of months later>  Oh there was backlash as it didn't make sense.  No problem, he was actually a clone.  Ok...

See, I don't get this.  It was right there in the movie.  I mean, they didn't say "clone."  But he said he died, and they showed the cloning tanks, so we were supposed to connect those dots.  Not everything needs to be spelled right out.

Bosk I really get annoyed when you talk as if people who have these complaints weren't paying attention or something. Not everything needs to be spelled out but if you're going to gloss over critical information about one of the franchise's biggest characters only to reveal it in detail months later then you did a poor job of bringing that information to light in the film. In the movie, Palpatine says "I have died many times." He doesn't say, "I died on the Death Star, and this is a clone of myself," and makes it clear and explicit. So confusion is understandable. The cloning tanks they showed had Snokes in them. The way I connected the dots was that he was cloning Snokes, and Snokes were either botched clones of his or something else entirely. But again, I am stupid and don't have a very big brain so my feeble mind could not connect these apparently very obvious dots. I don't pay attention much good. Rant over
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Offline Adami

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Yea, the cloning tanks were definitely filled with Snokes and he very quickly points out that he made Snoke. So associating the clones just with Snoke seems reasonable.
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Offline The Walrus

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No, Adami, it was right there in the movie, why weren't you paying attention?
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Offline Adami

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No, Adami, it was right there in the movie, why weren't you paying attention?

Sorry  :'( I admit I was a little distracted by Kylo being all thirsty or whatever the kids are calling it these days.
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Offline bosk1

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Bosk I really get annoyed when you talk as if people who have these complaints weren't paying attention or something.

Sorry, let me rephrase and dial it back a bit (but not entirely).  I guess what I am reacting to is the implication that they simply retconned that explanation in months after the fact.  Because it wasn't.  It was there.  Granted, it was not clearly spelled out.  Maybe that is a flaw.  But maybe it was by design.  I think most (but not all) fans who know SW well and geek out over it would have reasonably come away from the film with the breadcrumbs that were there and thought something along the lines of, "So Palpatine was most likely cloned after being killed on the second Death Star.  But they left it open enough where it could have been something else, related to the Sith Eternal dark side magic.  But they sure seemed to be pointing toward cloning."  Again, maybe it was just sloppy writing.  Maybe not.  But, again, not everything needs to be spelled out, and I tend to think it was on purpose that it was left slightly vague so that, although there was enough there to draw that conclusion, there was also enough to leave it open ended and have people wondering. 

Sorry for implying that anyone who didn't come to that conclusion is somehow deficient.  That's not nice, and my fault for going that far.  Again, let me dial it back and point out that it's really the suggestion of retconning when it isn't a retcon that I was reacting to. 
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Offline The Walrus

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Again, I agree. Not everything needs to be spelled out. But there is very big difference between thoughtfully and methodically planning out how those breadcrumbs should come together to make the revelation clear for the viewer, and just kind of throwing them in and hoping they'll make the connection and then having to re-explain the whole thing months after the film has been seen by most people, which tells me they failed in their mission to communicate that in the film, which tells me once again that this movie's planning was not handled well, which tells me... well, you know where I'm going with this  :lol  :tup
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Offline T-ski

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I asked Disney via twitter to refund my money for the debacle that was the last trilogy.

still waiting for a response.
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Offline TheOutlawXanadu

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Yea, the cloning tanks were definitely filled with Snokes and he very quickly points out that he made Snoke. So associating the clones just with Snoke seems reasonable.

That was the connection I made too. Considering the Emperor was plugged into a bunch of tubes and stuff, I figured there was some weird explanation for him being alive, but I didn't think he was necessarily a clone. I guess the ultimate reason behind his resurrection doesn't really affect ROS one way or another, but it is definitely another tally in the "Disney was just yolo'ing it" column. :lol
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Offline Adami

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Also, since the emperor used the force to literally take his consciousness out of his body and move it across the universe (which I have big problems with) then why couldn't he just do that before Rey killed him?
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Offline TheOutlawXanadu

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Also, since the emperor used the force to literally take his consciousness out of his body and move it across the universe (which I have big problems with) then why couldn't he just do that before Rey killed him?

If I had to guess, he was probably too weak to do it this time around. But it's a very fair question.
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Offline Adami

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Also, since the emperor used the force to literally take his consciousness out of his body and move it across the universe (which I have big problems with) then why couldn't he just do that before Rey killed him?

If I had to guess, he was probably too weak to do it this time around. But it's a very fair question.

He was actively destroying an entire fleet of ships while taunting Rey and fighting her at the same time.
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Offline The Walrus

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That ship lightning stuff has to be the most OP thing we've ever seen in the cinematic universe right? I couldn't help but laugh at the absurd power on display there. It was so anime
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Offline bosk1

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For sure.
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Offline Podaar

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That ship lightning stuff has to be the most OP thing we've ever seen in the cinematic universe right? I couldn't help but laugh at the absurd power on display there. It was so anime

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Offline soupytwist

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Emogi review of the trilogy....

Me walking out the cinema after The Force Awakens  ;D
Me walking out the cinema after Last Jedi  :smiley:
Me walking out the cinema after Rise of Skywalker  ???


Offline bosk1

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That ship lightning stuff has to be the most OP thing we've ever seen in the cinematic universe right? I couldn't help but laugh at the absurd power on display there. It was so anime



Well, yeah, but I think the point is that in Star Wars, it came out of nowhere.  It wasn't just a "new" force power, which would be fine.  It was many, many orders of magnitude beyond anything we have ever seen, and no attempt at justifying it was given.  In Infinity War, that magnitude of power has actually been talked about and shown in discussions of the infinity stones.  That was very consistent in universe. 
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Offline The Walrus

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I was indeed referring to Star Wars. It was so obnoxiously out of nowhere and far beyond anything we've ever seen before. The part with Kylo Ren stopping a ship with the Force was already like "whoa" levels of Force-wielding we'd never seen before but Palpatine came out with a Dragon Ball Z move in the end  :lol

But I did almost pee a little when I saw Thanos do that in IMAX.
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Offline Podaar

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Yeah, I should have read more carefully. When Katt wrote "the most OP thing we've ever seen in the cinematic universe ", I read it as "the most OP thing we've ever seen in cinema." I thought it would be funny to show the most OP moment I could think of.

My bad.
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Offline The Walrus

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That is a fantastic GIF though.  :tup
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Offline gmillerdrake

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Haven’t had the chance to catch the new Clone Wars yet....still have a couple episodes left to go on the rewatch.

But, the boys and I did start the rewatch of ‘Rebels’ also. Man....I forgot how cool this series was. So well done.

What’s very evident in watching these two series is that it’s a crime that Dave Filoni wasn’t more involved or directly involved in the new trilogy. He ‘gets’ the Star Wars universe. I wish they’d give him a movie or trilogy to do on his own. I guarantee it’d be incredible.
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Offline kaos2900

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Haven’t had the chance to catch the new Clone Wars yet....still have a couple episodes left to go on the rewatch.

But, the boys and I did start the rewatch of ‘Rebels’ also. Man....I forgot how cool this series was. So well done.

What’s very evident in watching these two series is that it’s a crime that Dave Filoni wasn’t more involved or directly involved in the new trilogy. He ‘gets’ the Star Wars universe. I wish they’d give him a movie or trilogy to do on his own. I guarantee it’d be incredible.

We're about done with season 2 of Rebels and 100% agree. I'm guessing there's another show in the works.

Offline gmillerdrake

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Haven’t had the chance to catch the new Clone Wars yet....still have a couple episodes left to go on the rewatch.

But, the boys and I did start the rewatch of ‘Rebels’ also. Man....I forgot how cool this series was. So well done.

What’s very evident in watching these two series is that it’s a crime that Dave Filoni wasn’t more involved or directly involved in the new trilogy. He ‘gets’ the Star Wars universe. I wish they’d give him a movie or trilogy to do on his own. I guarantee it’d be incredible.

We're about done with season 2 of Rebels and 100% agree. I'm guessing there's another show in the works.

I believe they’re teasing a Rebels S5. With the way they ended the series it’d be pretty ‘easy’ to get another Season or two. Especially if Filoni is involved.
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Offline TheOutlawXanadu

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Also, since the emperor used the force to literally take his consciousness out of his body and move it across the universe (which I have big problems with) then why couldn't he just do that before Rey killed him?

If I had to guess, he was probably too weak to do it this time around. But it's a very fair question.

He was actively destroying an entire fleet of ships while taunting Rey and fighting her at the same time.

Yea... I got nothing. My natural inclination is to try and make sense of things but there probably isn't any sense to be had here.

That ship lightning stuff has to be the most OP thing we've ever seen in the cinematic universe right? I couldn't help but laugh at the absurd power on display there. It was so anime

The sequel trilogy definitely had some Dragon Ball Z moments, like the lightning stuff in ROS and Rey powering up so much that rocks were flying around in TLJ. :lol
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Offline Cool Chris

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To me the Star Wars Sequel trilogy is one of the biggest Hollywood mysteries ever. Speaking from first hand knowledge, Disney plans, analyzes and scrutinizes everything from how many strands of hair on Elsa’s head to the Pantone color of Goofy’s socks and yet they didn’t put together a unified plan/vision and decided to “wing it” for the biggest franchise in move history. It’s baffling to me.

The Force Awakens:
Budget: $306 million
Box office: $2.068 billion

The Last Jedi:
Budget: $200–317 million
Box office: $1.333 billion

Rise of Skywalker:
Budget: $275 million
Box office: $1.073 billion

I wish my employer could be so baffling. Joking aside, I do get what you are saying.

Completely agree. The biggest flaw of the sequel trilogy is the lack of unified vision.

It is nice when a series has that unified vision. Kingdom of the Crystal Skull looks, sounds, and feels like it is part of the IJ saga despite a 20 year gap between it and the last film. . 
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Offline gmillerdrake

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It has happened.....

https://www.slashfilm.com/rosario-dawson-ahsoka-mandalorian/


I've always liked Dawson as an actress..... Not keen on her political stances but as long as she does justice for Ahsoka then I can get past that.

S2 filming had ended recently so I'm wondering just how much she will appear in the season.....but it bodes well for S3 or even a potential Ahsoka series.
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Offline TheOutlawXanadu

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I watched ROS over the weekend, which was my second time. A couple of random observations:

Yea, the cloning tanks were definitely filled with Snokes and he very quickly points out that he made Snoke. So associating the clones just with Snoke seems reasonable.

On second viewing, I didn't notice anything that pointed to the Emperor 100% being a clone, but some of the hints and visual imagery did line up with that idea. I'm not saying it's great writing or anything, but rather that... OK, sure.

That ship lightning stuff has to be the most OP thing we've ever seen in the cinematic universe right? I couldn't help but laugh at the absurd power on display there. It was so anime

I had forgotten that right before the DBZ / OP lightning beams, the Emperor drains almost all the power from Kylo / Rey. Still OP as hell, but I guess it kind of makes sense? The dude stole so much force power it was coming out of his ears. :lol

Also, the movie is genuinely hilarious at times (much more so than TLJ, IMO) and visually stunning. The behind-the-scenes documentary is actually really good. I just wish that the story department at Lucasfilm put as much care into the writing as the practical effects apartment did into their stuff.
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Offline Zantera

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I still think how they handled the emperor returning was really awkward. I mean I watched the trailer and followed gossip before the movie came out but you go from not hearing ANYTHING about the emperor at all in the previous movies - and the last trace we have of him is him being thrown down a shaft and assumed dead - to an opening crawl that starts with "PALPATINE IS BACK" basically. I even remember seeing it in the cinema there was one guy close to me who yelled out a "WHAT?!" and another 2-3 people who seemed a bit confused. Because even with what we got before hand in the trailer with the laugh and the "nobody is ever really gone" you can still draw the conclusion that maybe he will pop up in a force ghost type form, not physically as the main bad guy.

I don't even want to get into the cloning side of it, that's just a whole other headache in itself.

Offline MinistroRaven

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Disney Plus will premiere eight-part Mandalorian docuseries on Star Wars Day

https://www.theverge.com/2020/4/15/21221963/mandalorian-disney-plus-documentary-docuseries-star-wars-baby-yoda


Offline gmillerdrake

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Just finished up the rewatch of Rebels with the kiddos. Such a good series.
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