Author Topic: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Last Jedi  (Read 20473 times)

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Offline gmillerdrake

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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Last Jedi
« Reply #105 on: December 18, 2017, 06:47:44 AM »
What an odd film. I really enjoyed watching it, but I also left the theater thoroughly baffled by what I saw. Need to see again. Couldnít rate right now if I tried.

This forum is the only place where I still have any kind of online presence, so apologies in advance if it feels like I'm just using this page as a place to get all of my thoughts out...

I haven't seen the film since I last checked in. I plan on seeing it Friday night. However, since I first saw it, I haven't been able to stop thinking about it. I can't put a finger on exactly why, but I feel as though the film genuinely moved me, even if I didn't totally realize it at first. What happened to Luke was both tragic and hopeful... The film was very bittersweet in a lot of ways. I'm anxious to catch it again.

My second viewing completely changed my look at the film. Thought it was OK the first time....left the second screening loving it......minus the Leiah space float scene. Thatís still dumb.
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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Last Jedi
« Reply #106 on: December 18, 2017, 06:50:55 AM »
Oh man... that took a lot of catching up.  I think Phoenix's post is the closest to how I feel about this now that I've reflected on it over night.  It had some gem-worthy moments, but there were more wat the actual fuq moments.  The big ones listed already - Casino sequence, Leia Poppins, too much ill-placed humour (scratching BB-8 like he's a goddamned puppy!?!?), Luke's character overall, the space-chase, bad utilization of MANY characters - I think that's my biggest beef.  Not to mention a few little nits not mentioned yet:

- why the hell were four Destroyers just sitting on the sidelines watching the Rebels attack the Dreadnaught?
- Space-chase ... why not just jump to hyper space a few parsecs ahead, then jump back right in front of the fleeing rebels?
- Maz... who the hell is going to take a phone call in the middle of a shoot-out?!?!?
- Ackbar should've been the one to hyperspace the cruiser thru Snoke's ship - that would've been far more satisfying (as a great tip of the cap to an original character) than to give it to a (literally) throw away character.
- I'm a little conflicted that Ren goes from 'knowing what he has to do' and killing his father dad, to sparing Rey and killing Snoke this time around.  I get his motivation of 'letting go of the past... letting it die', but how is someone so far down the dark path with his master that he'll just turn on him so easily for Rey?  At least in ROTJ, Vader did it for his son.

The overall story definitely felt like a stitching together of some of best elements of ESB and ROTJ, it doesn't take much to see that.  I hope that means they will finally do something ORIGINAL with ep9 - they've run out of ideas to repurpose.

I'm really struggling to give this a 6/10.  The great parts were great; the bad parts were prequel bad.
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Offline Nekov

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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Last Jedi
« Reply #107 on: December 18, 2017, 09:04:17 AM »
I'm still not sure where I stand on this one. I think I had high expectations and that's one of the things that's bumming me a little. As Blob said, the story could have been told in a better way and the humour is just misplaced most of the time. I need to give it some time to sink in and re-watch it before I pass more judgement on it.


Rose also comes from nothing, yet she also becomes a hero in the end after saving Finn! That slave boy on the casino planet also can

What I didn't like
  • The burning of the Jedi temple tree, and the ancient Jedi texts didn't work for me. This doesn't strike me as something Yoda would do

Well, at the end there is a cameo of Finn opening a drawer in the millenium falcon where you can see the Jedi text books. So Yoda knew pretty well that the Jedi Order would go on even if the tree wasn't there. He was just pushing Luke to do the right thing.

It's not even Leia force pulling herself back to the ship. It's the fact that the Force somehow allowed her to survive in space in unimagineably cold temperatures and, you know, being in a vacuum!

Well, according to real science and not movie science, you don't immediately die in a vacum, you can actually survive for a couple of minutes without freezing or exploding because of pressure diffrence. Even if that was the case, SW space works differently than normal space so that may also be a reason why she doesn't die immediately.

It's not even Leia force pulling herself back to the ship. It's the fact that the Force somehow allowed her to survive in space in unimagineably cold temperatures and, you know, being in a vacuum! I don't mind (too much) some of the other force stuff that we saw in this movie, that had never been part of Star Wars lore. But the Leia thing infuriates me. She's not even a strong force user (not that I think anyone should be able to do what she did). She was sucked out into space and then unconscious! Even if you could do something to survive in space using the force (which I call bullshit on) she was unconscious! It make it look more like there was divine intervention or some bullshit. The more I think about it the more it annoys me. Luke, Vader, the emperor, they were all mortal men who could be killed like any other. If you are going to make force users more like gods then I'll be pissed off with where they take the films next!

Rant over.......for now

Basically that was my issue. The move itself wasn't a problem, it was the circumstances of being pulled out into space and unconscious/dead, and Leia not being a force user as far as we've been shown, just force sensitive.

Good point. I'm pretty sure in the EU she trained and was able to use the force but in the films she's only ever been shown to be force sensitive. That was partly why I didn't like the bit with the kids force grabbing the broom at the end. In Star Wars lore (up until this point) you have to be trained to be able to do shit like that. No one just DOES it. Actually Rey was the first to just DO stuff in TFA, with no training. But I didn't mind that as much as she was shown to be way stronger than any other untrained force user. Plus the force had awoken in her, she was special (potentially the real chosen one to bring balance to the force). Unless this kid is in the next film (and a total badass) this doesn't sit well with me.

Well, I think Disney said that anything outside the movies was not part of the cannon anymore so whatever happened in the EU is inconsecuential. We can just assume that Luke gave her some training on the basinc use of the force just in case.
And regarding people not using the force without training, I think we can safely say Anakin did in episode I because there is no way a kid could succeeed in those races without some help of the force in order to react at that speed or some can of ability to forsee what was coming.
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Offline lordxizor

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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Last Jedi
« Reply #108 on: December 18, 2017, 10:46:15 AM »
As I've read comments from the director of TLJ and other things, I find it a little disturbing that it seems like they didn't have the whole storyline plotted out for these three movies. The director made some comment that he decided Rey would have parents that were nobody important. How was that not something that was already determined before TFA was even filmed? It also seemed like he just decided that he didn't want to bother with some of the set-ups from TFA (Snoke's backstory, where Maz got Luke's lightsaber, etc). Again, how were these things not already established up front? Maybe Ep 9 will reveal answers to some of these questions, but it seems to me that the basic plot on things that were meant to be carried over between movies should have been defined up front.

I don't necessarily think these things detract from TLJ, though it will detract from the whole trilogy if they go unanswered. Mostly it will make TFA worse in retrospect if it's just decided that these things don't matter after all. With JJ Abrams back at the helm for Ep. 9 maybe he'll make a point to close the loop on some of these things.

Offline Implode

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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Last Jedi
« Reply #109 on: December 18, 2017, 10:48:56 AM »
I think the TLJ made it really obvious that they didn't have a concrete plan across all three movies.  :-\

Offline lordxizor

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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Last Jedi
« Reply #110 on: December 18, 2017, 11:40:14 AM »
I guess it became pretty clear over time that George Lucas was just making things up as he went along, so it's probably not that big of a deal, but I still find it bizarre they wouldn't have had it all mapped out from the start.

Offline gmillerdrake

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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Last Jedi
« Reply #111 on: December 18, 2017, 12:41:15 PM »
I still find it bizarre they wouldn't have had it all mapped out from the start.

But we don't really know if they haven't mapped it out over three movies because there is still one to go. How do we know Ren wasn't lying to Rey about her lineage or that Snoke is really even dead? Dude's body before he died looked like he'd been put back together a few dozen times anyway. Even if he is dead and that is that......so what? Who made the big deal about Snoke's backstory? It wasn't anyone in TFA it was the fans wanting to know. It'd be cool to know but is it really all that important?

And if Rey is just the daughter of some bums it fits in just fine with the them of TLJ.......if she happens to be the kid of Palpatine's third cousin or A love child of Vadar then cool. Luke will most likely still make an appearance or two as a Force Ghost like Yoda so he's not really gone either.....But until the final scene of the last film we can't say for certain they haven't mapped it out.



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Offline lordxizor

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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Last Jedi
« Reply #112 on: December 18, 2017, 12:47:21 PM »
They definitely could have had it figured out from the beginning. My suspicion is based more on TLJ's director's comments and some other things I've read than the events of the movies themselves that make me think it wasn't planned out.
« Last Edit: December 18, 2017, 12:59:54 PM by lordxizor »

Offline twosuitsluke

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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Last Jedi
« Reply #113 on: December 18, 2017, 05:20:32 PM »
Oh man... that took a lot of catching up.  I think Phoenix's post is the closest to how I feel about this now that I've reflected on it over night.  It had some gem-worthy moments, but there were more wat the actual fuq moments.  The big ones listed already - Casino sequence, Leia Poppins, too much ill-placed humour (scratching BB-8 like he's a goddamned puppy!?!?), Luke's character overall, the space-chase, bad utilization of MANY characters - I think that's my biggest beef.  Not to mention a few little nits not mentioned yet:

- why the hell were four Destroyers just sitting on the sidelines watching the Rebels attack the Dreadnaught?
- Space-chase ... why not just jump to hyper space a few parsecs ahead, then jump back right in front of the fleeing rebels?
- Maz... who the hell is going to take a phone call in the middle of a shoot-out?!?!?
- Ackbar should've been the one to hyperspace the cruiser thru Snoke's ship - that would've been far more satisfying (as a great tip of the cap to an original character) than to give it to a (literally) throw away character.
- I'm a little conflicted that Ren goes from 'knowing what he has to do' and killing his father dad, to sparing Rey and killing Snoke this time around.  I get his motivation of 'letting go of the past... letting it die', but how is someone so far down the dark path with his master that he'll just turn on him so easily for Rey?  At least in ROTJ, Vader did it for his son.

The overall story definitely felt like a stitching together of some of best elements of ESB and ROTJ, it doesn't take much to see that.  I hope that means they will finally do something ORIGINAL with ep9 - they've run out of ideas to repurpose.

I'm really struggling to give this a 6/10.  The great parts were great; the bad parts were prequel bad.

Yep, I can agree with pretty much all of this. I also agree that Phoenix's post is closest to how I feel about this film.

It's not even Leia force pulling herself back to the ship. It's the fact that the Force somehow allowed her to survive in space in unimagineably cold temperatures and, you know, being in a vacuum! I don't mind (too much) some of the other force stuff that we saw in this movie, that had never been part of Star Wars lore. But the Leia thing infuriates me. She's not even a strong force user (not that I think anyone should be able to do what she did). She was sucked out into space and then unconscious! Even if you could do something to survive in space using the force (which I call bullshit on) she was unconscious! It make it look more like there was divine intervention or some bullshit. The more I think about it the more it annoys me. Luke, Vader, the emperor, they were all mortal men who could be killed like any other. If you are going to make force users more like gods then I'll be pissed off with where they take the films next!

Rant over.......for now

Basically that was my issue. The move itself wasn't a problem, it was the circumstances of being pulled out into space and unconscious/dead, and Leia not being a force user as far as we've been shown, just force sensitive.

Good point. I'm pretty sure in the EU she trained and was able to use the force but in the films she's only ever been shown to be force sensitive. That was partly why I didn't like the bit with the kids force grabbing the broom at the end. In Star Wars lore (up until this point) you have to be trained to be able to do shit like that. No one just DOES it. Actually Rey was the first to just DO stuff in TFA, with no training. But I didn't mind that as much as she was shown to be way stronger than any other untrained force user. Plus the force had awoken in her, she was special (potentially the real chosen one to bring balance to the force). Unless this kid is in the next film (and a total badass) this doesn't sit well with me.

Well, I think Disney said that anything outside the movies was not part of the cannon anymore so whatever happened in the EU is inconsecuential. We can just assume that Luke gave her some training on the basinc use of the force just in case.
And regarding people not using the force without training, I think we can safely say Anakin did in episode I because there is no way a kid could succeeed in those races without some help of the force in order to react at that speed or some can of ability to forsee what was coming.

I know that the EU is no longer canon but even within the original trilogy (and prequel trilogy) no untrained force user can force grab/throw etc. In the original trilogy Luke is not able to do anything like that until he has had training (and the force is strong with him). The same with Anakin, he only learns to do this once he starts training. In regards to Podracing, it is explained that Anakin has lightening quick reflexes. This is a by-product of being a force user, regardless of training. It was the same with Luke in the OT, he was said to be the best pilot on Tatooine and could "shoot the tail of a Wamp Rat". This is not the same as being trained to lift rocks using the force. Luke wasn't shown to be using the force, like a Jedi would, until he started training. That was the same for Anakin.

I know that Disney can now take Star Wars in any direction they want but I feel they need to respect the source material. Some people like fresh things being added in but I feel they have to respect the world this story is told in and what has previously been shown to be possible/impossible. If they suddenly decided to allow force users to fly and shoot lasers from their eyes, would we be cool with that? That's why I don't like the Leia in space scene. If you are going to do that then why not just have her flying around in space and never travelling in a ship at all??

Star Wars is just something that has been a big part of my life for the entirety of it. I have watched all the films, read countless books, played the computer games, learnt all the character names/planets/races/vehicles etc. I feel like I have a good grasp on what Star Wars is, better than most. I know there will people who know even more than me though, I'm not saying I know it all. The EU (at least the books I read) all kept within the universe that George Lucas built and never felt out of place. I know there are plenty of casual fans out there and that's fine. But when a film feels like it has been directed by a casual fan, that's when it angers me. I feel like that anyone who directs a SW film should know the series inside and out. Unfortunately TLJ doesn't feel like this to me.

Offline bosk1

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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Last Jedi
« Reply #114 on: December 18, 2017, 05:26:49 PM »
Well, at the end there is a cameo of Finn opening a drawer in the millenium falcon where you can see the Jedi text books. So Yoda knew pretty well that the Jedi Order would go on even if the tree wasn't there. He was just pushing Luke to do the right thing.

???  How was that a cameo?  Finn is a major character in the trilogy.
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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Last Jedi
« Reply #115 on: December 18, 2017, 05:30:48 PM »
Well, at the end there is a cameo of Finn opening a drawer in the millenium falcon where you can see the Jedi text books. So Yoda knew pretty well that the Jedi Order would go on even if the tree wasn't there. He was just pushing Luke to do the right thing.

???  How was that a cameo?  Finn is a major character in the trilogy.

I think he just meant a shot of finn. In Nekov's country, the wort for shot, and the word for cameo are very closely related.
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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Last Jedi
« Reply #116 on: December 18, 2017, 09:18:48 PM »
They definitely could have had it figured out from the beginning. My suspicion is based more on TLJ's director's comments and some other things I've read than the events of the movies themselves that make me think it wasn't planned out.

Which to me is inexcusable and a discredit to the Star Wars universe. If the MCU can at least kind of map out and keep faith to the general overall universe they've created, you'd think they'd attempt to do the same for the massive guaranteed fanbase that comes with SW. We're really not that hard of a fanbase to please, they just seem to be trying to please everyone instead of just committing to a complete and intriguing story.
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Offline gmillerdrake

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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Last Jedi
« Reply #117 on: December 18, 2017, 10:05:13 PM »
I guess I just don't subscribe to the thought that since they've either punted Reys true lineage reveal OR the fact she really is a nobody chosen by the force as an indication they haven't planned it out. And, if they left Snokes story as is or chose to elaborate.....agsin, doesn't mean there isn't a plan in place.

They've used Luke,his lore and his incredible Jedi feat of projecting himself across light years and galaxies to spark the rebellion...a rebellion that was all but dead but in the next film will be rebuilt and strong again thanks to him. That appears to have been planned out.

They've connected Rey and Ren in a way that surely is going to play out over the next film......Benicio del Torrid character will most likely play a role in the next film.....I mean, there is an underlying story going on.

If they had made Reys parental reveal a more appealing and fan approved reveal people would be bitching that it was an Empire rehash..... "So lame they used the second film to reveal just like Empire" and so on. The "reveal" works for the narrative of that movie of the nobody's becoming someone  AND the fact Ren can't be trusted to have told her the truth 

I was a bit turned off after the first viewing but something happened the second time around d where it really clicked for me. I like it a lot.
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Offline Adami

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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Last Jedi
« Reply #118 on: December 18, 2017, 10:08:25 PM »
I think Rey's parents being nobodies is actually an important plot point that plays right into the entire theme of the force that Luke said.

It's not just for special people, it's for anybody. That's why that random kid was able to use it at the end. They emphasize that by saying Rey isn't special. She has no crazy lineage. She's just a person. If she can master the force, so can other people. You don't have to be a Skywalker or anything.

So I, personally, hope they maintain that her parents are just random nobodies. I like that message way more than needing to be from some elite group to be special.
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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Last Jedi
« Reply #119 on: December 18, 2017, 10:49:25 PM »
I think Rey's parents being nobodies is actually an important plot point that plays right into the entire theme of the force that Luke said.

It's not just for special people, it's for anybody. That's why that random kid was able to use it at the end. They emphasize that by saying Rey isn't special. She has no crazy lineage. She's just a person. If she can master the force, so can other people. You don't have to be a Skywalker or anything.

So I, personally, hope they maintain that her parents are just random nobodies. I like that message way more than needing to be from some elite group to be special.

I agree 100%, it was the theme of the movie. Curious as to why thatís not good enough for some people? (Not specifically here)
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Offline Adami

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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Last Jedi
« Reply #120 on: December 18, 2017, 10:51:42 PM »
I think Rey's parents being nobodies is actually an important plot point that plays right into the entire theme of the force that Luke said.

It's not just for special people, it's for anybody. That's why that random kid was able to use it at the end. They emphasize that by saying Rey isn't special. She has no crazy lineage. She's just a person. If she can master the force, so can other people. You don't have to be a Skywalker or anything.

So I, personally, hope they maintain that her parents are just random nobodies. I like that message way more than needing to be from some elite group to be special.

I agree 100%, it was the theme of the movie. Curious as to why thatís not good enough for some people? (Not specifically here)

I had a considerable amount of problems with this movie. Rey's parents being nobodies wasn't one of them. In fact, the big mystery around it from Force Awakens onward was incredibly annoying and dumb, so I really hope JJ doesn't undo it and just leaves it be.
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Offline Polarbear

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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Last Jedi
« Reply #121 on: December 18, 2017, 11:51:01 PM »
Saw it with a couple of my friends yesterday, i really like this movie now! Two friends i was with, loved it.

I agree with gmillerdrake's previous posts. What he said feels closest to how i feel right now!

Everything just seemed to fall into place on the second viewing. Canto Bight excursion felt shorter, and was a nice change of scenery from the rest of the movie. Luke being a "failed legend" was really compelling. Leia's space walk didn't bother me as much. The themes of "Heroes can come from anywhere", and "Failure being the best teacher" hit home strongly on the second viewing.

This movie is easily better than Rogue One, and might even be better than TFA. Don't know if i prefer it over any of the originals right now..

Also about the trilogy being mapped out. I disagree! That would have seriously tied Johnson's hands when making this movie. From what i've read, there is an end game planned. But how the trilogy gets there, is yet to be decided.

Offline BlackInk

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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Last Jedi
« Reply #122 on: December 19, 2017, 12:26:20 AM »
I will post my thoughts on the movie at some point, but I have so many opinions that I need to gather my thoughts some more. Iíve even considered making a video because thereís so much to say.

For now though, I would just like to let you all know that just because youíre out of a planetís atmosphere doesnít mean that youíre also out of its gravitational pull. It would never have occured to me to be a viable criticism for a Star Wars movie, but if it makes anyone feel any better, the bombs dropping in that moment was completely scientificly correct.

EDIT: Also, thatís assuming that the bombs werenít machanically propelled downwards by the massive contraption they were placed in.
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Offline Polarbear

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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Last Jedi
« Reply #123 on: December 19, 2017, 01:25:32 AM »
I hate to overanalyze, but it seemed pretty clear to me that those launching devices on the bomber propelled the bombs downwards..

Offline Logain Ablar

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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Last Jedi
« Reply #124 on: December 19, 2017, 01:57:52 AM »
I'm ok with Rey's parents not being anyone of significance. I went into this movie with almost a blank slate of expectations, but that was one thing I was hoping they wouldn't do. To make her the daughter of a Skywalker or Kenobi would have seemed a bit too contrived for me.

The other thing I was hoping was that Snoke didn't turn out to be this Darth Plagueis character, somebody who's only mentioned briefly in ROTS. I'm ok with his background not being explained, just like the Emperor's wasn't, but I still feel he was dispatched far too easily.

I'll be going to see it again this Saturday, so we'll see if my opinions change any.
« Last Edit: December 19, 2017, 05:16:12 AM by Logain Ablar »

Offline bl5150

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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Last Jedi
« Reply #125 on: December 19, 2017, 03:48:43 AM »
Well I have seen the first hour or so....... >:(

Took my son along tonight and the movie stopped at the first appearance of Snoke.  They then fluffed around for 10 mins and we got a restart that then stopped at the first appearance of Luke - same thing.  Then at the one hour mark water started flooding in through the roof (massive storms outside) and we were evacuated.  The freaking force ain't with me I can tell ya  ::)

What I saw I thought was okay - visually spectacular but I just don't have the connection with characters like Finn and Po  vs the movies I grew up with. They don't drive me nuts like Hayden C did in the prequels but I just don't find them particularly convincing or likeable. 

Not sure if I can be bothered making the trip again based on what I saw.......  Ben (son) and I were pumped to see it but really flat after the initial viewing being stuffed.  We might just wait for the stream on cable.
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Offline Nekov

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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Last Jedi
« Reply #126 on: December 19, 2017, 06:03:45 AM »
Well, at the end there is a cameo of Finn opening a drawer in the millenium falcon where you can see the Jedi text books. So Yoda knew pretty well that the Jedi Order would go on even if the tree wasn't there. He was just pushing Luke to do the right thing.

???  How was that a cameo?  Finn is a major character in the trilogy.

I think he just meant a shot of finn. In Nekov's country, the wort for shot, and the word for cameo are very closely related.

Sorry if cameo is not the correct word, as Adami says it was a shot of Finn opening a drawer, I just used that word becuase it was short and if people weren't paying attention they might have missed it.
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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Last Jedi
« Reply #127 on: December 19, 2017, 08:42:02 AM »
I think Rey's parents being nobodies is actually an important plot point that plays right into the entire theme of the force that Luke said.

It's not just for special people, it's for anybody. That's why that random kid was able to use it at the end. They emphasize that by saying Rey isn't special. She has no crazy lineage. She's just a person. If she can master the force, so can other people. You don't have to be a Skywalker or anything.

So I, personally, hope they maintain that her parents are just random nobodies. I like that message way more than needing to be from some elite group to be special.

I agree 100%, it was the theme of the movie. Curious as to why thatís not good enough for some people? (Not specifically here)
I don't inherently have issues with it. It depends in large part how Episode 9 turns out and what happens after that. I think that the main saga should end after 9 if there are no Skywalkers standing at the end. I suspect that it was supposed to be Leia atoning for her family's failure to close out the Skywalker story in Ep. 9, but now that Carrie Fisher is gone I'm not sure how that works. Luke didn't do enough for Rey in TLJ to make it seem like he's atoning for his or his family's failure through her. I guess that's the only reason I have a potential issue with Rey being unrelated to the Skywalkers, but it all depends on how Ep. 9 plays out.

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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Last Jedi
« Reply #128 on: December 19, 2017, 08:54:18 AM »
While I didn't think the movie was that great, I thought Rey's parents being no one special was actually a good thing. If the Star Wars franchise is going to remain interesting after these movies, we need to move away from the Skywalker extended family and friends.

Offline kaos2900

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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Last Jedi
« Reply #129 on: December 19, 2017, 09:51:44 AM »
As this is the final trilogy of the Skywalker saga a lot of people are assuming that Rey has to be connected to the Skywalker clan. I'm not buying it. I think Kylo was telling the truth and based on the directors explanation as to why he went that direction I have no issues with it. I remember reading that George Lucas considered Anakin/ Vador to be the primary character of the original 6 films. The more I think about it I think that Kylo/Ben is the primary lead of the story. For one he is directly related to Anakin. Two, he's gone full on dark side so I think Luke/Rey will have some influence on his fate in the final film. I'm guessing Rey kills him and the skywalker line goes extinct with the deaths of Luke, Leah, and now Ben. The end of the Skywalker Saga should mean the end of the bloodline.

Read an interesting theory about Rey being a clone made from Luke Hand. Cool idea, but doubt it will happen in the film.

I really hope the story of Snoke is told in some capacity. That's really the only thing I don't like about the film. Don't mind that he was killed, but wish they fleshed him out a bit more. Maybe he was a clone of the emperor?

Also, I hope John Williams lives long enough to finish Episode 9. The score was amazing as always.

I'm guessing Leia's death will be handled in the opening scroll. Maybe she gets assassinated? I do think there will be a time jump of at least a year. 5-10 seems a bit much.

I didn't mind the Maz Kanata scene. She needs to stay relevent since the story of how she got Luke's sabre needs to be told.

I also expect the Knights of Ren to show up and go against Rey's new troop of jedi.

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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Last Jedi
« Reply #130 on: December 19, 2017, 09:58:13 AM »
My beef with Snoke isn't that they didn't give us a back-story (hell, we don't know Yoda's back story - at least in the movie universe).  My beef is they introduce him as a mysterious character in TFA, he's the "supreme leader" and clearly super-powerful with the force, but they kill him off after just a few scenes.  No development in the character at all.  Even Rose is getting better treatment than that.

Ditto with Phasma.  One minor hand-to-hand fight, and the floor collapses ... which begs the question, why didn't Finn's platform collapse along with it?

Lunch bag letdown on those two (supposedly) powerful and menacing characters.
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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Last Jedi
« Reply #131 on: December 19, 2017, 10:05:30 AM »
since the story of how she got Luke's sabre needs to be told.

Does it really need to be told though? I feel like that's the line of thinking that lead to R1, Han Solo stand alone film, Yoda film, and even the prequels. I mean sure. We can take any of these ideas and turn them into great movies, but a lot of times it seems exhausting where people try to find meaning and significance in every little detail, like the people coming up with theories as to who the kid at the end is and how he will be significant. It seems like things can't just happen anymore. We need movies explaining everything.

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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Last Jedi
« Reply #132 on: December 19, 2017, 10:13:49 AM »
I didn't mind the Maz Kanata scene. She needs to stay relevent since the story of how she got Luke's sabre needs to be told.

Agreed on both points.  Yeah, having her expound on where to find the master codebreaker when she is in the middle of a gunfight is ridiculous and silly.  But in a fun, "I can suspend belief for this in this type of movie" kind of way. 

And, yeah, I really hope the lightsaber issue is explained at some point.

I also expect the Knights of Ren to show up and go against Rey's new troop of jedi.

I could be wrong, but I seem to remember reading somewhere awhile back that Snoke's elite guard were the Knights of Ren.
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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Last Jedi
« Reply #133 on: December 19, 2017, 10:18:54 AM »
I didn't mind the Maz Kanata scene. She needs to stay relevent since the story of how she got Luke's sabre needs to be told.

Agreed on both points.  Yeah, having her expound on where to find the master codebreaker when she is in the middle of a gunfight is ridiculous and silly.  But in a fun, "I can suspend belief for this in this type of movie" kind of way. 

And, yeah, I really hope the lightsaber issue is explained at some point.

I also expect the Knights of Ren to show up and go against Rey's new troop of jedi.

I could be wrong, but I seem to remember reading somewhere awhile back that Snoke's elite guard were the Knights of Ren.

I think they are officially called the Praetorean (Spelling) Guard. Everything I've read is they are not the Knights. Could be wrong.

Offline bosk1

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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Last Jedi
« Reply #134 on: December 19, 2017, 10:24:05 AM »
since the story of how she got Luke's sabre needs to be told.

Does it really need to be told though? I feel like that's the line of thinking that lead to R1, Han Solo stand alone film, Yoda film, and even the prequels. I mean sure. We can take any of these ideas and turn them into great movies, but a lot of times it seems exhausting where people try to find meaning and significance in every little detail, like the people coming up with theories as to who the kid at the end is and how he will be significant. It seems like things can't just happen anymore. We need movies explaining everything.

I don't know that it needs to be "told" in terms of getting the whole story.  But a couple lines of exposition could take it from "oh, what a marvelously serendipitous piece of serendipity there" to, "Oh, that makes sense and serves some purpose in the grand scheme of things."  Lucas definitely had his issues, both as a writer, but moreso as a director.  But one thing he did right in the OT was that he could have a few lines of dialog in a conversation give a LOT of exposition without hitting you over the head with "hey, I'm giving you necessary backstory exposition here!"  There isn't screen time given to tell the backstory of Alderaan.  But we have enough in a few lines of dialog to get the impact of its destruction.  We don't get a ton of backstory on the state of the government in ep. IV, but a few lines of dialog aboard the death star tell us enough that we see the empire as a force that is in the process of establishing an authoritarian stranglehold by snuffing out a senate.  We get zero exposition about the conflicts of the past, other than the fact that something called the "clone wars" was somehow a major series of conflicts that happened, and there were a lot of jedi back then, and Anakin was a jedi and ace pilot and jedi himself that had something bad happen to him.  We get that the emperor is VERY strong in the force and not to be trifled with because Vader, who is imposing as it gets from his very first appearance, kneels to this dude and calls him "master."  There was a lot done with few words that kept the mystery, but gave you enough to feel like things had a context.  Personally, I think VII and VIII are better movies overall.  But they lack that simple gift of providing that rich context through only a few lines of dialog or short scenes that gave you enough to make you feel like things had a context and purpose instead of just being random.  To me, the lightsaber thing is one of those areas that needs a bit of filling in to not feel so random and serendipitous. 
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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Last Jedi
« Reply #135 on: December 19, 2017, 10:24:53 AM »
I think they are officially called the Praetorean (Spelling) Guard. Everything I've read is they are not the Knights. Could be wrong.

I think you're right.
That reminds me, when I saw the movie, when one of them got the lightsabre to the face, the entire theater went OOOOHHHHHHHHH :lol Pretty cool fight scene.
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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Last Jedi
« Reply #136 on: December 19, 2017, 10:25:29 AM »
since the story of how she got Luke's sabre needs to be told.

Does it really need to be told though?
It only needs to be told because Maz told us it was a story for another day. Take away that line from TFA and no, it doesn't need to be told. If they choose not to discuss it further it just makes for an annoying inconsistency, but I doubt the story is anything we really need to know.

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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Last Jedi
« Reply #137 on: December 19, 2017, 10:37:45 AM »
big paragraph

Good point. I fully agree with you here. For example, the relationship between the First Order and Republic and exactly what was at stake were things that should've been explained far better, even with a few throwaway lines of dialogue, much like what was done in the OT with things like the origin of Darth Vader.

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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Last Jedi
« Reply #138 on: December 19, 2017, 10:49:35 AM »
My beef with Snoke isn't that they didn't give us a back-story (hell, we don't know Yoda's back story - at least in the movie universe).  My beef is they introduce him as a mysterious character in TFA, he's the "supreme leader" and clearly super-powerful with the force, but they kill him off after just a few scenes. No development in the character at all.  Even Rose is getting better treatment than that.

I thought that was brilliant. Granted, I don't have an emotional investment in the SW franchise so my views are probably not very relevant to the discussion. But, here is Snoke going into cliche super-bad-guy monologue vulgar-display-of-power mode and Kylo takes him down with low cunning and by playing on Snokes hubris. The unexpectedness of it was excellent.

I for one welcome the changes in the franchise. To me, these current movies aren't about what worked in the past for the partisan factions of The Force but is about its evolving influence in the galaxy as a whole. I'm happy to see characters like Snoke, Luke, Yoda, Vader, etc. be consigned to the past. A powerful force user like Rey who balances her compassion and anger is a much more compelling character. I'm actually hoping she ends up convincing Kylo (Ben) to follow her (although, I doubt that's where Disney is going with this.)

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Re: Star Wars Discussion Thread v.The Last Jedi
« Reply #139 on: December 19, 2017, 10:58:32 AM »
@Implode:  Yeah, I think you get me.  I mean, I'm not in favor of giving an origin story to everything.  I had a lot of trepidation about Rogue One being a story that didn't need to be told.  But I think they nailed it, so it's all good.  I think that, while the prequels do some cool things and do some things right, they also highlight how doing too much origin story (especially when not done well) actually takes away from the whole instead of enhancing it.  Unfortunately, I feel like both Vader and Boba Fett and less cool because of the backstories given them in the PT.  That's why I think Solo is a bad idea (I would love to be proven wrong).  But giving a bit of backstory to help things feel real and feel like they have a context is good.  To take another example, killing off Snoke so unceremoniously and not giving him any backstory could very well serve the theme of TLJ that it doesn't matter nearly so much where you've been and how your family is, as much as who YOU are and what YOU do.  It could also be that they were sloppy and didn't have any good ideas.  A bit of expository backstory on things that are important to the fans would, IMO, make us trust those in charge of the film and feel like the Snoke thing was the former and not the latter.  With them not nailing that in a lot of obvious areas leaves doubt.  Does that make sense?

@Podaar:  Agreed.
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