Author Topic: Star Wars Discussion Thread v. Rise of Skywalker / Mandalorian (merged)  (Read 247061 times)

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Offline The Walrus

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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Rise of Skywalker (oh, and The Mandalorian)
« Reply #1995 on: January 14, 2020, 05:11:49 PM »
I thought it was ground. I recall the ships breaking the surface and seeing many jagged edges that looked way too rigid and sharp to be waves, but I could be wrong. Could also be ice.
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Offline bosk1

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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Rise of Skywalker (oh, and The Mandalorian)
« Reply #1996 on: January 14, 2020, 05:14:13 PM »
OK, so...
Ep. IX - The Rise of Skywalker

...

Minor tweaks that could have made it better:  Just a reminder before I get into this that this section in my little summaries isn't meant to decry "the movie we should have gotten."  As I have said before, I think that is an incredibly silly, presumptuous, and counterproductive exercise.  To me, either accept or reject the movie we actually got.  This is just meant to be a fun little imaginative bit where we pretend we could rewind the clock and be part of the creative team to suggest things that, in retrospect, could have maybe worked better. 

To me, there are two areas of tweaking.  The first is the timeline issue, as mentioned above in issue #1.  Just extend the timeline and show that things are happening over a longer timeframe rather than instantaneously.  The second is a bit more complicated and macro.  It has to do with both pacing and continuity with TLJ.  One way to look at these two films, to me is:  TLJ was too little plot crammed into too much movie, whereas ROS was too much plot crammed into too much movie.  I am going to go back and do a "reboot" of my "minor tweaks" section for TLJ and propose a global "minor tweaks" for both of these films that addresses both of my issues above.  Coming soon to a post near you...

So if I'm King of Star Wars for a day, here's what I do globally with both films to make a story that feels more balanced to me:

The Last Jedi

Act I:  This is basically the actual Act I and Act II of the film combined into one act.  Act I is the chase and Rey training with Luke.  But instead of being 2/3 of the movie, it is 1/3 now and the entire casino planet arc is removed.  So it would basically look like this:
-Opening battle, bombing fleet is destroyed, good guys escape [this is basically the same]
-Slight changes in tracking device plot:  Hux briefly explains that he had his guys come up with an experimental device that can track through light speed.  It works, but is unstable, and they haven't had time to replicate it.  ...SO IT IS ONLY ON ONE SHIP. 
-The good guys have gone to very near a nebula or some other space phenomenon that makes it too dangerous to have ships warp in in front of the good guy fleet, so the First Order are stuck doing a slow chase and waiting until they run out of fuel.  Snoke's ship (not the entire bad guy fleet) appears and starts the slow chase. 
-Show a montage that demonstrates the chase is taking place over a slightly longer period of time while Rey is training.  AFTER a little bit, the attack ensues where Leia is injured, etc.  Rey senses that her friends are in trouble, and vows to cut her training short and go help them.
-Holdo holds out, resulting in eventual stealth mutiny while Finn and Rose sneak aboard (no need to go to the casino to find the key master).
-From here, the rest of the act plays out about the same, where Rey goes aboard Snoke's ship, Snoke dies, etc.  This all culminates with the Holdo Manuever and the good guys escaping.  ...except that the First Order does NOT know where they went, and they get away and hunker down on Crait.

Act II:  Fairly short.  I guess it's not correct to call it an "act" in the film.  But it is an unrelated middle section, perhaps the length of the entire casino planet arc.  This is all about the First Order regrouping, Kylo taking control, and him finding Exegol.
-The First Order regroups and begins searching (1) for the good guys, and (2) for the source of these voices/the disturbance in the force that Kylo is feeling.  This is basically slightly expanding and slightly changing the montage at the beginning of ROS to give it a bit more space to breathe and to actually plant the seed of Palpatine returning.  Kylo feels that something bigger is pulling at him.  He thought it was Snoke.  But now that Snoke has been eliminated, it is more focused, and it is stronger.  It calls him to find Exegol.
-During all this, we see a bit more of the wedge growing between Kylo and Hux to where Hux resents him more and more.
-This act culminates with Kylo getting the wayfinder and going to Exegol, and Palpatine being revealed.  No more exposition here about how Palpatine is back from the dead, because if he is revealed here, but the details are not, the suspense serves the plot and is good.

Act III:  Crait.  This plays out pretty much exactly as in the film, except without Rose making her stupid non-sacrifice that made things worse.

Epilogue:  Leia tells them she has faith that although nobody answered the call, people will come to their aid.  They just have to try harder.  They are going to send people out on missions to recruit every last fighter and pilot they can find.  And she knows some old friends who can maybe help...  (setting up Lando, and making the spontaneous appearance of the largest fleet we have ever seen at the end of ROS believable)

Oh, and sprinkled in here somewhere, the Knights of Ren can show up and do...something.  Anything. 

And I'm not touching Phasma.  There is probably a bit that could be done with her to make her arc...um...exist.  But whatever.

Rise of Skywalker

Okay, now we don't have to deal with the whole opening montage and Kylo going to Exegol, which gives things a bit more time to breathe in this film.  We are still going to move at breakneck speed, but we can slow down just a bit and allow a bit more exposition.  And Palpatine does not seem so...dropped in our laps.  Here are my minor changes:
-Since we don't have/need the opening montage, let's have this open in a more "traditional" Star Wars way.  The opening crawl is similar, but slightly different.  We know Palpatine is back.  Maybe we can drop a bit of exposition in the opening crawl about how he did actually die and his acolytes used the dark side to eventually harness his spirit and bring him back.  We can do a bit more in some dialog later as well.  But the film proper opens with, fittingly, a Final Order star destroyer, equipped with canon, destroying a planet.  Maybe one like Naboo, so we have some emotional investment.  And the order going out that they have...I dunno...a week to offer their formal surrender, or else the same fate will befall all worlds that do not submit.  Now we have stakes that make sense, AND we have a more realistic timeline.  AND we don't need to opening montage, the spy we have never seen before, or light speed skipping.  Win-win (and win).
-Now we pick up with Rey training. 
-Give a bit more exposition on the Final Order fleet and Palpatine as needed.  Fleet comes up out of water, because that still looks every bit as amazing, but is actually realistic.  Explanation that the ships are hovering in "dock" mode, and the reason they need the antenae/guidance system is because there are so many ships in close proximity, and they are big, and there is interference from the...whatever the heck created all the interference and weird strobes...and all those factors combined made it necessary for a beacon to guide them out.  That's why they are "sitting ducks" until they can all get out. 
-Fix the desert planet stuff just a bit because the quicksand/cave bit worked, but was too wonky as written.
-Sprinkle in hints that a fleet is maybe being assembled and they maybe are reaching people.  Nothing concrete.  But something to give a sliver of hope that maybe people actually ARE coming to the final battle.

That's pretty much it.  Yanking a big chunk of ROS and putting it in TLJ makes it possible to do all these other minor fixes and tweaks and would just make the whole thing more cohesive without really having to revamp the entire story.  Those are my thoughts anyway.
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Offline lordxizor

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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Rise of Skywalker (oh, and The Mandalorian)
« Reply #1997 on: January 15, 2020, 06:34:12 AM »
I like that a lot.

But that would have needed a plan for the plot of all three movies, which it's clear they didn't have. That is the single biggest disappointment of the sequel trilogy and the biggest lesson I hope Lucasfilm learned moving forward.

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Offline Stadler

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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Rise of Skywalker (oh, and The Mandalorian)
« Reply #1999 on: January 15, 2020, 08:02:27 PM »
That top picture is awesome.

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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Rise of Skywalker (oh, and The Mandalorian)
« Reply #2000 on: January 17, 2020, 10:28:54 AM »
Did you guys see that a summary of the last draft of Colin Trevorrow's script has made its way out into the wild? Completely different than what we got from JJ for Episode 9.

https://www.reddit.com/r/StarWarsLeaks/comments/eoaxdn/robert_meyer_burnett_reviews_an_early_draft_of/
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Offline bosk1

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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Rise of Skywalker (oh, and The Mandalorian)
« Reply #2001 on: January 17, 2020, 10:36:27 AM »
Yeah.  Some intriguing ideas.  But hard to say how it would have come across on screen.
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Offline The Walrus

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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Rise of Skywalker (oh, and The Mandalorian)
« Reply #2002 on: January 17, 2020, 10:39:42 AM »
Would've loved to see Kylo haunted by Luke and go to Mustafar (the lava-y parts) personally.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2020, 12:07:30 PM by Kattelox »
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Offline Polarbear

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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Rise of Skywalker (oh, and The Mandalorian)
« Reply #2003 on: January 17, 2020, 11:20:14 AM »
Interesting ideas for sure, but still this sounds just about as messy as what we got in TROS.

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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Rise of Skywalker (oh, and The Mandalorian)
« Reply #2004 on: January 20, 2020, 12:26:11 AM »
I hate how everyone can all of a sudden understand what "beep-boop-beep" droids are saying (since TFA).

Not just simple emotions or inferences based on what's going on in the moment, but full-on sentences and complex vocabulary (ie. the Eylenium System that Rey understood from a few beeps from BB-8 or when Rey says to Fin that BB-8 says that you're wearing the jacket that belonged to his master).

Offline Orbert

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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Rise of Skywalker (oh, and The Mandalorian)
« Reply #2005 on: January 20, 2020, 08:25:37 AM »
In the original trilogy, R2-D2 says "beep-boop-beep" and Luke says "That's right, R2. We're going to the Dagobah System."  I guess the idea is that if you spend enough time around them, you learn their "language".

But it's always seemed pretty dumb to me.

Offline Adami

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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Rise of Skywalker (oh, and The Mandalorian)
« Reply #2006 on: January 20, 2020, 08:28:40 AM »
In the original trilogy, R2-D2 says "beep-boop-beep" and Luke says "That's right, R2. We're going to the Dagobah System."  I guess the idea is that if you spend enough time around them, you learn their "language".

But it's always seemed pretty dumb to me.

Good point. But I, based on nothing, always assumed, since they were in the x-wing, that he was seeing a translation or something. I don’t recall Luke understanding him outside of the ship. Might be wrong though.
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Offline MirrorMask

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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Rise of Skywalker (oh, and The Mandalorian)
« Reply #2007 on: January 20, 2020, 09:03:35 AM »
It's like the Guardians of the Galaxy understanding every variation and inclination of "I am Groot". Makes really no sense when you think about it.

Could R2-D2 speak a variation of Morse? if you know Morse language and, say, that kind of tone means dot and that other kind of tone means a line, you eventually figure it out. It could be the same principle. But yeah, they didn't really measure the beeps / complexity of sentences ratio.
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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Rise of Skywalker (oh, and The Mandalorian)
« Reply #2008 on: January 20, 2020, 09:16:05 AM »
It's like the Guardians of the Galaxy understanding every variation and inclination of "I am Groot". Makes really no sense when you think about it.


Important point though....I'm pretty sure it's only Rocket who can understand him.   That makes it a little better.  Sortof like when Han was the only one who could understand Chewie. 
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Offline Adami

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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Rise of Skywalker (oh, and The Mandalorian)
« Reply #2009 on: January 20, 2020, 09:29:03 AM »
It's like the Guardians of the Galaxy understanding every variation and inclination of "I am Groot". Makes really no sense when you think about it.


Important point though....I'm pretty sure it's only Rocket who can understand him.   That makes it a little better.  Sortof like when Han was the only one who could understand Chewie.

Yea. In the Avengers movies, however, the rest of the guardians learned Groot and Thor said he spoke Groot too.
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Offline The Walrus

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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Rise of Skywalker (oh, and The Mandalorian)
« Reply #2010 on: January 20, 2020, 10:03:44 AM »
Wasn't it Quill who said, "Whoa, watch the language!" and then the rest of the Guardians moaned when teen Groot said "I am Groot" ?  :lol
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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Rise of Skywalker (oh, and The Mandalorian)
« Reply #2011 on: January 20, 2020, 11:20:44 AM »
It's like the Guardians of the Galaxy understanding every variation and inclination of "I am Groot". Makes really no sense when you think about it.


Important point though....I'm pretty sure it's only Rocket who can understand him.   That makes it a little better.  Sortof like when Han was the only one who could understand Chewie.

Yea. In the Avengers movies, however, the rest of the guardians learned Groot and Thor said he spoke Groot too.

They taught it as an elective.

Wasn't it Quill who said, "Whoa, watch the language!" and then the rest of the Guardians moaned when teen Groot said "I am Groot" ?  :lol

Quill told him to put the game away, Groot talked back, and everyone reacted. I've seen Infinity War too many times.

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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Rise of Skywalker (oh, and The Mandalorian)
« Reply #2012 on: January 20, 2020, 05:35:51 PM »
In the original trilogy, R2-D2 says "beep-boop-beep" and Luke says "That's right, R2. We're going to the Dagobah System."  I guess the idea is that if you spend enough time around them, you learn their "language".

But it's always seemed pretty dumb to me.

Good point. But I, based on nothing, always assumed, since they were in the x-wing, that he was seeing a translation or something. I don’t recall Luke understanding him outside of the ship. Might be wrong though.

There's a shot (maybe in ESB?) that shows what appears to be the computer translating what R2 says into whatever language it is that Luke speaks.
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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Rise of Skywalker (oh, and The Mandalorian)
« Reply #2013 on: January 20, 2020, 05:57:35 PM »
Easier to see on the big screen, but I remember vividly that that is true.
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Offline Adami

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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Rise of Skywalker (oh, and The Mandalorian)
« Reply #2014 on: January 20, 2020, 06:00:47 PM »
Let’s not forget the (thankfully) deleted scene in ROTS where Anakin actually speaks the beep bloops.
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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Rise of Skywalker (oh, and The Mandalorian)
« Reply #2015 on: January 20, 2020, 06:02:49 PM »
Whoa, seriously?

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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Rise of Skywalker (oh, and The Mandalorian)
« Reply #2017 on: January 20, 2020, 08:00:17 PM »
That was odd.  I get what they were going for, but I agree that it's a good thing it wasn't used.

Offline PetFish

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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Rise of Skywalker (oh, and The Mandalorian)
« Reply #2018 on: January 20, 2020, 10:31:59 PM »
There's a shot (maybe in ESB?) that shows what appears to be the computer translating what R2 says into whatever language it is that Luke speaks.

Yep, after they escape from Hoth, R2 asks something and you see the little screen and then Luke answers.  We can assume he's asking where they are going since he also just asked why they aren't heading towards the fleet for the rendezvous.  Plus, we can infer the basics like when 3PO tells R2 that Master Luke probably doesn't like him and R2 says "boop, boooooop?" as if saying "do you?" and 3P0 says "no, i don't like you either".

The whole "I am Groot" thing is different since it was established in the movie that Rocket, and maybe others, can understand him.  It *was* established in Star Wars that you needed a translator/protocol droid to speak to beep-boop-beep droids and other races that visited you from around the galaxy.  But then, all of a sudden, everyone can just understand it.

I'm fine with the basics of beep-boop-beep, just not specifics.

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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Rise of Skywalker (oh, and The Mandalorian)
« Reply #2019 on: January 23, 2020, 09:52:05 AM »
I saw the first Star Wars in the theater when I was 7.  I have thoroughly enjoyed the Movies (a bit less with the prequels TBH), and the last three were a lot of fun.  I enjoyed introducing the SW universe to my 10, now 13 yr old daughter, and really liked it having a strong female lead.
I totally get the frustrations with plot holes, and inconsistencies, logical flaws....i really get it.  Normally they would bother me more....except that with Star Wars, i tend to be more forgiving.  I think it is a part of the whole romance, suspending or reality, fantasy feeling that I love getting with SW.  It allows me to just sit back and enjoy it for what it is.....a very entertaining and fun sci-fi ride.
I enjoyed the movies.  I will watch the Mandalorian soon, as it has such great reviews.  I do hope that future movies get a bit better with plot and logic...and perhaps deeper character and story development....perhaps with a clean slate, that can be accomplished a bit easier.
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Offline bosk1

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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Rise of Skywalker (oh, and The Mandalorian)
« Reply #2020 on: January 23, 2020, 10:10:19 AM »
...except that with Star Wars, i tend to be more forgiving.  I think it is a part of the whole romance, suspending or reality, fantasy feeling that I love getting with SW.  It allows me to just sit back and enjoy it for what it is.....a very entertaining and fun sci-fi ride.

Yeah, I think you hit on what they were intended to do from day 1, and what people who can enjoy them identify with.  I have seen many people who try to defend them try to point out that they are "kids' movies" or "intended for children."  There is a grain of truth to that, but I think it misses the point.  What Lucas was going for is the Saturday morning serial, ala Flash Gordon.  The kind of stories that are corny and campy, that you could never in a million years identify with based on any claim to realism, but that could just take you to another place and make you have a good time.  They aren't necessarily aimed just at "kids," per se, but at those who could watch a guy in a rubber Godzilla suit and simultaneously point and laugh, while thoroughly enjoying the mock terror and have a blast being swept away to a place of ridiculous fun.  I'm not sure what the specific correlation is these days, but for those of our generation, I think the Flash Gordon/Godzilla/Space Giants crowd fits what the films were going for--taking that to a slightly higher level and presenting it as cinema.  The original trilogy did that well.  The PT definitely had that, but I think Lucas also got mired in competing agendas during that period, and that takes an unfortunate back seat.  I think the new films, by and large, got back to that and did it well, and I think that's why a lot of folks from our generation tended to like them, whereas some of the adult fans that are a bit younger than us tend to rage at them.

I will watch the Mandalorian soon, as it has such great reviews.  I do hope that future movies get a bit better with plot and logic...and perhaps deeper character and story development....perhaps with a clean slate, that can be accomplished a bit easier.

Hard to say what direction new films will take.  I kind of feel like the standalone films, love them or hate them, might be somewhat of an indicator of where Disney/Lucasfilm might be wanting to go, tonally, and in terms of the things you mention.  I think they're going to go for slightly more gritty, realistic, character-driven movies.  And with the ending of the Skywalker saga, I think it's appropriate to make that shift now and get away from the "Saturday morning serial"-type of film. 
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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Rise of Skywalker (oh, and The Mandalorian)
« Reply #2021 on: January 23, 2020, 11:12:24 AM »
Final season of Clone Wars coming 2/21!!! Looks amazing.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZLW2jkd6E7g


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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Rise of Skywalker (oh, and The Mandalorian)
« Reply #2022 on: January 23, 2020, 11:32:31 AM »
Final season of Clone Wars coming 2/21!!! Looks amazing.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZLW2jkd6E7g

So pumped for this!  :metal    Been jamming through the series again...it's really a well done series. If any of you guys haven't watched it I'd highly recommend it.....that and REBELS. Both solid.

There are some clunker episodes but they're also only 20 minutes long so.....If I had to put a percentage on it I'd say 90% of the episodes are 'worth' the watch....the other 10% are just 'meh'. But all in all the Clone Wars does wonders to build upon Obi Wan and Anakin's relationship.....shows how powerful Anakin truly was......and features (IMO) one of the best SW characters around in Ahsoka.
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Offline kaos2900

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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Rise of Skywalker (oh, and The Mandalorian)
« Reply #2023 on: January 23, 2020, 12:55:55 PM »
Final season of Clone Wars coming 2/21!!! Looks amazing.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZLW2jkd6E7g

So pumped for this!  :metal    Been jamming through the series again...it's really a well done series. If any of you guys haven't watched it I'd highly recommend it.....that and REBELS. Both solid.

There are some clunker episodes but they're also only 20 minutes long so.....If I had to put a percentage on it I'd say 90% of the episodes are 'worth' the watch....the other 10% are just 'meh'. But all in all the Clone Wars does wonders to build upon Obi Wan and Anakin's relationship.....shows how powerful Anakin truly was......and features (IMO) one of the best SW characters around in Ahsoka.

Agreed. Just finished my re-watch as well and about done with season 1 of Rebels. I'm pretty much sold on the idea of there being way more Star Wars shows than movies.

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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Rise of Skywalker (oh, and The Mandalorian)
« Reply #2024 on: January 23, 2020, 02:42:16 PM »
Final season of Clone Wars coming 2/21!!! Looks amazing.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZLW2jkd6E7g

So pumped for this!  :metal    Been jamming through the series again...it's really a well done series. If any of you guys haven't watched it I'd highly recommend it.....that and REBELS. Both solid.

There are some clunker episodes but they're also only 20 minutes long so.....If I had to put a percentage on it I'd say 90% of the episodes are 'worth' the watch....the other 10% are just 'meh'. But all in all the Clone Wars does wonders to build upon Obi Wan and Anakin's relationship.....shows how powerful Anakin truly was......and features (IMO) one of the best SW characters around in Ahsoka.

Agreed. Just finished my re-watch as well and about done with season 1 of Rebels. I'm pretty much sold on the idea of there being way more Star Wars shows than movies.

Have you by chance watche 'Mr. Robot'? I only ask because I think Elliots sister Darlene on that show is a perfect fit for a live action Ahsoka. Strictly on the 'look' alone. I'm sure the actress could hone that character in as well.
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Offline ProfessorPeart

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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Rise of Skywalker (oh, and The Mandalorian)
« Reply #2025 on: January 23, 2020, 09:56:10 PM »
Hey look, more problems in Star Wars land! Apparently Kathy Kennedy was unhappy with the first 2 Obi-wan scripts and sent everyone home, reduced the series order from 6 to 4 episodes and put the whole thing on indefinite hold. Why is she finding it so hard to manage this?

Starting to wonder why she is still in charge. This is getting old.

https://www.indiewire.com/2020/01/obi-wan-series-delayed-disney-star-wars-1202205572/
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Offline The Walrus

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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Rise of Skywalker (oh, and The Mandalorian)
« Reply #2026 on: January 24, 2020, 05:48:19 AM »
She's terrible at this.
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Offline kaos2900

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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Rise of Skywalker (oh, and The Mandalorian)
« Reply #2027 on: January 24, 2020, 07:06:39 AM »
Or is she smart? Rogue one and Solo (which i still think is good but would have been a better show) went through a lot of re-writes. From what I read there was concern over the plot being too similar to the mandalorian. I'd rather wait longer than get a shit show.


Offline gmillerdrake

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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Rise of Skywalker (oh, and The Mandalorian)
« Reply #2029 on: January 24, 2020, 04:01:22 PM »
The more I’ve read about the abandoned script and seen the concept art for Trevorrows Episode 9 the more I’m intrigued

We got what we got.....and I’m on record as being satisfied with the trilogy.....but his movie sounds like
It’d have been interesting as heck. We can only imagine at this point.
Without Faith.....Without Hope.....There can be No Peace of Mind