Author Topic: The Chicken or The Egg ?  (Read 2683 times)

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Offline Kattelox

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Re: The Chicken or The Egg ?
« Reply #35 on: December 06, 2017, 11:15:27 AM »
Well, yeah, a monkey is not going to change into an elephant even over millions of years. But I would do some reading on speciation (look up allopatric and sympatric speciation). It's fascinating stuff, it's what you're hinting at with your bird-beak example, and I guarantee there is a LOT of interesting stuff to learn about. Check it out sometime. :)

Perhaps, but they share a common ancestor 105 million years ago.  :)

That's true! SCIENCE!  :biggrin:
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Offline Stadler

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Re: The Chicken or The Egg ?
« Reply #36 on: December 06, 2017, 11:18:41 AM »
Well, yeah, a monkey is not going to change into an elephant even over millions of years. But I would do some reading on speciation (look up allopatric and sympatric speciation). It's fascinating stuff, it's what you're hinting at with your bird-beak example, and I guarantee there is a LOT of interesting stuff to learn about. Check it out sometime. :)

Perhaps, but they share a common ancestor 105 million years ago.  :)

That's true! SCIENCE!  :biggrin:

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Re: The Chicken or The Egg ?
« Reply #37 on: December 06, 2017, 11:21:51 AM »
Arch, I'm not sure if you are taking the position of a traditional creationist but I would say the intelligent design theory might satisfy your questions.  A "creator" that chose to use evolution as a means bring things about.  It works for me.

 If God did create the earth and all the landscapes, insects, plant and tree life, fish, and animals & humans,, he obviously put a lot of thought into it

We eat and drink through the same tube we use to breathe.

Nope, there are two separate tubes (esophagus and trachea), with two separate destinations (stomach and lungs).  The trachea is connected to esophagus and protected by the epiglottis.


Online Chino

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Re: The Chicken or The Egg ?
« Reply #38 on: December 06, 2017, 11:25:26 AM »
Arch, I'm not sure if you are taking the position of a traditional creationist but I would say the intelligent design theory might satisfy your questions.  A "creator" that chose to use evolution as a means bring things about.  It works for me.

 If God did create the earth and all the landscapes, insects, plant and tree life, fish, and animals & humans,, he obviously put a lot of thought into it

We eat and drink through the same tube we use to breathe.

Nope, there are two separate tubes (esophagus and trachea), with two separate destinations (stomach and lungs).  The trachea is connected to esophagus and protected by the epiglottis.


So roughly 5000 people choking to death per year has nothing to do with where those two systems meet?

Offline 73109

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Re: The Chicken or The Egg ?
« Reply #39 on: December 06, 2017, 03:00:26 PM »
Arch, I'm not sure if you are taking the position of a traditional creationist but I would say the intelligent design theory might satisfy your questions.  A "creator" that chose to use evolution as a means bring things about.  It works for me.

 If God did create the earth and all the landscapes, insects, plant and tree life, fish, and animals & humans,, he obviously put a lot of thought into it

We eat and drink through the same tube we use to breathe.

Nope, there are two separate tubes (esophagus and trachea), with two separate destinations (stomach and lungs).  The trachea is connected to esophagus and protected by the epiglottis.


So roughly 5000 people choking to death per year has nothing to do with where those two systems meet?

Your puny human mind has failed to consider the FACT that God, in his infinite wisdom, gave us the free will to choke to death on our food. You fool.

Offline Dave_Manchester

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Re: The Chicken or The Egg ?
« Reply #40 on: December 06, 2017, 03:30:48 PM »
If God did create the earth and all the landscapes, insects, plant and tree life, fish, and animals & humans,, he obviously put a lot of thought into it and it took much longer than 6 literal days..

I want to ask you about this. Why do you think it had to take longer than 6 'earth' days? If time as we understand it is not time as it pertains to God, then why couldn't he just as likely have created the universe in 6 'earth' nanoseconds for example, if he is not necessarily bound by physical laws? What is the relevance of his 'putting a lot of thought into it'? Wouldn't the thinking part of the process have taken place before the creation of the universe, i.e before the creation of the physical laws which dictate our time?

And also, do you think there are implications for God's perfection (as some believe him to be) if it required of him time and a lot of thought to create the world? If God could conceivably have created the universe earlier if he'd thought harder, what then of his perfection, or at least the famous definition of God as "that than which nothing greater can be thought" (Anselm's ontological argument for the existence of God)? By which I mean, if you are proposing - as you seemed to - a God which needs (the important part is needs) a lot of time to think things through and make his universe, I can imagine a God which doesn't need to do that. I can imagine a God who can snap his fingers and within half a nanosecond have an absolutely perfect universe made, without the requirement of evolutionary 'improvement' which demands millions of 'earth' years. So can something whose efforts require more or less time depending on their difficulty be said to be omnipotent? The line I clipped from your post raised these questions to me.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2017, 04:50:46 PM by Dave_Manchester »
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Offline Architeuthis

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Re: The Chicken or The Egg ?
« Reply #41 on: December 06, 2017, 06:09:07 PM »
Dave_Manchester,,  I see your point, being that he's almighty and limitless in power and wisdom. I guess God could make things happen rather quickly if he wanted. The scriptures indicate that God has always existed and never had a beginning, which is too hard for us to comprehend.  He therefore has an eternity of wisdom and knowledge yet he has shared a small portion of it with intelligent creation.  The scriptures also say "perfect is his activities". 
God has had a very loooong time to create the physical universe being that he's always been around, so what's the hurry??  Just because he might take some time creating something, it doesn't make him imperfect.
Think about the spirit creatures (Angels if you may). The scriptures say that they shouted in applause when God created the heavens and the earth. In other words, they were eye-witnesses of the creation account and evidently saw the details that went into God's handy-work and were in awe!   This may sound far fetched to many, but with God, anything is possible..
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Offline portnoy311

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Re: The Chicken or The Egg ?
« Reply #42 on: December 06, 2017, 06:23:24 PM »
Theory in scientific sense does not mean the same thing as in the layman's vernacular. It's not "just a theory" any more than "gravity is just a theory."

Offline Orbert

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Re: The Chicken or The Egg ?
« Reply #43 on: December 06, 2017, 06:50:11 PM »
True.  In fact, it's almost the opposite.  In science, there are no facts, only theories.  Atomic theory, theory of gravity, and yes, theory of evolution, are all the most commonly accepted explanations for what we have observed.  As more observations are made and more data is gathered, theories can be adjusted or even completely abandoned.  But right now, the prevailing theory is the best we have.

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Re: The Chicken or The Egg ?
« Reply #44 on: December 06, 2017, 10:39:03 PM »
Theory definition- a supposition or a system of ideas intended to explain something, especially one based on general principles independent of the thing to be explained.


Scientific theory definition-  a well-substantiated explanation of some aspect of the natural world, based on a body of facts that have been repeatedly confirmed through observation and experiment.


Really couldn't get two more polar opposites.
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Offline Architeuthis

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Re: The Chicken or The Egg ?
« Reply #45 on: December 07, 2017, 01:16:36 AM »
What about "Illumination Theory" ??    :)
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Offline 73109

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Re: The Chicken or The Egg ?
« Reply #46 on: December 09, 2017, 12:13:04 PM »
Not much use arguing with hard-line creationists buuuuut...

http://www.cnn.com/2016/12/08/health/dinosaur-tail-trapped-in-amber-trnd/index.html

Offline bosk1

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Re: The Chicken or The Egg ?
« Reply #47 on: December 09, 2017, 02:45:52 PM »
Not much use arguing with hard-line creationists buuuuut...

http://www.cnn.com/2016/12/08/health/dinosaur-tail-trapped-in-amber-trnd/index.html

Not really sure what that has to do with somehow undermining creationist theory.  But cool find nonetheless!  :D
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Offline portnoy311

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Re: The Chicken or The Egg ?
« Reply #48 on: December 10, 2017, 07:36:32 AM »
Not much use arguing with hard-line creationists buuuuut...

http://www.cnn.com/2016/12/08/health/dinosaur-tail-trapped-in-amber-trnd/index.html

Not really sure what that has to do with somehow undermining creationist theory.  But cool find nonetheless!  :D

I feel like calling it "creationist theory" is purposefully mischievous as it is in no way a theory the same way the theory of evolution is, and further obfuscates an already misunderstood word.

Offline bosk1

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Re: The Chicken or The Egg ?
« Reply #49 on: December 11, 2017, 09:17:54 AM »
Not much use arguing with hard-line creationists buuuuut...

http://www.cnn.com/2016/12/08/health/dinosaur-tail-trapped-in-amber-trnd/index.html

Not really sure what that has to do with somehow undermining creationist theory.  But cool find nonetheless!  :D

I feel like calling it "creationist theory" is purposefully mischievous as it is in no way a theory the same way the theory of evolution is, and further obfuscates an already misunderstood word.

Your error in that regard is forgivable.
"The Supreme Court of the United States has descended from the disciplined legal reasoning of John Marshall and Joseph Story to the mystical aphorisms of the fortune cookie."

Offline portnoy311

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Re: The Chicken or The Egg ?
« Reply #50 on: December 11, 2017, 11:14:19 AM »
I don't know what you're getting at other than refusing to acknowledge my point.

Offline bosk1

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Re: The Chicken or The Egg ?
« Reply #51 on: December 11, 2017, 11:20:14 AM »
There's nothing to acknowledge.  I used theory in the correct context and was not using the lay meaning of the word, so you were mistaken in the point you raised.
"The Supreme Court of the United States has descended from the disciplined legal reasoning of John Marshall and Joseph Story to the mystical aphorisms of the fortune cookie."

Offline portnoy311

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Re: The Chicken or The Egg ?
« Reply #52 on: December 11, 2017, 11:25:57 AM »
That could not possibly be further from the truth. There is no formal scientific "creationist theory."

Offline XJDenton

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Re: The Chicken or The Egg ?
« Reply #53 on: December 12, 2017, 02:19:45 AM »
There's an easy test for that. What predictions does creationist theory make?

If it can't make predictions, it's not a scientific theory.

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Re: The Chicken or The Egg ?
« Reply #54 on: December 12, 2017, 04:38:17 AM »
It is simply a religious belief.  Calling it "theory" may not be "purposefully mischievous", but you have to wonder why one would even call it that.
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Re: The Chicken or The Egg ?
« Reply #55 on: December 12, 2017, 05:57:27 AM »
There's an easy test for that. What predictions does creationist theory make?

If it can't make predictions, it's not a scientific theory.

There are plenty of predictions, aren't there? They just aren't testable.

It is predicted that;
- When you die you continue living for all of eternity with your creator
- Praying to your creator can influence the material world around you
- Unless a guy in a robe dunks your baby in water, your child will carry sin with it until death because two people were once convinced by a talking snake to eat magical fruit
- etc.
« Last Edit: December 12, 2017, 06:09:13 AM by Chino »

Offline bosk1

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Re: The Chicken or The Egg ?
« Reply #56 on: December 12, 2017, 05:10:04 PM »
There's an easy test for that. What predictions does creationist theory make?
I will leave that to you to look up, if you are interested. 

If it can't make predictions, it's not a scientific theory.
Yes, that is a correct (partial) description of what a scientific "theory" is.

There's an easy test for that. What predictions does creationist theory make?

If it can't make predictions, it's not a scientific theory.

There are plenty of predictions, aren't there? They just aren't testable.

It is predicted that;
- When you die you continue living for all of eternity with your creator
- Praying to your creator can influence the material world around you
- Unless a guy in a robe dunks your baby in water, your child will carry sin with it until death because two people were once convinced by a talking snake to eat magical fruit
- etc.

...and this is NOT a correct description.

But anyhow, I'm not here to debate whether anyone happens to agree or disagree with creation theory.  My question was to the relevance of 73019's post.  It's a cool article.  But I'm having trouble understanding how it supports the point I think he was trying to make.
"The Supreme Court of the United States has descended from the disciplined legal reasoning of John Marshall and Joseph Story to the mystical aphorisms of the fortune cookie."

Offline portnoy311

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Re: The Chicken or The Egg ?
« Reply #57 on: December 12, 2017, 05:18:37 PM »
Theory definition- a supposition or a system of ideas intended to explain something, especially one based on general principles independent of the thing to be explained.


Scientific theory definition-  a well-substantiated explanation of some aspect of the natural world, based on a body of facts that have been repeatedly confirmed through observation and experiment.


Bosk, how in the world was anything Chino said incorrect in what a theory is?

Offline 73109

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Re: The Chicken or The Egg ?
« Reply #58 on: December 12, 2017, 05:55:40 PM »
I posted it because of OP's claim that he had trouble believing that birds were the descendants of dinosaurs. The article gave solid evidence otherwise. Unless, of course, one wants to argue that God, in his infinite wisdom, just so happened to make both dinos and birds have very similar DNA, be the only organisms to have feathers, etc.

Offline bosk1

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Re: The Chicken or The Egg ?
« Reply #59 on: December 13, 2017, 10:41:42 AM »
I posted it because of OP's claim that he had trouble believing that birds were the descendants of dinosaurs. The article gave solid evidence otherwise. Unless, of course, one wants to argue that God, in his infinite wisdom, just so happened to make both dinos and birds have very similar DNA, be the only organisms to have feathers, etc.

Oh, okay.  I see what you are getting at now.  Thanks for the clarification.  As an aside, the only thing I think I disagree with is your second sentence.  I don't think the article takes a stance or proves that birds were the descendants of dinosaurs.  The article posits that the discovery "contains bone fragments and feathers, adding to mounting fossil evidence that many dinosaurs sported primitive plumage rather than scales."  Of course, from that and other evidence, you could conclude that birds were the descendants of dinosaurs.  One could also reasonably simply conclude that some birds might have been the descendants of some dinosaurs.  Or, more directly supported by the evidence, one could reasonably simply conclude that some birds have very much in common, moreso than previously thought, with some dinosaurs.  Again, not so much disputing the evidence itself, but merely the conclusions one draws from it, or the certainty of said conclusions. 

But in any case, thanks for the clarification.  That was helpful.
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Offline Stadler

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Re: The Chicken or The Egg ?
« Reply #60 on: December 13, 2017, 01:36:23 PM »
Just because two entities have similar traits does not mean that one derives from the other, or that they are even related. I'm not an expert, but I believe that under "evolution theory", this is called "convergent evolution". 

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Re: The Chicken or The Egg ?
« Reply #61 on: December 13, 2017, 01:39:45 PM »
Just because two entities have similar traits does not mean that one derives from the other, or that they are even related. I'm not an expert, but I believe that under "evolution theory", this is called "convergent evolution".

As I explained earlier in the thread:

"This is known as convergence in the evolutionary world. Two creatures arriving a similar design because it's what's best given the variables of nature, despite being different species. Look at dolphins vs sharks. Sharks have been in the water their entire existence, and dolphins evolved from a four legged land creature. Both ended up arriving at very similar designs despite evolving completely independent of one another. It's speculated that because of this, if we were to find an alien planet with advanced sea life, and assuming they rely on speed to not die/reproduce, it's very likely they'd look similar to Earth's fish. "

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Re: The Chicken or The Egg ?
« Reply #62 on: December 13, 2017, 01:46:35 PM »
And while convergence demonstrates (sharks vs dolphins) that two creatures may not share a similar ancestor, they still kind of do. If you went back far enough you would be able to find the point in time where a species split, allowing one lineage to lead to sharks, and the other that lead to dolphins.


You can find interactive versions of the image below. It's a categorized family tree of 2.3M species based on their genomes.



Offline Architeuthis

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Re: The Chicken or The Egg ?
« Reply #63 on: December 13, 2017, 07:25:08 PM »
Just because two entities have similar traits does not mean that one derives from the other, or that they are even related. I'm not an expert, but I believe that under "evolution theory", this is called "convergent evolution".

As I explained earlier in the thread:

"This is known as convergence in the evolutionary world. Two creatures arriving a similar design because it's what's best given the variables of nature, despite being different species. Look at dolphins vs sharks. Sharks have been in the water their entire existence, and dolphins evolved from a four legged land creature. Both ended up arriving at very similar designs despite evolving completely independent of one another. It's speculated that because of this, if we were to find an alien planet with advanced sea life, and assuming they rely on speed to not die/reproduce, it's very likely they'd look similar to Earth's fish. "
Dolphins evolved from a four legged land creature?  I never heard of that, is there proof of that?  I believe dolphins have always been dolphins, whales have always been whales, Sharks have always been sharks.
 Sharks and dolphins are completely unrelated. Dolphins are mammals and sharks are fish. Dolphins and whales are warm blooded, fish are cold blooded. Dolphins and whales also have a much more complex brain and are very social creatures..  It's almost like they are stewards of the sea kind of like humans are stewards of the land. Lol
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Online eric42434224

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Re: The Chicken or The Egg ?
« Reply #64 on: December 13, 2017, 07:39:13 PM »
Well science is basically saying dolphins/whales/sharks have always been dolphins/whales/sharks too.  They were just something else before they became dolphins/whales/sharks.
And if you go back far enough, we are all related.
As far as "stewards" LOL.....it is pretty clear that humans are pretty shitty stewards of any environment on Earth.  Dolphins would probably do a better job.
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Offline Architeuthis

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Re: The Chicken or The Egg ?
« Reply #65 on: December 13, 2017, 07:48:45 PM »
Lol, seems that way.  :rollin
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Offline Adami

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Re: The Chicken or The Egg ?
« Reply #66 on: December 13, 2017, 07:50:08 PM »
As far as "stewards" LOL.....it is pretty clear that humans are pretty shitty stewards of any environment on Earth.  Dolphins would probably do a better job.

Nope! Selfish bastards, given the chance they'd immediately ditch us and go back to their home planet, leaving us with nothing but a cheeky song.
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Offline Architeuthis

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Re: The Chicken or The Egg ?
« Reply #67 on: December 13, 2017, 07:58:21 PM »
I think their patience would be wearing fin....  :yarr
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Offline portnoy311

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Re: The Chicken or The Egg ?
« Reply #68 on: December 14, 2017, 01:19:42 AM »
Just because two entities have similar traits does not mean that one derives from the other, or that they are even related. I'm not an expert, but I believe that under "evolution theory", this is called "convergent evolution".

As I explained earlier in the thread:

"This is known as convergence in the evolutionary world. Two creatures arriving a similar design because it's what's best given the variables of nature, despite being different species. Look at dolphins vs sharks. Sharks have been in the water their entire existence, and dolphins evolved from a four legged land creature. Both ended up arriving at very similar designs despite evolving completely independent of one another. It's speculated that because of this, if we were to find an alien planet with advanced sea life, and assuming they rely on speed to not die/reproduce, it's very likely they'd look similar to Earth's fish. "
Dolphins evolved from a four legged land creature?  I never heard of that, is there proof of that?  I believe dolphins have always been dolphins, whales have always been whales, Sharks have always been sharks.
 Sharks and dolphins are completely unrelated. Dolphins are mammals and sharks are fish. Dolphins and whales are warm blooded, fish are cold blooded. Dolphins and whales also have a much more complex brain and are very social creatures..  It's almost like they are stewards of the sea kind of like humans are stewards of the land. Lol

You can believe whatever you want, but note that scientists do not choose what to believe, but rather follow evidence. Yes, there is a large amount of evidence of aquatic mammals evolving from 4 legged animals. Chino can no doubt give more specifics if he's interested in doing so. But (beyond the obvious of being underwater creatures that breathe air), every whale and dolphin shows vestigial remnants of hind legs. On top of the fossil record showing early whales with feet.

Offline XJDenton

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Re: The Chicken or The Egg ?
« Reply #69 on: December 14, 2017, 08:16:10 AM »
There's an easy test for that. What predictions does creationist theory make?
I will leave that to you to look up, if you are interested. 

Oh come on Bosk, you can give me one at least, surely? :p

There are plenty of predictions, aren't there? They just aren't testable.

An important distinction, and one I should have made. Thanks for the clarification. Science requires verifiable/testable predictions.