Author Topic: Richard Chycki says he's currently mixing a DT live album **DO NOT POST LINKS**  (Read 46475 times)

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Offline cramx3

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Different people want different things from a live album.  I personally prefer absolutely no overdubs or edits at all.  I want a document of the event exactly as it happened.  I wasn't there, and listening to the live album is the next best thing.

Some people feel that a live album should represent the "ideal" performance.  Every note, sung or played, should be perfect.  Edit together the best performances from different nights, and overdub the rest.  Basically a studio-perfect album but processed to simulate a live recording.  The justification is that (a) some fans want this idealized performance and (b) some bands want to present this idealized performance.

Most people are somewhere in between, but honestly, that still baffles me.  If it's edited at all, it's not live.

I think some bands just aren't that great in terms of putting out a consistent live performance to be comfortable with a full release if it's not close to perfect.  Maybe some bands just shouldn't be making live albums if it's going to essentially be redone in the studio.

Offline Peter Mc

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My issue is that, if they are going to release a live album/dvd, the band have a responsibility to ensure that it is a quality product as people are paying their hard earned money to buy it.  I've no desire to spend £20.00 on a bluray or live album that is full of fuck ups that I will never watch again.  If they have to do some studio trickery to fix it then so be it.  If the people recording it have messed up JLB vocals then it's not fair to JLB to release it unless they are going to allow him to fix the vocals.  I like live albums for the alternate versions of songs, extended solos, energy from the crowd etc.  Doesn't have to an exact document of the show on that night.  I still happily listen to Live At The Marquee even though the vocals were re-done in the studio by all accounts (although that is not ideally what I would want).  Apart from OIALT and CIM, I have thoroughly enjoyed the other DT live releases although the looped crowd noise on LALP does sour me a little on that one, you can't unhear it once you've heard it.

Don't get me wrong, it can go too far.  I remember waiting for a Bon Jovi live album for about 20 years and, when they finally released it, it was full of overdubs and sounded nothing like a live album.  I had loads of great Bon Jovi bootlegs and they were a great live band but the official live album was a pile of shite.  Live albums should still sound live and don't have to be perfect (the other DT live albums are not perfect) but they shouldn't sound awful either.

Offline mikeyd23

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Pretty sure Jay Baskin was the guitar tech for Score  (and Jake Bowen (Periphery and JPs nephew) was the keyboard tech)

Hah, that's awesome, I didn't know Jake was a tech for DT.

Offline theanalogkid7

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I don't mind overdubs or fixes to a live release so long as they aren't totally obvious.  I remember on score there was a part where JLB took the mic away from his face but you could still clearly hear him holding out a note.  It's a little thing for sure but it kind of takes you out the of moment.

That said, the minimal footage of this particular show I've seen looks so good I really don't care if they do any fixing or not.
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Offline Orbert

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My issue is that, if they are going to release a live album/dvd, the band have a responsibility to ensure that it is a quality product as people are paying their hard earned money to buy it.  I've no desire to spend £20.00 on a bluray or live album that is full of fuck ups that I will never watch again.

I totally understand that.  I wouldn't want to spend money on a live release and find out it's full of fuck ups.  But in general, I don't listen to bands that fuck up that much or that badly.  DT has long been known for how artfully they reproduce things live.  (Maybe that has changed?)  Minor things like one spot where the guitarist messed something up or the vocals come in late, I'd actually rather hear that.  It reminds me that it's live.

I like live albums for the alternate versions of songs, extended solos, energy from the crowd etc.  Doesn't have to an exact document of the show on that night.

Same here.  I guess an "exact document" isn't really necessary and perhaps is going a bit far.  But again, how bad can the real thing be?  If the band is simply not capable of playing a concert without fucking up so badly that they're embarrassed to release it, then maybe they shouldn't be releasing live material.


Most people here are younger than me, much younger.  My concert-going days are basically behind me.  I love live music and live performances of pretty much anything, but I can't justify spending a week's pay just to go, only to end up next to some idiot singing badly with every song or behind some asshole holding a cell phone in front of him (and me) all night.  So live albums and concert videos are where I'm at these days.  But shit like hearing vocals when the mike is nowhere near the singer's mouth, or hearing anything that contradicts what I'm seeing on screen, kills it for me, takes me completely out of it.  For me, the authenticity of the performance far, far outweighs everything sounding perfect.

Offline gmillerdrake

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Watched the majority of the concert again last night and I'll say this.....I'm SO friggin' glad that I apparently have horrible judgment or bad ears or something because I think it's pretty solid. Are there parts where JLB's vocals are definitely tweaked? Sure. But it's nowhere near as bad as it's being made out to be. The band mix sounds great (love JMX's mix/presence) and the performances are great.

i like the fact I can enjoy it for what it is and not be compelled to nit pick it to death.
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Online Kattelox

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Is it really nit picking if it legitimately bothers some people? Seems like there's a fair number of people on both sides of the aisle here with respect to a particular part of the band.
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Offline cramx3

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Is it really nit picking if it legitimately bothers some people? Seems like there's a fair number of people on both sides of the aisle here with respect to a particular part of the band.

I dont know.  For me, my ears suck.  I'm not a musician and my ears don't pick up a lot of things others notice.  I found the vocals to be fine on this from what I've heard, but not the greatest and a few times a bit odd, but not like bad to ruin or bother me.  But I have no idea what it sounds like to a trained ear that can pick up these things.  Is it so noticeable that it ruins it?  Maybe so. 

I think the DT fan base has a lot more musically minded people than most bands and their fan base can pick up on these things much more than the average band fan base.

Offline dreamrafa

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Finally got a decent HD version of this... Audio is pretty standard, not bad at all but could be better... That 2013 fan club cd sounds much better than this for example...

Also i think the vocals are as good as it gets, there is no way to improving this...

Video editing is gold, although i spotted 2 edition mistakes, i think is the best edited show in DT history, you dont get to miss any JP or JR solo, all the camera shots are perfect, i wish DT had more shows like this out there...

Overall band performance is also impressive, totally spot on...

Does this worth an official release?, dont know, everybody have already seen the show so there is no the surprise factor... Also it really needs an audio remix and get those 2 editing errors fixed... Im guessing an official release would include extra stuff like a documentary etc etc... But at this point i would prefer they to release something we haven't watched yet...

This also could be a very good official bootleg, or be included as an extra in some box for future releases, but for it self i dont think it would deserve a release...

Offline dreamrafa

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My issue is that, if they are going to release a live album/dvd, the band have a responsibility to ensure that it is a quality product as people are paying their hard earned money to buy it.  I've no desire to spend £20.00 on a bluray or live album that is full of fuck ups that I will never watch again.  If they have to do some studio trickery to fix it then so be it.  If the people recording it have messed up JLB vocals then it's not fair to JLB to release it unless they are going to allow him to fix the vocals.  I like live albums for the alternate versions of songs, extended solos, energy from the crowd etc.  Doesn't have to an exact document of the show on that night.  I still happily listen to Live At The Marquee even though the vocals were re-done in the studio by all accounts (although that is not ideally what I would want).  Apart from OIALT and CIM, I have thoroughly enjoyed the other DT live releases although the looped crowd noise on LALP does sour me a little on that one, you can't unhear it once you've heard it.

Don't get me wrong, it can go too far.  I remember waiting for a Bon Jovi live album for about 20 years and, when they finally released it, it was full of overdubs and sounded nothing like a live album.  I had loads of great Bon Jovi bootlegs and they were a great live band but the official live album was a pile of shite.  Live albums should still sound live and don't have to be perfect (the other DT live albums are not perfect) but they shouldn't sound awful either.

And thats exactly the reason i love bootlegs so much... Live album are way to much over edited, pretty much all bands do the same thing (with some exceptions)...

DT early live album where pretty solid, but the latest live release have been pretty disappointing to me...

Offline rumborak

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That's how it is for me. If I actually feel like watching a DT live release (which admittedly doesn't happen all that often) I gravitate towards earlier releases. And it's not because James is stronger vocally or whatever, I think it's rather that later DT DVDs got very "sterile" for lack of a better word. They are flawless renditions of the songs, but they miss that "band feel".
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Offline Chino

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That's how it is for me. If I actually feel like watching a DT live release (which admittedly doesn't happen all that often) I gravitate towards earlier releases. And it's not because James is stronger vocally or whatever, I think it's rather that later DT DVDs got very "sterile" for lack of a better word. They are flawless renditions of the songs, but they miss that "band feel".

I thought DT did a pretty good job with that sound through SCORE. The releases after that felt very over-produced.

Offline Peter Mc

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My issue is that, if they are going to release a live album/dvd, the band have a responsibility to ensure that it is a quality product as people are paying their hard earned money to buy it.  I've no desire to spend £20.00 on a bluray or live album that is full of fuck ups that I will never watch again.

I totally understand that.  I wouldn't want to spend money on a live release and find out it's full of fuck ups.  But in general, I don't listen to bands that fuck up that much or that badly.  DT has long been known for how artfully they reproduce things live.  (Maybe that has changed?)  Minor things like one spot where the guitarist messed something up or the vocals come in late, I'd actually rather hear that.  It reminds me that it's live.

I like live albums for the alternate versions of songs, extended solos, energy from the crowd etc.  Doesn't have to an exact document of the show on that night.

Same here.  I guess an "exact document" isn't really necessary and perhaps is going a bit far.  But again, how bad can the real thing be?  If the band is simply not capable of playing a concert without fucking up so badly that they're embarrassed to release it, then maybe they shouldn't be releasing live material.


Most people here are younger than me, much younger.  My concert-going days are basically behind me.  I love live music and live performances of pretty much anything, but I can't justify spending a week's pay just to go, only to end up next to some idiot singing badly with every song or behind some asshole holding a cell phone in front of him (and me) all night.  So live albums and concert videos are where I'm at these days.  But shit like hearing vocals when the mike is nowhere near the singer's mouth, or hearing anything that contradicts what I'm seeing on screen, kills it for me, takes me completely out of it.  For me, the authenticity of the performance far, far outweighs everything sounding perfect.

Agree with all this, I have no issue with those type of minor things that you mentioned and I should say that I have not seen the leaked material from the tv broadcast so I don't know how bad the vocals sound.  I know some people don't like his vocals on the original Budokan album/dvd but that sounds perfectly good to me.  As I keep mentioning though OIALT and CIM were basically a waste of money for me as the vocals sound so bad that I will never listen to them again.

I also agree that, if a band cannot get a good live recording then don't release it and I said that earlier, I'd rather they did not release it if James sounds terrible on it for whatever reason.  If you are going to though, you can't throw James under the bus just because the rest of the band sound great, if there are technical reasons for him sounding off.  I will say again that it has always been my experience that DT (including James) have sounded superb live in person, I'm always amazed at how they are able to reproduce this stuff live.  To release a poor sounding live dvd would not be representative of what they usually sound like and may harm their reputation as a brilliant live band.  The issue they also have now is, if they do fix it, lots of people have seen the original version and will start putting up side by side comparisons.  Certainly, as well, the sound and pictures should sync up if you're going to release as a dvd, don't want to see one thing and hear another, that does ruin the magic a little.  I've never noticed this on any of the other DT dvds though.

Offline gmillerdrake

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Is it really nit picking if it legitimately bothers some people? Seems like there's a fair number of people on both sides of the aisle here with respect to a particular part of the band.

‘Nit Pick’ may have been the wrong choice of words there. I was really just trying to say what Cram ended up saying. Although I listen to a ton of music and enjoy the heck out of it....my ears just aren’t as bothered by the tweaks as it seems to bother others.....and I’m glad for that as I’ve enjoyed near all the live releases from DT.

CiM being the exception. That may be their worst one. It had a very ‘thrown together’ feel.
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Offline Pebsie

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On the subject of fixing mistakes: Haken recently released a """"live"""" album that is so over produced and overdubbed that there's really no point in listening to it over the album (ofc the dvd is stellar and that is still worth watching).

Some things should be fixed to make the experience better but live should be live. You expect some mistakes and some audio issues, that's what gives it the charm. Neal Morse seems to execute this perfectly with his live albums and DT have some great examples too (LSFNY and OIALT come to mind).

Recently it's been a little too overdubbed and there's a trend of that occurring a lot in newer music releases.
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I think when it comes to fixing mistakes they should be done if there are technical difficulties. Part of the charm of a live album is feeling what was captured in the moment, otherwise dub some crowd noise over the album versions of songs and call it day.

If you're playing is such a mess than maybe try pasting songs across multiple recordings, or don't release live material at all.

Offline noxon

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I think when it comes to fixing mistakes they should be done if there are technical difficulties. Part of the charm of a live album is feeling what was captured in the moment, otherwise dub some crowd noise over the album versions of songs and call it day.

If you're playing is such a mess than maybe try pasting songs across multiple recordings, or don't release live material at all.

Well, sometimes bands add fake crowd noise to actual live dvds too :P (looking at you, luna park - damn that lady that screams every 10 seconds in the audience loop ;))
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Offline Anguyen92

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^^ Was there any fake crowd noise added in Breaking the Fourth Wall?  I hope not, because I found that crowd noise there to be much more genuine than in Luna Park (which is odd since I was always under the impression that Argentinian crowds, in general, are very passionate, but I felt the crowd reactions was lacking in that DVD).

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To this day, I wonder what happened with the audience in Luna Park. It looks like nobody fed them for a week. Which is truly a shame, because Argentinian crowds have a reputation that can only be surpassed by Brazil or Chile. They should have filmed that DVD in Santiago.

Offline CrimsonSunrise

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I remember an interview with Dio where he talked about dubbed live albums.  He LOVED Rainbow On Stage cause it was a pretty straight forward live capture.  On the flip side he hated Black Sabbath's Live Evil because it was so overproduced.  I'm kinda torn, I love both of those albums so I guess that means I don't seem to mind the over production. :lol

Offline erwinrafael

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^^ Was there any fake crowd noise added in Breaking the Fourth Wall?  I hope not, because I found that crowd noise there to be much more genuine than in Luna Park (which is odd since I was always under the impression that Argentinian crowds, in general, are very passionate, but I felt the crowd reactions was lacking in that DVD).

There is fake crowd noise in BTFW but I won't tell you where because it would be hard to unhear when you hear it.

Offline Orbert

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"Ignorance is bliss."  For a long time, I didn't understand, or misunderstood, that expression.  I thought it meant that it's easier to be happy if you're stupid.  Or something like that.  And I supposed that's a valid interpretation.

Relevance?  Now that I think about it, it's not the fact that some live albums are overdubbed, edited, or otherwise "fixed".  It's that I know about it.  If no one ever told me that some of my favorite live albums had massive edits and overdubs, I'd be happy as hell.  It's knowing that the lead vocals were overdubbed months later in the studio, or the guitar solo was actually edited from a different night, or anything like that, that's messes with my enjoyment of it.

And it can vary, too.  I grew up blissfully ignorant regarding Kiss Alive!  It seemed to me an incredible, perfectly-recorded live performance, and I suppose it helped that it was recorded in my home town, at the same hall where I once saw Rush.  Somehow knowing that it was basically a studio creation doesn't hamper my enjoyment.  It still sounds incredible, and when I listen to it, I'm 12 years old again listening to it in my buddy Jim's basement.

But it's basically the opposite with King Crimson's USA album.  David Cross has two blistering, amazing violin solos on that album.  The credits mention "remix assistance" by Eddie Jobson on those two tracks, but at the time I didn't know who Eddie Jobson was and didn't know what it meant.  Turns out Eddie played those solos; Fripp added them later, in the studio.  Now, when I listen to those same tracks, they sound exactly the same of course, but somehow knowing that those amazing solos were not actually played by the band I'm supposedly listening to kinda ruins it for me.  Which is kinda dumb, I suppose.  I loved them before, the only difference is that I know that that's not what was played that night.

Then you have outright Frankenstein works like Frank Zappa often did.  Basic tracks recorded live, studio stuff added later, and I don't have a quote from him on the subject, but if I did, I'm sure it would be something like "If it sounds good, what the fuck difference does it make?"  Heck, Frank took different parts from different songs, sometimes individual parts from different songs, and put them together to create entirely new compositions.  My first Zappa album and still one of my faves, Sheik Yerbouti, is one of these.  Mostly "studio-sounding", but with parts of songs that clearly were recorded live, and final track ends with Frank, obviously live, introducing the band, and you hear the audience, and the album ends feeling like a live album just ended.  Maybe that works for me because Frank was very up-front about it.  Every track has detailed liner notes, and has stuff like "Overdubs: Lots" and "Overdubs: None".

So... sometimes ignorance is indeed bliss I guess.

Offline Peter Mc

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To this day, I wonder what happened with the audience in Luna Park. It looks like nobody fed them for a week. Which is truly a shame, because Argentinian crowds have a reputation that can only be surpassed by Brazil or Chile. They should have filmed that DVD in Santiago.

Was it the audience or was their a huge screw up with the recording. I remember it came out soooo late, like ridiculously late. I seem to remember some comment maybe from JP’s wife saying something like if it wasn’t for JP, there wouldn’t have been any audio or something like that. I think that was a huge fuck up from start to finish. It’s not a well shot DVD at all although there are still some good versions of the songs. The canned crowd noise though is so badly done though and ridiculously obvious.

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I remember an interview with Dio where he talked about dubbed live albums.  He LOVED Rainbow On Stage cause it was a pretty straight forward live capture.  On the flip side he hated Black Sabbath's Live Evil because it was so overproduced.  I'm kinda torn, I love both of those albums so I guess that means I don't seem to mind the over production. :lol

I have never warmed to Live Evil. Ever.


^^ Was there any fake crowd noise added in Breaking the Fourth Wall?  I hope not, because I found that crowd noise there to be much more genuine than in Luna Park (which is odd since I was always under the impression that Argentinian crowds, in general, are very passionate, but I felt the crowd reactions was lacking in that DVD).
Holy crap, just listen to The Enemy Inside. I mean, Boston has always been pretty lively for DT. I don't know if the crowd noise is canned or actual, but it seems like it is definitely dropped in here and there. Honestly, I was there, and I really can't listen to it.
would have thought the same thing but seeing the OP was TAC i immediately thought Maiden or DT related
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Offline TH1RT3EN

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^^ Was there any fake crowd noise added in Breaking the Fourth Wall?  I hope not, because I found that crowd noise there to be much more genuine than in Luna Park (which is odd since I was always under the impression that Argentinian crowds, in general, are very passionate, but I felt the crowd reactions was lacking in that DVD).

There actually was. Not as in your face as in Luna Park (which sounds more like a "live in studio" thing, in my opinion), but unfortunately still fake.

I think when it comes to fixing mistakes they should be done if there are technical difficulties. Part of the charm of a live album is feeling what was captured in the moment, otherwise dub some crowd noise over the album versions of songs and call it day.

If you're playing is such a mess than maybe try pasting songs across multiple recordings, or don't release live material at all.

Well, sometimes bands add fake crowd noise to actual live dvds too :P (looking at you, luna park - damn that lady that screams every 10 seconds in the audience loop ;))

If you're referring to that female laugh in the left speaker, isn't that actually from Breaking the Fourth Wall?

Offline Evai

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The biggest problem with looped crowd FX is when there's whistling. And when you notice it once it's hard to ignore it
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Offline SystematicThought

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When I saw my first concert (Van Halen 2004), obviously I had only ever heard a live album, namely Van Halen's Live: Right Here Right Now. The looped crowd noise made me believe that people are always clapping and cheering at concerts, so I stood there like a dunce the whole concert clapping.
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Offline Anguyen92

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When I saw my first concert (Van Halen 2004), obviously I had only ever heard a live album, namely Van Halen's Live: Right Here Right Now. The looped crowd noise made me believe that people are always clapping and cheering at concerts, so I stood there like a dunce the whole concert clapping.

I mean, personally, I feel like that's way better than standing there like a zombie with your phone out and not really taking in all of that sweet electricity and atmosphere in.

Offline cramx3

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The biggest problem with looped crowd FX is when there's whistling. And when you notice it once it's hard to ignore it

I can't be as bad as Rush's 2112 on All The World's A Stage!
Terry Brown would have you believe that everyone spontaneously whistles every time the band stops for a beat:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bPpdZSOxp6k
(...about 40 seconds in)

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Sounds like they're playing to a flock of birds.
would have thought the same thing but seeing the OP was TAC i immediately thought Maiden or DT related
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Offline JayOctavarium

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The biggest problem with looped crowd FX is when there's whistling. And when you notice it once it's hard to ignore it

I can't be as bad as Rush's 2112 on All The World's A Stage!
Terry Brown would have you believe that everyone spontaneously whistles every time the band stops for a beat:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bPpdZSOxp6k
(...about 40 seconds in)


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I just don't understand what they were trying to achieve with any part of the song, either individually or as a whole. You know what? It's the Platypus of Dream Theater songs. That bill doesn't go with that tail, or that strange little furry body, or those webbed feet, and oh god why does it have venomous spurs!? And then you find out it lays eggs too. The difference is that the Platypus is somehow functional despite being a crazy mishmash or leftover animal pieces

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Offline gzarruk

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I could be wrong on this, but wasn't the Sax solo on OIALT (TAMP maybe?) recorded in the studio and just added to the song later?
It sounds like, "ruk, ruk, ruk, ruk, ruk." Instead of the more pleasing kick drum sound of, "gzarruk, gzarruk, gzarruk, gzarruk."

Offline sfam2112

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I could be wrong on this, but wasn't the Sax solo on OIALT (TAMP maybe?) recorded in the studio and just added to the song later?

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Offline Cool Chris

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That just sounds... awful.

But that reminds me I have never listened to OiaLT all the way through, which is weird considering DT has been my favorite band since I&W and I've bought everything they've ever released (except CiM).
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