Author Topic: Guns are Icky  (Read 27572 times)

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Offline eric42434224

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Re: Guns are Icky
« Reply #525 on: May 10, 2021, 05:07:03 PM »
We all know that diagnosing mental illness is difficult.  Letís say we create huge and successful programs that can identify everyone that has a mental illness that makes one prone to depression, violence, etc..  Even if the person agrees to be treated, the treatments generally last a very long time, and in the end most are not even cured, but may just be on meds or are just taught coping strategies.  That is in addition to those who simply will refuse to be diagnosed, or treated with therapy and or meds.  How many in ĎMurica wont even wear a mask or take the Covid vaccine.  Think they will participate in a mental health program with meds?

The point is, even if we implement a program the best we possibly can, we are still at the mercy of the right of a person to not participate.....not to mention identifying them in the first place.
So the reality is that we likely will have a big list of people in programs that are in no way to be considered cured, healed, or healthy.
Do we allow those individuals to have guns?

To me it sounds like you canít have one piece of this solution without the other.  Go ahead and create the greatest mental health initiative the world has ever seen.  You will still have huge numbers of people opting out, in progress of healing, or never really healing.  Strong gun control needs to be integral to that process.

The mental health solution really isnít THE solution....even if it works optimally.  Do we allow them to own a gun only after an identified person completes the program and is cured?
Many say ďwe need to address the mental health aspect, not the gun aspectĒ, yet if you really dig in to it, the mental health aspect (with what little we know about the brain) it really doesnít have strong prospects for solving much.

Anyway....just sitting here at my daughters PT and was bored lol.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2021, 05:15:19 PM by eric42434224 »
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Offline cramx3

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Re: Guns are Icky
« Reply #526 on: May 10, 2021, 05:59:39 PM »
As someone who thinks our mental health is a serious issue, including in gun violence, it's wayyyyyyy to nuanced to fix without drastically changing everything in how we live and that's just not going to happen.  I don't believe banning guns is the answer either which sounds like the simple fix, but IMO fixes very little.  It's kind of a sad reality where there isn't a clear fix to a problem and yet the results of us doing nothing are devasting.

Offline lonestar

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Re: Guns are Icky
« Reply #527 on: May 10, 2021, 07:47:21 PM »
Well fuck it then, let's just all accept that random mass shootings are a part of American life, and hope we or someone we love doesn't draw the unlucky number. Seems every gun discussion spends more time on why shit won't work then actually trying to do fucking anything. We're fucked man.

Offline eric42434224

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Re: Guns are Icky
« Reply #528 on: May 10, 2021, 10:02:26 PM »
Well fuck it then, let's just all accept that random mass shootings are a part of American life, and hope we or someone we love doesn't draw the unlucky number. Seems every gun discussion spends more time on why shit won't work then actually trying to do fucking anything. We're fucked man.

Well my point wasn't quite what you're saying.  I actually think we SHOULD try stuff.  I don't like the argument against gun control as if the mental health angle is the correct solution, as if they can't both possibly work, or that they are mutually exclusive.  Whatever solution ends up working will likely be a set of many solutions.  I also don't like the idea that all the data needs to support a solution prior to even considering it.  There are many ideas where the data did not support success, that ended up working....and vice-versa.  This problem is so wide in its scope, with such varied details, that maybe we need solutions that are counter-intuitive, or out-of-the-box, or when paired with other things end up working even with poor data.
History is littered with stories of success coming from unlikely sources, from outright mistakes, or even from actions that were poo-pooed at the time. (But the data says.....but conventional wisdom says.....but that will never work cause *insert excuse*).
Sometimes perfect really is the enemy of good.  Sometimes we get paralyzed with inaction because we don't have assurances or guarantees our course of action will work.
If we as a society truly feel this is an issue that needs to be addressed with the MASSIVE undertaking required to actually make a difference, I think we need to take some chances.
/end rant lol
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Offline El Barto

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Re: Guns are Icky
« Reply #529 on: May 11, 2021, 08:48:00 AM »
Well fuck it then, let's just all accept that random mass shootings are a part of American life, and hope we or someone we love doesn't draw the unlucky number. Seems every gun discussion spends more time on why shit won't work then actually trying to do fucking anything. We're fucked man.
That's what I did ages ago. Shit happens. And it's not that I like this approach, we should be better than that, but I realize that we simply aren't. The reality is that we the people are playing a very different game than the powers that be. We'd like a solution. Or at least we think we would. Our oligarchical overseers prefer the pointless bickering. The people are happy to play their game. We like bickering.

Stadler mentioned assault rifle bans. This is probably the best example. I've decided that one thing Joe Biden and the NRA are in complete agreement about is that they're meaningless. They serve no purpose and cause no ill effects. If you ban assault rifles people will just trade them in for the same rifles minus the scary looking features, and they'll still find ways to kill each other in large numbers. They're perfect bogeymen, though. You can fight over them all day long and the outcome, should one side ever prevail, is meaningless.
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Offline cramx3

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Re: Guns are Icky
« Reply #530 on: May 11, 2021, 10:05:39 AM »
Well fuck it then, let's just all accept that random mass shootings are a part of American life, and hope we or someone we love doesn't draw the unlucky number. Seems every gun discussion spends more time on why shit won't work then actually trying to do fucking anything. We're fucked man.

I'm not really keen on the idea of being idle as people kill each other, but I honestly have no idea how to solve the problem. 

That's what I did ages ago. Shit happens. And it's not that I like this approach, we should be better than that, but I realize that we simply aren't.

Sadly, this is my personal approach.  I don't think there's anything I can say or do to change things.  I don't even like talking about it anymore because it's been the same conversation for so long now.  However, I'd like to wish our leadership could agree on something.  At least test the waters on ideas and see what happens.

Offline Stadler

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Re: Guns are Icky
« Reply #531 on: May 11, 2021, 11:07:13 AM »
Well fuck it then, let's just all accept that random mass shootings are a part of American life, and hope we or someone we love doesn't draw the unlucky number. Seems every gun discussion spends more time on why shit won't work then actually trying to do fucking anything. We're fucked man.

Can't speak for anyone other than myself, but I never once ever said, or even hinted, that we should "accept" this or learn to live with it.  Just the opposite.   It's unfortunate that the answer isn't a pill, or a tweet, or a quick law, but that's the way things go sometimes.   For me, the first step is changing the tone of the narrative and start being honest with ourselves.  THAT'S the trick.   We did it with other things, I think we can do it here.  We just need the will.

We can also try to become more consistent across our messaging and our platforms.  The COVID thread is chock full of discussion about science, and basing our decision-making on hard data and not just guesses, but that doesn't seem to hold here; we seem to be stuck in a gut-feel "common sense" (which is neither) analysis that fundamentally does not understand "causation", "correlation", and "coincidence".  We HAVE information, we don't seem to want to act on it.  We're still stuck in the "sides" mode, pointing fingers and making fun of people that don't seem to see the world the way we do ("muh guns!" is a common one) instead of getting down to hard truths.  Sure, put in background checks, but make them calibrated to what we're looking for as opposed to a method to surveil those who don't fit nicely into a political category.

I will say this - and this might need a separate thread at this point - but more than ever, our education system is on the block to start making changes that benefit all of us, not just administrators or those with the agenda du jour.  SO MANY of the problems we're dealing with now are rooted in childhood and early adulthood, and we're not keeping up with the advances we're being forced to deal with (social media is just one).  I think we need to add to our curriculum; we have math, science, reading and physical education, but it's time for a "mental education" module.   It's important to remember, we're not talking about mental ILLNESS, at least not as it's currently discussed (this is in one of the links above); the people committing these crimes are not typically those suffering from major, chronic mental illness, but rather we're talking about something more systemic (there's a word for you!) in nature.  But it goes beyond mass killings; we're not just talking about keeping people alive, we're talking about keeping them out of doctors' offices, we're talking about keeping them productive and in the work force, we're talking about a host of other things that have perhaps less proximate but no less tangible impacts to our society. 

Offline eric42434224

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Re: Guns are Icky
« Reply #532 on: May 11, 2021, 11:43:14 AM »
I think that ďcurriculum ď needs to start, and focus, at home.....not in a classroom.  It wont be effective at all if doesnít originate from, and is fully supported at home. 
Also, we need to fix our education system first as well.  It isnít even truly effective at teaching academics, has teachers paid shit, and is used as day care by many.  Adding in a complex and nuanced responsibility to overworked and under paid teachers is doomed to fail.  If we want the school route to be effective, there is a shit ton of work to do on that system first.
And again, if it isnít reinforced at home, it wonít work anyway.

There is a lot to fix in the foundation before we start adding on rooms and remodeling bathrooms.
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Offline lonestar

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Re: Guns are Icky
« Reply #533 on: May 11, 2021, 11:58:03 AM »
My post was more angled at my own feelings of futility. It just seems that the majority are so focused on why things won't/can't work instead of just trying some things.

Offline Stadler

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Re: Guns are Icky
« Reply #534 on: May 11, 2021, 12:05:01 PM »
Well fuck it then, let's just all accept that random mass shootings are a part of American life, and hope we or someone we love doesn't draw the unlucky number. Seems every gun discussion spends more time on why shit won't work then actually trying to do fucking anything. We're fucked man.

I'm not really keen on the idea of being idle as people kill each other, but I honestly have no idea how to solve the problem. 

That's what I did ages ago. Shit happens. And it's not that I like this approach, we should be better than that, but I realize that we simply aren't.

Sadly, this is my personal approach.  I don't think there's anything I can say or do to change things.  I don't even like talking about it anymore because it's been the same conversation for so long now.  However, I'd like to wish our leadership could agree on something.  At least test the waters on ideas and see what happens.

It's awkward to write about - since it's not me - and so I don't want to give too many details, but I've tried to make my little corner of the world a little better.   I've been in therapy off and on since 2008, on since 2014 or so, and I've tried to be open with my kids and treat that fact with little or no shame or embarrassment.  Not always easy, but I'm proud to say that three of my four kids have proactively reached out on their own for more help than they can give themselves or they can get from their friends or Google searches.   And the fourth is in therapy as well, though he's a minor so it wasn't his decision.   INB4 the money conversation; I cover one of the kids, one is "free" through the school system, and the other two are in some form or fashion from programs available to them through the community.

I have no idea if any of these kids are future dangerous actors or not, but even short of that, they are hopefully good, hopefully productive people that are breaking the cycle of silence, and can influence their partners and their kids to be better people.  Maybe even if there isn't a future Adam Lanza in there, we can avoid a future Jon Schaeffer by preaching the importance of inclusion - not diversity, but inclusion - and in keeping lines of communication open even when those lines are difficult or hard to swallow.  Absent any of that, I know for me, I think just being kinder and more tolerant - TRULY tolerant, including of those for whom it's hard to muster any compassion or sympathy - is a start.  Stop with the name-calling, stop with the cancelling, stop with the divisiveness, stop with the marginalization; all those things that drive insecurity and isolation and which feed these chronic problems we're seeing more and more of.

Offline Stadler

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Re: Guns are Icky
« Reply #535 on: May 11, 2021, 12:07:16 PM »
I think that ďcurriculum ď needs to start, and focus, at home.....not in a classroom.  It wont be effective at all if doesnít originate from, and is fully supported at home. 
Also, we need to fix our education system first as well.  It isnít even truly effective at teaching academics, has teachers paid shit, and is used as day care by many.  Adding in a complex and nuanced responsibility to overworked and under paid teachers is doomed to fail.  If we want the school route to be effective, there is a shit ton of work to do on that system first.
And again, if it isnít reinforced at home, it wonít work anyway.

There is a lot to fix in the foundation before we start adding on rooms and remodeling bathrooms.

Don't disagree at all; the "good" (in quotes because, well, none of it is "good") part is that COVID has helped to expose some of these weaknesses even further.  I know one of my kids didn't learn a damn thing during COVID, but we - wifey and I - have some tools and data to use now that we're getting back to in person learning. 

Offline Stadler

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Re: Guns are Icky
« Reply #536 on: May 11, 2021, 12:09:52 PM »
My post was more angled at my own feelings of futility. It just seems that the majority are so focused on why things won't/can't work instead of just trying some things.

 :tup

And mine had zero snark, and zero sarcasm.  I just used yours as a jumping off point.  I know that for all I wrote, I too feel like it's pushing a rope up hill sometimes.

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Re: Guns are Icky
« Reply #537 on: May 11, 2021, 01:21:30 PM »
Well fuck it then, let's just all accept that random mass shootings are a part of American life, and hope we or someone we love doesn't draw the unlucky number. Seems every gun discussion spends more time on why shit won't work then actually trying to do fucking anything. We're fucked man.

I'm not really keen on the idea of being idle as people kill each other, but I honestly have no idea how to solve the problem. 

That's what I did ages ago. Shit happens. And it's not that I like this approach, we should be better than that, but I realize that we simply aren't.

Sadly, this is my personal approach.  I don't think there's anything I can say or do to change things.  I don't even like talking about it anymore because it's been the same conversation for so long now.  However, I'd like to wish our leadership could agree on something.  At least test the waters on ideas and see what happens.

It's awkward to write about - since it's not me - and so I don't want to give too many details, but I've tried to make my little corner of the world a little better.   I've been in therapy off and on since 2008, on since 2014 or so, and I've tried to be open with my kids and treat that fact with little or no shame or embarrassment.  Not always easy, but I'm proud to say that three of my four kids have proactively reached out on their own for more help than they can give themselves or they can get from their friends or Google searches.   And the fourth is in therapy as well, though he's a minor so it wasn't his decision.   INB4 the money conversation; I cover one of the kids, one is "free" through the school system, and the other two are in some form or fashion from programs available to them through the community.

I have no idea if any of these kids are future dangerous actors or not, but even short of that, they are hopefully good, hopefully productive people that are breaking the cycle of silence, and can influence their partners and their kids to be better people.  Maybe even if there isn't a future Adam Lanza in there, we can avoid a future Jon Schaeffer by preaching the importance of inclusion - not diversity, but inclusion - and in keeping lines of communication open even when those lines are difficult or hard to swallow.  Absent any of that, I know for me, I think just being kinder and more tolerant - TRULY tolerant, including of those for whom it's hard to muster any compassion or sympathy - is a start.  Stop with the name-calling, stop with the cancelling, stop with the divisiveness, stop with the marginalization; all those things that drive insecurity and isolation and which feed these chronic problems we're seeing more and more of.

These are the things we, as individuals, can do.  And to go back to what Eric was saying, a lot of this starts in your home.  That's what we can control and we (generally) need to be better at it.  It definitely does start at this level to want to strive to be better and support our children to also be better.  But that's not solving the problems we can't control outside our homes and kind of leaves me back to that hopelessness of not being able to solve this problem. 

Online Ben_Jamin

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Re: Guns are Icky
« Reply #538 on: May 11, 2021, 10:59:17 PM »
However, I'd like to wish our leadership could agree on something.  At least test the waters on ideas and see what happens.


This has to be one of my biggest issues with our leadership. It's like, why are you guys bickering at each other. We Need Action, and why not just  agree and let them try it out. If it works, great, if not then, you can try it your way. At least, give it a chance to actually implement it and test it out. That way we can actually see if it does work in Reality.

Our Ideas are only Ideas, until they are put into action, only then will we see and realize whether they are good or bad ideas.

And in history, people have tried some of these ideas, and they didn't work. Doesn't mean you should disregard them. You look at what went wrong, and try and fix it. You look for other ways that can maybe help solve the problem. You just don't give up because it's hard. You push through, to reach the princess, even though the princess is in another castle... :biggrin:

I do not understand why our leaders are so bent on being on the right side of history, that their ego's are preventing actual action to be done, rather than spending lifetimes arguing over who gets to push the boat out to sea.

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Re: Guns are Icky
« Reply #539 on: May 11, 2021, 11:38:38 PM »
I think that ďcurriculum ď needs to start, and focus, at home.....not in a classroom.  It wont be effective at all if doesnít originate from, and is fully supported at home. 
Also, we need to fix our education system first as well.  It isnít even truly effective at teaching academics, has teachers paid shit, and is used as day care by many.  Adding in a complex and nuanced responsibility to overworked and under paid teachers is doomed to fail.  If we want the school route to be effective, there is a shit ton of work to do on that system first.
And again, if it isnít reinforced at home, it wonít work anyway.

There is a lot to fix in the foundation before we start adding on rooms and remodeling bathrooms.

But how do we start with the focus at home, if the parents do not know of these values to teach their children?

Educational Institutions reflect the values of the current Society. The Education Systems Institutions are failing at teaching the values the current society needs. And Parents in these modern times, rely on these Educational Institutions to teach their kids these values. Basically, Parents end up relying too much on that education system, that they forget they are the ones that are responsible for teaching their kids values. Parents, then start to demand that these institutions teach their child these values that they themselves should be responsible for teaching their own children. In turn, it puts a burden and overwhelms the Educational System. As the Education System starts to implement a "one size fits all" solution to the burden, easing the overwhelming demand for these values, the parents then complain because they aren't teaching them the values they want. It's a no-win situation for the schools.

This isn't even including the demand that the workforce is putting on the Parents themselves, that parents are ending up sacrificing the time with their kids for time their job requires. Parents are having to figure out ways to balance the time spent with their child and making the money to support the child. There are those that have no choice but to spend more time at work to make just enough money to be able to barely sustain the child, and this includes the insane cost of diapers, wipes and formula, basic necessities a baby needs to survive. Therefore, the parent is not able to spend time with their child for their schooling and learning of these values. These people have no family, or friends, or anyone to rely upon. They rely on the institutions. It's precisely why Daycares exist.

And then that child grows up and sees his parent struggling, and gets upset because their parent doesn't have the time for them. So they end up acting out, and start being "the delinquent" and getting bad grades, and being suspended. Or in these cases, hide it, and when bullying happens, this is where the boiling point can boil over. And however which way the child has access to a gun, and there are many ways to get a gun, they will act out the quick response. And this ends up being, shooting up the school or some other area, their parents or shooting themselves.

This Issue isn't and won't ever have a quick solution. It's a really big issue that requires a lot of inter-connecting areas that we need to figure out and understand how they are a part of this main issue that is currently being so detrimental to society.
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Online Ben_Jamin

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Re: Guns are Icky
« Reply #540 on: May 11, 2021, 11:53:56 PM »
Well fuck it then, let's just all accept that random mass shootings are a part of American life, and hope we or someone we love doesn't draw the unlucky number. Seems every gun discussion spends more time on why shit won't work then actually trying to do fucking anything. We're fucked man.

I'm not really keen on the idea of being idle as people kill each other, but I honestly have no idea how to solve the problem. 

That's what I did ages ago. Shit happens. And it's not that I like this approach, we should be better than that, but I realize that we simply aren't.

Sadly, this is my personal approach.  I don't think there's anything I can say or do to change things.  I don't even like talking about it anymore because it's been the same conversation for so long now.  However, I'd like to wish our leadership could agree on something.  At least test the waters on ideas and see what happens.

It's awkward to write about - since it's not me - and so I don't want to give too many details, but I've tried to make my little corner of the world a little better.   I've been in therapy off and on since 2008, on since 2014 or so, and I've tried to be open with my kids and treat that fact with little or no shame or embarrassment.  Not always easy, but I'm proud to say that three of my four kids have proactively reached out on their own for more help than they can give themselves or they can get from their friends or Google searches.   And the fourth is in therapy as well, though he's a minor so it wasn't his decision.   INB4 the money conversation; I cover one of the kids, one is "free" through the school system, and the other two are in some form or fashion from programs available to them through the community.

I have no idea if any of these kids are future dangerous actors or not, but even short of that, they are hopefully good, hopefully productive people that are breaking the cycle of silence, and can influence their partners and their kids to be better people.  Maybe even if there isn't a future Adam Lanza in there, we can avoid a future Jon Schaeffer by preaching the importance of inclusion - not diversity, but inclusion - and in keeping lines of communication open even when those lines are difficult or hard to swallow.  Absent any of that, I know for me, I think just being kinder and more tolerant - TRULY tolerant, including of those for whom it's hard to muster any compassion or sympathy - is a start.  Stop with the name-calling, stop with the cancelling, stop with the divisiveness, stop with the marginalization; all those things that drive insecurity and isolation and which feed these chronic problems we're seeing more and more of.

These are the things we, as individuals, can do.  And to go back to what Eric was saying, a lot of this starts in your home.  That's what we can control and we (generally) need to be better at it.  It definitely does start at this level to want to strive to be better and support our children to also be better.  But that's not solving the problems we can't control outside our homes and kind of leaves me back to that hopelessness of not being able to solve this problem.

This whole quote pyramid 100%....

The way I myself see this is the term, "Tending your own garden".

If everyone were to "Tend their own Garden" and do what is best for them, in turn, it can lead to a better understanding of "The Other". Each ones own garden, has unique qualities that the other can also benefit from. It's up to you whether you want to be stingy with it or willing to share, and you and "The Other" both can benefit in each others unique qualities each garden possesses.

But also, People have their own ways to "Tend their own Gardens". So, who is one to say and demand how one "Tends their Garden"? So, rather than feel sad and hopelessness for what you can't control, just focus on your own garden. As long as you are happy, and your garden is producing the produce you enjoy and like, and no one is bothering or messing with the garden, that is all that one should be concerned and worried about. "Tend to your own garden, while 'The Other' tends to theirs".



I don't know how they can be so proud of winning with them odds. - Little Big Man

"We can't rewrite history. We can learn our own history, and share it with other people. While, we learn, from them, their history." -Me,Myself,I

Offline T-ski

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Re: Guns are Icky
« Reply #541 on: May 14, 2021, 09:34:59 AM »
I am not a gun person, have very limited knowledge in guns, yet work at a sporting goods store in central WI that sells firearms. There are times I am needed to assist in selling a firearm and I am authorized to do paperwork and do the background checks as needed. It is ridiculous how easy it is to buy a firearm.

If you donít think a reform is necessary in obtain a firearm let me tell you this story.

My wife and I decided to add a porch to the front of our house a few years ago. It wasnít a big porch, fit into a nice little corner, and didnít extend past any existing house lines. Our contractor went to city hall to obtain the permit to build and was told we werenít allowed to build until we had permission from the city to make sure no zoning laws were broken.

This is what we had to do....Put a public notice in the paper in case any neighbors objected against the porch and
state our case, in front of the city, the plans didnít violate zoning laws, which were completely different from the zoning laws that were in effect when the house was originally built in the 1940s.

We had to wait at least two weeks before we were allowed to build our porch.  TWO WEEKS.

I can have any Joe Blow come into my store, fill out a form in 10 minutes and leave with an AR-15, no questions asked.

I donít see how anyone can not see how broken the system is when it comes to obtaining any firearm.
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Offline Chino

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Re: Guns are Icky
« Reply #542 on: May 14, 2021, 09:37:20 AM »
I am not a gun person, have very limited knowledge in guns, yet work at a sporting goods store in central WI that sells firearms. There are times I am needed to assist in selling a firearm and I am authorized to do paperwork and do the background checks as needed. It is ridiculous how easy it is to buy a firearm.

If you donít think a reform is necessary in obtain a firearm let me tell you this story.

My wife and I decided to add a porch to the front of our house a few years ago. It wasnít a big porch, fit into a nice little corner, and didnít extend past any existing house lines. Our contractor went to city hall to obtain the permit to build and was told we werenít allowed to build until we had permission from the city to make sure no zoning laws were broken.

This is what we had to do....Put a public notice in the paper in case any neighbors objected against the porch and
state our case, in front of the city, the plans didnít violate zoning laws, which were completely different from the zoning laws that were in effect when the house was originally built in the 1940s.

We had to wait at least two weeks before we were allowed to build our porch.  TWO WEEKS.

I can have any Joe Blow come into my store, fill out a form in 10 minutes and leave with an AR-15, no questions asked.

I donít see how anyone can not see how broken the system is when it comes to obtaining any firearm.

It's too bad the founders didn't make an amendment for the right to install porches  :lol

Offline Stadler

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Re: Guns are Icky
« Reply #543 on: May 14, 2021, 01:29:12 PM »
I am not a gun person, have very limited knowledge in guns, yet work at a sporting goods store in central WI that sells firearms. There are times I am needed to assist in selling a firearm and I am authorized to do paperwork and do the background checks as needed. It is ridiculous how easy it is to buy a firearm.

If you donít think a reform is necessary in obtain a firearm let me tell you this story.

My wife and I decided to add a porch to the front of our house a few years ago. It wasnít a big porch, fit into a nice little corner, and didnít extend past any existing house lines. Our contractor went to city hall to obtain the permit to build and was told we werenít allowed to build until we had permission from the city to make sure no zoning laws were broken.

This is what we had to do....Put a public notice in the paper in case any neighbors objected against the porch and
state our case, in front of the city, the plans didnít violate zoning laws, which were completely different from the zoning laws that were in effect when the house was originally built in the 1940s.

We had to wait at least two weeks before we were allowed to build our porch.  TWO WEEKS.

I can have any Joe Blow come into my store, fill out a form in 10 minutes and leave with an AR-15, no questions asked.

I donít see how anyone can not see how broken the system is when it comes to obtaining any firearm.

I'm not looking to argue with you, but there are a LOT of variables there that make a difference.  Just because you had to wait two weeks to build your deck, and someone can get a gun in as little as 10 minutes aren't related in any tangible way.

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Re: Guns are Icky
« Reply #544 on: May 14, 2021, 09:01:48 PM »
I am not a gun person, have very limited knowledge in guns, yet work at a sporting goods store in central WI that sells firearms. There are times I am needed to assist in selling a firearm and I am authorized to do paperwork and do the background checks as needed. It is ridiculous how easy it is to buy a firearm.

If you donít think a reform is necessary in obtain a firearm let me tell you this story.

My wife and I decided to add a porch to the front of our house a few years ago. It wasnít a big porch, fit into a nice little corner, and didnít extend past any existing house lines. Our contractor went to city hall to obtain the permit to build and was told we werenít allowed to build until we had permission from the city to make sure no zoning laws were broken.

This is what we had to do....Put a public notice in the paper in case any neighbors objected against the porch and
state our case, in front of the city, the plans didnít violate zoning laws, which were completely different from the zoning laws that were in effect when the house was originally built in the 1940s.

We had to wait at least two weeks before we were allowed to build our porch.  TWO WEEKS.

I can have any Joe Blow come into my store, fill out a form in 10 minutes and leave with an AR-15, no questions asked.

I donít see how anyone can not see how broken the system is when it comes to obtaining any firearm.

I'm not looking to argue with you, but there are a LOT of variables there that make a difference.  Just because you had to wait two weeks to build your deck, and someone can get a gun in as little as 10 minutes aren't related in any tangible way.

You donít think itís odd to have to go through so many hoops to build a small porch yet all one has to do to purchase a firearm is fill out one or two forms and they are good to go?
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Offline Volante99

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Re: Guns are Icky
« Reply #545 on: May 16, 2021, 11:11:26 PM »

Despite the myth that these happen every day (and made more difficult by the competing definitions of these mass shootings) there have only been about 190 since 1966 (this is using the Washington Post criteria).  Crime generally - and firearm homicides specifically - have been decreasing since the 90's - even despite the widely noted statistics regarding guns - while that narrow slice of crimes that are considered "narcissism" crimes have not.  "Narcissism and social rejection were two risk factors that worked together to cause aggressive behavior [related to mass shootings]."   Let's unpack that:  guns supposedly encourage violence, but even with the growing number of guns, crime and homicides in general have been going DOWN.  That's exactly the OPPOSITE of "causation".

What we're seeing is NOT a function of guns. 

As far as I can tell gun ownership rates have either remained the same or decreased nationally.
Some of the major studies on gun violence look like that they actually need to do some voodoo math to even get estimates on historical gun ownership because we simply donít have the data. Hereís the thing; Iím willing to bet if you were to include only urban areas like New York and San Francisco youíd see ownership rates down dramatically over the last 40 years, but thatís a hunch. This touches on a big problem when drawing conclusions from a couple data points; America is a BIG place. Lots of factors. Itís kind of like making the leap of COVID restrictions; restrictions were tougher in California than South Dakota but California had higher death rates, therefore COVID restrictions are ineffective. We canít make that leap. (I donít even know if this is true or not, using it as an example).

We simply donít know what the landscape would be like without the gun proliferation we have in the country. We DO know guns are extremely effective at killing things; they are the preferred weapon for mass killings, and people who choose firearms for suicide are most often successful. Probably not a big leap in assuming they are also extremely effective at carrying out homicide. Interesting to note 73% of homicides in the US are from guns, compared to 39% in Canada and 4% in England. Again, kiiiind of calls into question sweeping statement like this is ďnot a function of gunsĒ. When we start talking about mental health and the family we canít just sweep away guns as a factor. Those issues relate to ALL violence and suicide, but when you throw a gun into the mix can we honestly say the equation doesnít change?
 
Mass shootings might not be super common but itís interesting to note 7 of the top 10 deadliest have all happened since 2007. As your source cited there have been about ~190 mass shootings since 1966 using the Washington Post criteria (4 or more people killed excluding the perp, not involving domestic violence or during the act of another crime). Seeeems like a narrow definition. Obviously if we start taking away the limitations the numbers go up substantially (and paint a different picture), but I digress...

Iíve touched on this before; Iím aware that this is a multifaceted issue and youíre very rarely going to find 1:1 direct causal relationships in any social science study but I think it would, at the very least, be in Americaís best interest to start doing away with the gun culture that permeates in our country, however the hell you do that. Start by doing away with old myths like guns=protection, education on the dangers, viewing them more as instruments of killing rather than ďfreedom toolsĒ. But hey, maybe thatís a silly pipe dream.

« Last Edit: May 16, 2021, 11:33:56 PM by Volante99 »

Offline Stadler

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Re: Guns are Icky
« Reply #546 on: May 17, 2021, 02:14:41 PM »
I am not a gun person, have very limited knowledge in guns, yet work at a sporting goods store in central WI that sells firearms. There are times I am needed to assist in selling a firearm and I am authorized to do paperwork and do the background checks as needed. It is ridiculous how easy it is to buy a firearm.

If you donít think a reform is necessary in obtain a firearm let me tell you this story.

My wife and I decided to add a porch to the front of our house a few years ago. It wasnít a big porch, fit into a nice little corner, and didnít extend past any existing house lines. Our contractor went to city hall to obtain the permit to build and was told we werenít allowed to build until we had permission from the city to make sure no zoning laws were broken.

This is what we had to do....Put a public notice in the paper in case any neighbors objected against the porch and
state our case, in front of the city, the plans didnít violate zoning laws, which were completely different from the zoning laws that were in effect when the house was originally built in the 1940s.

We had to wait at least two weeks before we were allowed to build our porch.  TWO WEEKS.

I can have any Joe Blow come into my store, fill out a form in 10 minutes and leave with an AR-15, no questions asked.

I donít see how anyone can not see how broken the system is when it comes to obtaining any firearm.

I'm not looking to argue with you, but there are a LOT of variables there that make a difference.  Just because you had to wait two weeks to build your deck, and someone can get a gun in as little as 10 minutes aren't related in any tangible way.

You donít think itís odd to have to go through so many hoops to build a small porch yet all one has to do to purchase a firearm is fill out one or two forms and they are good to go?

Not absolutely, no.   There's a lot in the details, though, and it depends what the forms are, and what the hoops are.  Some things in life CAN be short-cutted, and other things cannot.   That's not always reflective of complexity or severity.  My wife re-habbed her "frozen" shoulder for something like 8 months; a co-worker had a full, complete hip replacement and was home that afternoon. 

Offline El Barto

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Re: Guns are Icky
« Reply #547 on: May 20, 2021, 01:02:27 PM »
So I've been reconsidering so-called stand your ground laws. I like to think I'm a responsible gun-toter. I know people both online and IRL that I definitely consider responsible gun carriers, including Gary here. I also know some people who have no business being armed in public. A frequent distinction between the two groups is the demeanor being armed instills in people. Simply put, carrying a gun should encourage cowardice. If being armed fosters a sense of bravery, you're fucking doing it wrong. All other things being equal, if I'm given a choice between shooting somebody and running away like a little bitch, yeah, I'm turning mother's picture to the wall and getting out.1 It's simply better for everybody, especially me.

It seems to me that every time we hear about SYG laws, it's because somebody took the opposite approach. This asshole, who confronted somebody over a parking space, and shot her boyfriend when he defended her. Or people who wade into unruly situations, presumably because they have nothing better to do. Arizona statue guy and Kyle Rittenhouse are obvious examples. Certainly wannabe cop George Zimmerman. Without debating whether or not they acted in self defense, I think it's reasonable to say they shouldn't have fucking been in these situations in the first place, and in my opinion are exactly the sorts of people who shouldn't be allowed to carry in public. They weren't mollified by their weapons; they were emboldened.

Isn't this essentially what SYG encourages? Doesn't this let the worst sorts of gun owners essentially off the hook for their irresponsible decisions? I understand the underlying premise of SYG. People shouldn't be prosecuted because running away may have been an option. I think that's a problem with an easy solution, though. Exercise the appropriate discretion when charging people. Removing the ability to prosecute people who could have and should have avoided the situation doesn't sit real well with me.

And for what it's worth, the parking lot enforcer is serving 20 years for manslaughter, and rightly so. And yet, there were four previous encounters that demonstrated the pattern I'm on about. The tendency to provoke confrontations with people while being armed. Including a case a year earlier where he confronted somebody else over a parking space problem and allegedly brandished a gun. Again, exactly the sort of person who shouldn't be armed in public. I really don't know what the solution is, but I do know that perhaps trying to reinforce the idea that being armed is a responsibility would be a pretty good place to start, and I think these laws work in opposition to that. I know in his case, it was a hindrance to prosecuting him, and the smart money says that he gets sprung on appeal pretty soon because of it.

Eh, guess I just felt like ranting during lunch.

Anybody but Cool Chris get the 1 reference?
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Offline Cool Chris

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Re: Guns are Icky
« Reply #548 on: May 20, 2021, 06:52:02 PM »
Dammit I am saddened to say I had to look that one up.
"Nostalgia is just the ability to forget the things that sucked" - Nelson DeMille, 'Up Country'

Offline TAC

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Re: Guns are Icky
« Reply #549 on: May 20, 2021, 06:58:53 PM »
Bart, can't argue with any of that.
would have thought the same thing but seeing the OP was TAC i immediately thought Maiden or DT related
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Offline gmillerdrake

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Re: Guns are Icky
« Reply #550 on: May 21, 2021, 11:18:05 AM »
Simply put, carrying a gun should encourage cowardice. If being armed fosters a sense of bravery, you're fucking doing it wrong. All other things being equal, if I'm given a choice between shooting somebody and running away like a little bitch, yeah, I'm turning mother's picture to the wall and getting out.

Yep. Carrying a gun shouldn't provide you with some sort of vigilante 'pass' or desire to 'be the hero'. For me at least, simply put...I carry to protect my family. That's it. If my life or theirs are in imminent danger then that's when I'd imagine I'd use deadly force. In all other instances I'm looking for the path of least resistance to get them and myself to safety.
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Offline Cool Chris

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Re: Guns are Icky
« Reply #551 on: May 21, 2021, 09:32:42 PM »
Carrying a gun shouldn't provide you with some sort of vigilante 'pass' or desire to 'be the hero'. For me at least, simply put...I carry to protect my family. That's it. If my life or theirs are in imminent danger then that's when I'd imagine I'd use deadly force.

I am sure there are people, like mini-mart guy, who feel that being shoved equates to their life being "in imminent danger." What the heck kinda mentality is that to go around with, armed or otherwise?
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Offline Volante99

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Re: Guns are Icky
« Reply #552 on: May 22, 2021, 01:46:56 PM »


I am sure there are people, like mini-mart guy, who feel that being shoved equates to their life being "in imminent danger." What the heck kinda mentality is that to go around with, armed or otherwise?

Iíd put a lot of police officers in that category where the constant threat ďimminent dangerĒ is causing a lot of issues. The Kyle Rittenhouse case also comes to mind.

Iím probably going to get some heat for this and take it a step further...not only should we not associate guns with ďbraveryĒ, is their association with ďprotectionĒ even valid? Iíd really be curious on how the data shakes out in regards to using a firearm for protection or crime prevention vs use of suicide, accidental death, and homicide. Obviously, a lot of the former goes unreported, but Iím genuinely curious how the numbers shake out, especially when you take out those who use firearms for sporting purposes and isolate just for those who carry for protection, how does that change in rural areas vs urban areas, etc.

Offline El Barto

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Re: Guns are Icky
« Reply #553 on: May 22, 2021, 04:35:13 PM »
Carrying a gun shouldn't provide you with some sort of vigilante 'pass' or desire to 'be the hero'. For me at least, simply put...I carry to protect my family. That's it. If my life or theirs are in imminent danger then that's when I'd imagine I'd use deadly force.

I am sure there are people, like mini-mart guy, who feel that being shoved equates to their life being "in imminent danger." What the heck kinda mentality is that to go around with, armed or otherwise?
To be fair, being shoved can represent imminent danger. Years ago a guy was involved in a road rage situation on I35, not too far from where I work. The attacker ran up and tried to drag him out of his car. He determined, quite reasonably, IMO, that trying to find out if he could hold his own in a fight against his assailant on the side of the road while cars are zooming by at 40mph was not in his best interest, and he shot and killed the guy. I'm actually alright with that. Circumstances matter. Similarly, there was a freakout in a McD's a while back where one of the employees used a steel rod to beat some guy's brains out after he jumped the counter and began to assault somebody in the prep area. Same deal. You've got grills, deep fryers, ovens, steel pots and pans everywhere. The employee had no obligation to "be a man" and fight it out with this guy under those conditions. Again, circumstances matter.

Incidentally, an old acquaintance was an assistant manager of a Pizza Inn way back when. He told us once that the unofficial policy was that so long as a customer was on his side of the counter you treat him with respect. The instant he crosses into the store's side of the counter everybody grabs a pizza peel or a ladle and gets after it.  :lol

Parking lot guy in the video, though, was just a raging asshole looking to kill somebody.
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Offline El Barto

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Re: Guns are Icky
« Reply #554 on: May 22, 2021, 04:44:07 PM »

Iíd put a lot of police officers in that category where the constant threat ďimminent dangerĒ is causing a lot of issues. The Kyle Rittenhouse case also comes to mind.

Iím probably going to get some heat for this and take it a step further...not only should we not associate guns with ďbraveryĒ, is their association with ďprotectionĒ even valid? Iíd really be curious on how the data shakes out in regards to using a firearm for protection or crime prevention vs use of suicide, accidental death, and homicide. Obviously, a lot of the former goes unreported, but Iím genuinely curious how the numbers shake out, especially when you take out those who use firearms for sporting purposes and isolate just for those who carry for protection, how does that change in rural areas vs urban areas, etc.
If the number of "protection" instances is >1 then it's valid. Also, "using a firearm for protection" need not mean actually shooting an attacker. I'd suggest that for every bad guy shot by a good guy, there were plenty more that ran away at the mere threat of being shot. Pointing a gun at somebody has a pretty dramatic effect. A warning shot, if that's your inclination, more so. Youtube is full of videos of guys running out of a house leaving behind a yellow trail after the homeowner took a shot or two at them. Then you've got to also factor in the idea that any person may or may not be armed as a legitimate deterrent. If I decide that me and Honey Bunny are going to start knocking over diners, I'm going to consider the vigilante factor pretty high down here in Texas.
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Offline Volante99

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Re: Guns are Icky
« Reply #555 on: May 22, 2021, 07:45:48 PM »

If the number of "protection" instances is >1 then it's valid.

Is it? I could use a risk behavior like smoking cigarettes. If I chain smoke all day but can use one against a purse snatcher in the middle of the act does that make cigarettes valid for protection? Yes, extreme example but I think your logic

Quote
Also, "using a firearm for protection" need not mean actually shooting an attacker. I'd suggest that for every bad guy shot by a good guy, there were plenty more that ran away at the mere threat of being shot. Pointing a gun at somebody has a pretty dramatic- effect. A warning shot, if that's your inclination, more so. Youtube is full of videos of guys running out of a house leaving behind a yellow trail after the homeowner took a shot or two at them.

Thatís a fair point. Again, Iíd be VERY curious on how the numbers shake out. Theres been some self-reporting surveys over the years which can be...problematic. We DO know ďjustifiable homicideĒ, depending on the year, averages about 250-350 per year, by non-law enforcement private citizens. Iím assume a large percentage of that is firearm related. Compare that to the 30-40k gun deaths that happen on average (including suicide). We also average 500-650 accidental gun deaths- once you extend that to injuries itís several thousand. But I concede, we really donít know how many lives guns save every year and how that weighs out.


Quote
Then you've got to also factor in the idea that any person may or may not be armed as a legitimate deterrent. If I decide that me and Honey Bunny are going to start knocking over diners, I'm going to consider the vigilante factor pretty high down here in Texas.

Is it? Do simple gun ownership rates alone deter criminals from initiating crimes on a large scale? Are a lot of criminals saying, ďIím going to knock over diners in Delaware instead of TexasĒ. Honest question, I dunno.

Offline El Barto

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Re: Guns are Icky
« Reply #556 on: May 23, 2021, 11:57:36 AM »

If the number of "protection" instances is >1 then it's valid.

Is it? I could use a risk behavior like smoking cigarettes. If I chain smoke all day but can use one against a purse snatcher in the middle of the act does that make cigarettes valid for protection? Yes, extreme example but I think your logic
I'd say that particular cigarette was a valid for of protection in that rather bizarre case. Would you deny him that smoke if it turned out to be the best chance he had at defending himself?

"Help, please! He's charging at me with a knife and the only chance I have is to burn his eyeball with a cigarette before he stabs me!"

"I'm sorry, but the surgeon general has determined that smoking is harmful to your health."



Quote
Quote
Also, "using a firearm for protection" need not mean actually shooting an attacker. I'd suggest that for every bad guy shot by a good guy, there were plenty more that ran away at the mere threat of being shot. Pointing a gun at somebody has a pretty dramatic- effect. A warning shot, if that's your inclination, more so. Youtube is full of videos of guys running out of a house leaving behind a yellow trail after the homeowner took a shot or two at them.

Thatís a fair point. Again, Iíd be VERY curious on how the numbers shake out. Theres been some self-reporting surveys over the years which can be...problematic. We DO know ďjustifiable homicideĒ, depending on the year, averages about 250-350 per year, by non-law enforcement private citizens. Iím assume a large percentage of that is firearm related. Compare that to the 30-40k gun deaths that happen on average (including suicide). We also average 500-650 accidental gun deaths- once you extend that to injuries itís several thousand. But I concede, we really donít know how many lives guns save every year and how that weighs out.
Unfortunately, there are no reasonable statistics regarding any facet of shootings. Thanks to the Dickey Amendment the government isn't allowed to fund studies into gun violence, and the ad hoc studies other agencies have done have been spectacularly flawed. There's also the problem that there really aren't any requirements for reporting, particularly cases that don't involve somebody getting killed. That 250-350/yr number is just as likely to be 25-30 or 2,500-3,500 per year. And again, it doesn't include the number of times a gun was used for self defense without being fired, or fired into the ground.


Quote

Quote
Then you've got to also factor in the idea that any person may or may not be armed as a legitimate deterrent. If I decide that me and Honey Bunny are going to start knocking over diners, I'm going to consider the vigilante factor pretty high down here in Texas.

Is it? Do simple gun ownership rates alone deter criminals from initiating crimes on a large scale? Are a lot of criminals saying, ďIím going to knock over diners in Delaware instead of TexasĒ. Honest question, I dunno.
Equally honest question: Wouldn't you? I would.
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Offline Volante99

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Re: Guns are Icky
« Reply #557 on: May 23, 2021, 01:21:17 PM »
I think unlike you and me, criminals, especially the type who are knocking over diners. There isnít much evidence that the death penalty is a deterrent. I get that guns are a more tangible, immediate threat, but I need some data (ie does crime go up after states enact tighter gun restrictions, etc,)

One point of correction, we DO know ďjustifiable homicideĒ numbers average around 250-350 per year. But yes, we donít have any reliable statistics on crime prevention outside of that.

Offline El Barto

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Re: Guns are Icky
« Reply #558 on: May 23, 2021, 05:22:03 PM »
One point of correction, we DO know ďjustifiable homicideĒ numbers average around 250-350 per year. But yes, we donít have any reliable statistics on crime prevention outside of that.
Not really. When you posted that I did a little digging around to find the source, and it seems that the ~300/yr number comes from the UCR. For some things the UCR is a valuable tool, but it's got more than its fair share of problems. For one thing, it relies on police reporting, which is not mandatory. Some departments are better than others at dealing with UCR reporting. The bigger problem is qualification, though. Police reports occur before adjudication. For example, if some gal blows away her ex-husband, it'll most likely go down as one of their 10,000 annual murders, and the subsequent determination of self defense won't factor into it. Beyond that, the UCR definition of justifiable homicide is fairly narrow. It requires that the homicide takes place during the commission of a separate felony.

Justifiable  homicide,  by  definition,  occurs  in  conjunction  with  other  offenses. Therefore, the crime being committed when the justifiable homicide took place must be reported as a separate offense. Reporting agencies should take care to ensure that they do not classify a killing as justifiable or excusable solely on the claims of self-defense or on the action of a coroner, prosecutor, grand jury, or court.

Is Johnny necessarily going to file a report for a burglary that was prevented when the would-be burglar barely made it through the door before getting ventilated? What about noted scumbag George Zimmerman? Despite everything wrong with what he did, he did act in self defense but in a manner that wouldn't have met the UCR's criteria for justifiable homicide for lack of a secondary crime. Again, that's a tick in the murder column. I suspect there are a quite a few justifiable homicides that don't make the cut, either because they're hard to define under the FBI's reporting requirements so they're classified as something else, they don't fit within the FBI's reporting requirements so they're disregarded, or they simply don't get reported.

Also, this only includes homicides. Assailants who survived won't be included in those numbers. And of course, this doesn't include the instances where no shots, or only warning shots, were fired.

Like I sad, statistics really don't factor into this very well at all, because for the most part, they're just not reliable.
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Offline Volante99

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Re: Guns are Icky
« Reply #559 on: May 24, 2021, 12:41:26 AM »
When we say things like statistics donít factor into this well, I think weíre letting the perfect be the enemy of the good.

Yes the UCR is dependent on reporting, but they also factor individual circumstances and relationship between the parties/victim. So there is SOME thought going into these numbers. I get it, not perfect, but when we throw numbers out like ďjust as likely to be 2,500-3500 justifiable homicidesĒ weíd have to assume that 25-35% of all homicides were vigilante justice. Thatís a pretty BIG claim.

And yes, I think Iíve acknowledged in my previous 2 replies weíre both in agreement that ďjustifiableĒ homicide includes only the dead criminals. There is survey data that shows firearms are used as a response (by the victims) to about ~1.1% of all violent crimes, including off-duty police officers. Again, we have the issue of self-reporting and I full acknowledge there are problems in a lot of the statistics.

But I would argue that maybe we can look at things in totality and start seeing the brushstrokes, the pattern of a bigger picture of whatís going on here. No matter what the outcome I think itís in our best interest in society to be questioning the utility of firearms in relation to the harm they cause.
I would just say maybe, just maybe that value is exaggerated.