Star Wars Discussion Thread v. Rise of Skywalker / Mandalorian (merged)

[MinistroRaven]

Here's the trailer https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aOC8E8z_ifw

[Cool Chris]

Boy the Disney suits don't think this well will ever run dry eh? 

After I typed that I found the trailer for The Mandalorian - never mind, already posted.

Also, looking at the cast I see:

Apollo Creed!
Werner Herzog - who I was not sure was still alive
Nick Nolte - who I was not sure was still alive
And a girl named Emily Swallow.

[MrBoom_shack-a-lack]

Just announced at #D23Expo: Ewan McGregor will reprise his role as Obi-Wan Kenobi in a new original series, coming to #DisneyPlus.

This will be interesting!  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fIcjQYUV14w&feature=youtu.be

[YtseJam]

Just announced at #D23Expo: Ewan McGregor will reprise his role as Obi-Wan Kenobi in a new original series, coming to #DisneyPlus.

This will be interesting!  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fIcjQYUV14w&feature=youtu.be

Disney is smart to do a streaming service and stop waiting for years to pass for mediocre movies. Star Wars will do better with a few series to keep it going at this point.

[MrBoom_shack-a-lack]

Just announced at #D23Expo: Ewan McGregor will reprise his role as Obi-Wan Kenobi in a new original series, coming to #DisneyPlus.

This will be interesting!  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fIcjQYUV14w&feature=youtu.be

Disney is smart to do a streaming service and stop waiting for years to pass for mediocre movies. Star Wars will do better with a few series to keep it going at this point.

Yea I think that's why i'm more excited for this than I been for any of the movies in recent years. If it's it's good and well recieved I guess this will spawn 5 new seasons and 7 spin-offs. 

[gmillerdrake]

They also say that ‘The Mandelorian’ episodes will be released one at at time week after week and not the binge style.

I prefer the binge model but this will have to do

[axeman90210]

I'm the opposite, prefer the weekly release format. I like when everyone's watching the show at the same time/pace and you can have a proper discussion about the show, but when Netflix drops a whole new season on a Friday morning you either A) make yourself binge it that first weekend and you can take place in the brief pop culture zeitgeist conversation about that show, or B) watch it later on your own time. There's nothing wrong with watching a show in a vacuum, but I enjoy the communal aspect of watching an episode and then hopping online and seeing what friends and the couple TV critics that I follow thought of what we all just watched and where we think the show is going next. As it stands now, between streaming services mostly utilizing the binge model and the general more fractured nature of viewership due to how many more options we have than even ten years ago, it seems like the era of the "water-cooler" show is coming to an end. Game of Thrones might well have been the last.

[gmillerdrake]

^^^^ you know, I dig and like that aspect as well and didn’t really think about that. The Walking Dead was like That for a few years. If this show is that well done then I can get onboard with another water cooler show. Totally ready for it.

[ariich]

I'm the opposite, prefer the weekly release format. I like when everyone's watching the show at the same time/pace and you can have a proper discussion about the show, but when Netflix drops a whole new season on a Friday morning you either A) make yourself binge it that first weekend and you can take place in the brief pop culture zeitgeist conversation about that show, or B) watch it later on your own time. There's nothing wrong with watching a show in a vacuum, but I enjoy the communal aspect of watching an episode and then hopping online and seeing what friends and the couple TV critics that I follow thought of what we all just watched and where we think the show is going next. As it stands now, between streaming services mostly utilizing the binge model and the general more fractured nature of viewership due to how many more options we have than even ten years ago, it seems like the era of the "water-cooler" show is coming to an end. Game of Thrones might well have been the last.

Completely agree Bill, and that's why on balance I slightly prefer weekly shows.

[Polarbear]

https://youtu.be/3n1T3HxHd7Y

A new The Rise of Skywalker teaser!

[Podaar]

Darth Rey? 

[pg1067]

The scene with a grid of 100 (ish) star destroyers is pretty cool.

And I want to see the outtakes from the scene where Rey flips her light saber open.  There have to be a couple where it didn't work.

[YtseJam]

So does that mean Luke is resurrected into Rey?

[TheOutlawXanadu]

I like the theory that Rey is a clone. I think it fits pretty well with VII and VIII. I'm not usually one to hope for specific things, but I think that would be super cool!

With IX approaching, I am starting to get a bit of an itch to re-watch VII and VIII. I haven't seen TFA in about two years and I haven't seen TLJ since it was in theaters. I am curious to see how I feel about them, especially TLJ, after so long out of sight and mind.

[bosk1]

I quite liked both of them.  But when I am in the mood for Star Wars, Rogue One eclipsed them all.

[bosk1]

Meanwhile, TSA bans new Coke bottles from carry-on and checked luggage:  https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/tsa-bans-star-wars-galaxys-edge-coke-bottles-disneyland-disney-world-170038929.html

[jingle.boy]

Oh dear lord.  TSA incompetence at its finest.

[pg1067]

Assuming normal soda bottles are ok for checked bags (they obviously can't be carried on), I have a hard time believing they will actually get removed from checked bags.  I wouldn't put much stock in these tweets.

[bosk1]

So, Abrams does not feel that Rian Johnson subverted anything in The Last Jedi.

J.J. Abrams Says Rian Johnson ‘Didn’t Derail’ the ‘Star Wars’ Story in ‘Last Jedi’

Abrams is clearing up the alleged friction between his movies and Johnson's "The Last Jedi."

Rian Johnson’s “Star Wars: The Last Jedi” surprised many fans by upending a lot of the expectations J.J. Abrams set in his trilogy starter “Star Wars: The Force Awakens.” Some fans have criticized Johnson for his creative choices, but Abrams tells the Associated Press that nothing Johnson executed in “The Last Jedi” threw off track the narrative that Lucasfilm planned for the latest trilogy since the beginning.

“The story that we’re telling, the story that we started to conceive when we did ‘The Force Awakens’ was allowed to continue,” Abrams said. “Episode VIII didn’t really derail anything that we were thinking about.”

One decision Johnson made in “The Last Jedi” that threw fans for a loop was killing off Supreme Leader Snoke (Andy Serkis) without revealing any of the character’s backstory. Abrams’ introduction of the character in “The Force Awakens” led many fans to believe Snoke would be the primary antagonist of the trilogy (similar to Emperor Palpatine) and theorize about Snoke’s real identity. Johnson threw out fan theory speculation by simply killing the character without fanfare. Fans did not know it at the time, but Palpatine is now returning for “The Rise of Skywalker.” The way Abrams talks about it makes it sound like Palpatine’s return was always in the cards, which would mean Johnson’s decision to kill Snoke in “The Last Jedi” didn’t change the larger narrative at all.

The issue surrounding Rey’s parents is more pressing for fans. Many viewers spent the bulk of the wait in between “The Force Awakens” and “The Last Jedi” theorizing who Rey’s parents might be, only for Johnson’s script to have Kylo Ren (Adam Driver) reveal they were nobody special. In Kylo’s words, Rey’s parents were “filthy junk traders who sold [her] off for drinking money.”

Some “Star Wars” fans took “The Last Jedi” reveal to be Johnson ruining Rey’s character, while others were delightfully surprised that Rey was a common person and not a descendent of a Skywalker or Kenobi. And yet, fans of the Rey twist are now worried Abrams will retcon Johnson’s decision and reveal in “The Rise of Skywalker” that her parents were major characters.

“I will say there is more to the story [of Rey’s parentage] than you’ve seen,” Abrams said at Star Wars Celebration in April.

Abrams’ latest quote to ET Canada helps clear up the friction between his movies and Johnson’s “The Last Jedi.” Whatever ends up happening with Rey’s parents is not a retconning of Johnson’s script because “The Last Jedi” didn’t throw off Abrams’ plan for the new trilogy. Fans will find out how Abrams brings the Skywalker saga to its end when “The Rise of Skywalker” opens December 20.

https://www.indiewire.com/2019/08/jj-abrams-rian-johnson-derail-star-wars-story-1202169944/

Personally, I am glad he came out and said this.  It ultimately doesn't change anything.  But I'm glad nonetheless.  I know others even here disagree.  But to me, I have found the fanboy handwringing over Rey's lineage, Snoke's death without more backstory, and/or the perceived "ruining" of Luke's character to be some of the most annoying criticisms of the Star Wars universe.  Personally, I liked The Last Jedi.  But I can absolutely acknowledge its weaknesses (the entire casino planet arc, anyone?).  But those three issues, which are certain the MOST complained about, aren't "flaws" at all.

[Orbert]

They're not flaws per se, but Johnson definitely took things in a different direction than most expected.  Not getting what you'd hoped for is one thing, but when the narrative seems to be moving in a certain direction and someone else steps in and says "Nah, we're doing this instead" it's more than just disappointment.  There were many things hinted at in Episode VII that were either concluded somewhat unsatisfactorily or completely ignored, and one could argue that that constitutes bad storytelling.

It seems entirely possible that JJ is saying this publicly to help downplay all the negative PR and help build up excitement for Episode IX.  Gotta keep things positive.

[jammindude]

I CALLED IT!!!   I loved The Last Jedi as well, but on the day I walked out of the theater, I remember telling everyone "He was playing mind games.  Telling her she was a nobody was just a way of trying to undermine her belief in herself.  HE. WAS. LYING. To get into her head."

But everyone went with the surface interpretation.   

[bosk1]

They're not flaws per se, but Johnson definitely took things in a different direction than most expected.  Not getting what you'd hoped for is one thing, but when the narrative seems to be moving in a certain direction and someone else steps in and says "Nah, we're doing this instead" it's more than just disappointment.  There were many things hinted at in Episode VII that were either concluded somewhat unsatisfactorily or completely ignored, and one could argue that that constitutes bad storytelling.

Yeah, one could argue that.  But that's shortsighted, and really amounts to trying to pin blame on someone else for the fact that "one" simply didn't like it.  I think this guy nailed it in his comment:  "The main issue is right there in the first sentence "upended fans expectations". So many people had their own 'script' made up already in their minds and got mad when the movie didn't fit their narrative."

[Polarbear]

It is worth remembering that Abrams got an "Executive Producer" credit on TLJ. Sure Abrams didn't know that he would be coming back to end the trilogy, but i'm sure they have had some communication about the trajectory of the story, both pre-TLJ and post-TLJ.

Abrams also said in some other interview something akin to: being inspired by Johnson to not play it safe with TRoS and take some creative risks. And bringing back Uncle Palps is pretty risky.

[pg1067]

Personally, I am glad he came out and said this.  It ultimately doesn't change anything.  But I'm glad nonetheless.  I know others even here disagree.  But to me, I have found the fanboy handwringing over Rey's lineage, Snoke's death without more backstory, and/or the perceived "ruining" of Luke's character to be some of the most annoying criticisms of the Star Wars universe.  Personally, I liked The Last Jedi.  But I can absolutely acknowledge its weaknesses (the entire casino planet arc, anyone?).  But those three issues, which are certain the MOST complained about, aren't "flaws" at all.

I've said it before.  WAY too many fans decided that the story should progress in a certain way and then, when that didn't happen, they decided someone had screwed things up.  As someone I know once wrote, "let the story guide me."  All of the noise about this failed to appreciate that we've only gotten two parts of a trilogy.

Also, just because KR said her parents were nothing doesn't mean it's true.

I CALLED IT!!!   I loved The Last Jedi as well, but on the day I walked out of the theater, I remember telling everyone "He was playing mind games.  Telling her she was a nobody was just a way of trying to undermine her belief in herself.  HE. WAS. LYING. To get into her head."

But everyone went with the surface interpretation.   

Exactly.  Even the article said, "Kylo Ren reveal[ed] they were nobody special," as opposed to "claimed."

[Orbert]

They're not flaws per se, but Johnson definitely took things in a different direction than most expected.  Not getting what you'd hoped for is one thing, but when the narrative seems to be moving in a certain direction and someone else steps in and says "Nah, we're doing this instead" it's more than just disappointment.  There were many things hinted at in Episode VII that were either concluded somewhat unsatisfactorily or completely ignored, and one could argue that that constitutes bad storytelling.

Yeah, one could argue that.  But that's shortsighted, and really amounts to trying to pin blame on someone else for the fact that "one" simply didn't like it.  I think this guy nailed it in his comment:  "The main issue is right there in the first sentence "upended fans expectations". So many people had their own 'script' made up already in their minds and got mad when the movie didn't fit their narrative."

To be clear, I'm not "one" of them.  I'm pretty much in the middle on the whole issue.  I think fans who screaming bloody murder and betrayal are going too far, but I think they have some legitimate gripes.

I don't call it bad storytelling just because I didn't like it.  There are some amazing, brilliant movies out there that I don't like.  But when a large portion of a movie's fanbase doesn't like it, or has multiple legitimate complaints about it, maybe there's something wrong with the storytelling.  Or are you saying that just because you did like it that no one else's complaints are legit?

Star Wars has traditionally been very straightforward storytelling.  Sure, "upending expectations" can be a good thing.  But this isn't just that.  Things in VII were built up and then literally ignored in VIII.  No resolution, no follow-up at all.  So maybe they'll be answered in IX.  If they aren't, then the complaints were legit.  If they are, then I'd still say that not even following up with anything even hinting at resolution in VIII is bad storytelling.

[bosk1]

Star Wars has traditionally been very straightforward storytelling.  Sure, "upending expectations" can be a good thing.  But this isn't just that.  Things in VII were built up and then literally ignored in VIII.  No resolution, no follow-up at all.  So maybe they'll be answered in IX.  If they aren't, then the complaints were legit.  If they are, then I'd still say that not even following up with anything even hinting at resolution in VIII is bad storytelling.

I wouldn't say that at all.  Not everything needs explanation or resolution.  On the contrary, I think that trying to explain and resolve every little loose end is more lazy storytelling than the more "real world" approach of just letting things play out, and resolving the major themes.  And often, we don't know for sure what those are until the end.  There should be unexpected twists and turns along the way rather than everything being neat and tidy, because that's how life is.  Things may be hinted at and dropped for any number of reasons.  Maybe it is intentional misdirection.  Maybe it is just a thread that, once it was started, they realized it didn't really pay off and they thought of something better.  Heck, as good a job as the MCU did at paying off seemingly meaningless threads, they even had some of that as well (for example, the infinity gauntlet originally seen in Odin's vault, which they later had an issue with once they decided they were going the Infinity War route, so they had to retcon that a bit by having Hela call it a fake in Ragnarok).  And sometimes, there IS a payoff, but it comes later rather than immediately.  Again, none of those things are necessarily "bad writing" just because fans wanted or expected something they didn't get.

Or are you saying that just because you did like it that no one else's complaints are legit?

No, not at all.  I think the above clarifies it.  But in general, I think people just complain too much anyway.  You don't like it?  Cool.  Don't like it then.  That doesn't mean it sucks or that there is something wrong with the artist that created it.  It just means you didn't like it.  There doesn't have to be a scapegoat for that.

[YtseJam]

As Johnson sucks off Abrams and begs him not to bash him....

[ariich]

Star Wars has traditionally been very straightforward storytelling.

The Empire Strikes Back would like to have a word with you.

Sure, "upending expectations" can be a good thing.  But this isn't just that.  Things in VII were built up and then literally ignored in VIII.  No resolution, no follow-up at all.  So maybe they'll be answered in IX.  If they aren't, then the complaints were legit.  If they are, then I'd still say that not even following up with anything even hinting at resolution in VIII is bad storytelling.

Why? VIII wasn't the end of the series, so why would anyone expect it to resolve anything, let alone everything? And if things aren't answered/resolved satisfactorily by the end of IX, sure there could be reasonable complaints but at the trilogy as a whole.

[Zantera]

I loved TFA and would consider TLJ one of the biggest disappointments of my time, but I still have faith in JJ and the rest to turn it around and make a satisfying end to this trilogy. It's weird with Disney though, I thought Rogue One was bad, Solo was pretty meh and I didn't like TLJ but I'm still hyped and I still think they can do something good. 

[hefdaddy42]

After some recent rewatching, I remain steadfast in my opinion that The Last Jedi is fantastic, second only to The Empire Strikes Back among the Star Wars films.  The two films are great for many of the same reasons, as well.

[gmillerdrake]

I remain steadfast in my opinion that The Last Jedi is fantastic, second only to The Empire Strikes Back among the Star Wars films. 

Right there with ya. Each time I re-watch TLJ I appreciate it more and more. In my eyes, it's the most complete actual 'movie' of the entire series. Meaning....it's the only one (IMO) that is more than surface deep. The others are very 'shallow' in the aspect of what you see is what you get whereas I think Johnson did a fantastic job of layering TLJ.....ESPECIALLY with Luke.

But I'm well aware of the criticisms of the film....and am glad those don't bother me the way they do others. I really like TFA and am looking forward to the final film.

[pg1067]

After some recent rewatching, I remain steadfast in my opinion that The Last Jedi is fantastic, second only to The Empire Strikes Back among the Star Wars films.  The two films are great for many of the same reasons, as well.

Yup (although I think I'd be hard pressed to rank TLJ over ANH, it would be close, and there's no question for me that TLJ is no worse than the third best Star Wars movie).

[ariich]

After some recent rewatching, I remain steadfast in my opinion that The Last Jedi is fantastic, second only to The Empire Strikes Back among the Star Wars films.  The two films are great for many of the same reasons, as well.

Agreed on all counts.

[TheOutlawXanadu]

So, Abrams does not feel that Rian Johnson subverted anything in The Last Jedi.

J.J. Abrams Says Rian Johnson ‘Didn’t Derail’ the ‘Star Wars’ Story in ‘Last Jedi’

Abrams is clearing up the alleged friction between his movies and Johnson's "The Last Jedi."

Rian Johnson’s “Star Wars: The Last Jedi” surprised many fans by upending a lot of the expectations J.J. Abrams set in his trilogy starter “Star Wars: The Force Awakens.” Some fans have criticized Johnson for his creative choices, but Abrams tells the Associated Press that nothing Johnson executed in “The Last Jedi” threw off track the narrative that Lucasfilm planned for the latest trilogy since the beginning.

“The story that we’re telling, the story that we started to conceive when we did ‘The Force Awakens’ was allowed to continue,” Abrams said. “Episode VIII didn’t really derail anything that we were thinking about.”

One decision Johnson made in “The Last Jedi” that threw fans for a loop was killing off Supreme Leader Snoke (Andy Serkis) without revealing any of the character’s backstory. Abrams’ introduction of the character in “The Force Awakens” led many fans to believe Snoke would be the primary antagonist of the trilogy (similar to Emperor Palpatine) and theorize about Snoke’s real identity. Johnson threw out fan theory speculation by simply killing the character without fanfare. Fans did not know it at the time, but Palpatine is now returning for “The Rise of Skywalker.” The way Abrams talks about it makes it sound like Palpatine’s return was always in the cards, which would mean Johnson’s decision to kill Snoke in “The Last Jedi” didn’t change the larger narrative at all.

The issue surrounding Rey’s parents is more pressing for fans. Many viewers spent the bulk of the wait in between “The Force Awakens” and “The Last Jedi” theorizing who Rey’s parents might be, only for Johnson’s script to have Kylo Ren (Adam Driver) reveal they were nobody special. In Kylo’s words, Rey’s parents were “filthy junk traders who sold [her] off for drinking money.”

Some “Star Wars” fans took “The Last Jedi” reveal to be Johnson ruining Rey’s character, while others were delightfully surprised that Rey was a common person and not a descendent of a Skywalker or Kenobi. And yet, fans of the Rey twist are now worried Abrams will retcon Johnson’s decision and reveal in “The Rise of Skywalker” that her parents were major characters.

“I will say there is more to the story [of Rey’s parentage] than you’ve seen,” Abrams said at Star Wars Celebration in April.

Abrams’ latest quote to ET Canada helps clear up the friction between his movies and Johnson’s “The Last Jedi.” Whatever ends up happening with Rey’s parents is not a retconning of Johnson’s script because “The Last Jedi” didn’t throw off Abrams’ plan for the new trilogy. Fans will find out how Abrams brings the Skywalker saga to its end when “The Rise of Skywalker” opens December 20.

https://www.indiewire.com/2019/08/jj-abrams-rian-johnson-derail-star-wars-story-1202169944/

Personally, I am glad he came out and said this.  It ultimately doesn't change anything.  But I'm glad nonetheless.  I know others even here disagree.  But to me, I have found the fanboy handwringing over Rey's lineage, Snoke's death without more backstory, and/or the perceived "ruining" of Luke's character to be some of the most annoying criticisms of the Star Wars universe.  Personally, I liked The Last Jedi.  But I can absolutely acknowledge its weaknesses (the entire casino planet arc, anyone?).  But those three issues, which are certain the MOST complained about, aren't "flaws" at all.

I think I already mentioned this a few pages back, but a report came out earlier this year that basically said "Grumpy Luke" was always a part of the plan, even within George Lucas's original story outline. That doesn't mean you have to like how Luke was handled, but it certainly pokes a hole in the idea that Johnson recklessly went off script and ruined Like single-handedly.

On a side note, I told a colleague about my plan to re-watch the new Star Wars movies soon, and of course we started chatting about our opinions. This particular guy said that they got Luke's character wrong in TLJ... And that Luke should have been a badass who "ignited the green" and started cutting people down like "Darth Vader at the end of Rogue One". This is actually something I've heard from a lot of people, which is super confusing to me, because I feel like that would be an even bigger betrayal of his character than how he was portrayed in TLJ.

[hefdaddy42]

I agree.